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Author Topic: Belgium's quest to replace their F-16 fleet  (Read 7787 times)

Offline Michel Van

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Re: Belgium's quest to replace their F-16 fleet
« Reply #45 on: December 28, 2017, 01:22:20 am »
Didn't Dassault and the French made a very similar offer ?  :o
I mean, if you listen to these two, they are going to offload so much billions of euros into Belgium industry and economy, the country GDP is going to skyrocket, perhaps to China level...

Yes they have, a TWENTY BILLION EURO Package ! yes you read right Dassault want to invest 20 billion into Belgium if they buy Rafale fighter
Over period of twenty years and creating 5000 jobs Belgium high tech engineers 
like a spare parts center for Dassault Falcon private jets in Belgium

Oh by the way
The Belgium will pay four billion for 34 new aircraft and Dassault want to invest twenty billion ?


Sources:

In english 
http://deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws.english/News/1.3120458

Nice analysis of situation in flemish language
https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2017/12/27/vijf-redenen-waarom-ons-land-maar-beter--geen--franse-gevechtsvl/

Google translation
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=nl&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.vrt.be%2Fvrtnws%2Fnl%2F2017%2F12%2F27%2Fvijf-redenen-waarom-ons-land-maar-beter--geen--franse-gevechtsvl%2F&edit-text=
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Offline TomcatViP

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Re: Belgium's quest to replace their F-16 fleet
« Reply #46 on: December 28, 2017, 01:47:32 am »
(cross posting - sry)

"Trop belle pour être vraie"*: Belgian MoD skeptical on Dassault last offer

Quote
Le ministre belge de la Défense Steven Vandeput n’a pas fait montre d’ouverture mercredi vis-à-vis de l’offre française pour les avions de chasse Rafale, la jugeant "trop belle pour être vraie". "Le lobbying tourne à plein régime, c’est clair", a-t-il commenté.

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Belgian Defense Minister Steven Vandeput did not show any enthusiasm on Wednesday with regard to the [Dassault] offer for Rafale fighter jets, saying it was "too good to be true". "Lobbying is running at full speed, it's clear," he said.


Source:
DH.be

*Too good to be true
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 01:52:40 am by TomcatViP »

Offline gTg

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Re: Belgium's quest to replace their F-16 fleet
« Reply #47 on: January 01, 2018, 05:31:08 am »
The strange French offer only makes things muddier.
As much as i like the Rafale, this offer is just to stir intra-Belgian issues up. 

I honestly do not understand why all this fake fuzz is made, just to pretend there is a selection.

Half of BeNeLux Air Force is committed to the F-35, Belgium has to simply buy the second half.
And there are the B61, another unchangeable situation...

Killing NATO and going full on EU nuclear power to replace it, would be the only scenario where not buying F-35 makes sense. 
But this is another topic and probably only relevant post F-35. Or are they playing on time, hoping NATO falls within the current Potus term?



Offline lastdingo

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Re: Belgium's quest to replace their F-16 fleet
« Reply #48 on: January 01, 2018, 05:52:25 am »
Belgium's public debt is at 105% down from 138% in '93. They shouldn't maintain a fast jet component at all in their armed forces. Nor do they need a navy.
NATO doesn't need some three dozen fast jets from Belgium. A single good mechanised brigade capable of self-deploying to Warsaw in three days and another capable of deploying in two weeks would be plenty contribution to NATO security.

Offline GTX

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Re: Belgium's quest to replace their F-16 fleet
« Reply #49 on: January 03, 2018, 10:57:09 am »
Quote
Vandeput Warns that French Offer for F-16 Successor is 'Too Good to Be True'
(Source: De Standaard; published Dec 27, 2017)
By Peter De Lobel (Published in Dutch; unofficial translation by D-A.com)

France is making every effort to give its Rafale fighter every opportunity. After the French government already promised an economic return of 4 billion, it is now talking of even 20 billion. But according to Minister of Defense Steven Vandeput (N-VA), this is mainly proof that the lobbying machine is running at full speed.

Vandeput cannot understand the increase in France’s promised return on investment. “The French offer is too good to be true. The lobbying is running at full speed, that is now clear, but we have opted for a straightforward and objective process through the RfGP. It truly is a pity that France is taking a different route. The claims that their offer did not fit within our process are simply incorrect. The criteria are clear. Period.”

The federal government has not set up the way in which France is putting pressure on the Belgian media, including an Opinion piece contributed by the French Minister of Defense. France did not reply via the established procedure of the Belgian government for the replacement of the F-16s. For the F-35 and the Eurofighter, the American and British governments responded with a bulky file. France sent a letter consisting of 3 A4-sized pages, in which it mentioned a collaboration around a new European fighter plane, together with Germany.

Since then, nothing much has moved on the French side, according to the opinions voiced within the government and the Defense establishment. "French bid is a hollow bid. They do not have timeline, no program, no answers," is what top military officials are saying off the record.

According to De Tijd, France could now compensate the full purchase amount. As to why France replied outside the Belgian procedure, it now says that, otherwise, it would not be possible to offer 100% economic compensation. However, this raises the question of why there was first talk of 4 billion euros and that now suddenly increases fivefold to 20 billion euros. “It's all about a desperate attempt from the sidelines,” can be heard in the government.

Nevertheless, the federal team has not been speaking with the same voice in the past few months. Prime Minister Charles Michel (MR) has a good relation with French President Emmanuel Macron and feels little about sending people out on cold walks.

Minister of Defense Steven Vandeput (N-VA) sees no solution to the replacement of the F-16 in the French proposal. It is best to talk about a collaboration for a new aircraft, but not for the deadline of 2023, when the first F-16s are taken out of circulation, because it will be unachievable.

Offline cluttonfred

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Re: Belgium's quest to replace their F-16 fleet
« Reply #50 on: January 03, 2018, 11:35:32 am »
There were similar shenanigans about a dozen years ago when the governments of the key Airbus countries pressured Cargolux and the Luxembourg authorities to support a switch to the then (and now) unflown A380 freighter variant.  It made absolutely no sense technically or financially since every aspect of the Cargolux operation was designed around the Boeing 747 freighters they flew, right down to the model of forklift they used.  It didn't hurt that the 747 was originally designed as military freighter (lost to the C-5 Galaxy), hence the swing-up nose and raised flight deck.  The political pressure couldn't change the numbers, so instead Cargolux joined JAL Cargo as one of the launch customers for the B747-8F.  Here is the B747-8F prototype in Cargolux service (I believe that it was originally painted in Cargolux livery one side and JAL Cargo livery on the other).

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Offline Dragon029

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Re: Belgium's quest to replace their F-16 fleet
« Reply #51 on: January 20, 2018, 01:23:03 am »
http://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/belgium-f-35-joint-strike-fighter-aircraft

Quote
WASHINGTON, JAN. 18, 2018 - The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to Belgium of thirty-four (34) F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Conventional Take Off and Landing aircraft for an estimated cost of $6.53 billion.  The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale today.

Offline Michel Van

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Re: Belgium's quest to replace their F-16 fleet
« Reply #52 on: January 20, 2018, 06:21:56 am »
http://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/belgium-f-35-joint-strike-fighter-aircraft

Quote
WASHINGTON, JAN. 18, 2018 - The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to Belgium of thirty-four (34) F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Conventional Take Off and Landing aircraft for an estimated cost of $6.53 billion.  The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale today.

Good news
The American side is ready for the deal, unfortunate Belgium is not

After series of political scandal is Belgium national politic very unstable
For moment the Greens try to provoke a new political Scandal against State Secretary Theo Francken (N-VA)
The majority coalition party N-VA menaces to leave government, what would let to new Election for Parlament in 2018.
paradoxically would lead to situation no one Belgium politicians want

The Walloon mobster (socialist), Christ Democrat and Greens would face defeat, even extinction as Political party
The Flemish Mobster and Greens face the same problem
Then is the rise of Belgium Communist in vacuum that the Socialist & Green left
Oh that would be a hell of coalition talks between Flemish Nationalist, Liberals, Communist and remains of Christ Democrat parties

means in that case the decision for F-16 successor would delay to around 2020...
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Offline Dreamfighter

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Re: Belgium's quest to replace their F-16 fleet
« Reply #53 on: January 20, 2018, 03:00:36 pm »
After series of political scandal is Belgium national politic very unstable

Don´t exaggerate, I´m sure you remember or know about much worse situations.

For moment the Greens try to provoke a new political Scandal against State Secretary Theo Francken (N-VA)

One might say that is personal interpretation / political viewpoint.

The Walloon mobster (socialist)... The Flemish Mobster

If you always refer to socialist parties SP-A & PS as "The Mafia /Mob", you then could call the christian-democrats CDN-V & CDH "Angels, Demons & Pedofiles", green parties Green and Ecolo the "Back To The Stone-Agers or "Mars Attacks", liberals MR "Multinationals´Representatives, and N-VA will be "North-Vietnamese Army"
"Neue Flämisch-Niederdeutsche (Sturm)Abteilung". Oh, and Trump of course becomes KGB-mole "Yuri".


Maybe keep to the point of the F-16 replacement in this topic and leave politics aside?
« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 03:07:37 pm by Dreamfighter »

Offline martinbayer

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Re: Belgium's quest to replace their F-16 fleet
« Reply #54 on: January 22, 2018, 07:06:59 am »
Maybe keep to the point of the F-16 replacement in this topic and leave politics aside?

I second that.

Martin
Would be marching to the beat of his own drum, if he didn't detest marching to any drumbeat at all so much.

Offline Archibald

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Re: Belgium's quest to replace their F-16 fleet
« Reply #55 on: January 22, 2018, 09:10:44 am »
Listen, I say this as Frenchman and Dassault enthusiast (lucid, however)

Screw politics,
Screw Rafale,
Screw Typhoon
Screw F-35 flaws and qualities,

Belgium is a free country, free of its choice, so if they want F-35 for their Air Force, then I'm fine with it.

LET IT GO, Belgium, LET IT GO. assume yourself and your choices.



Let it gooooooooo, let it gooooooo...
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 09:16:30 am by Archibald »
Conservatoire de l'Air et de l'Espace d'Aquitaine - Bordeaux - Mérignac / Dassault aviation museum
http://www.caea.info/en/plan.php

Offline TomcatViP

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Re: Belgium's quest to replace their F-16 fleet
« Reply #56 on: January 22, 2018, 09:36:12 am »
The greatest irony is that Dassault will benefits from a Belgian buy of F-35 (even if  Typhoon win - there is always something to learn). So Dassault and other industrial traditionally associated  with  Fr will gain some knowledge, just like what they did when they lost against the F-16, inheriting radar tech and others for example.
So, obviously a loss won't taste as good as a direct order of a French branded product for most, but in the end, many realist will see this as a good opportunity for the industry to rebound in a better position...

Offline Michel Van

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Re: Belgium's quest to replace their F-16 fleet
« Reply #57 on: January 22, 2018, 10:15:57 am »

The Walloon mobster (socialist)... The Flemish Mobster

If you always refer to socialist parties SP-A & PS as "The Mafia /Mob"...
...Maybe keep to the point of the F-16 replacement in this topic and leave politics aside?

Sorry, but how you can call a Political party, that was involve in every corruption scandal of Kingdom, commit Murder and escape criminal prosecution ?
Special, if they are the one who responsible to buy the stuff for Military in over 30 years...
oh i not even mention Vanden Boeynants in that history !

We can discuss technology, the benefit of the model, advantages & disadvantages, pro and contras.
But let face it, in the F-16 replacement, play only one thing a important role: POLITICS 
why you think this in "The Bar" Section ?

Welkom to harsh reality called Belgium 



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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Belgium's quest to replace their F-16 fleet
« Reply #58 on: January 22, 2018, 10:17:42 am »
It didn't hurt that the 747 was originally designed as military freighter (lost to the C-5 Galaxy), hence the swing-up nose and raised flight deck.

Erm! the Boeing offering to the XC-X was this below, nothing like the 747 configuration
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Offline gTg

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Re: Belgium's quest to replace their F-16 fleet
« Reply #59 on: January 22, 2018, 11:46:30 pm »

The Walloon mobster (socialist)... The Flemish Mobster

If you always refer to socialist parties SP-A & PS as "The Mafia /Mob"...
...Maybe keep to the point of the F-16 replacement in this topic and leave politics aside?

Sorry, but how you can call a Political party, that was involve in every corruption scandal of Kingdom, commit Murder and escape criminal prosecution ?
Special, if they are the one who responsible to buy the stuff for Military in over 30 years...
oh i not even mention Vanden Boeynants in that history !

We can discuss technology, the benefit of the model, advantages & disadvantages, pro and contras.
But let face it, in the F-16 replacement, play only one thing a important role: POLITICS 
why you think this in "The Bar" Section ?

Welkom to harsh reality called Belgium

Michel, yes EVERYTHING is politics in our country, unfortunately there is no way around.
I'm as frustrated by it as you are, however there is no need to manifest it in every single post.
Especially not using the kind of language you do... and manifesting your own political orientation in all of this. 
This is a Belgian internal problem, no need to annoy our fellow plane enthusiasts with it.
If they are really interested in the details, they can read it up elsewhere. Bringing up old Belgian stories doesn't really contribute a lot.
I think we should limit the "classic Belgian political struggles" to the bare minimum, out of respect for this forum.
We may clarify some things about the selection process that may be relevant, if it's really needed.