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Author Topic: Faked / imaginary projects  (Read 11944 times)

Offline lantinian

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Re: Faked / imaginary projects
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2008, 10:45:18 am »
I wonder how we are going to look into popular topics such as the design of PAKFA. It is "Secret" and its "Project", yet practically most of what we have in the forum is fan made.
How do you justify whether a picture related to that aircraft is worthy of this forum? Was it not the designers of the Russian MFI that got mislead by the false artist conceptions of the ATF from the 80's? Yet, we do our best to collect those, however inaccurate they were.

What I am getting is that it will be wrong to make an educated guess in this forum, however educated, if it is not official allready. This sounds kind of counterproductive.
Granted, discusing past projects is easy. Whoever information is going to be available is already there. We just have to gig it up. Maybe, restore it a little (to the best of our knowledge)

But how about present future projects and trends that we know little about. Do we simply ignore them, or just quote official sources and refuse to read between the lines.

Unbuilt Projects....hmmm. F-19 Stealth Fighter..... ??? very Popular tread. Does it belong to the "What If "forum? Hell, NO!

How do you define unbuilt? Not entered service, perhaps? Or, not passed the drawing stage? Or, officially endorsed/denied misleading artist concept or rumor?

Secret projects by definition are things that have not been acknowledged publicly. Like the Aurora spy plane. However if we try putting up more pictures of that we risk doing exactly what more people imply we should not do.

I personally look at this site whenever I need an information and opinion by other aviation gurus like me. Not people looking to prove they are right and everyone else is wrong( like in some other popular aviation forums). Its not so much about the pictures or the information, its about people that know what they are talking about. People that just like to know more and are not afraid to be corrected.

I am not against "the what if" projects. Hell, I have a couple. On the other hand I fully support the notion that every forum member has personal responsibility to do several things:

1. Create meaningful and insightful topics in their relevant section only after first searching the site for similarly information.
2. Add material, question and comments to existing topics that is to ones best understanding, relevant to those topics.

If everybody abides by those kind of rules, I things that we will early find what we need, being a fantasy concept or a unknown secret project without getting in each other ways.
I get really frustrated when I see people with asking questions and posting information that has nothing to do with the that topic. Yet, no one has complained about the just material in every topic. So as long as its not a fantasy picture but talk its OK to be posted?

At the end of the day, we all try to put the pieces together. Whether it sketches from old books, or rumors on the internet. I believe we are all interested in coming up with the truth about the matter first and sharing it with everyone else. Whether its the Awesome secret projects - bombers book or is the amazing variety of Pakfa concepts by Paraley, its all exiting and equally not going to get into service ;)

Or Maybe it has or it will be.
The details are somewhere in the forum.


We have to shape the future or others will do it for us.....Cdr. Ivanova, Babylon 5

Offline Hoo-2b-2day

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Re: Faked / imaginary projects
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2008, 05:36:27 am »
It was this particular discussion that encourage me to join this forum. I am impressed with the desire of so many of the contributors to keep the forum within the bounds of reality. The internet unfortunatelly allows any-ones fantasies to take on it's own life, an example being the German H44 battleship design study. This design study was only engenering calulation and related dcoumentation - there were never any drawing made relating to the H44. There was a drawing made of the H39 design scaled up to the dimentions considered for the H44 to give a visual perspective of the expected size required and this has now become THE H44 design which, in same other forums, Germany fully intended to build (even though it was too big for any German harbour and could not have sailed in the shallows sea's around the German coast). Fantasy become possibility then probability, moves to could have been then to should have been and in a few cases takes on a reality of it's own.

Too few people understand the whole design develpement process with any complex piece of equipment and that a design study is an answer to a question and more often than not the answer will be " It wont work/do the task required". Many people cannot understand that the vast majority of deign studies that relate to military equipment whether ships, tanks, aircraft or missiles are simply considering the various factor that will contribute to a design process.

Also too few can accept that many design studies, espescilally in the pre-computer days did not include plans but were often a written submission consititing mainly of enginererring calculations relating to performance, size and expected costs. They search for drawingand/or plans so when a fantasy design appears on the net claiming to be the wanted item it is too often taken as the truth.

Here's another experience with lack of understanding of the design development process, In a discussion forum that is not open to the general populace I got into a debate with a person who had the idea tha Germany could have defeated the USSR in 1941 if only they had enough Tigers and Panther available at the start of Barbarossa. I pointed out that these two tanks where the result of experience gained after the attack on the USSR (notably the Panther) where apon several people jumped in to augue that even if Germany had not invaded the USSR they still would have built the Tiger and Panther tanks. The pont that Germany has not considered anything like the Panther until the T-34 was confronted could not be accepted by this group, to them the Panther and tiger were inevitable regardless of the experience of the German forces before Barbarossa and should have been built earlier.

But back to the main topic I feel this forum will better served by minimising fake, fantasy and own designs as far as possible.There is more than enough guenuine unbuilt project to fill this forum for decades to come.

Offline Bodmas

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Re: Faked / imaginary projects
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2009, 06:50:04 pm »
As a trained draughstman and self-taught artist with a background in model-making - and extensive experience with Photoshop (as well as few other image editing programmes) - i would suggest that any "Fake" or "Fantasy" Projects should be relegated to clearly defined Threads [Such as the What If Forum]. In my youth, i found it deeply frustrating to be unable to find accurate and reliable information for my model-making. Equally i could, presently, quite easily generate a "real" photograph of a "Wunderwaffen" using Photoshop within a few hours [make that minutes...]. i realise that most of the plans laid down on Drawing-Boards NEVER come to physical fruition.This is exemplified by the life of my favourite Artist, Leonardo Da Vinci - who barely finished anything; and yet was "well ahead of his time"
"Caveat Emptor", as the Law says; and it would seem to me that that is what most of the contributors to this Forum desire to stick to
« Last Edit: February 20, 2009, 09:07:18 pm by Bodmas »

Offline XP67_Moonbat

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Re: Faked / imaginary projects
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2010, 11:17:22 am »
In God we trust, all others we monitor. :-p

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Faked / imaginary projects
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2010, 03:37:40 pm »
Yeah. I know the one... Brilliant stuff, though extremely deceitful to anyone who doesn't know better...