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Author Topic: Franco-British aircraft, from 1959  (Read 2022 times)

Offline Archibald

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Franco-British aircraft, from 1959
« on: June 09, 2018, 11:54:40 pm »
As said in the title.
http://spotaero.blogspot.com/2013/05/la-genese-du-dassault-mirage-iv.html

The Mirage IV-01 and Mirage IV-A were powered by Atar turbojets, and needed C-135 tanker to strike anywhere in the Soviet Union (bar one-way trips to Moscow)

This was considered too small so late 1958 a scaled-up Mirage IV-B was requested: it grew in size to B-58. A 4-atar was rejected as too different, so it would be a twin jet, but SNECMA was unable to pull a viable engine. so France turned abroad, and considered four engines
- PS-13 Iroquois
- RB.142R Medway
- Olympus
- J-75

IOTL they went with the J-75, and SNECMA traded 10% of its shares for a licence. Soon De Gaulle realized that american engines meant the bombers could be grounded by lack of spares, so the partially build IV-B was scrapped, in favor of an aerial refueling IV-A. Tankers considered were others Mirages, Vautours, and finally, C-135FR.

Whatif SNECMA went for the  Olympus or Medway, that is, the British way - Rolls Royce or Bristol ?

Both options have quite fantastic whatif potential
- Olympus of course screams CONCOOORDE and surely enough, the Mirage IV-B would be a 1/3 subscale Concorde, and a very useful testbed.
- such machine could butterfly the TSR-2 and replace the V-bombers. With TSR-2 avionics it would be one hell of a world better: a Franco-British Tu-26 Backfire a decade before the Tu-26.
- Medway screams... VIGGEEN, since the Swedes badly wanted it for SAAB new fighter. If the french rescue it for their own bomber, we will get happy Swedish and perhaps a different aircraft.

Mirage IV* is different: it is the Mirage IV-A with Spey, in 1965-66, long after that POD. Astonishingly enough, both airframe and engine are... a subscale Mirage IVB, and subscale Medway ! How about that.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2018, 08:05:35 pm by Skyblazer »
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Offline Archibald

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Re: Franco-British aircraft, from 1959
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2018, 12:10:20 am »
In this scenario, one can kiss the Jaguar goodbye, and it will be hardly a loss. Harrier and Mirage V would take his role on both sides of the channel.

Other areas of cooperation are aircraft carrier. How about basing CVA-01, not on the Clemenceaus - too small - but on their bigger brother, the 45 000 tons PA-58 Verdun ? (essentially a 1960 Charles de Gaulle minus the nuclear machinery) With a little help from the British it could grow to 50 000 - 55 000 tons but no further, as it would strain both countries resources.

If CVA-01 is unstoppable and happens as OTL, the Invincible can be of interest to the French Navy to replace the old Arromanches in 1974. Harriers could also replace the Etendard IV, providing the French Invincible with limited air cover when the Crusaders (and their carriers) are not available. the great thing with the Harrier is that it can do attack missions from the Clemenceaus, or air cover from an Invincible. The French navy would really appreciate that flexibility, and the lower cost of an Invincible.

Buying an Invincible would butterfly PH-75, hence the Charles de Gaulle might not be build, or build differently. Sea Harrier FA-2, even subsonic, would be far, far better than the cranky Crusaders.
Even more importantly, they would not use the Clemenceaus catapults which by the 90's, were really worned out. Since there would be no Super Etendard either, the catapults would end as unuseful, and perhaps this would help Foch to get a longer life, to 2004 and beyond.
Next step, of course, is CVF / Queen Elizabeth.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2018, 12:13:29 am by Archibald »
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Offline Michel Van

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Re: Franco-British aircraft, from 1959
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2018, 02:07:15 am »
Interesting topic,

On Harrier, Dassault wanted its own version with Bristol: the MD-610 Cavalier.

i can imagine that RAF and RN would goes for Mirage III Fighters with British engine. (bye bye Jaguar)
Special if a part of Mirage III are build in England

Also other collaboration program like Concorde and "Anglo-french-Variable geometry Aircraft".
or join-venture in research on Hypersonic aircraft or spaceflight program.

But Politic is biggest problem in this scenario special the era Harold Wilson
you need a event were France and Britain a forced to work together.

There several options like Suez crisis.
i made Timeline for Alternatehistory.Com about 1960s French British jion venture
as in 1960 french air-force shot down by mistake, A soviet aircraft with Leonid Brezhnev onboard
This almost happen on February 9, 1961 in Algerian Airspace...
« Last Edit: June 10, 2018, 02:11:03 am by Michel Van »
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Offline Lascaris

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Re: Franco-British aircraft, from 1959
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2018, 10:31:56 am »
Ok lets put POD at 1958 and the US failing to sign a nuclear agreement with Britain. This in turn tips Britain towards closer cooperation with France and Snecma next year cooperates with Bristol for Olympus. Come 1960 France detonates its French bomb and Britain and France as a means of cutting down costs start cooperating further on nuclear technology. In the meantime as a way of cutting down costs  the French side PA58 becomes the third CVA01 but with a twist, it's an outgrouth of the 42,000t design in 1960. France goes forth with Mirage IVB, or not.

 Fast forward to 1962. The US cancells Skybolt and US-British relations were ust that bit cooler since 1958 that the Polaris agreemnt falls through. The British are back pissed off and with a serious problem in what to do with their detterent. Well there is an obvious solution. The French are ahead on a viable SLBM, Britain has a naval nuclear reactor of its own in the form of Rolls Royce PWR. Share the two and you can get an SSBN at a lower total development cost for both France and Britain. Strike two at the British-French cooperation.

The next few years are somewhat anti-climatic from the British point of view. TSR-2, P.1154 go down the drain. The smaller, France involving  CVA-01 survives. Barely. And Britain needs to replace TSR.2 with something and said something is not going to be F-111 given what took place already. It's a Mirage IV variant either Mirage IVB or Mirage IV* along with development of AFVG. And this time AFVG is not someting you can cancel so easily. Not when it puts in jeopardy half a bilion dollars of Mirage IV orders and the other cooperation programs. France and Dassault have to stick to it. At the same time NKF is developing separately by Germany, Italy and the Netherlands as a variable wing, single engine aircraft. Dassault of course presses on with Mirage F1 for all it's worth and sells Mirage F1E with Bristol-Snecma M53 (about 10-15% stronger) and British radar to Belgium in 1974 (Netherlands is out of the OTL consortium thanks to NKF), Greece and Spain following and the French air force switching to the newer model. In the meantime as development continues it starts to become pretty clear AFVG may be a great strike platform but not so much of an air superiority one. Thus in late 1975 he sells the idea of *Mirage 4000 (with heavy British input) to RAF (165 airframes) and AdA (75 nuclear strike and 100 air superiority).

Which just brought us to the early 1980s and... do the Eurocanards have a reason to exist in this TL? For France Jaguar is non existent, its carriers have Mirage F1M and AFVG and the air force a mix of AFVG, Mirage F1E and Mirage 4000, any need for the 1990s can be covered by upgraded Mirage 4000s, lets call it Mirage 4000-5. For Britain it's the same, Mirage 4000 can replace F-4K/M without undue trouble. Germany is making NKF, probably in place of F-4F as well, ditto for Italy. So what are the Eurocanards supposed to be replacing? The next logical development program seems to me to be a replacement for AFVG/NKF/Mirage. But this puts us to the late 1980s/ early 1990s and a 5th generation design...


Offline Michel Van

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Re: Franco-British aircraft, from 1959
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2018, 06:12:45 am »
At the same time NKF is developing separately by Germany, Italy and the Netherlands as a variable wing, single engine aircraft.
Dassault of course presses on with Mirage F1 for all it's worth and sells Mirage F1E with Bristol-Snecma M53 (about 10-15% stronger) and British radar to Belgium in 1974 (Netherlands is out of the OTL consortium thanks to NKF),

Lascaris, what stands the acronym NKF for ?, is that the Early Tornado study ?
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Offline Lascaris

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Re: Franco-British aircraft, from 1959
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2018, 09:37:34 am »
At the same time NKF is developing separately by Germany, Italy and the Netherlands as a variable wing, single engine aircraft.
Dassault of course presses on with Mirage F1 for all it's worth and sells Mirage F1E with Bristol-Snecma M53 (about 10-15% stronger) and British radar to Belgium in 1974 (Netherlands is out of the OTL consortium thanks to NKF),

Lascaris, what stands the acronym NKF for ?, is that the Early Tornado study ?

Yes, Neues Kampfflugzeug. Eventually it would turn to Tornado. Without British involvement it probably is much closer to the original German concept I'd think, which in turn keeps the Dutch and possibly the Canadians onboard.

Offline Archibald

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Re: Franco-British aircraft, from 1959
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2018, 09:58:31 am »
Ok lets put POD at 1958 and the US failing to sign a nuclear agreement with Britain. This in turn tips Britain towards closer cooperation with France and Snecma next year cooperates with Bristol for Olympus. Come 1960 France detonates its French bomb and Britain and France as a means of cutting down costs start cooperating further on nuclear technology. In the meantime as a way of cutting down costs  the French side PA58 becomes the third CVA01 but with a twist, it's an outgrouth of the 42,000t design in 1960. France goes forth with Mirage IVB, or not.

 Fast forward to 1962. The US cancells Skybolt and US-British relations were ust that bit cooler since 1958 that the Polaris agreemnt falls through. The British are back pissed off and with a serious problem in what to do with their detterent. Well there is an obvious solution. The French are ahead on a viable SLBM, Britain has a naval nuclear reactor of its own in the form of Rolls Royce PWR. Share the two and you can get an SSBN at a lower total development cost for both France and Britain. Strike two at the British-French cooperation.

The next few years are somewhat anti-climatic from the British point of view. TSR-2, P.1154 go down the drain. The smaller, France involving  CVA-01 survives. Barely. And Britain needs to replace TSR.2 with something and said something is not going to be F-111 given what took place already. It's a Mirage IV variant either Mirage IVB or Mirage IV* along with development of AFVG. And this time AFVG is not someting you can cancel so easily. Not when it puts in jeopardy half a bilion dollars of Mirage IV orders and the other cooperation programs. France and Dassault have to stick to it. At the same time NKF is developing separately by Germany, Italy and the Netherlands as a variable wing, single engine aircraft. Dassault of course presses on with Mirage F1 for all it's worth and sells Mirage F1E with Bristol-Snecma M53 (about 10-15% stronger) and British radar to Belgium in 1974 (Netherlands is out of the OTL consortium thanks to NKF), Greece and Spain following and the French air force switching to the newer model. In the meantime as development continues it starts to become pretty clear AFVG may be a great strike platform but not so much of an air superiority one. Thus in late 1975 he sells the idea of *Mirage 4000 (with heavy British input) to RAF (165 airframes) and AdA (75 nuclear strike and 100 air superiority).

Which just brought us to the early 1980s and... do the Eurocanards have a reason to exist in this TL? For France Jaguar is non existent, its carriers have Mirage F1M and AFVG and the air force a mix of AFVG, Mirage F1E and Mirage 4000, any need for the 1990s can be covered by upgraded Mirage 4000s, lets call it Mirage 4000-5. For Britain it's the same, Mirage 4000 can replace F-4K/M without undue trouble. Germany is making NKF, probably in place of F-4F as well, ditto for Italy. So what are the Eurocanards supposed to be replacing? The next logical development program seems to me to be a replacement for AFVG/NKF/Mirage. But this puts us to the late 1980s/ early 1990s and a 5th generation design...

Pretty good !  AFVG would soon find itself in a strange situation. When compared to OTL Jaguar, and IOTL Mirage IV-B, it is good for nothing. Too small for the strategic bombing role, too expensive to be another Jaguar.

The sheer expense of the large Mirage IV-B will weigh heavily on the armée de l'air. I'm not even sure they can build 62 airframes as per OTL. With the british engines, it might get more pressure on the TSR-2 as a joint program. I'm quite sure Great Britain might let the French assume the large cost of the Mirage IV-B airframe and provide the engines, plus some advanced avionics. In turn, this would mean no AFVG.
Heck, it might even mean, no Concorde - yes, I know, HERESY, BURN THE WITCH (she turned me into a newt !)

Removing the Jaguar would free a lot of money spent on that aircraft between 1967 and 1973, money that could not go to an air superioty fighter to replace the Mirage IIIC - the F1 was a low cost stopgap... that lasted forever (just like so many other stopgaps, hint: the AH-1 Cobra).

As for the Mirage F1, it might not exist at all: the Mirage F3 (a 110% upscaled F1 with a turbofan in place of the Atar) or Mirage G or Mirage F2 or plenty other designs (see Michel Liébert book).
 The Mirage G with a British engine would make a perfect naval fighter, although not very manoeuverable: somewhat the bastard child of a Tomcat and a MiG-23.

best bet would be the Mirage F3, including naval variants. No VG for this one, once again, right between the F1 (too small, underpowered) and the G (VG is too heavy).

whatever the naval fighter to replace the Crusader, it removes a major roadblock that led to the Rafale / Typhoon split in 1985...
« Last Edit: June 11, 2018, 10:40:25 am by Archibald »
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Offline Michel Van

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Re: Franco-British aircraft, from 1959
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2018, 04:30:33 am »

Yes, Neues Kampfflugzeug. Eventually it would turn to Tornado. Without British involvement it probably is much closer to the original German concept I'd think, which in turn keeps the Dutch and possibly the Canadians onboard.

Oh that Proto Tornado study, i think earlier 1967
It was about to replace the F-104 in Air-force. Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, Italy, Canada
but that was called Multi-Role Aircraft 75 – MRA-75
in mean time the RAF lost the TSR.2 and focus on AFVG and F-111K
but do era Harold Wilson the French say in June 1967 ADIEU to AFVG and six months later F-111K was of table also.

1968 Britan join MRA-75 group and program became Multi-Role-Combat-Aircraft
British and Germans starte do changes in specifications
while MRA-75 was single engine Fighter like a F-104, MRCA was Twin Jet Engine aircraft in size of a F-15A or F-14
Netherlands, Belgium and Canada  left the MRCA Program they wanted smaller Aircraft

1969 MRCA was Two version Aircraft: one Bomber for British and a long-range Fighter/interceptor the Germans wanted.
both based on main fuselage but different weapons and crew, the Bomber two, the Fighter one.
in end it became Multi-role Combat Aircraft with two pilots and Germans buy F-4 Phantoms als long-range Fighter/interceptor.

in mean time Netherlands, Belgium, Italy and other members of NATO still looking for F-104 replacement.
what became the Air Combat Fighter competition proposed were:
Dassault Mirage F1M-53
SEPECAT Jaguar
Saab 37E "Eurofighter"
Northrop P-530 Cobra
General Dynamics F-16 Falcon

The winner was F-16 because lower maintain cost, longer range and maneuver performance.
Thanks to the Pratt & Whitney F100 turbofan engine used in F-16 and F-15.

i think with better British engine in Mirage F1M-53 it could have won this competition
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Offline zen

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Re: Franco-British aircraft, from 1959
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2018, 05:27:28 am »
For the MRI mission either a F2 derivative or Mirage G solve the problem. No Jaguars, no F1.
But......
AFVG is problematic.
58 raises the SO design, which if powered by Avon or Spey is a potential F4 alternative. Though a scaled up to Medway version starts to look a bit like HSA's TSR 2 offering.......

Equally an actual Mirage F4 design with two engines and a F1 style wing is possible. Circa early 60's.

1960 42,000ton CVA study is potentially a way forward. Followed by a PAH 75 mini-CVN.

Sea Dart for AAW ships. System C for ASW ships.
Tripartite deal possible with Dutch.
If 58 might even persuade RN for a 105mm version of French 100mm gun.

Offline Archibald

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Re: Franco-British aircraft, from 1959
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2018, 10:00:38 am »
Whatever the scenario, minus for the Tornado, AFVG mostly sounds a lost cause. The engine itself, the M45, was pretty controversial. I did check the specs, it was extremely small and compact (close enough from a M-88 or EJ-200 !), but somewhat lacked thrust.

While the Mirage IV* was proposed in 1965-1966 AHEAD of the AVFG, the military M45 seems to have vanished into a blackhole after the AFVG cancellation in June 1967. It was completely outclassed by the M53 and RB-199.

Recently I had some fun imagining a Mirage IV powered, not by the *usual suspects* - Spey or M53 - but M45. They are slightly less powerful than the original Atars (not that much, 5800 kg thrust vs 6700), but barely 1/2 the size and weight, and turbofans with extremely low specific consumption. This result in vastly extended range.

In fact I'm searching for the exact specifications of the AFVG M45 engines - diameter, weight, specific consumption, thrust. I combed the web and found only very fractional results. Any help would be very welcome.

« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 10:07:53 am by Archibald »
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Offline Michel Van

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Re: Franco-British aircraft, from 1959
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2018, 12:14:52 pm »
That make sense Archibald, that AFVG simply dies in this TL do Mirage IV*

but there is project we over looked, the next generation of french hypersonic Interceptors and Fighters 
(better known as Mirage Mach +3 project.)

on British side were also Study for hypersonic Aircraft like Airliner, Military transporter or Rocket launch.
of course those project went nowhere, but it could result in series of Franco-British hypersonic Test aircraft ! 

And what about Space flight, what if The French and British came to agremment
to put a downsize Emeraude Rocket on top of a Blue Streak, creating a European version of Atlas-Agena ?
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 12:17:41 pm by Michel Van »
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Offline zen

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Re: Franco-British aircraft, from 1959
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2018, 02:08:32 pm »
Hmmm. ...

A Mirage F1 type with twin M45s....

Offline Michel Van

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Re: Franco-British aircraft, from 1959
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2018, 08:41:17 pm »
Hmmm. ...

A Mirage F1 type with twin M45s....

Feasible to make, but practicable ?
The F-16 was popular because it is easy to maintain do it Single engine
This why the Northrop P-530 Cobra / YF-17 was rejected in Air Combat Fighter competition and Lightweight Fighter program
because of its twin engine

(F/A-18 do no count here this is not a Lightweight Fighter, but F-14 replacement)
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Offline Archibald

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Re: Franco-British aircraft, from 1959
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2018, 10:17:19 pm »
As for civilian rocketry, best bet would be a 100% Franco-British effort (NO OTHER COUNTRY, no freakkin' ELDO) to put a LOX/LH2 stage ontop of Blue Streak as soon as possible. France had the HM- series and Great Britain had the RZ-20, so merge the two and goes all out on this one and only project. End result would be 2/3 capability of an Atlas-Centaur, enough to start a serious space program. Limited growth with small solid strapons borrowed from the Force de frappe missiles.
France did tried that with ELDO-B, but ELDO was hopeless.
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Offline Michel Van

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Re: Franco-British aircraft, from 1959
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2018, 05:43:18 am »
what About this Timeline ?

1961 French-British agreement about space Join-Venture 
Blue Streak and Modified French Emeraude DP L-8 stage  (Atlas-Agena)
(it Mass and length reduced by half - Code DP stands for french „Demi-portion“ or „Half-Portion“ in englisch.)
After series of failures, the six test launch is successful, bringing a British test satellite in Low polar orbit in November 15, 1966.

begin of launching series Research Satellite

1971 New Version of Blue Streak Mk II and new French stage Améthyste DP L-8 als replacement for older Emeraude DP.
also testing the Améthyste L-17 as Booster for Blue Streak Mk II
use of Guiana Space Center (GSC) in addition to Woomera 
launching Experimental communications Satellite and first military payload

1975 New Version of Blue Streak Mk III with H-20 hydrolox stage with two RZ-20 (Atlas-Centaur)
use Modified Blue streak as booster for new rocket (Falcon Heavy)
launching communication Satellite und deep space probes and heavy reconnaissance Satellite.

1980s
Study for Space Station french SOLARIS and Manned Capsule like the Multi-Role Capsule.
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