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Belgium's quest to replace their F-16 fleet

Michel Van

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The Belgium Air-force got aging fleet of 54 F-16
Who reach age of forty years.
Now the Belgium Government look a Replacement.
And wants to buy 34 new fighter aircraft from 2023 to 2028 to replace the F-16
An initial amount of approximately 3.573 billion euros is provided for the purchase.

They had five candidate:

Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet.
Saab Gripen E
Dassault Rafale
Airbus Eurofighter Typhoon
Lockheed-Martin F-35

Boeing and Saab are not taking part.
according Belga media, they not respond to the request for government proposal, sent by the Belgium Ministry of Defense.

Boeing gave press statment on issue:
in short "that they do not see the opportunity to compete"

Saab follow also, as Swedish government officials, let know in a press release.
There issue is Belgium demands to drop nuclear weapons from Gripen E under NATO operations.

Buying Airbus Eurofighter or Lockheed-Martin F-35
Are lambasted by Belgium media, politicians and Military
Do the Austrian Eurofighter scandal and Issue with German and Spain Eurofighter
Rise question about usability of this plane and Cost overruns and extrem maintaining cost.
Also Rumors about corruption in Austrian Eurofighter deal is a issue.

The Belgium official estimate 80 million dollars per F-35
US experts warning about cost goes up to over 140 million dollar for one F-35
and about escalating maintaining cost similar to Eurofighter.
Next to that Belgium journalist pointing on Lockheed past on corruption
what give under present corruption scandals in Belgium politic,
a quite negative view on F-35 and Eurofighter.

Dassault Rafale
is for moment "less problematic" candidate for Belgium new fighter


Source in Dutch language
http://deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws/binnenland/2.41049?eid=1.3021781
 

gTg

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I do not understand why we keep wasting money on a bogus selection, and do not buy outright the F-35.
As if we could buy anything else to hang the B-61s on.

In my personal view, Gripen would be more than sufficient. If it's good enough for countries in the East, who are much closer to the potential enemy, it should be good for Belgium. I like the fixed price guarantees the Swedes can provide, and it should be by far the cheapest option. This would permit BDF to have some € left for other assets. I consider F-35 a gamble from a cost point of view and complete overkill for BDF.

The corruption point is a bit silly as well, as we are stuck for other reasons with buying F-35.
If anything else than F-35 wins, THAT would be suspicious and smelling corruption.
I have no hope that reason prevails, seeing first hand every day how tax money is burned in this country.
 

Michel Van

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The Saab Gripen E would be perfect choice for BDF
Sadly, the Swede have "Moral Issue" with NATO nuclear determent.

What surprise me is that Boeing lack of Interest for Offer by Belgium for 34 F/A-18 Super Hornets.

on F-35A current cost are $95 Million/Unit, already higher as cost estimated by Belgium Government.
Who calculate with $80 Million/Unit.
if BDF get F-35 that will reduce the Fleet under 30 Fighters
because there is budget limits to 3.573 billion euros

From this point of view would be the Dassault Rafale, the best bargain with $74 Million/unit.
 

Dragon029

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Michel Van said:
on F-35A current cost are $95 Million/Unit, already higher as cost estimated by Belgium Government.
Who calculate with $80 Million/Unit.
if BDF get F-35 that will reduce the Fleet under 30 Fighters
because there is budget limits to 3.573 billion euros
$95 million / unit was for LRIP 10 which is already signed and gone; LRIP 11 will be around $90m and it will be signed later this year, well before Belgium selected a victor. LRIP 12 is expected to be $88m, LRIP 13 is set to be $85m, LRIP 14 is meant to be about $80m. AFAIK LRIP 14 will see jets delivered in 2022 or 2023, which is when Belgium wants their fighters delivered.
 

gTg

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Michel Van said:
The Saab Gripen E would be perfect choice for BDF
Sadly, the Swede have "Moral Issue" with NATO nuclear determent.
Are the NATO B-61 considered strategic or tactical weapons?
I find it already weird to have them on F-16 to go East, especially from Belgium, having to overfly all of Europe.
It only made sense when the front line was still in Germany.
If NATO would shift them East, like to Poland for example, that would be a nice workaround for buying Gripen.

Michel Van said:
What surprise me is that Boeing lack of Interest for Offer by Belgium for 34 F/A-18 Super Hornets.
Are the B-61 integrated with the F/A-18 E/F? Or would Belgium have to pay for it?
Again, moving the nukes out of country would make them an option again.

However, reading the RFP scenarios, it seems to me F-35 is what they want anyway.
 

Michel Van

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Belgium got 10-30 nuclear weapons stored in Kleine Brogel Air Base.
all of them gravity B-61-3 and B-61-4 warheads label as "Non-strategic" (45 to 150 KT TNT)
that NATO bla bla bla for Tactical strike Nuke.

Under NATO nuclear weapons sharing program, means the USA provide Nukes to Belgium, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands and Turkey !
those "non-nuclear" NATO states are allowed practicing, handling, and delivering the U.S. nuclear bombs,
and adapting non-U.S. warplanes to deliver U.S. nuclear bombs.

but US is not stupid to give them nukes like that, they are protected with Permissive Action Links codes.
and without those codes from Pentagon or NATO HQ, the bombs will not work.


by the way
NATO Strategic Concept is commitment to deploying nuclear weapons in Europe,
to maintain the "minimum level sufficient to preserve peace and stability"...
therefor 150 of those "Non-strategic" nukes stored in six sites in Europe
for moment the B-61 undergoes refurbishing and repairs.
 

gTg

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Thanks for the clarification Michel Van.
Still the whole thing looks like a political show.

Article 5 and the IC/SLBM's that go with it are the real deterrence in my eyes.

Lets hope the F-35 turn out as cheap as promised.
 

BAROBA

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The F-35 was already sold a long time ago to Belgium.
First the F-104, then the F-16. The politicians of Belgium didn't have to "think" hard to make that choice.

Corruption or not (Most likely most of them are corrupted), the Belgians love words like 'stealth' and '5-generation'.
So the other contestants did stand much of a chance to win.
 

Michel Van

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BAROBA said:
The F-35 was already sold a long time ago to Belgium.
First the F-104, then the F-16. The politicians of Belgium didn't have to "think" hard to make that choice.

Corruption or not (Most likely most of them are corrupted), the Belgians love words like 'stealth' and '5-generation'.
So the other contestants did stand much of a chance to win.

There Two fractions in this game Military and Politicians:

The Military knows what they want: A fighter bomber that works

The Belgian Politicians don't care about 'stealth' and '5-generation'
They only care about "How much is Lockheed-Martin willing to pay them ?"
Because Belgium has a rich tradition of political corruption and embezzlement

like Premier Paul Vanden Boeynants got "contribution" from Dassault for buying Mirage Jet Fighter
or how the Socialist party executive got rich with every military contract
Like F-16 deal or Agusta helicopters (nearly unusable combat helicopter)
in 1995 the Socialist party executives ended up in court for corruption and embezzlement

And today ?
In Belgium settle the dust after newest corruption and embezzlement scandal and Political crisis
Again the Socialist party executive and functionaries enrich them self.
Deepest low point is affaire of the Socialist Ex-mayor of Brussels Yvan Mayeur
He Embezzlement money from a help organization
That care for homeless people and poorest of poorest in Brussels...

The Political parties broke there coalition contracts with "The Italian Mob"
That new label for the Socialist parties and in survey result they down to 1.2%
The New Left in Belgium are the Communist Parties with over 39% in survey result in Walloonia

This reset the Belgium's quest to replace there F-16 fleet
For the moment any Aircraft Manufacture will have difficulties to give a "contribution" to Belgium Politicians
 

Archibald

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The most absurd part of the story is free fall nukes are obsoletes. Seriously, this is relic from the 50's, when F-100s practiced toss-bombing. PGMs, cruise missiles, gliding bombs, GPS, have happened since then.
 

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Flight International's article on the Swedish pull-out didn't mention nukes at all. It said that their problem was Belgium's requirement for a government to government operational support contract, which would need 'a foreign policy mandate that doesn't exist'. That might involve the nukes, but sounds rather wider - the Swedish government effectively contractually committing itself to support any operation Belgium joins, no matter Swedish opinion. OTOH Sweden has no problem with SAAB handling sales to other NATO countries such as Hungary.

https://www-flightglobal-com.btglss.net/news/articles/gripen-withdrawal-narrows-belgian-fighter-contest-439463/

Also in Flight, RAF signs new support contract intended to bring Eurofighter support costs down to F-16 levels.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/uk-to-drive-down-typhoon-operating-costs-to-match-f-439514/?CMPID=sf99443604

WRT the Austrian issues, I'm having trouble taking them seriously. It was open knowledge what the operational status of Eurofighter was when the Austrians bought it (not too different to the F-35 today) so if they're claiming they were defrauded by smart Eurofighter salesmen it does not say good things about the professionalism of the Luftstreitkrafte's procurement arm. I suspect the actual issue is Eurofighter development hasn't followed the expected path (due to post Cold-War fleet number cuts) and there just isn't the P1 to P3E standard upgrade path/mass remanufacturing programme the Austrians may have planned on using, so they're left with early standard aircraft, no clear/cheap way forward, and looking for someone to blame.
 

red admiral

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DWG said:
WRT the Austrian issues, I'm having trouble taking them seriously. It was open knowledge what the operational status of Eurofighter was when the Austrians bought it (not too different to the F-35 today) so if they're claiming they were defrauded by smart Eurofighter salesmen it does not say good things about the professionalism of the Luftstreitkrafte's procurement arm. I suspect the actual issue is Eurofighter development hasn't followed the expected path (due to post Cold-War fleet number cuts) and there just isn't the P1 to P3E standard upgrade path/mass remanufacturing programme the Austrians may have planned on using, so they're left with early standard aircraft, no clear/cheap way forward, and looking for someone to blame.

Not sure about the development path being an issue. Austria seems to have zero interest in funding any upgrades. The main problem is that combat aircraft are expensive and that Austria just doesn't want to pay.
 

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Re: Eurofighter costs, its interesting that its BAE System and Leonardo who are the main contractors for the RAF and not Airbus/Eurofighter GmbH and they seem to be finding more efficiency. One can't help but feel Airbus is kind of lost when it comes to the military support customer, Atlas is another fiasco and so I can't really take seriously talk about a future Franco-German fighter. I just don't think Airbus can do it without a lot of hand-holding from Dassault or BAE.

Re: Belgian replacement, I can't see there being many options in that list to beat the F-35. Rafale possibly but its notable that its failed to secure any European buyers so far and Eurofighter also seems unlikely given shenanigans elsewhere. With many Western NATO nations buying F-35 its a hard call not to simply follow the crowd.
 

Michel Van

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On the Swedish pull-out
I repeat the Belgium press, who got well inform from Belgium officials
That Swede not respond to the request for government proposal
follow by Belgium official notice, that Swedish government officials, let know in a press release.
they not support the issue, because Belgium demands to drop nuclear weapons from Gripen E under NATO operations.


On Austrian Eurofighter
I follow some time the Affaire, they have some issue with Eurofighter
Like problem with overpriced spare part (like Self-locking Nut for 29019 euro PER PIECE)
are issues with Fighter manufacture quality by "Eurofighter Jagdflugzeug GmbH"

Since February 2017 run a investigations by German and Austrian ministry of justice
against Airbus Defence and Space, the accusation:

-Suspicion of malicious and deceptive deception in Eurofighter deal for Germany and Austria
-Suspicion of corruption and defraud in Eurofighter deal for Austria.

The Austrian prosecutor accused Airbus-boss Thomas Enders of fraud in this case
and demand of Airbus Defence and Space for 1.1 billon euro damages.

Also has on 6 July 2017 the Austrian Government announced, the retirement of there 15 Eurofighters.
 

Michel Van

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GTX said:
Michel Van said:
Like problem with overpriced spare part (like Self-locking Nut for 29019 euro PER PIECE)

Evidence?
First reported by german politicians magazine "Der Spiegel" in 2015
German Stern in 2017
http://www.stern.de/digital/technik/eurofighter-streit--nach-bestechungen-hat-oesterreich-genug-7347298.html
and Austrian "Die Kröne Zeitung" in 2017
http://www.krone.at/oesterreich/wie-frech-die-firma-eurofighter-abkassierte-geheimakten-zeigen-story-555977
All links in German language

I put the separate discussion on Austrian Eurofighter here
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,28693.0.html

Back to Topic
Now i found the Flemish article about Boeing refusal in April 2017
Boeing short answer translated back into English

"After studying the question, we regret that we do not see the opportunity to compete with the extremely capable and cost-effective F / A-18 Super Hornet on a truly equal competition"

"This decision allows Boeing to focus its efforts and resources on supporting our customers worldwide, collecting new orders and investing in technology and systems needed to address current and future threats," ..."where there is a complete and open competition."

Seem the Belgium politicians were playing there old game
"Who much are willing to pay a "contribution" for me and my political Party ?"
or worst
"We want a package Deal with this and that, other wise..."
 

Michel Van

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News according this article in Flemish
https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2017/09/07/3-kandidaten-voor-nieuwe-belgische-gevechtsvliegtuigen/

Is down to Three Candidates.

F-35A
One of the Reason for Belgium to buy them,
They can better cooperate with Netherlands Air-force, that also orders the F-35.
biggest problem the F-35 program has allot delays

Rafale
One of the Reason for Belgium to buy them, is lower price
but they need then to cooperate with French Air-force.
What is for moment not the case.

Eurofighter Tycoon
Interesting is that Belgium insist to buy Tycoons from British production and not from German production.

the Manufacture companies have time to february 2018
to send offers to Belgium Government and end of 2018 they proclaim the winner.

The Article give new inside why Boeing and Saab dropped out competition.
Boeing F-18 was consider to old hardware by Belgium air-force (and by Boeing too ?)

Saab Gripen was consider Ideal for job, but Swedish Government hat some issue
with Belgium proposal for cooperation with Swedish Air-force.
because Belgium is member of NATO and has Nuclear weapons in stock.
while Sweden is a Neutral Nation.
 

CiTrus90

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Machdiamond said:
The Tycoon sounds like the most expensive choice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zXDo4dL7SU

;D
 

Michel Van

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Hood said:
Sounds like its down to two contenders, Typhoon and the F-35.
The French Rafale offer seems to amount to little more a than a letter from the French armed forces minister Florence Parly.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/belgium-seeks-clarity-over-french-bid-for-fighter-de-440970/

Oh Bloody Hell...
Belgium Politic the hard way:

The Current Belgium Minister of defense is Steven Vandeput
Who is Flemish and member of political party N-VA (New Flemish Alliance)
N-VA strives for the peaceful and gradual secession of Flanders from Belgium.

The current plans for Belgium air-force close cooperation with Netherlands Air-force make sense
since Flemish and the Netherlands speak Dutch

Now the French offer for collaboration with Belgium Air-force, could be problem for N-VA Party
because they speak french, like there political enemy the Belgium Walloons!

I bet, if there is a Flemish Minister of defense until end of 2018, The french are out of the deal !
But during current political turmoil in Belgium, it will be hell of a local elections in 2018...
 

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Michel Van said:
Oh Bloody Hell...
Belgium Politic the hard way:

The Current Belgium Minister of defense is Steven Vandeput
Who is Flemish and member of political party N-VA (New Flemish Alliance)
N-VA strives for the peaceful and gradual secession of Flanders from Belgium.

The current plans for Belgium air-force close cooperation with Netherlands Air-force make sense
since Flemish and the Netherlands speak Dutch

Now the French offer for collaboration with Belgium Air-force, could be problem for N-VA Party
because they speak french, like there political enemy the Belgium Walloons!

I bet, if there is a Flemish Minister of defense until end of 2018, The french are out of the deal !
But during current political turmoil in Belgium, it will be hell of a local elections in 2018...

I think the most likely choice will be F-35, indeed because of the established cooperation with the Netherlands, and so for compatability with US equipment (that is not only in use in Belgium and the Netherlands, but also f.e. with the airforces of Norway and Denmark).

If we were still in the 1970s/80s and the regional Walloon socialist party would still be a major player in the Federal Government, Rafale would have a bigger chance of winning the contract then as in present circumstances. Remember f.e. Mirage-5 ;)
That today the Federal Defense Minister is from the Dutch-speaking Flanders region and belongs to the confederalistic NVA party will imo not be of great influence on the (final) downselect. Downselect most probably just between F-35 and EF-2000, as the French Government´s Rafale "proposal" (just a letter saying "hey let´s collaborate"!) did not follow the RFP-guidelines/procedures.

Btw, I hope Walloons do not (all) regard (all) Flemish as separatists or opponents. Belgian fries taste juste the same in Flanders, Brussels and in Wallonia. Beste groeten / Cordialement ;)
 

Michel Van

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Dreamfighter said:
If we were still in the 1970s/80s and the regional Walloon socialist party would still be a major player in the Federal Government, Rafale would have a bigger chance of winning the contract then as in present circumstances. Remember f.e. Mirage-5 ;)

Btw, I hope Walloons do not (all) regard (all) Flemish as separatists or opponents. Belgian fries taste juste the same in Flanders, Brussels and in Wallonia. Beste groeten / Cordialement ;)

For those who not understand
the Belgium socialist party is more of a Crime syndicate instead of political party
With allot of Corruption, special in military contracts see Mirage 5 , F-16 and Augusta Helicopters
finally in 1995 it erupted in biggest scandal in Belgium history, as it became public.
from here the Socialist went in separate way Flemish and Walloons
but in 2017 guess what ?

A big corruption scandal in Belgium with Flemish and Walloons Socialist.
to top that the Socialist Mayor of Brussels was caught on embezzlement
from a Help organization that support the poorest and homeless of Brussels

a Socialist that steal from the poorest and homeless ?!

This let to major political crisis in Walloon as christian democrats terminate there coalition with socialist.
and Walloon and Brussel were without federal government and allot to towns lost there Mayor.
for the moment is new coalition Government of christian democrats with Liberals
in a survey in Belgium reached the Socialist only 2%
while the Walloons Communist reach new record high of 39%
and to make matter worst for the Socialist, next year is election in Belgium !

Let the Carnage beginn...
 

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Michel Van said:
Dreamfighter said:
If we were still in the 1970s/80s and the regional Walloon socialist party would still be a major player in the Federal Government, Rafale would have a bigger chance of winning the contract then as in present circumstances. Remember f.e. Mirage-5 ;)

Btw, I hope Walloons do not (all) regard (all) Flemish as separatists or opponents. Belgian fries taste juste the same in Flanders, Brussels and in Wallonia. Beste groeten / Cordialement ;)


For those who not understand
the Belgium socialist party is more of a Crime syndicate instead of political party
With allot of Corruption, special in military contracts see Mirage 5 , F-16 and Augusta Helicopters
finally in 1995 it erupted in biggest scandal in Belgium history, as it became public.
from here the Socialist went in separate way Flemish and Walloons
but in 2017 guess what ?

A big corruption scandal in Belgium with Flemish and Walloons Socialist.
to top that the Socialist Mayor of Brussels was caught on embezzlement
from a Help organization that support the poorest and homeless of Brussels

a Socialist that steal from the poorest and homeless ?!

This let to major political crisis in Walloon as christian democrats terminate there coalition with socialist.
and Walloon and Brussel were without federal government and allot to towns lost there Mayor.
for the moment is new coalition Government of christian democrats with Liberals
in a survey in Belgium reached the Socialist only 2%
while the Walloons Communist reach new record high of 39%
and to make matter worst for the Socialist, next year is election in Belgium !

Let the Carnage beginn...



Good Lord!

And people get upset with US politics.

In the next peer to peer war the Rafale may not be a 74M coffin but would I want to put my sons and daughters in one when the Americans, Brits, Danish, Dutch, Israelis, Italians, Norwegians and gosh knows who else are all flying 35's? You'll basically have to be protected by everybody else.

If you land in Norway, who's going to fix or service your Rafale? If you land in Poland who's going to fix or service your Rafale? If you have to land in Britain or the Netherlands who's going to fix or service your Rafale? The only place in Europe you can land is at home or France.

It's not a matter of the threats today, it's understanding how the A2/AD threat will modify to meet 5th gen and newer systems.

How about this. If they purchase the F-35 they get THE latest production aircraft, world wide support, engine upgrades in the pipeline as well as mission systems upgrades for 30+ years for 80M with development costs spread over 2000 airframes with 230+ already built and a production ramp up to 15-20 per month. The front line US fighter.

Or they can get the Rafale, a 30 yo design which has had ~200 built over the last 20 years for 74M.

hmmm. Tough decision?
 

Michel Van

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NeilChapman, you got a point here

At 100 Anniversary of Belgium Air-force with Air Show
The German Luftwaffe send a Eurofigher to the show
Only to be grounded do technical problems during flight to airfield
And they not could fix or service it on Belgium airfield

it that reason the Belgians want British Eurofighters and not german build ?
 

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There is a distinct difference between RAF operating experience and Luftwaffe operating experience when it comes to Typhoon. Whilst it is most likely that BAE are selling Typhoon due to pre-existing internal agreement between the partners (as has happened in all other competitions), they are able to talk about the reduced operating costs, operational experience and future developments in a way that no other partners can.

Also, Typhoon allows Belgian pilots to land at plenty of close airfields and get Typhoon loving (to carry on with NeilChapman's point)
 

Michel Van

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mrmalaya said:
There is a distinct difference between RAF operating experience and Luftwaffe operating experience when it comes to Typhoon. Whilst it is most likely that BAE are selling Typhoon due to pre-existing internal agreement between the partners (as has happened in all other competitions), they are able to talk about the reduced operating costs, operational experience and future developments in a way that no other partners can.

Also, Typhoon allows Belgian pilots to land at plenty of close airfields and get Typhoon loving (to carry on with NeilChapman's point)

So far i could see on that particular Typhoon on Belgium Air-force with Air Show
The problem was at Auxiliary power unit and allot of soot came out exhaust blacking the flank of The Fighter.
off course this could be the normal technical problems you have with Airplane
but for odd reason seems the German build Typhoon to have some technicals issues

newest problem (next to corruption charges and bamboozlement with overpriced spare parts)
wrong holes in fuselage (for moment those aircraft are restricted to to keep under 6 gees in combat exercise)
http://www.dw.com/en/germany-finds-new-problems-with-eurofighter-jets/a-18779651
good analysis on problem
http://www.jameshasik.com/weblog/2014/11/is-something-wrong-with-the-eurofighter-or-just-the-air-forces-flying-it.html

Looking at German, Austrian and Spain Air-force have most problem with Typhoon
The one with less Typhoon problems are RAF in Britain
Can be the fact that those three run there Air-force on ridicule shoe-string-budget level
Could play a important role in this story ?


But it seem that Typhoon could fall out the competitions
if this article is right BAE system want to close it Typhoon production in 2019
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articles-view/feature/5/177740/eurofighter-four-face-hard-decisions-on-production%2C-damages-as-orders-run-out.html

And Belgium politic make decision only at end of 2018
but that more chaotic as quantum physic and realistic that they delay the decision...
do 2018 election and highly complex government formation (current record 541 days)
so it can be, that in end only two candidates remain F-35 and Rafale
Worst case scenario some Belgum politician comes on this hair raising Idea:
"Let keep the F-16 flying until new French/German Fighter is ready"

it would not wonder me...
 

mrmalaya

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I'm sure you have a better understanding of what is more likely in Belgium, but Defense-Aerospace.com is notorious for it's editorial bias (I won't say pro-Rafale as such, but certainly against Rafale's competitors).

Here is a very recent article by the same editor. See if you can spot how many times it makes mention of Typhoon being in the competition that Rafale has pulled out of:

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articles-view/feature/5/186610/belgian-fighter-competition%3A-three-down%2C-two-to-go%3F.html

It is a key point that Italy and the UK have faith in their Typhoons and have both closed export deals as a consequence.
 

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I'm not sure if all the Belgium specific political talk is good for this thread.
Maybe better to just keep the talk to the contenders of this (bogus) selection.

In my eyes the F-35 will "win"... anything else would be suspicious.

Only thing that matters to me is: how much will these planes cost us in the end? Belgium is not a partner country, so i do not expect a good price. And for our US friends, please stop with 80M unit price fairy tales, you can be happy if the US gets them at this price.
 

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gTg said:
I'm not sure if all the Belgium specific political talk is good for this thread.
Maybe better to just keep the talk to the contenders of this (bogus) selection.

In my eyes the F-35 will "win"... anything else would be suspicious.

Only thing that matters to me is: how much will these planes cost us in the end? Belgium is not a partner country, so i do not expect a good price. And for our US friends, please stop with 80M unit price fairy tales, you can be happy if the US gets them at this price.

Well...

There is a Foreign Military Sales (FMS) price. That price is the going rate for the expected LRIP block or FRP lot within "your" jet is built. For instance, the last batch contracted was LRIP 10 where he A model was US$94.6M, ~7.5% less than LRIP 9. We can expect the LRIP 11 (October 2017?) to be another 6-7% less or ~$88-90M. LRIP 12 will also drop another 6-7% which gets you to ~$82M. That's pretty close to ~$80M, no?

AFAIK the Level 1-3 partners received not special pricing but manufacturing, subcontracting, maintenance facility rights etc. i.e jobs.

No one will "get them" at that price, not even the US, because no-one will purchase "only" the airframe bundle. They will purchase the airframe, spare engines, training systems, etc. etc., etc. and the price will be higher. But the airframe, engines, avionics etc bundle will be ~$80M once the jet reaches Full Rate Production in 2019 or 2020. It's not worth quibbling about ~$2M either way since there is no other jet in the world that can touch the F-35's value for anywhere near that price point.

The price is the price and it's pretty darn low based on the value.
 

NeilChapman

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Michel Van said:
mrmalaya said:
There is a distinct difference between RAF operating experience and Luftwaffe operating experience when it comes to Typhoon. Whilst it is most likely that BAE are selling Typhoon due to pre-existing internal agreement between the partners (as has happened in all other competitions), they are able to talk about the reduced operating costs, operational experience and future developments in a way that no other partners can.

Also, Typhoon allows Belgian pilots to land at plenty of close airfields and get Typhoon loving (to carry on with NeilChapman's point)

So far i could see on that particular Typhoon on Belgium Air-force with Air Show
The problem was at Auxiliary power unit and allot of soot came out exhaust blacking the flank of The Fighter.
off course this could be the normal technical problems you have with Airplane
but for odd reason seems the German build Typhoon to have some technicals issues

newest problem (next to corruption charges and bamboozlement with overpriced spare parts)
wrong holes in fuselage (for moment those aircraft are restricted to to keep under 6 gees in combat exercise)
http://www.dw.com/en/germany-finds-new-problems-with-eurofighter-jets/a-18779651
good analysis on problem
http://www.jameshasik.com/weblog/2014/11/is-something-wrong-with-the-eurofighter-or-just-the-air-forces-flying-it.html

Looking at German, Austrian and Spain Air-force have most problem with Typhoon
The one with less Typhoon problems are RAF in Britain
Can be the fact that those three run there Air-force on ridicule shoe-string-budget level
Could play a important role in this story
?

...


Absolutely. The German Air Force is a shell. They had trouble cobbling together six jets to send to Iraq/Syria. It's a joke. They are a credible threat to no one other than perhaps their own personnel.

Austrians are in the same boat but they only have ~15 fighters.

At least Spain sends folks to train with the US.
 

Archibald

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It probably won't helpthe deal that Vandeput phonetically sounds like "vents de pute" which exactly means "farts from a wh0re"
 

Michel Van

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Archibald said:
It probably won't helpthe deal that Vandeput phonetically sounds like "vents de pute" which exactly means "farts from a wh0re"

yep, the Walloon opposition in Belgium use that "expletive deleted", if they contumely Vandeput.
What is Flemish translate in englisch "From the hole.

for moment Vandeput claim that only TWO conforming bids were received.
That from Lockheed-Martin and BAe

I would be not surprise, if Vandeput let the Rafale bids "fall under Table"
is not first time something like that happen in Belgium...
 

BAROBA

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gTg said:
I'm not sure if all the Belgium specific political talk is good for this thread.
Maybe better to just keep the talk to the contenders of this (bogus) selection.

In my eyes the F-35 will "win"... anything else would be suspicious.

Only thing that matters to me is: how much will these planes cost us in the end? Belgium is not a partner country, so i do not expect a good price. And for our US friends, please stop with 80M unit price fairy tales, you can be happy if the US gets them at this price.

The politics are here to let outsiders understand what powers our fine little country....
And besides it is not like any of us is upset about what any other of us said, it is more like we all are upset about the powers that be...
In Belgium it is a national sport to distrust what any politician says, because we all know Belgium is probably the most corrupt country in Western Europe.
So that the F-35 will "win" is pretty much a done deal from the start, everything else is a show.

Rob
 

gTg

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BAROBA, i thought it was special beer and fries we are running on ;)
I'm just sick of all this Flemish/Walloon bickering on this thread and in general. I'm living this everyday at work in a Federal Public Service.

I can't wait for the selection to be over and some new planes finally getting contracted, no matter what it will be in the end.
I think the NH90's were the first new military aircraft introduced since i went to my first airshow as a kid! I'm 38 now...

Prost!
 

BAROBA

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Don't forget the Augustas :)
I dont remember exactly when they went into service, but it was in the '90's?
But please do not start to tell the story about we got the Augustas in the first place... The story is too unbelievable to be true....
( Especially the world-famous-in-Belgium phrase: "It was not illegal to take bribes, so I burned the bribe worth millions of Euros".)

Groeten, Greetings,

Rob
 

gTg

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The A109 entered service in 1992.
I do not remember any airshow without them. But i may have been to a couple before their introduction.
 

BAROBA

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"these could specialise in areas including advanced manufacturing and additive layer manufacturing, BAE says."
They would love to hear that in Leuven, more competition and this time sponsored by our own government, what could go wrong? :p
How much I love the Eurofighter, I love the idea of a few thousand people keep their jobs more.
 

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