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Author Topic: The US Space Force  (Read 9660 times)

Offline VTOLicious

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The US Space Force
« on: March 14, 2018, 11:09:37 am »
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Offline sferrin

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2018, 11:50:16 am »
No doubt the horse cavalry in the US Army thought the same, "Air Force....seriously?"
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Online Boxman

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2018, 11:59:11 am »
Observation balloons and aircraft didn't physically pose a threat to anyone, but the information they gathered and relayed did.

Weapons have been transiting space since the first V-2 landed a warhead.

A "space force" is no more absurd than a navy or an air force.

Offline fredymac

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2018, 12:13:16 pm »
The Air Force was carved off the Army in order to isolate its' budget from Army priorities.  The lack of advocacy for space access technology and operational capability is partly due to Air Force focus on the air environment.  Space is seen as auxiliary to that environment.

If an independent space service had been established in the 90's, it would have probably provided the advocacy and support to have pressed ahead with robust, economical space access technology and other operational capability.  The political call comes in determining when Air Force organic priorities have become too hindering to national concerns for space operations.

Offline VTOLicious

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2018, 12:36:27 pm »
No doubt the horse cavalry in the US Army thought the same, "Air Force....seriously?"

I think you kinda missing my point...

"...As the Cold War began, fear of Outer Space being used for military purposes spread through the international community. This led to the creation of multiple organizations with the intent of governing how outer space can be used in order to assure it does not become the next frontier for conflict..."

Offline sferrin

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2018, 12:44:41 pm »
No doubt the horse cavalry in the US Army thought the same, "Air Force....seriously?"

I think you kinda missing my point...

"...As the Cold War began, fear of Outer Space being used for military purposes spread through the international community. This led to the creation of multiple organizations with the intent of governing how outer space can be used in order to assure it does not become the next frontier for conflict..."

If you believe space won't become weaponized I have a bridge for sale.  They may not station nukes in orbit (probably a dumb idea anyway from a reaction standpoint) but I won't be at all surprised to see defensive weapons deployed there.
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Offline fredymac

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2018, 01:21:29 pm »
The WW I analogy is probably accurate.  Reconnaissance, navigation, and communication satellites are already recognized as prime targets for ASAT attacks.  Countermeasure systems will inevitably become integrated or specialized defensive platforms deployed to guard them.  The "carrier killer" DF-21 system will need some type of space based targeting asset.   I doubt the Navy is going to ignore it when it eventually appears.  US space assets are already too important to ignore which is why you keep seeing ASAT tests from China and Russia.  The "prompt and assured" space access projects from DARPA are intended as rapid replacement systems for lost satellites.

Offline Triton

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2018, 03:12:01 pm »
"Does the U.S. Military Need a Space Corps?"

A proposal in Congress would create the first new uniformed service in 70 years, but it faces opposition from the Pentagon.

by Russell Berman Aug 8, 2017

Source:
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/08/military-space-corps/536124/
« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 03:15:45 pm by Triton »

Offline Triton

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2018, 03:18:32 pm »
"Debate intensifies over Rogers’ Space Corps proposal"
by Mike Fabey — September 8, 2017

Source:
http://spacenews.com/debate-intensifies-over-rogers-space-corps-proposal/

Quote
WASHINGTON – With former U.S. Air Force officials demanding more time for the service to prove it is on track with space development, U.S. Rep. Mike Rogers (R-Ala.) continued to argue Sept. 7 the time is now to create a Space Corps, or something akin to it.

The Air Force has had enough time to prove its mettle in space, Rogers, the chairman of the House Armed Services strategic forces subcommittee said during a keynote speech at a Center for Strategic and International Studies conference on space organization.

“The Air Force is as fast as a herd of turtles as far as space is concerned,” said Rogers, who introduced legislation in June to create a Space Corps – a new military branch similar in structure to the Marine Corps – to focus on space operations and acquisition.

A Space Corps would be a better steward of space matters than the Air Force would be, Rogers said, because there would be no competing interests as there are now with space falling under the Air Force’s aviation-focused structural umbrella.

The Air Force’s inability to put space first has created acquisition and operational problems, he said.

“I don’t think the Air Force can fix this,” he said. “You can’t have two No. 1 priorities. The Air Force is focused on air dominance, as it should be.”

But several former Air Force officials at the conference contended the service should – and can – be the entity that controls the majority of national security space programs.

No special, separate space organization is necessary, they said. Instead, what’s needed is more time for the service to further develop and implement the recent operational concepts for warfighting in space recently detailed by Space Command.

“It is very distracting to talk about reorganizing,” said Lisa Disbrow, former Air Force undersecretary, during a panel discussion on defining problems and opportunities.

The nation already has “the world’s best space force,” she said.

Some of the space-funding problems were not of the Air Force’s making, noted Doug Loverro, who served as deputy assistant defense secretary for space policy during the Obama administration. National budgeting changes had a major impact on those programs, he said.

“After sequestration,” he said, “the space budget never recovered.”

In another keynote speech, retired Gen. Robert Kehler, the former commander of U.S. Strategic Command, said space development was derailed not by a lack of interest, but by a greater concern to battle terrorists in Afghanistan and Iraq following the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.

“Why are we behind in space?” Kehler asked. “There was a shooting war.”

While space operational and acquisition issues may continue to exist, he said, those problems can be addressed within the existing Air Force organizational structure.

“Nothing is stopping us,” he said.

“A Space Corps will not fix space acquisition,’ he said. “It will not produce more space professionals or provide more resources.”

Instead, space advocates should be focused on what he calls the “most urgent” problem: “We must prepare ourselves fight a conflict that extends into space.”

One of the ways to do that, he said, is to steal a page from the Navy. “We ought to think about space the way we do about submarines, not the Marines,” he said, noting the submarine force is somewhat of separate, special force that is still part of the Navy.

One possibility the ex-Air Force officials did say might be worth pursuing is some kind of  Rapid Capabilities Office (RCO) for space to streamline acquisition by giving a handful of service officials the ability to fast-track programmatic approvals.

Speaking during a panel discussion at the conference, Bill LaPlante, a former Air Force assistant secretary for acquisition, said the service used such an RCO to push through B-21 bomber decisions more quickly.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 03:39:31 pm by Triton »

Offline Triton

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2018, 03:51:00 pm »
US Space Corps could launch in 3 years, key lawmaker says
By: Joe Gould   February 28, 2018

Source:
https://www.defensenews.com/space/2018/02/28/2021-a-space-odyssey-space-corps-could-launch-in-three-to-five-years-key-lawmaker-says/

Quote

WASHINGTON — Congress’ strongest supporters of a new Space Corps have not given up the fight, slamming the U.S. Air Force for wasted time as Russia and China pose a growing threat to America’s vital satellites.

“We could be deaf, dumb and blind within seconds,” House Armed Services Strategic Forces ranking member Jim Cooper, D-Tenn., said Wednesday at a Center for Strategic and International Studies forum on space. “Seldom has a great nation been so vulnerable.”

Rep. Mike Rogers, chairman of the Strategic Forces Subcommittee, and the Corps’ biggest champion on Capitol Hill, said a space-focused service could be built in three to five years. By year’s end, Rogers, R-Ala., expects an independent report, required by the 2018 defense policy law, about how that process might look.

Rogers and Cooper argue it’s necessary for the military to have a dedicated space force because the Air Force let space capability atrophy in favor of more traditional air needs.

Rogers on Wednesday accused the Air Force of not taking space seriously enough to send a speaker to the CSIS event.

“Over the years, the Air Force has used space programs as a money pot to reach into and subsidize air-dominance programs when they feel like Congress hasn’t given them enough for tankers, fighter jets, whatever,” Rogers said. “Congress has not given any of the services enough, but that doesn’t mean you starve to death one of your subordinate missions.”

White House, Pentagon and Air Force leaders pushed back on a failed proposal from the House Armed Services Committee to create a Space Corps, arguing it would add unneeded bureaucracy. The provision faced opposition in the Senate, and the 2018 defense policy law forbids the creation of such an organization.

The law did give Air Force Space Command authority over space acquisitions, resource management, requirements, war fighting and personnel development — viewed as a start for the potential creation of a Space Corps in the future. And it requires an independent organization develop a road map to start a separate military department to encompass “national security space.”
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U.S. military officials have acknowledged that America’s adversaries have caught up to it in space, but classified reports paint a even more troubling picture, the lawmakers said. Rogers called the over-classification of such information “disturbing.”

“There would be a hew and cry in the American public to fix this situation if they knew how bad things were and what we’ve allowed Russia and China to do,” Rogers said.

The commercial sector’s ability to quickly field new capabilities in space, versus the military’s decade-long acquisition schedules, prove the case for a segregated Space Corps, with its own acquisition system, they said. Rogers said he would be open to more agile acquisition authorities for the Air Force.

“I’d be happy to, I would have liked to have had them pose that a year ago instead of fighting us,” Rogers said of the Air Force.

Offline Triton

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2018, 06:26:56 pm »
"U.S. Air Force General: China Building a ‘Navy in Space’"
by Ben Kew13 Nov 2017

Source:
http://www.breitbart.com/science/2017/11/13/u-s-air-force-general-china-building-navy-space/

Quote
Air Force Lt. Gen. Steve Kwast has argued that China is way ahead of the United States in the race to send settlers to space, and they are currently a building a “navy in space.”

Kwast, who is the commander and president of Air University at the Maxwell Air Force Base in Alabama, said that although America remained the world’s leader in space exploration, they were beginning to fall behind China two years after they announced their cutting-edge “Space Force” plan.

“In my best military judgment, China is on a 10-year journey to operationalize space. We’re on a 50-year journey,” he told CNBC. “We could be on a five-year journey because it’s all about how aggressively we are going about this journey.”

Kwast warned that the Chinese expansion into space could present a serious national security problem, but that North Korea’s nuclear and electromagnetic capabilities were the “real problem.”

“China is working on building a ‘navy in space’ that would work even beyond Earth’s gravity,” Kwast said. “Right now, if North Korea were to launch a missile into space and detonate an electromagnetic pulse, it would take out our eyes in space.”

Kwast also criticized America’s regulation and bureaucratic procedures for slowing down the progress of America’s space programs, especially for private companies such as SpaceX, and urged authorities to “bring together the right talent to accelerate the journey.”

“You have to detail everything in your suitcase—each item’s material, manufacturer, weight and more—the government takes a year to go through it and then tells you what you can and can’t take,” he said.

“And, if you have to update your request, then you have to start all over,” he said. “When you finally get approval you have to spend your entire life savings for the airplane, which, when you land, you have to burn to the ground.”

This view is defended by Space X President Gwynne Shotwell, who said real progress can only be achieved if ” the U.S. government must remove bureaucratic practices that run counter to innovation and speed.”

In March, President Donald Trump signed a bill securing funding for the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA), with the aim of sending a “crewed mission to Mars in the 2030s.”

Meanwhile, representatives of the Chinese government and the European Space Agency began talks in April regarding the construction of a possible moon base, and have also unveiled plans to land a vehicle on Mars by 2020.

Offline Avimimus

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2018, 05:07:36 am »
No doubt the horse cavalry in the US Army thought the same, "Air Force....seriously?"

You know, I'd just been about to walk back my claim (in the Russian strategic moderation) about the U.S. being perceived as interested in the militarisation of space when this came out... :p

That said there are a number of DARPA and Pentagon funded documents discussing the merits, means, and possible policies for weapons in space... which is where my belief came from. I admit that there is a tendency for militaries to draw up plans without implementing them (or even intending to implement them), but it is reasonable for the public mooting of such plans to draw a reaction from other powers.

There just wasn't absolutely clear evidence of intent to carry through (I believe all of my other claims could be backed up with empirical evidence and are non-speculative).

Offline sferrin

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2018, 05:30:55 am »
No doubt the horse cavalry in the US Army thought the same, "Air Force....seriously?"

You know, I'd just been about to walk back my claim (in the Russian strategic moderation) about the U.S. being perceived as interested in the militarisation of space when this came out... :p

Your claim was there were space weapons NOW.   
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Offline bring_it_on

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2018, 05:45:08 am »
Space based capability is already, and has been for a long time, used for both offensive, and defensive military operations. Multiple nations possess, or are soon going to possess, capabilities to destroy these systems during conflict. Militarization of space happened a long long time ago. Now it is just a matter of how best to better attack and defend space based capability against a peer adversary.
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Offline Avimimus

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2018, 06:14:04 am »
No doubt the horse cavalry in the US Army thought the same, "Air Force....seriously?"

You know, I'd just been about to walk back my claim (in the Russian strategic moderation) about the U.S. being perceived as interested in the militarisation of space when this came out... :p

Your claim was there were space weapons NOW.

It certainly wasn't intended as that. I meant an intent to develop a capability.

To be clear, I didn't even necessarily mean a deployed capability, more along the lines of pursuing the equivalent of being nuclear latent state / nuclear threshold state, but when it comes to space-borne weapons (e.g. The U.S. has the goal of eventually being able to deploy a substantial number of FOBS or strike capable satellites within a couple of years of getting the green light).

For the record, this is what I wrote:

The United States is pursuing hypersonics, space based weapons, and pulling out of disarmament treaties.

Offline sferrin

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2018, 06:52:23 am »
To be clear, I didn't even necessarily mean a deployed capability, more along the lines of pursuing the equivalent of being nuclear latent state / nuclear threshold state, but when it comes to space-borne weapons (e.g. The U.S. has the goal of eventually being able to deploy a substantial number of FOBS or strike capable satellites within a couple of years of getting the green light).

There is ZERO evidence that the US intends to develop a FOBS system or nuclear-armed satellites.  There is no evidence they're even researching the capability.


For the record, this is what I wrote:

The United States is pursuing hypersonics, space based weapons, and pulling out of disarmament treaties.

Again, the US is NOT pursuing "space based weapons".  If it is, name the system or program.  As for hypersonics, that's hardly controversial given both Russia and China are AHEAD of the US.  As for pulling out of treaties I have a difficult time faulting the US for that when the other side isn't abiding by them. Why should we unilaterally hobble ourselves?
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Offline Triton

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2018, 10:49:50 pm »
I wonder if a Department of the Space Force would take over the programs of the Missile Defense Agency to develop anti-ballistic missile defense and the ground-based strategic deterrent from the United States Air Force in addition to being responsible for satellite launches and satellite defense. Further, how many journalists and laypersons had visions of Space Marines when President Trump advocated a "Space Force?"
« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 12:34:14 pm by Triton »

Offline Archibald

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2018, 02:46:37 am »
Who needs Shuttle noawadays, even with racing strippes ? imagine the number of laser-armed space marines a BFS could carry... (we really need a remake of Moonraker, either cheesy or serious, I don't care)
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Offline Foo Fighter

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2018, 03:32:24 am »
More likely to be accepted for funding as cheesy, serious does not get the moolah in cinema.

Offline sferrin

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2018, 04:53:20 am »
Who needs Shuttle noawadays, even with racing strippes ? imagine the number of laser-armed space marines a BFS could carry... (we really need a remake of Moonraker, either cheesy or serious, I don't care)

Ahem:
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Offline sferrin

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2018, 05:35:02 am »
Or how about a manned reusable space "fighter" stuck to the end of a Falcon 9 1st stage?  Maybe a larger X-37 with enough fuel to make it the rest of the way to orbit (with the 1st stage having enough fuel to land at sea or back at the launch site), maneuver in orbit, and deorbit for a glide back to base. Would this even be possible?  That is, would a Block 5 Falcon 9 have enough oomph to put something of that description where it could get the rest of the way to orbit?
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Offline Triton

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2018, 02:53:47 pm »
Who needs Shuttle noawadays, even with racing strippes ? imagine the number of laser-armed space marines a BFS could carry... (we really need a remake of Moonraker, either cheesy or serious, I don't care)

Elon Musk is Hugo Drax?  :o

Offline kcran567

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2018, 04:05:44 pm »
"Submarine" type armed space vehicles like a "space Navy":


Offline bobbymike

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2018, 12:44:19 am »
http://www.airforcemag.com/Features/Pages/2018/March%202018/New-Funding-Enough-to-Counter-Space-Threats-AFSPC-Commander-Says.aspx?utm_source=&utm_medium=&utm_campaign=

Quote
The Air Force bolstered its space budget by 18 percent, or $7 billion over the five-year future years defense program, in an effort to increase its capabilities and ensure the United States keeps pace with other countries in space, Air Force Space Command chief Gen. Jay Raymond said Thursday.

His remarks during a brief public session of the House Armed Services Strategic Forces Subcommittee were questioned by Rep. Seth Moulton (D-Mass.), who pointed to successful Chinese test launches of several anti-satellite missiles, a development he said “fundamentally alters the strategic balance between great powers,” which has “continued to evolve in favor of China” as it has “accelerated development of space weapons.”
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Offline NeilChapman

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2018, 10:25:01 am »
Or how about a manned reusable space "fighter" stuck to the end of a Falcon 9 1st stage?  Maybe a larger X-37 with enough fuel to make it the rest of the way to orbit (with the 1st stage having enough fuel to land at sea or back at the launch site), maneuver in orbit, and deorbit for a glide back to base. Would this even be possible?  That is, would a Block 5 Falcon 9 have enough oomph to put something of that description where it could get the rest of the way to orbit?


That's a $60million launch, no? Maybe $18-30million if purchased in bulk?

I don't understand what the mission would be.  Why a manned fighter in space, launched from the ground.  If you wanted manned fighters in space would it not make sense to assemble them in space?  There is so much less complexity if you remove the restrictions of getting an assembled vehicle into orbit (weight, size, shape). Why not take them up in pieces and connect the parts in space?

The hitch is getting humans into space.  Neither Crew Dragon or CST-100 will fly until the end of the year.  Price per launch is expected to be $654 and $405million, respectively.  There doesn't seem to be any economy of scale until BFS is realized.

Interesting read...

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20170008895.pdf





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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2018, 11:14:29 pm »
Sigh...in an alternate history the first brilliant pebbles that were orbited as part of GPALS would
be nearing retirement this year. 

While there are countermeasures to space based interceptors they look to be pretty complex/costly.

Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2018, 09:19:39 am »

The hitch is getting humans into space.  Neither Crew Dragon or CST-100 will fly until the end of the year.  Price per launch is expected to be $654 and $405million, respectively. 

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Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2018, 09:21:06 am »
Sigh...in an alternate history the first brilliant pebbles that were orbited as part of GPALS would
be nearing retirement this year. 

While there are countermeasures to space based interceptors they look to be pretty complex/costly.

Is there more to that "fractionated Trident" document?
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Online marauder2048

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #28 on: March 20, 2018, 11:31:28 am »
Is there more to that "fractionated Trident" document?

Attached.

Offline sferrin

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #29 on: March 20, 2018, 04:10:42 pm »
Sigh...in an alternate history the first brilliant pebbles that were orbited as part of GPALS would
be nearing retirement this year. 

While there are countermeasures to space based interceptors they look to be pretty complex/costly.

Is there more to that "fractionated Trident" document?

There have been others in the past as well:

http://www.astronautix.com/n/n11gr.html

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Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #30 on: March 20, 2018, 06:39:12 pm »
Is there more to that "fractionated Trident" document?

Attached.

Thank you sir.
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Offline NeilChapman

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #31 on: March 21, 2018, 12:06:58 am »

The hitch is getting humans into space.  Neither Crew Dragon or CST-100 will fly until the end of the year.  Price per launch is expected to be $654 and $405million, respectively. 




Seemed excessive to me as well.  Hope someone can tease out what factors necessitate this pricing structure.  BTW...I got the pricing reversed.  Should be Crew Dragon, $405M and CST-100, $654M. 




Offline bobbymike

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #32 on: March 22, 2018, 06:33:05 am »
http://www.defenseone.com/technology/2018/03/pentagons-new-arms-research-chief-eyes-space-based-ray-guns/146863/?oref=defenseone_today_nl

Quote
Neutral-particle beams, a concept first tried in the 1980s, may get a fresh look under Michael Griffin.

“Directed energy is more than just big lasers, Griffin said. “That’s important. High-powered microwave approaches can effect an electronics kill. The same with the neutral particle beam systems we explored briefly in the 1990s” for use in space-based anti-missile systems. Such weapons can be “useful in a variety of environments” and have the “advantage of being non-attributable,” meaning that it can be hard to pin an attack with a particle weapon on any particular culprit since it leaves no evidence behind of who or even what did the damage.
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Offline Michel Van

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #33 on: June 18, 2018, 12:15:42 pm »
it's happen, Trump make his dream come true...

I love Strange Technology

Offline Flyaway

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2018, 12:29:50 pm »
And confirmed.

President Trump Calls on Pentagon to Create New Military Branch: A 'Space Force'

Quote
President Donald Trump called for a new “Space Force” to be added to the U.S. military as an armed service separate from the Pentagon’s five traditional uniformed branches.

“When it comes to defending America, it is not enough to merely have an American presence in space,” Trump said Monday at a White House event on space policy. “We must have American dominance in space.”

http://time.com/5314994/donald-trump-pentagon-space-force/

Offline TomS

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2018, 12:39:37 pm »
And confirmed.

President Trump Calls on Pentagon to Create New Military Branch: A 'Space Force'

Quote
President Donald Trump called for a new “Space Force” to be added to the U.S. military as an armed service separate from the Pentagon’s five traditional uniformed branches.

“When it comes to defending America, it is not enough to merely have an American presence in space,” Trump said Monday at a White House event on space policy. “We must have American dominance in space.”

http://time.com/5314994/donald-trump-pentagon-space-force/

Of course, Congress already rejected this idea. The NDAA instead creates a new separate Space Command within USAF.

http://spacenews.com/space-reforms-c...u-s-air-force/

Quote
The NDAA empowers Air Force Space Command as the sole authority for organizing, training, and equipping all U.S. Air Force space forces. Air Force Space Command is made the focal point for a “space service” within the Air Force responsible for acquisition, resources and requirements.” This cadre of space “war fighters” would be tasked to fix the “systemic problems Congress identified in the national security space enterprise.”

The Air Force Space Command would be modeled after the Office of Naval Reactors, stressing deep technical expertise. The bill gives the commander of Air Force Space Command a six-year term.

Offline Michel Van

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #36 on: June 18, 2018, 12:53:38 pm »
to be honest, as i heard the news, i had a laughing fit.

I wonder now, will they ripp out all Space flight activity from USAF, US Army and US Navy
and put it in US Space Force USSF ?
and were is money come to run that Force ?
probably the Budget USAF get for Space activity will transfer to USSF once there operational

and how will Russia, China and India react on that news ?

i could't not resist it, a joke about USSF...
I love Strange Technology

Offline TomS

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #37 on: June 18, 2018, 01:06:37 pm »
It's important to mention that Trump cannot create a new independent service on his own authority.  The existing services are established under the National Security Act of 1947, and Congress would have to amend that to allow the creation of a separate United States Space Force.

Offline Moose

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #38 on: June 18, 2018, 01:15:18 pm »
It's important to mention that Trump cannot create a new independent service on his own authority.  The existing services are established under the National Security Act of 1947, and Congress would have to amend that to allow the creation of a separate United States Space Force.
Someone should probably tell him.

Offline Flyaway

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #39 on: June 18, 2018, 01:57:18 pm »
Some interesting points raised here.

Trump: ‘We are going to have the Space Force’

Quote
Trump can order the Pentagon to create a Space Force but only Congress can make it happen.

Quote
President Trump on Monday threw a wrench into the Pentagon’s carefully laid out plans to analyze how best to reorganize the military’s space forces. In remarks kicking off a meeting of the National Space Council, Trump pointedly directed the Pentagon to create a Space Force as a “separate but equal” branch of the U.S. military.

Quote
According to sources, Trump’s remarks were not off-the-cuff. He had planned to make this announcement weeks ago, and Pentagon officials had been advised the president would be directing the creation of a Space Force at the June 18 National Space Council meeting. Trump mentioned his desire to have a Space Force at four different events in recent months, and the feedback he received was mostly positive, which motivated him to get the process started sooner rather than later.

http://spacenews.com/trump-we-are-going-to-have-the-space-force/

Offline bobbymike

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #40 on: June 18, 2018, 05:41:39 pm »
https://news.usni.org/2018/06/18/34434

Quote
The White House’s proposed military Space Force would likely rely heavily on existing personnel from inside the Navy, Marine Corps, Air Force and Army, plus a host of other intelligence agencies, experts told USNI News on Monday.

The Space Force was announced by President Trump on Monday. Trump’s directive doesn’t provide mission specifics, but the language suggests the Space Force would be charged with protecting both commercial and government assets in space.

“As space becomes increasingly contested, the demand for the Department of Defense to focus on protecting U.S. space assets and interests also increases. At the same time, the rapid commercialization of space requires a traffic management framework that protects U.S. interests and considers the private sector’s needs,” the directive reads.

But before the proposed sixth branch of the military is formed, Congress needs to approve legislation and the Department of Defense would have to iron out the fine details, according to a Monday afternoon statement from Pentagon spokeswoman Dana White.
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Offline sferrin

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #41 on: June 19, 2018, 05:04:26 am »
Some interesting points raised here.

Trump: ‘We are going to have the Space Force’

Quote
Trump can order the Pentagon to create a Space Force but only Congress can make it happen.

Quote
President Trump on Monday threw a wrench into the Pentagon’s carefully laid out plans to analyze how best to reorganize the military’s space forces. In remarks kicking off a meeting of the National Space Council, Trump pointedly directed the Pentagon to create a Space Force as a “separate but equal” branch of the U.S. military.

Quote
According to sources, Trump’s remarks were not off-the-cuff. He had planned to make this announcement weeks ago, and Pentagon officials had been advised the president would be directing the creation of a Space Force at the June 18 National Space Council meeting. Trump mentioned his desire to have a Space Force at four different events in recent months, and the feedback he received was mostly positive, which motivated him to get the process started sooner rather than later.

http://spacenews.com/trump-we-are-going-to-have-the-space-force/

Wait, you're saying Trump didn't just make it up on the spot?  Some people are going to be so disappointed.
"DARPA Hard"  It ain't what it use to be.

Offline Moose

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #42 on: June 19, 2018, 07:09:31 am »
Who was claiming he made it up yesterday? He's brought it up frequently in the past, it's been covered decently every time. The sudden thing yesterday was that, after over a year of the existing DoD leadership all saying "don't do this, it's wasteful and without a comprehensive plan coordinated with Congress will produce a half-assed result" he did it anyway.

Offline sferrin

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #43 on: June 19, 2018, 07:13:50 am »
Who was claiming he made it up yesterday? He's brought it up frequently in the past, it's been covered decently every time. The sudden thing yesterday was that, after over a year of the existing DoD leadership all saying "don't do this, it's wasteful and without a comprehensive plan coordinated with Congress will produce a half-assed result" he did it anyway.

"Trump mentioned his desire to have a Space Force at four different events in recent months, and the feedback he received was mostly positive, which motivated him to get the process started sooner rather than later."

Also most outlets are treating this as if he just thought of it yesterday. 
"DARPA Hard"  It ain't what it use to be.

Offline Arjen

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #44 on: June 19, 2018, 07:48:20 am »
Also most outlets are treating this as if he just thought of it yesterday.
A revision of your choice in news sources might be appropriate.

Offline sferrin

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #45 on: June 19, 2018, 08:50:53 am »
Also most outlets are treating this as if he just thought of it yesterday.
A revision of your choice in news sources might be appropriate.

To be frank I tend to avoid the, "Oh MA GERD Drumph wants a DEATH STAR!" lunatics.  YMMV.
"DARPA Hard"  It ain't what it use to be.

Offline antigravite

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #46 on: June 19, 2018, 10:46:41 am »
Being known for his dictatorship penchant (no names given, ok?) and admiration for Russia, maybe Trump'smove was inspired by his becoming more familiar with the so-called Russian Space Forces, whatever it means, on whichever intel he receives.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Space_Forces

A.
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Offline XP67_Moonbat

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #47 on: June 19, 2018, 12:53:56 pm »
Obviously, Trump hasn't heard of Projects HOT EAGLE and SUSTAIN.
In God we trust, all others we monitor. :-p

Offline Moose

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #48 on: June 19, 2018, 02:43:03 pm »
Who was claiming he made it up yesterday? He's brought it up frequently in the past, it's been covered decently every time. The sudden thing yesterday was that, after over a year of the existing DoD leadership all saying "don't do this, it's wasteful and without a comprehensive plan coordinated with Congress will produce a half-assed result" he did it anyway.

"Trump mentioned his desire to have a Space Force at four different events in recent months, and the feedback he received was mostly positive, which motivated him to get the process started sooner rather than later."

Also most outlets are treating this as if he just thought of it yesterday.
Maybe check different outlets. Most reporting I've sen has been pointing out how long he's beating the drum, and how opposed the DoD has been. Well, that and trying to process how in god's name a sitting President could try to use the phrase "separate but equal" in a positive way.

As for "at four different events in recent months, and the feedback he received was mostly positive" yeah, he's talking about the people cheering when he's mentioned it in speeches. Which has totally happened, but it still doesn't reflect how Defense feels about it. The fact that there were no ready briefing points or official statements forthcoming from anyone immediately after the speech puts lie to the idea that this was a planned rollout. The only release I've seen came hours later, and said
Quote
"Our Policy Board will begin working on this issue, which has implications for intelligence operations for the Air Force, Army, Marines and Navy. Working with Congress, this will be a deliberate process with a great deal of input from multiple stakeholders."
Which, again, does not indicate this was a pre-planned rollout working hand-in-hand with the Pentagon, but rather he pulled the trigger suddenly and now they're doing as they're told.

Offline fredymac

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #49 on: June 19, 2018, 04:44:40 pm »
Where is the requirement for a "pre-planned rollout coordinated with DOD approval".  Especially if the DOD track record on this issue is best defined as stonewalling.

Institutionally, the Air Force will never agree to separating space activities to an independent service.  The Army and Navy will not appreciate having a new competitor for defense dollars. 

Civilian control over the military manifests itself in large measure with decisions opposed by the individual services.  Formation of a unified Department Of Defense did not come about because the Navy and Army liked the idea of surrendering their individual department level status.

The question is whether space has become so important that it can substantially determine the security of the country.  The fact that DARPA and not the Air Force is actively trying to develop means to safeguard and replenish space assets highlights the priority conflict that is forcing this issue.

Offline Moose

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #50 on: June 19, 2018, 06:57:47 pm »
Where is the requirement for a "pre-planned rollout coordinated with DOD approval".  Especially if the DOD track record on this issue is best defined as stonewalling.

Institutionally, the Air Force will never agree to separating space activities to an independent service.  The Army and Navy will not appreciate having a new competitor for defense dollars. 

Civilian control over the military manifests itself in large measure with decisions opposed by the individual services.  Formation of a unified Department Of Defense did not come about because the Navy and Army liked the idea of surrendering their individual department level status.

The question is whether space has become so important that it can substantially determine the security of the country.  The fact that DARPA and not the Air Force is actively trying to develop means to safeguard and replenish space assets highlights the priority conflict that is forcing this issue.
Nowhere I my post did I claim there was a requirement for anything he had ordered. Everything he's done so far is within his powers to do, no doubt about it, and short of the powers reserved to Congress that would actually make a new service branch happen, he can order all the study and planning he likes. I was pushing back on the notion that posters here or "the media" are overreacting to the suddenness of this announcement, and the suggestion that it was a long-planned rollout with a well-planned push behind it. It's noteworthy, and the lack of greater preparation or consensus-building ahead of time may have long-lasting effects on how, when, or if a "Space Force" happens during his term in office. And even if he had gone about it completely differently, like perhaps a Truman-like Recommendation directly to Congress, that would be worthing noting and discussing as well.

Offline Sherman Tank

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #51 on: June 19, 2018, 07:57:18 pm »
This is so not going to happen.

Offline NeilChapman

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #52 on: June 20, 2018, 02:37:29 am »
Where is the requirement for a "pre-planned rollout coordinated with DOD approval".  Especially if the DOD track record on this issue is best defined as stonewalling.

Institutionally, the Air Force will never agree to separating space activities to an independent service.  The Army and Navy will not appreciate having a new competitor for defense dollars. 

Civilian control over the military manifests itself in large measure with decisions opposed by the individual services.  Formation of a unified Department Of Defense did not come about because the Navy and Army liked the idea of surrendering their individual department level status.

The question is whether space has become so important that it can substantially determine the security of the country.  The fact that DARPA and not the Air Force is actively trying to develop means to safeguard and replenish space assets highlights the priority conflict that is forcing this issue.
Nowhere I my post did I claim there was a requirement for anything he had ordered. Everything he's done so far is within his powers to do, no doubt about it, and short of the powers reserved to Congress that would actually make a new service branch happen, he can order all the study and planning he likes. I was pushing back on the notion that posters here or "the media" are overreacting to the suddenness of this announcement, and the suggestion that it was a long-planned rollout with a well-planned push behind it. It's noteworthy, and the lack of greater preparation or consensus-building ahead of time may have long-lasting effects on how, when, or if a "Space Force" happens during his term in office. And even if he had gone about it completely differently, like perhaps a Truman-like Recommendation directly to Congress, that would be worthing noting and discussing as well.


The speech is President Trump's version of Truman's letter.  Additionally, I don't believe the Army and Navy were too keen to be subordinate to the Secretary of Defense back in '47 and '49 either. 

The concern (by Mattis) to a US Space Force seemed to be related more to additional overhead and the integration of "space support services" between the existing branches.  Basically dollars and bureaucracy, not enough of one and too much of the other.

But this is an interesting moment.  A Department that can be created from scratch in 2018/19, in the era of the defense department audit and Rapid Capabilities Office under the direction of Mattis is a unique opportunity.  There can be efficiencies, controls and management processes defined that are radically different than those used in the Army and Navy - very old bureaucracies. 

And there are good reasons to make this decision now.

From ius gentium through canon law by way of de Vitoria (a Dominican by the way) to Grotius' Mare Liberum, the concept of the 'Freedom of the Seas' is a principle most recently defined by the UNCLOS.  This 20th century agreement took 2000 years to promulgate.  The US has signed but not ratified the agreement but she does recognize this as customary international law. This agreement is an important factor in the movement of ~$20 trillion in world trade.  Even though the principle has coalesced over many centuries and is almost universally accepted we still have countries that are arbitrarily claiming 'historic rights' to waters for which they have no historic rights.  So we know that nations must be vigilant in defending basic principles.  These same principles will be contemplated when deciding how to manage space. 

Today, the space economy accounts for ~$350 billion in goods and services of which only ~$5.5 billion is for launch services (transport services). This is a fraction of the ~$20 trillion (~$850B in transport services) in world trade and only accounts for 'basic infrastructure.'  But recall that at the turn of the 19th century exports and imports across nations was below 10% of global production.  Today that figure is higher than 50%.  What changed?  Inter-european integration in the 19th century and technological advances such as commercial aviation, productivity improvements and communications in the 20th.

How is that similar to where we are today?

Through quality control, supply chain management and, ultimately, additional cost advantages through reusability, SpaceX has completely disrupted the space launch business.  The result being overwhelming US commercial space lift market share, increasing from 0 in 2011 to ~55% last year.  SpaceX launch cadence will increase in 2018, Rocket Lab will being commercial launches in 2018 and Virgin Orbit will attempt their first launch this year.  Space transport services over the next five years will be completely transformed with multiple new systems in place for human transport, heavy, medium and light cargo lift.

Plummeting costs create opportunities that weren't considered viable just 5 years ago. This is analogous to the technology advancements that reduced transaction costs for trade after World War II.  There is every reason to believe that integration and technological advances will result in exponential growth in world trade based in space over the next 50 years. 

It is imperative for the United States to look ahead to the security requirements of commerce in space.  It need look no further than 1945 and the fundamental changes that took place at the end of World War II.  For over 70 years the United States has defended the freedom of the sea - the transport of world trade.  There are myriad examples of the benefits provided by US leadership and security.  I'll provide one.  While world population has increased from less than 2.5 billion in 1945 to over 7 billion today, US security, food production and increased world trade has reduced the number of people living in extreme poverty from ~1.8 billion in 1945 to less than 700 million today.

There are two large economies today.  One, while not perfect, is based on democracy, justice, and equity, whose declaration to the world at its inception included an understanding of the intrinsic dignity of the human being stating all "are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.  That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed..."  The other is based on Marxism and Leninism, with socialism as the foundation of the law with the ultimate goal of social order and control.  An ideology responsible for ~100 million deaths over the last 100 years.

As we move forward into a new world trade dynamic that includes space we recognize this opportunity was created by the last 70 years of 'rules based order.'  But the status quo norms are being tested.  There is a question whether the rules are changing; if we are returning to a previous age of great power politics.  If that is the case, then the result, as we know from previous centuries, is 'the rules are set by he who rules.'

If you want to influence the rules in space, then one must be prepared to provide security in space.  The only question is who do you want to influence the rules?










Offline fredymac

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #53 on: June 20, 2018, 02:41:49 am »
Quote
It's noteworthy, and the lack of greater preparation or consensus-building ahead of time may have long-lasting effects on how, when, or if a "Space Force" happens during his term in office.

As I noted, there is no consensus when a bureaucracy is protecting its institutional interests.  A political consensus in the current political era is foredoomed.  Or rather, consensus is when individual politicians know the voters are watching and force them to vote against their party.  As usual, this will hinge on the RINO vote and how far they are willing to drop any remaining pretense on who they are.

Quote
This is so not going to happen.

Clearly your logic and reasoning leave little room to argue against.

Offline _Del_

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #54 on: June 20, 2018, 07:42:55 am »
Quote from: freddymac
Where is the requirement for a "pre-planned rollout coordinated with DOD approval".  Especially if the DOD track record on this issue is best defined as stonewalling.

This. There's a bipartisan push out of the Armed Forces Committee and several GAO reports detailing the current inefficiencies. It's been a 30 year discussion with little headway toward resolution.

However, it's currently being spun as Trump's off the cuff idea for astronauts in space battleships, sooo...

Offline Flyaway

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #55 on: June 20, 2018, 12:15:15 pm »
New SN article on this proposal.

Trump’s Space Force announcement could propel us to deal with space ‘Pearl Harbor’

Quote
To know whether we need a Space Force, we must start with current and future threats and how we plan to counter them. By the early 2020s, China will deploy specialized worker-bee spacecraftto clean up space debris and service existing satellites. The United States, Russia, and the European Union will do the same in a similar timeframe. My two papers in 2017and 2018explain how these spacecraft can readily be re-tasked to stalk and, at a moment’s notice, attack U.S. satellites from such close proximity that we will have no time to mount a defense, a situation that can facilitate a space Pearl Harbor.

http://spacenews.com/trumps-space-force-announcement-could-propel-us-to-deal-with-space-pearl-harbor/

Offline Moose

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #56 on: June 20, 2018, 12:20:49 pm »
The President's sudden announcement does not even align with Rep. Mike Rogers' most recent bill which aimed for a "Space Corps" created rapidly within the Department of the Air Force, and neither Rogers nor any other sponsors of his legislation were part of said announcement. In fact I've yet to see Rogers, who's been the banner-bearer of this topic for some time now, endorse the President's speech or rally behind it.

I get that some people accept President Trump's methods as "just the way he does things" and so brush off things that don't align with conventional wisdom as just being a difference style. But I'm not talking about following some Marquess of Queensbury rulebook, I'm not just criticizing him for having a different style. Getting legislation passed, particularly legislation which will include the cost and complexities of a new service branch, requires more than simply stating "we're doing this and if you're true Republicans you will vote for it otherwise you're a Rino." Returning to the Truman example, despite a well-constructed position and broad support for reform from the jump, it took two years of negotiations to produce the new, and in many ways broader than originally envisioned, Act. And the final bill was actually introduced by a member of the opposition party.

Sure, there are uninformed press members, who usually refer to every Navy ship as a "battleship," that are covering this poorly, and a lot of people are making Space Marine jokes on Twitter. But neither of those invalidates that fact that this sudden announcement was made seemingly in a vacuum, appears to have caught supporters and subordinates as well as everyone else off guard, and as of today has been accompanied with no actual push to move the process along. Those aren't great signs for a push to actually accomplish anything, they instead look like the actions of someone who wanted to put in the least amount of effort and get credit for it but hasn't actually laid the groundwork for a positive outcome.

Online marauder2048

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #57 on: June 20, 2018, 12:26:06 pm »
Quote from: freddymac
Where is the requirement for a "pre-planned rollout coordinated with DOD approval".  Especially if the DOD track record on this issue is best defined as stonewalling.

This. There's a bipartisan push out of the Armed Forces Committee and several GAO reports detailing the current inefficiencies. It's been a 30 year discussion with little headway toward resolution.

However, it's currently being spun as Trump's off the cuff idea for astronauts in space battleships, sooo...

And a separate space force was OMB's recent (Dec 2017) formal recommendation to Congress.

And according to DoD's interim report, there was supposed to have been a final report on mission
and function scope delivered last Friday as part of the independent study to
support a separate military department for space.   

DepSecDef (which commissioned the independent study)  has had working sessions (every 2-3 weeks) on space with
"consistent participants" consisting of:

 Secretary of the Air Force,
 Chief of Staff of the Air Force,
 Commander of Air Force Space Command (AFSPC), and
 Commander of Air Force Space and Missile Center (SMC).

Media coverage of this issue has been poor; only one source reported on the OMB study.

Online marauder2048

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #58 on: June 20, 2018, 12:41:40 pm »
The President's sudden announcement does not even align with Rep. Mike Rogers' most recent bill which aimed for a "Space Corps"
created rapidly within the Department of the Air Force, and neither Rogers nor any other sponsors of his legislation were part of said announcement.
In fact I've yet to see Rogers, who's been the banner-bearer of this topic for some time now, endorse the President's speech or rally behind it.

Unsurprising as the OMB study explicitly argues against the form of "Space Corps' Rogers et al. are promoting.


Offline _Del_

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #59 on: June 20, 2018, 12:57:40 pm »
I think the latest push from Rogers and Cooper as part of the NDAA 2018 is to gut several orgs, realigning orgs under Stratcomm and Space Command, and is looking at a quick and dirty USAF-subordinate "Space Corps" near-term as an interim step towards an independent arm.

I can try to dig up links if interested.

Offline fredymac

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #60 on: June 20, 2018, 03:22:36 pm »


I get that some people accept President Trump's methods as "just the way he does things" and so brush off things that don't align with conventional wisdom as just being a difference style. But I'm not talking about following some Marquess of Queensbury rulebook, I'm not just criticizing him for having a different style. Getting legislation passed, particularly legislation which will include the cost and complexities of a new service branch, requires more than simply stating "we're doing this and if you're true Republicans you will vote for it otherwise you're a Rino." Returning to the Truman example, despite a well-constructed position and broad support for reform from the jump, it took two years of negotiations to produce the new, and in many ways broader than originally envisioned, Act. And the final bill was actually introduced by a member of the opposition party.



I am reminded of the recent transfer of the US Embassy to Jerusalem.  Decades of intent and announcement substituted for action while ever expanding concerns and complications were piled on with credentialed assurances that any unilateral action would provoke catastrophe.

Letting your eyes do the talking helps clear the mind.  The Kabuki dance of process and coordination signals something is about to be postponed and buried under layers of obfuscation.  How might Shakespeare put it?  "It is a narrative proclaimed from on high, full of decorum and nuance, signifying nothing."  Of course its usually accompanied by disconsonant howls of invectives which can spoil the effect.

It has taken awhile, but slowly people start to notice.  Today, invoking the 50's is usually done in order to condemn them.  Useful though when inviting someone to play by rules that no longer apply.

Offline Moose

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #61 on: June 21, 2018, 07:30:55 am »
I don't recall 1947 being in the 50s, but then math was never my strength. If "the rule" that no longer applies is that one has to build consensus and produce legislation that is well-debated and thoughtfully constructed in order to produce a new Law, well then that's a shame.

Offline kaiserd

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #62 on: June 21, 2018, 08:21:13 am »
I don't recall 1947 being in the 50s, but then math was never my strength. If "the rule" that no longer applies is that one has to build consensus and produce legislation that is well-debated and thoughtfully constructed in order to produce a new Law, well then that's a shame.

A much more polite response than I could have managed to the risible comments above.
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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #63 on: June 21, 2018, 11:09:40 am »
I don't recall 1947 being in the 50s, but then math was never my strength. If "the rule" that no longer applies is that one has to build consensus and produce legislation that is well-debated and thoughtfully constructed in order to produce a new Law, well then that's a shame.

The '47 act is hardly a great model for thoughtfulness given that you ended up with four military air forces rather than one.

Offline fredymac

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #64 on: June 21, 2018, 01:30:14 pm »
Eventually, Charlie Brown had to turn down Lucy's offer to hold the football.  All these calls for bipartisanship mysteriously vanish when politically convenient.  There are still rules but now everyone will be playing by them rather than just one side.  I might even take up astral projection to divine the motives of those who argue against me.

Offline fightingirish

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #65 on: June 22, 2018, 10:09:21 am »
Aviation Week & Space Technology podcast: Rep. Rogers on Why the U.S. Needs a Space Corps
Quote
When President Donald Trump announced at the National Space Corps that the U.S. would pursue a Space Force, it appeared to come out of the blue.
In fact, Congress has been working its way toward that very goal, and its chief supporter in the House, Rep. Michael Rogers (R-Ala.) joins Aviation Week to explain how that might unfold.


IMHO the United States Special Operations Forces as sixth service branch would be more suitable. Just like in other countries, as for example Poland.
I prefer the U.S. Space Corps as a component of the Department of the Air Force.
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Offline bobbymike

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #66 on: July 01, 2018, 12:43:09 pm »
http://spacenews.com/army-troops-could-be-headed-to-the-space-force/

Quote
Army Space and Missile Defense Command's Brig. Gen. Tim Lawson: “Do we want to be part of the Space Force? That is yet to be determined"

WASHINGTON — If and when a new military branch for space gets off the ground, its ranks would be dominated by airmen. But Army soldiers also would have a role by virtue of much they rely on military satellites in peacetime or in war.

More than 70 percent of the Army’s major weapons and equipment need satellites to function. About 2,220 active-duty soldiers, reservists and civilians make up the “space forces” under the U.S. Army Space and Missile Defense Command/Army Forces Strategic Command headquartered at Redstone Arsenal, Alabama.

“We are the biggest users of space,” said Brig. Gen. Tim Lawson, deputy commanding general for operations at the Army Space and Missile Defense Command.
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Offline Archibald

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #67 on: July 01, 2018, 11:09:40 pm »
With that authoritarian president, all those exoplanets, and the birth of a "space force" it's official: we have entered the "Starship troopers" timeline (the movie, not the book. and yes, I enjoyed that movie and still enjoy it)

We should beef up those ABM defense around Buenos Aires...

Best line and scene from that movie



"Mobile infantry made me the man I am today" ROTFLMAO every time
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Profanity: weaker mind trying to speak forcefully

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Offline NeilChapman

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #68 on: July 06, 2018, 03:35:38 am »
Aviation Week & Space Technology podcast: Rep. Rogers on Why the U.S. Needs a Space Corps
Quote
When President Donald Trump announced at the National Space Corps that the U.S. would pursue a Space Force, it appeared to come out of the blue.
In fact, Congress has been working its way toward that very goal, and its chief supporter in the House, Rep. Michael Rogers (R-Ala.) joins Aviation Week to explain how that might unfold.


IMHO the United States Special Operations Forces as sixth service branch would be more suitable. Just like in other countries, as for example Poland.
I prefer the U.S. Space Corps as a component of the Department of the Air Force.


If we think about 'space' as we think about 'oceans' today then in future there will ultimately be several US military services represented.

The Marine Corps is mandated in US law as the 'tip of the spear'.  The Navy transports them on sea.  Perhaps the 'Space Corps' will transport them in space? 

But the first group openly providing 'security patrols' in space should be a redefined Coast Guard.  This will create the image the US wants to project that she is not 'weaponizing' space but protecting trade.  But what to call them?  Perhaps revert to Revenue Cutter Service rather than Coast Guard?  I like the idea of naming their space ships after the original cutters.

USRC Vigilant
USRC Active
USRC General Greene
USRC Scammell
USRC Argus
USRC Diligence
USRC Eagle

Great names!

I wonder what kind of deal the 'USRCS' could get on 20 BFR's and a few dozen Bigelow B330 space modules?  I'm guessing much less than one would think.

How cool would it be to have outposts in space manned by a 'USRCS'?  We couldn't call them 'Coasties' anymore.










Offline sferrin

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #69 on: July 06, 2018, 04:44:09 am »
With that authoritarian president, all those exoplanets, and the birth of a "space force" it's official: we have entered the "Starship troopers" timeline (the movie, not the book. and yes, I enjoyed that movie and still enjoy it)

We should beef up those ABM defense around Buenos Aires...

Best line and scene from that movie



"Mobile infantry made me the man I am today" ROTFLMAO every time

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Offline Grey Havoc

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #70 on: July 26, 2018, 03:21:19 am »
Death by committee for the USSF?: http://www.parabolicarc.com/2018/07/25/ndaa-story/
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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #71 on: July 26, 2018, 06:07:44 pm »
Death by committee for the USSF?: http://www.parabolicarc.com/2018/07/25/ndaa-story/


Perhaps it's smart.  Report isn't due until 8/1.  Bureaucracies need time to get their head around changing direction.  Don't need a new fight sucking up oxygen when there are so many other things to make happen before the mid-terms.

 

Offline bobbymike

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #72 on: July 31, 2018, 06:23:48 am »
https://www.defenseone.com/politics/2018/07/pentagon-create-space-force/150157/

Quote
n coming months, Defense Department leaders plan to stand up three of the four components of the new Space Force: a new combatant command for space, a new joint agency to buy satellites for the military, and a new warfighting community that draws space operators from all service branches. These sweeping changes — on par with the past decade’s establishment of cyber forces — are the part the Pentagon can do without lawmakers’ approval.
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Offline NeilChapman

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #73 on: August 04, 2018, 06:09:21 am »
Posted in SpaceX thread...

Frankly I anticipated this news would have come eight months ago.  But here it is...

https://www.defensenews.com/space/2018/08/02/one-possible-job-for-spacexs-bfr-taking-the-air-forces-cargo-in-and-out-of-space/

AMC, air transport for all services, including Space Force?



Offline Flyaway

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #74 on: August 09, 2018, 01:21:51 pm »
And the deal is done the US will have a space force.

Quote
The debate is over. The United States will have a Space Force as a separate branch of the military.

In a joint appearance at the Pentagon with Defense Secretary James Mattis on Thursday, Vice President Mike Pence laid out the Trump administration’s plan to create a U.S. Space Force. It was only seven weeks ago that President Trump directed DoD to begin the process.

The president has made it a priority to “restore America’s proud history of leadership in space,” Pence said. “Space is essential to the nation’s security and prosperity.”

https://spacenews.com/vice-president-pence-announces-first-steps-towards-creating-a-new-military-branch-for-space/

Offline TomS

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #75 on: August 09, 2018, 02:25:46 pm »
No it isn't done.  Still no congressional action to create the new service.

Offline fightingirish

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #76 on: August 09, 2018, 02:44:06 pm »
Quote
The Trump campaign is already fundraising off of Space Force
  ::)
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Offline Moose

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #77 on: August 09, 2018, 03:14:11 pm »
Why would the Space Force have Mars in it's logo, or use the Swoosh? Are they planning to put NASA under this service?

Offline TomS

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #78 on: August 09, 2018, 07:48:51 pm »
Because whoever slapped that trash together has no idea what the Space Force would do, assuming it ever gets created.  None of those logos stand any chance of becoming a real military service ensignia.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 08:51:21 pm by TomS »

Offline bobbymike

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #79 on: August 13, 2018, 07:32:46 am »
https://www.thestreet.com/technology/united-states-to-spend-8-billion-over-next-5-years-on-space-force-14679222

Quote
One of the lasting legacies of the Trump administration could be the creation of Space Force, the sixth branch of the military to defend the United States' interests in space.

Vice President Mike Pence on Thursday, Aug. 9, speaking at the Pentagon, laid out the administration's plan to combat what it says has been aggressive moves by rivals toward militarizing space.

"For many years, nations from Russia to China to North Korea and Iran have pursued weapons to jam, blind and disable our navigation and communication satellites via electronic attacks from the ground," Pence said. "But recently, our adversaries have been working to bring new weapons of war into space itself."
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Offline Richard N

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #80 on: August 17, 2018, 02:15:14 pm »
Because whoever slapped that trash together has no idea what the Space Force would do, assuming it ever gets created.  None of those logos stand any chance of becoming a real military service ensignia.

How about this logo in a photo posted by a very good friend of the administration:

"Roger Stone, longtime ally of President Donald Trump, posted a photoshopped picture on Instagram Tuesday showing himself, the president, and other Trumpworld defenders in spacesuits. But the picture shows the mock Space Force team wearing shocking insignias.

Swastikas.

They’re shown wearing Swastikas.

Judging by the imagery and the “in space no one can hear you lie” caption, the picture was most likely made by a Trump critic — but Stone decided to latch onto it at first in order to jab at the “liberal scumbags.”

Stone has deleted the picture, but screengrabs live forever:"

The picture may be unsettling to some on this forum, so I will instead provide this link to it and the above quote:  https://www.mediaite.com/online/roger-stone-deletes-photo-of-himself-and-trump-in-space-force-suits-with-swastika-patches/
« Last Edit: August 17, 2018, 06:28:12 pm by Richard N »

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #81 on: August 24, 2018, 06:39:14 pm »
I think the space force is not just conquering space.

Superiority? in space could affect air-to-air combat. Anyway, is massive resources in space major target?

Offline Grey Havoc

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #82 on: September 18, 2018, 02:51:08 am »
https://www.defenseone.com/politics/2018/09/creating-space-force-will-cost-13b-over-5-years-air-force-secretary/151312/

Something tells me that the USSF is headed for a crash and burn.

On a side note, shouldn't this topic be moved over to Space Projects or Aerospace?
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Offline TomS

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #83 on: September 18, 2018, 04:58:31 am »
https://www.defenseone.com/politics/2018/09/creating-space-force-will-cost-13b-over-5-years-air-force-secretary/151312/

Something tells me that the USSF is headed for a crash and burn.

On a side note, shouldn't this topic be moved over to Space Projects or Aerospace?

It's not about hardware, so definitely not Space Projects.  You could argue for Aerospace, but frankly this is politically contentious enough that it's probably better off in The Bar. 

Offline sferrin

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #84 on: September 18, 2018, 05:56:37 am »
https://www.defenseone.com/politics/2018/09/creating-space-force-will-cost-13b-over-5-years-air-force-secretary/151312/

Something tells me that the USSF is headed for a crash and burn.

Not to go all political but, if democrats take control, it's a virtual certainty if only because it was started under the Trump administration. They'd murder babies to jam a stick in his eye.  ;)  If he gets two terms, maybe it has enough momentum to keep it alive.  It's certainly needed. 
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Offline Moose

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #85 on: September 18, 2018, 08:35:36 am »
Could pay for a chunk of it by closing the "indefinite detention" camps, cancelling The Wall we weren't gonna pay for, and by not paying himself taxpayer money to use his own properties 1 out of every 3 days in office. Which does he want more?

Offline sferrin

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #86 on: September 18, 2018, 08:42:09 am »
Could pay for a chunk of it by closing the "indefinite detention" camps, cancelling The Wall we weren't gonna pay for, and by not paying himself taxpayer money to use his own properties 1 out of every 3 days in office. Which does he want more?

"Indefinite detention camps"?  Gitmo?  If we weren't going to pay for the wall then cancelling it doesn't save any money.  Evidence he's "paying himself taxpayer money"?  Or is he paying for services that are required anyway?
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Offline kaiserd

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #87 on: September 18, 2018, 09:54:52 am »
Could pay for a chunk of it by closing the "indefinite detention" camps, cancelling The Wall we weren't gonna pay for, and by not paying himself taxpayer money to use his own properties 1 out of every 3 days in office. Which does he want more?

"Indefinite detention camps"?  Gitmo?  If we weren't going to pay for the wall then cancelling it doesn't save any money.  Evidence he's "paying himself taxpayer money"?  Or is he paying for services that are required anyway?

This digression into partisan politics (clearly instigated by sferrin to air his own hobby-horse bull-shit political prejudices) is a terrible idea.
Stick to the topic instead?

Offline sferrin

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #88 on: September 18, 2018, 10:15:00 am »
Could pay for a chunk of it by closing the "indefinite detention" camps, cancelling The Wall we weren't gonna pay for, and by not paying himself taxpayer money to use his own properties 1 out of every 3 days in office. Which does he want more?

"Indefinite detention camps"?  Gitmo?  If we weren't going to pay for the wall then cancelling it doesn't save any money.  Evidence he's "paying himself taxpayer money"?  Or is he paying for services that are required anyway?

This digression into partisan politics (clearly instigated by sferrin to air his own hobby-horse bull-shit political prejudices) is a terrible idea.
Stick to the topic instead?

edit:  Fair enough.  Though I would argue, that at this early stage, politics is the only thing keeping the notion of a Space Force alive.  Without political support it dies.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2018, 10:34:11 am by sferrin »
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Offline bobbymike

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #90 on: September 23, 2018, 07:54:03 am »
https://www.defensenews.com/newsletters/digital-show-daily/2018/09/18/how-the-air-force-plans-to-use-space-to-project-power-in-the-21st-century-2/?utm_campaign=Socialflow+DFN&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com

Quote

NATIONAL HARBOR, Md.— As the National Defense Strategy and National Security Strategy have made clear, space is set to become a crucial war fighting domain, as nearly every operation the military conducts relies on space assets.

So when the leaders of the Air Force’s Global Strike Command, Space Command, commander in Europe and Africa and special operations head all shared a stage at the Air Force Associations annual conference to discuss operations, its no surprise they chose to focus on how the service plans to leverage space assets to project power in the 21st century.

One reason space is so important, not just to the Air Force, but all military services, is that space assets enable multidomain operations that are becoming the norm in the modern warfare. Citing the Air Force’s successful strikes against Assad-regime chemical weapons manufacturing sites in Syria in April, Gen. Tod D. Wolters, commander of U.S. Air Forces in Europe and Africa, explained the mission was successful because “we had well-vetted and thorough multidomain operations.”
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Offline bobbymike

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #91 on: October 01, 2018, 05:31:18 pm »
MITCHELL INSTITUTE Policy Papers

Organizing Spacepower: Conditions for Creating a US Space Force

http://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/a2dd91_2ff8dfe95e694f80b4139d05650843ed.pdf
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Offline bobbymike

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #93 on: October 13, 2018, 02:07:18 pm »
https://breakingdefense.com/2018/10/why-we-need-a-space-force-csiss-todd-harrison/

Quote
The Trump administration’s push to create a new military department, known as the Space Force, has generated a fair amount of skepticism and more than a few nerdy jokes. Despite being easy fodder for late-night comedians, the way in which the U.S. military and Intelligence Community are organized for space is a serious national security issue because the threats posed to U.S. space systems by other nations are real and growing. A Space Force is needed to consolidate authority and responsibility for national security space in a single chain of command; to build a robust cadre of space professionals who can develop space-centric strategy and doctrine; and to avoid the conflicts of interest inherent in the other services that have short-changed space programs for decades.

http://defense360.csis.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Harrison_Endgame_D360_.pdf
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Offline Jemiba

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Re: The US Space Force
« Reply #97 on: February 06, 2019, 04:06:52 am »
Just in case it wasn't that clear:
It's "The Bar" here, but bar fights are only a regular feature of Western Saloons.
In a bar, there's a bouncer !

The topic is "The US Space Force", so, please back to this topic !
Next step would be to turn it into a "News Only !" thread.
     >:(
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