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Author Topic: The Man in the High Castle  (Read 2926 times)

Offline Rhinocrates

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The Man in the High Castle
« on: July 21, 2018, 07:47:50 pm »
The Man in the High Castle, Season 3 has a release date: October 5.



Of interest to forum members would be the designers' projections of 1960s Nazi and Imperial Japanese equipment. As a bonus, some might be reminded of the TV series, The Time Tunnel... Anyway, we have a Yamato-class battleship under the Golden Gate and a Kamov-like helicopter with Japanese markings (presumably in this universe it's a Mitsubishi).

My background is in architecture, so I was quite fascinated to see the rendering of Speer's Germania and the Volkshalle last season.
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Offline Michel Van

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Re: The Man in the High Castle
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2018, 05:46:21 am »
To be honest, i HATE stories were Nazi won WW2 and become dominant World power for next Tausend years

But i have to admit that Phillip K Dick Novel and Amazon do very good Worldbuilding here.
Producer Ridley Scott and his team dig deep in archives to found Hardware that Match the Story


Like German Supersonic Airliner, looks like Concorde, who real Aerodynamic shape was made by German engineers, Johanna Weber and Dietrich Küchemann 


or ALWEG monorail (yes, Axel Lennart Wenner-Gren is Swedish, but his company is german)
« Last Edit: January 07, 2019, 12:03:31 am by Michel Van »
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Offline uk 75

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Re: The Man in the High Castle
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2018, 01:39:16 pm »
Albert Speer's designs have inspired architects in some unusual places. Does this church in the English city of Milton Keynes have a slight air of a mini Volkshalle?

Offline uk 75

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Re: The Man in the High Castle
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2018, 01:43:29 pm »
Michel
Thank you for pointing me to the French Jour J series of alternate histories some years ago.
I am not persuaded by most Nazi Japan worlds of tomorrow, though the film and book of Fatherland by Robert Harris does make a good exception.

Offline Rhinocrates

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Re: The Man in the High Castle
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2018, 03:49:47 pm »
A major influence on Speer was the French architect, Étienne-Louis Boullée. The Cenotaph for Sir Isaac Newton leads clearly to the Volkshalle and was itself inspired by the tomb of Augustus. Boullée though did intend his designs as theoretical exercises rather than actual plans and it can be argued that the clean, geometric simplicity of his work and advocated in his writing had some influence on modernism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89tienne-Louis_Boull%C3%A9e

Leon Krier, a modern neoclassical architect, has written a book on Speer's oeuvre, including proposals for super-wide gauge trains. http://www.monacellipress.com/book/?isbn=9781580933544 As Minister of War Production and Armaments, Speer is significant to a lot of the discussion on this forum of course, but this offers a look into the other half of his career.

I agree that most stories of a Nazi victory in WWII are pretty awful, facile things fetishising the aesthetics alone. Harris' Fatherland and PKD's original novel do depict the soul-corrupting atmosphere of such a regime and its crimes.
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Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: The Man in the High Castle
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2018, 05:14:55 pm »

I agree that most stories of a Nazi victory in WWII are pretty awful, facile things fetishising the aesthetics alone.

I suspect that "aesthetics" is just about the sole interesting thing about "Nazis win." Because the Nazis were the rough equivalents of the Imperial Japanese, and apart from some Japanese nationalists, there really doesn't seem to be a whole lot of literary interest in "Japan wins WWII" alternate history... perhaps because the Japanese were, aesthetically, not very interesting. And the Soviets under Stalins were nearly indistinguishable from the Nazis in terms of evil and wackiness, and not far off in terms of policy, and there's very little interest in "USSR conquers Europe in 1946" alternate history, so far as I can tell. Quite possibly because the Soviets looked like they wore potato sacks.

The Nazis also had the "occult" thing going for them, which makes them interesting Because Reasons. Of course, how much of it is "The Nazis were into the occult, so they're interesting," and how much of it is "the Nazis were interesting, so let's exaggerate their occult goofiness," I can't say. But there is a lot of literature/comic books/movies where the Nazis slap together a portal to Hell or invoke some demons or some such; the Soviets and Japanese seem to have been incapable of that.
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Offline Deltafan

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Re: The Man in the High Castle
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2018, 03:34:35 am »
Like German Supersonic Airliner, looks like Concorde, who real Aerodynamic shape was made by German engineers, Johanna Weber and Dietrich Küchemann 
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CI3Ikr8WwAQG0fk.jpg
Well, at a time when the De Havilland Comet 1 had never flown (and crashed because of square windows), were the square windows compatible with a supersonic aircraft ? ???

OK, it's a fiction ::)


Offline galgot

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Re: The Man in the High Castle
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2018, 04:21:43 am »
Very interesting topic. I've watched "The Man in the High Castle" show and enjoyed it (not as much as some other shows tho). But still can't get away that "bad taste" feeling when seeing swastikas every two seconds. They tend to use a lot the trick of "lets have a lot of handsome SS offizers in Ugo Boss uniforms, and with matters of conscience "… which makes the watching a bit disgusting after some time. I believe general nazi thugs where much less "aesthetic" than that. A good example being the one played by Harvey Keitel in the movie "the Grey Zone", fat, depressed and alcoholic… I know it depicted a camp under-officer, not a high ranking bastard, but I prefer to have that kind of image of a nazi than a handsome guy in pretty uniform, find it more realistic.
Worst film I saw using nazi "aesthetic" just for the sake of it was "Iron Sky", completely stupid, and not even funny.

About the occult thing, it was also used in the game "Return to Castle Wolfenstein".

btw, Don't find the nazi sst very well done too...
And using a Ka-32 as a Japanese helo in a alternative universe, well... that is cheap. I suppose buying a all done Ka-32 3d model was easier than imagining a late 40s -early 50s Japanese designed helo.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2018, 04:36:36 am by galgot »

Offline pometablava

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Re: The Man in the High Castle
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2018, 06:49:28 am »
"Fat, depressed and alcoholic officer" is a realistic description for someone who suffers from combat stress. A high ranking officer from a triomphant empire obsessed with racial supremacy can't be nothing but handsome.

About the Japanese fleet entering San Francisco, it can be seen interesting details in the carrier: shape of the flight deck and the jets of unknown identity. The Yamato class and the cruisers, however,  show no modernizations like an enhanced electronics suite. Anyway, the artists have made a nice and realistic job. Updated Yamato class, angled deck Taiho or post Taiho classes, USN fighters profiles disguised in Kaigun markings: recreating hardware for that alternative reality could be a topic for our friends from whatifmodelers. BTW, does anyone the year where the action takes place?

I've seen the trailer many times and I feel impressed. The nuclear test is disturbing.

In the last years alternative reality is a recurrent argument for screen writers and I celebrate it.

Scott has offered interesting ideas here. A Soviet Europe idea is a really disturbing one.
Should we open an alternative realities topic?

Offline kaiserd

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Re: The Man in the High Castle
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2018, 06:58:13 am »
I watched the first session then bailed.
While visually and theoretically interesting (the opening credits for example should be seen) dramatically it was threading water with few interesting characters/ actors to latch onto during the dull narrative (some notable exceptions such as Tagawa and Sewell, but just not enough).

Recent BBC series SS-GB that covers similar ground suffered similar issues.

Offline galgot

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Re: The Man in the High Castle
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2018, 07:39:03 am »
"Fat, depressed and alcoholic officer" is a realistic description for someone who suffers from combat stress. A high ranking officer from a triomphant empire obsessed with racial supremacy can't be nothing but handsome.
...

That Fat, depressed and alcoholic officer in "The grey Zone" is not at the front but in a concentration camp.
As for triomphant empire obsessed with racial supremacy, even at their height of victory, say after they took power or in 1940-41, I hardly found Himmler/Georing/Hitler/Hess/Geobbels and co very handsome... :) I find they insisted too much on that in the show.

Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: The Man in the High Castle
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2018, 09:07:15 am »
"Fat, depressed and alcoholic officer" is a realistic description for someone who suffers from combat stress. A high ranking officer from a triomphant empire obsessed with racial supremacy can't be nothing but handsome.

My understanding is that when Herman Goering was a young war hero just after WWI, he was considered quite handsome by the German ladies. Pain from injuries and subsequent chemical dependence upon painkillers led to him becoming less so.

If you look at Nazi propaganda films, there are two types of Nazis shown: high ranking officials, who looked like, well, schmoes; and "idealized" Nazis, who looked like they came from Central Casting. The specific individuals running the show are going to look like whatever they're going to look like, but when it comes time to fill out the PR ranks, you go for the visual ideals.


Quote
In the last years alternative reality is a recurrent argument for screen writers and I celebrate it.

Alternate history has been around for a while. A popular one is "the South wins the Civil War." For an alternate history to be interesting, it has to have important differences (not "what if Trump won ten extra votes in South Carolina"), and the easiest way to do that is to flip the outcome of a war. Since by definition the good guys generally win wars, the result will usually be an alternate history where the *bad* guys win a war.

Note: Alternate history was part of at least two episode sof the original Star Trek series back in the sixties, so it's been out there for a good long while.

Quote
A Soviet Europe idea is a really disturbing one.

One easy way to get a Soviet Europe: Send Deadpool back in time to whack Baby Hitler. No Hitler, no Nazis (as a meaningful, successful force in politics). No Nazis, the German Communists (may) win hearts and minds and elections. Germany goes commie, you'll either have Commie Germany tangling with Commie Russia, or you'll have Commie Germany absorbed into the USSR. Either way, it's bad for Europe, and by extension the rest of the world. Maybe the USA goes commie after the Depression, in which case humanity is pretty well doomed. Or the USA and Commie Europe *eventually* get into a shooting match, but chances are without nukes. This would be a meatgrinder far beyond both WWI and WWII. So... hurray for Hitler, I guess?
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Offline uk 75

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Re: The Man in the High Castle
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2018, 10:46:28 am »
It is worth remembering that Philip K Dick's book has our reality as the alternative to the nightmare of a Nazi and Imperial Japan partition of the USA.

For all the fantasies that can be built around the Nazi paper plans for Berlin or the Sci Fi Wunderwaffen, the reality was that the Allies, including the Soviet Union, had the stuff and people it took to win.  In the Man in the High Castle, the Spitfire, the B17, the T34 tank, and the citizen soldiery would be dazzling the readers of the "alternate history".  We have the luxury of imagining the "bad" guys winning because they didn't.

Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: The Man in the High Castle
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2018, 12:49:06 pm »
It is worth remembering that Philip K Dick's book has our reality as the alternative to the nightmare of a Nazi and Imperial Japan partition of the USA.

It's been a few decades, but IIRC, the alternate history book written in TMITHC was sort of a *third* reality. It was one where the Allies won, but it was very different from ours.
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Offline Rhinocrates

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Re: The Man in the High Castle
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2018, 04:14:06 pm »
It is worth remembering that Philip K Dick's book has our reality as the alternative to the nightmare of a Nazi and Imperial Japan partition of the USA.

It's been a few decades, but IIRC, the alternate history book written in TMITHC was sort of a *third* reality. It was one where the Allies won, but it was very different from ours.

Yes, the book represents a different "reality" and it is a speculative book, not movies, meaning that it's entirely a production of his imagination and not evidence of some sideways time-travel. At the end of the novel Mr Tagomi is briefly transported to our real timeline, though there's none of the family interaction seen in the TV series.
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Offline Graham1973

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Re: The Man in the High Castle
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2018, 05:18:02 pm »
It is worth remembering that Philip K Dick's book has our reality as the alternative to the nightmare of a Nazi and Imperial Japan partition of the USA.

It's been a few decades, but IIRC, the alternate history book written in TMITHC was sort of a *third* reality. It was one where the Allies won, but it was very different from ours.

Yes it is, someone on DeviantArts called QuantumBranching made an attempt at mapping it out in 2015, how much of what they created came from Dick and how much is their own speculation I have no idea.

https://www.deviantart.com/quantumbranching/art/The-Grasshopper-Lies-Heavy-523255247

Offline starviking

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Re: The Man in the High Castle
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2018, 07:06:00 pm »

One easy way to get a Soviet Europe: Send Deadpool back in time to whack Baby Hitler. No Hitler, no Nazis (as a meaningful, successful force in politics). No Nazis, the German Communists (may) win hearts and minds and elections. Germany goes commie, you'll either have Commie Germany tangling with Commie Russia, or you'll have Commie Germany absorbed into the USSR. Either way, it's bad for Europe, and by extension the rest of the world. Maybe the USA goes commie after the Depression, in which case humanity is pretty well doomed. Or the USA and Commie Europe *eventually* get into a shooting match, but chances are without nukes. This would be a meatgrinder far beyond both WWI and WWII. So... hurray for Hitler, I guess?

Which was kinda like the backstory(?) for Norman Spinrad's "The Iron Dream" - a book written by Hitler after he emigrates to the States after WWI. The world in which the book is "written" has the Soviets controlling a large swathe of the world.

Offline Graham1973

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Re: The Man in the High Castle
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2018, 09:41:23 pm »
"Fat, depressed and alcoholic officer" is a realistic description for someone who suffers from combat stress. A high ranking officer from a triomphant empire obsessed with racial supremacy can't be nothing but handsome.

About the Japanese fleet entering San Francisco, it can be seen interesting details in the carrier: shape of the flight deck and the jets of unknown identity. The Yamato class and the cruisers, however,  show no modernizations like an enhanced electronics suite. Anyway, the artists have made a nice and realistic job. Updated Yamato class, angled deck Taiho or post Taiho classes, USN fighters profiles disguised in Kaigun markings: recreating hardware for that alternative reality could be a topic for our friends from whatifmodelers. BTW, does anyone the year where the action takes place?

I've seen the trailer many times and I feel impressed. The nuclear test is disturbing.

The PKD novel is set in 1962. Watching the trailer (My current bandwidth prevents me from watching the series itself, so I'm hoping it will be released in an offline form.) I get the feeling that there are a couple of other stories mixed in there as well, 'Sam Hall' a short story by Poul Anderson and James Hogan's 'The Proteus Operation'.

As to the nuclear test, well the choice of lyrics didn't help. I will also add as a student of such things, Monument Valley is the wrong place. Everyone who carried out atmospheric nuclear testing (America, Soviet Russia, United Kingdom, France China (Peoples Republic)) all picked locations that had wide uninterrupted views in all directions from ground zero, as this shot of the American Fizeau test shows:



Monument Valley does not to my knowledge provide that (It's still an impressive piece of CGI work.).

Offline pometablava

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Re: The Man in the High Castle
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2018, 01:18:44 am »
Graham,

Many thanks for the references!

Offline fightingirish

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Re: The Man in the High Castle
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2018, 02:09:59 am »
The Dornier Do 31 is shown in Season 3, Episode 10.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2018, 05:17:20 am by fightingirish »
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Offline Grey Havoc

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Re: The Man in the High Castle
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2019, 02:17:10 am »
The sole imperative of a government, once instituted, is to survive.

Offline Graham1973

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Re: The Man in the High Castle
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2019, 06:32:49 am »
Interesting, I see they even got the table covering right, if I remember Kubrick wanted it to look like a poker table in Dr Strangelove.

Of course the first time I saw it in color was thanks to the band Muse.



Offline Michel Van

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Re: The Man in the High Castle
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2019, 12:13:42 am »
That SST scene play at Tempelhof airport

The poor Inhabitants of Berlin, they got Airport with noisy SST middle of City...
For there runways the must have demolish allot residential area in Tempelhof and NeuKölln...
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Offline Grey Havoc

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Re: The Man in the High Castle
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2019, 03:58:35 pm »
Interestingly, it's implied that the SST engines are turborockets, or possibly turboramjets.
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Offline Graham1973

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Re: The Man in the High Castle
« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2019, 04:13:50 am »
A compilation of scenes from Series three featuring that Yamato Class Battleship, the CGI people did a nice job on her.


Offline Michel Van

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Re: The Man in the High Castle
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2019, 01:31:24 pm »
now that hit me like a surprise



more on Atlantropa

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Offline fightingirish

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Re: The Man in the High Castle
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2019, 02:41:52 pm »
You can play a mission on that bridge/dam between Africa and Gibraltar in the first-person shooter video game Wolfenstein: The New Order from 2014.
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