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Which subject would you like to see for "French secret projects 3"

French VTOL 1909-1999
24 (24.7%)
French spaceplanes : Transporteur Aérospatial to Hermès
14 (14.4%)
French secret projects:  fighters, bombers and other warplanes 1935-1942
59 (60.8%)
Others
0 (0%)
French hovercraft projects : Ader to SEDAM, Bertin etc...
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 97

Author Topic: French Secret Projects 3  (Read 5866 times)

Offline JC Carbonel

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Re: French Secret Projects 3
« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2017, 05:43:16 am »
So if I summarize :

between the war aircraft (eventually annexing Swiss - and Belgian ?- designers) are at the top of the requests, followed closely by VTO. There are interrogations regarding the viability of a book on French spaceplanes and French hovercraft has not evoked anything to anyone.

That's the most hard to do for the author !

JCC

Offline sferrin

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Re: French Secret Projects 3
« Reply #31 on: October 20, 2017, 06:10:27 am »
I would have voted for the Spaceplanes too but you can only vote once so VTOL it was.
"DARPA Hard"  It ain't what it use to be.

Offline Arjen

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Re: French Secret Projects 3
« Reply #32 on: October 20, 2017, 06:31:02 am »
[...]
 French hovercraft has not evoked anything to anyone.
[...]
I would be very interested in a book about Jean Bertin's Aérotrain projects, or indeed any other French hovercraft projects.

Offline sferrin

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Re: French Secret Projects 3
« Reply #33 on: October 20, 2017, 06:35:51 am »
[...]
 French hovercraft has not evoked anything to anyone.
[...]
I would be very interested in a book about Jean Bertin's Aérotrain projects, or indeed any other French hovercraft projects.

Maybe there isn't enough for an entire book on French work.  What about a book that covered the more interesting projects from say, France, the US, the UK, and the USSR/Russia?
"DARPA Hard"  It ain't what it use to be.

Offline Arjen

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Re: French Secret Projects 3
« Reply #34 on: October 20, 2017, 06:57:41 am »
Then again...
I'm fairly certain USSR/Russia and the UK alone would merit fat books on hovercraft each. I suspect research about hovercraft in the USA and France might throw up some nice surprises as well.
In 1915/1916, Dagobert Müller von Thomamühl of the Austro-Hungarian Navy constructed a torpedo-carrying hovercraft - see images found here https://forum.worldofwarships.eu/topic/3625-kuk-versuchsgleitboot-first-ever-build-hovercraft/ - and lots of other people in verious countries tried their hands at hovercraft since. A book on international hovercraft highlights might need a wheelbarrow to schlepp to your reading table.

Offline Hood

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Re: French Secret Projects 3
« Reply #35 on: October 20, 2017, 07:16:22 am »
There are book on British hovercraft but I'm not sure how far they delve into unbuilt projects, I suspect there are many. Its a niche market but you might get some takers.

I think a 1930s-40s volume would still throw up much that might not have reached English language books before, especially for non-fighter types.
It would probably sell the best to the wider readership and would complement the other WW2 era secret project books the best.
A VTOL book would be interesting, but again many of the fighter proposals are well known (Bill Rose's book) and of course your other two volumes have covered much of this ground.
A space projects book would be interesting too with perhaps more scope for new research?

Offline JC Carbonel

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Re: French Secret Projects 3
« Reply #36 on: October 20, 2017, 07:19:41 am »
I completely agree with you but for two points :
- the objective of this post is to help me finding what to suggest to Crécy for French secret projects volume 3
- then there is the question of archives : there is a lot of material out there (believe me , I know!) , but not all belongs to free archives. And it is not just a question of ethics : to write an interesting book one cannot just compile three-view drawings, one needs data, anecdotes to flesh up the stories those drawings. For this access to industrial or personal archives is required, interviews with former designers is even better. One cannot just download a bunch of drawnings from Internet. And while I know to which doors knocking in France, I just don't have this kind of access for Sweden, Russia, USA etc...

Note : Even with my efforts to flesh out the research for french secret projects 1, I have been criticized for just that : compiling drawings without any meaningful stories behind them.

JCC

Offline athpilot

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Re: French Secret Projects 3
« Reply #37 on: January 13, 2018, 06:33:12 am »
Hi Mr. Carbonel! Today I received my copy of French Secret Projects 2: it´s really great and well researched. One of the most interesting items to me is the time when the 3rd Reich tried to use the french aviation industry for their own pusposes. This is not only a matter of aircrafts but also of the economic concepts of nazi-Germany. We know that the germans intended to cooperat and trade with their occupied araes in the west: they wanted to install some kind of free-trade zone under their supremacy. From Norway to France and Benelux to Italy. But we do not know much about how this should particularly work. And the whole east (Poland, Soviet Union) was treated as a zone for pure exploitation. So this is one more thing I would like to see a third Volume that covers the timeframe until (or better: including) the german occupation.

Cheers

Online newsdeskdan

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Re: French Secret Projects 3
« Reply #38 on: January 13, 2018, 08:12:47 am »
Hi Mr. Carbonel! Today I received my copy of French Secret Projects 2: it´s really great and well researched. One of the most interesting items to me is the time when the 3rd Reich tried to use the french aviation industry for their own pusposes. This is not only a matter of aircrafts but also of the economic concepts of nazi-Germany. We know that the germans intended to cooperat and trade with their occupied araes in the west: they wanted to install some kind of free-trade zone under their supremacy. From Norway to France and Benelux to Italy. But we do not know much about how this should particularly work. And the whole east (Poland, Soviet Union) was treated as a zone for pure exploitation. So this is one more thing I would like to see a third Volume that covers the timeframe until (or better: including) the german occupation.

Cheers

You mean this sort of thing (see attached). Yes, that would be good.  :)

Offline Archibald

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Re: French Secret Projects 3
« Reply #39 on: January 13, 2018, 08:29:26 am »
Frecnh spaceplaaaaaaaaaaanes ! Alas, it only ranks 3rd so far. Dang.
Conservatoire de l'Air et de l'Espace d'Aquitaine
http://www.caea.info/en/plan.php

Profanity: weaker mind trying to speak forcefully

Political correctness: just bury your head in the sand for the sake of appeasement and "peace for our time"
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Offline athpilot

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Re: French Secret Projects 3
« Reply #40 on: January 13, 2018, 01:22:38 pm »
Hi Mr. Carbonel! Today I received my copy of French Secret Projects 2: it´s really great and well researched. One of the most interesting items to me is the time when the 3rd Reich tried to use the french aviation industry for their own pusposes. This is not only a matter of aircrafts but also of the economic concepts of nazi-Germany. We know that the germans intended to cooperat and trade with their occupied araes in the west: they wanted to install some kind of free-trade zone under their supremacy. From Norway to France and Benelux to Italy. But we do not know much about how this should particularly work. And the whole east (Poland, Soviet Union) was treated as a zone for pure exploitation. So this is one more thing I would like to see a third Volume that covers the timeframe until (or better: including) the german occupation.

Cheers

You mean this sort of thing (see attached). Yes, that would be good.  :)

Wow! Quiet interesting! Where did you found this?

Online newsdeskdan

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Re: French Secret Projects 3
« Reply #41 on: January 13, 2018, 02:12:49 pm »
Hi Mr. Carbonel! Today I received my copy of French Secret Projects 2: it´s really great and well researched. One of the most interesting items to me is the time when the 3rd Reich tried to use the french aviation industry for their own pusposes. This is not only a matter of aircrafts but also of the economic concepts of nazi-Germany. We know that the germans intended to cooperat and trade with their occupied araes in the west: they wanted to install some kind of free-trade zone under their supremacy. From Norway to France and Benelux to Italy. But we do not know much about how this should particularly work. And the whole east (Poland, Soviet Union) was treated as a zone for pure exploitation. So this is one more thing I would like to see a third Volume that covers the timeframe until (or better: including) the german occupation.

Cheers

You mean this sort of thing (see attached). Yes, that would be good.  :)

Wow! Quiet interesting! Where did you found this?

It's from a CIOS report written by Major John W Logan of the USAAC and Arthur Edgar Woodward-Nutt of MAP.

Offline athpilot

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Re: French Secret Projects 3
« Reply #42 on: January 13, 2018, 02:28:27 pm »
Hi Mr. Carbonel! Today I received my copy of French Secret Projects 2: it´s really great and well researched. One of the most interesting items to me is the time when the 3rd Reich tried to use the french aviation industry for their own pusposes. This is not only a matter of aircrafts but also of the economic concepts of nazi-Germany. We know that the germans intended to cooperat and trade with their occupied araes in the west: they wanted to install some kind of free-trade zone under their supremacy. From Norway to France and Benelux to Italy. But we do not know much about how this should particularly work. And the whole east (Poland, Soviet Union) was treated as a zone for pure exploitation. So this is one more thing I would like to see a third Volume that covers the timeframe until (or better: including) the german occupation.

Cheers

You mean this sort of thing (see attached). Yes, that would be good.  :)

Wow! Quiet interesting! Where did you found this?

It's from a CIOS report written by Major John W Logan of the USAAC and Arthur Edgar Woodward-Nutt of MAP.

Thanx a lot! Does the document say anything about the procederes of procurement? Carbonel mentions for example the Me 164 which the Messerschmitt AG gave to the french for further developement. But the french did not take it too seriuos and procrastinated it until there was no use for such a courierplane anymore. This could be some kind of resistence. These kind of things are very interesting (to me).

Online newsdeskdan

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Re: French Secret Projects 3
« Reply #43 on: January 13, 2018, 03:34:39 pm »
Hi Mr. Carbonel! Today I received my copy of French Secret Projects 2: it´s really great and well researched. One of the most interesting items to me is the time when the 3rd Reich tried to use the french aviation industry for their own pusposes. This is not only a matter of aircrafts but also of the economic concepts of nazi-Germany. We know that the germans intended to cooperat and trade with their occupied araes in the west: they wanted to install some kind of free-trade zone under their supremacy. From Norway to France and Benelux to Italy. But we do not know much about how this should particularly work. And the whole east (Poland, Soviet Union) was treated as a zone for pure exploitation. So this is one more thing I would like to see a third Volume that covers the timeframe until (or better: including) the german occupation.

Cheers

You mean this sort of thing (see attached). Yes, that would be good.  :)

Wow! Quiet interesting! Where did you found this?

It's from a CIOS report written by Major John W Logan of the USAAC and Arthur Edgar Woodward-Nutt of MAP.

Thanx a lot! Does the document say anything about the procederes of procurement? Carbonel mentions for example the Me 164 which the Messerschmitt AG gave to the french for further developement. But the french did not take it too seriuos and procrastinated it until there was no use for such a courierplane anymore. This could be some kind of resistence. These kind of things are very interesting (to me).

I haven't studied it exhaustively by any means but I know of at least two CIOS reports on German exploitation of the French aviation industry - one dealing exclusively with Paris and one with the rest of France. On cursory inspection neither of them makes any reference to an Me 164. Caudron worked extensively for Messerschmitt on numerous types but that one isn't mentioned. Both reports give details of the procedures under which the French worked for the Germans. I must admit, I'm not aware of any book which gives a good account of French wartime collaboration with the Germans on aircraft development and manufacture. Is there one?

Offline JC Carbonel

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Re: French Secret Projects 3
« Reply #44 on: January 14, 2018, 01:38:37 am »
If I remember correctly the information on the MeC164 was sourced from the Caudron book by Lela presse (which was loaned to me but which I don't have now so I cannot check). But mention of the MeC164 appeared earlier in William Green works (RAF Flying Review) and even earlier in the AI(2)G "New and projected types" report (again from memory).

JCC