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Author Topic: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS  (Read 51260 times)

Offline GTX

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2015, 01:00:17 pm »
Careful! The guys over at APA have a proposed F-111 variant that you are wilfully infringing on with this thought exercise.

We could call it the FB-111H.  ;)  Add some stealthification. . .:



Please note that the drawing above (which I did a few years back - it is pure fantasy!) had absolutely nothing to do with the clowns at APA.

Offline marauder2048

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2015, 01:01:49 pm »

The big question would be how much the design would emphasize payload compared to interceptors - or how much it would emphasize smaller size, reduced costs, and supersonic performance at low altitudes. I suspect that the Mach 1.1 low altitude performance would be fairly achievable with modern engines (and anything higher than that would be prevented due to heating concerns).


I thought Gulf War One was the deathride of low-altitude supersonic when the Tornado crews mutinied due to high loss rates.


Offline Sundog

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2015, 01:02:07 pm »
They can barely afford the Typhoon. The only way they're getting 5th gen is if it's the F-35 or a development of the Taranis and the Neuron. The only possible new aircraft to replace the Tornado that they might be able to afford would be a stretched Typhoon. Anything else just isn't happening and many of their neighbors are already going with the F-35.

Offline marauder2048

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2015, 01:17:40 pm »
They can barely afford the Typhoon. The only way they're getting 5th gen is if it's the F-35 or a development of the Taranis and the Neuron. The only possible new aircraft to replace the Tornado that they might be able to afford would be a stretched Typhoon. Anything else just isn't happening and many of their neighbors are already going with the F-35.

But if the Russians abrogate or break-out of the INF treaty, range and responsiveness (i.e. dashing away from your far western airbase before it's blow'ed up) become a major issue.

Offline DrRansom

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2015, 01:25:44 pm »
The most obvious reason for this program is that without it, Europe is done as an independent aircraft designer. Without a fighter concept underway, Europe has nothing to keep it's design times active until 2040 time frame. For that reason alone, an independent project is justified.

I think that the range issue is going to start driving concepts again. For two and a half decades, the USAF has not had to worry about serious threats to it's operating bases. That is coming to an end very quickly and quite decisively. In that case, we should expect to see future aircraft and basing concepts returning to those developed in the late 80s. For Europe, combined requirement for bombing missions in the region and conventional threat to bases from Russia will probably lead them to pursuing a longer range aircraft than F-35.

Heck, were I the USAF I'd be looking at a futuristic Strike Fighter. (A moment of silence for the FB-22/23 concepts) F-35 range is sufficient for a tactical fighter, but USAF needs more power at range than just the LRS-B.

Offline sferrin

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2015, 01:36:48 pm »
Careful! The guys over at APA have a proposed F-111 variant that you are wilfully infringing on with this thought exercise.

We could call it the FB-111H.  ;)  Add some stealthification. . .:



Please note that the drawing above (which I did a few years back - it is pure fantasy!) had absolutely nothing to do with the clowns at APA.

It was meant as a joke.  I'd googled "FB-111H" and that popped up.   :D
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Offline Flyaway

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2015, 02:18:25 pm »
They can barely afford the Typhoon. The only way they're getting 5th gen is if it's the F-35 or a development of the Taranis and the Neuron. The only possible new aircraft to replace the Tornado that they might be able to afford would be a stretched Typhoon. Anything else just isn't happening and many of their neighbors are already going with the F-35.

The Taranis/Neuron are focused on developing a sixth generation air superiority vehicle for the UK/France not some imaginary fifth generation strike aircraft that will probably never get anywhere. Unlike Germany at least us & French still seem to have some interest in maintaining European air vehicle development.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2015, 02:20:29 pm by Flyaway »

Offline sferrin

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2015, 02:27:54 pm »
They can barely afford the Typhoon. The only way they're getting 5th gen is if it's the F-35 or a development of the Taranis and the Neuron. The only possible new aircraft to replace the Tornado that they might be able to afford would be a stretched Typhoon. Anything else just isn't happening and many of their neighbors are already going with the F-35.

The Taranis/Neuron are focused on developing a sixth generation air superiority vehicle

Uhm, wut?

Taranis
From the BAE site:

"The aircraft was designed to demonstrate the UK’s ability to create an unmanned air system which, under the control of a human operator, is capable of undertaking sustained surveillance, marking targets, gathering intelligence, deterring adversaries and carrying out strikes in hostile territory."

Neuron
From the Dassault site:

"The aim of the nEUROn programme is to demonstrate the maturity and the effectiveness of technical solutions, but not to perform military missions.

The main technological challenges addressed during the development phase of the nEUROn were:

– the shapes of the air vehicle (aerodynamic, innovative composite structure, and internal weapon bay),

– the technologies related to low observability issues,

– the insertion of this type of aircraft within the test area,

– the high-level algorithms necessary to the development of the automated processes,

– as well as the place of the human factor within the mission loop.

The last, but certainly not the least, important technology which will be demonstrated is the capability to carry and deliver weapons from an internal bay. Today, European aircraft are designed with external loading capabilities for bombs and missiles.

The following goals were achieved during in-flight trials:

– demonstrating an air-to-ground mission, with the detection, localization and reconnaissance of ground targets in autonomous modes,

– assessing the detectability of a stealth platform facing ground or aerial threats, in terms of radar cross section and infrared signature.

It is clear that through these demonstration missions, the goals are to validate technologies around command and control of an unmanned air vehicle of a size similar to a combat aircraft, with all back-up modes insuring necessary safety and security.

The nEUROn system is network-centric capable."
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Offline Hood

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2015, 01:42:23 am »
Sounds to me like some vague policy document, probably is a wishlist of improbable stuff.
I can't see Germany spending the R&D money needed for such an aircraft, or persuading BAE Systems, Airbus, Dassault and Alenia to part with the investment such an aircraft would require. Even a beefed up Typhoon would require all the partner nations to get on board, but the focus is on F-35 now, and given Germany's defence cuts have afflicted Typhoon, Eurotiger, NH90 and other multinational programmes before, I can't see them taking the risk unless it was an aircraft wanted by all the major Western European nations.

The UK MoD are up to the same crystal ball gazing: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/uk-predicts-more-stealthy-and-stand-off-ops-by-2035-420125/
"hypersonic strategic air-lift" by 2035... more pie in the sky stuff, though that idea has been around since the 1960s.

Offline Kiltonge

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2015, 02:33:19 am »
Considering that Europe is finding a requirement for bombing missions at range in the Mediterranean and North Africa, that extra range would be very helpful.

Indeed, using Tornados for such missions is punishing on the crews and inefficient in cost-per-payload delivered once you start adding-up fuel-burn, cost of routing around civilian operations, cost of tankers etc  And with the death of low-level supersonic penetration in the 1990s there's really no need to invent a New Tornado.

Something in the bizjet size-class, with a good wing to loft it above most civilian traffic, sensible degree of LO, lots of EW and perhaps mild supercruise, and a proper shirt-sleeves working environment, would seem ideal.  Not a traditional 'fighter jet' beloved of the media but achievable by European companies with only a small push ahead in technology.

Maybe a 'B-2 Lite' but not as stealth-optimised.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2015, 02:36:49 am by Kiltonge »

Offline phil gollin

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #25 on: December 22, 2015, 04:10:30 am »
.

After the mess that he Germans made of late Eurofighter procurement and the farce of their (and the French) ordering of the military transport I just can't take this seriously.

The only thing that the British/French/Germans want from any such programme is the technological knowledge of the R & D, and IF POSSIBLE the payments for a new factory or ten (!)  -  oh! and for the other countries to pay for the honour.

Each country will be looking back at how previous co-operative ventures have been ruined by the politicians and eventually they will buy American.

It is OBVIOUS that Europe needs a competitive aerospace industry, but each country is too greedy or too political .
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« Last Edit: December 23, 2015, 10:16:32 am by Jemiba »



Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #28 on: December 23, 2015, 04:10:49 am »
The British looked at replacing Tornado in the 90s and what we now have is Typhoon and F35 (in the medium term) with a likely UCAV to support them from 2030.

There is a requirement to replace Typhoon and Rafale from 2040 (with the Taranis/Neuron fed FCAS programme feeding in to that as well as the UCAV) and no reason to think that Germany will be able to get its act together to begin a parallel programme.

If Germany needs more airframes it should buy more Typhoon (oh the irony) and buy in to FCAS (but not delay it).

Offline JFC Fuller

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #29 on: December 23, 2015, 05:22:50 am »
FCAS is currently nothing but a make-work study-exercise for Dassault and BAE. They might build yet another UCAV demonstrator but its not going to lead to any real development programme for years.