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Author Topic: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS  (Read 53663 times)

Offline muttbutt

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Germany plans to develop a new fighter jet to replace Tornado jets in the long term and it aims to hold initial talks with European partners in 2016 about what features they want in the aircraft, according to a document seen by Reuters on Sunday.

A draft document from the Defence Ministry on 'military aviation strategy' said it was still unclear whether the new jet would be manned or unmanned. It said it was also possible that the jet would be designed for both options and then be flown with or without a pilot depending on the type of deployment.

As it would be a European project, it is likely that one or more European companies would be chosen to develop the jet. The Tornado jet, which Germany has been using since 1981 - although it now also has the newer Eurofighter jet - was also made in an international consortium called Panavia.

At the same time, Germany's armed forces are looking into whether it would be possible to extend usage of the Tornado jets into the mid-2030s, the paper said.

The Tornado jets had been due to be phased out in the mid-2020s.

A spokesman for the Defence Ministry said the document had not yet been agreed with the other ministries so he could not comment on it.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-germany-defence-jet-idUKKBN0U30PS20151220
« Last Edit: July 10, 2016, 05:29:53 pm by PaulMM (Overscan) »

Offline FighterJock

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2015, 11:07:45 am »
Germany plans to develop a new fighter jet to replace Tornado jets in the long term and it aims to hold initial talks with European partners in 2016 about what features they want in the aircraft, according to a document seen by Reuters on Sunday.

A draft document from the Defence Ministry on 'military aviation strategy' said it was still unclear whether the new jet would be manned or unmanned. It said it was also possible that the jet would be designed for both options and then be flown with or without a pilot depending on the type of deployment.

As it would be a European project, it is likely that one or more European companies would be chosen to develop the jet. The Tornado jet, which Germany has been using since 1981 - although it now also has the newer Eurofighter jet - was also made in an international consortium called Panavia.

At the same time, Germany's armed forces are looking into whether it would be possible to extend usage of the Tornado jets into the mid-2030s, the paper said.

The Tornado jets had been due to be phased out in the mid-2020s.

A spokesman for the Defence Ministry said the document had not yet been agreed with the other ministries so he could not comment on it.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-germany-defence-jet-idUKKBN0U30PS20151220

Interesting news.  I have always wanted a new European fighter to replace the Tornado properly, and yes I am old enough to remember the British led FOAS development program.

Offline sferrin

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2015, 11:09:37 am »
I wonder if the USN F/A-XX could fill this role.
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Offline marauder2048

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2015, 11:15:30 am »
I wonder if the USN F/A-XX could fill this role.

Probably but it wouldn't satisfy the
Quote
As it would be a European project, it is likely that one or more European companies would be chosen to develop the jet.
requirement.

Offline GTX

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2015, 11:38:37 am »
Unless the primary focus is European industrial support here, dare I say that the F-35 is the perfect option to replace their Tornadoes in the foreseeable future... ;)

Offline DrRansom

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2015, 11:45:42 am »
I was wondering when such a program would begin...

Without a next generation fighter/bomber program, European Aerospace companies would outright go out of the development business.

For the F-35 replacement, there is probably still the issue that the F-35's range isn't as good as a dedicated strike fighter could be. A Tornado replacement which begins as a pure strike fighter could possibly get a 2 x 2000lb bombload out to 800nm+. Considering that Europe is finding a requirement for bombing missions at range in the Mediterranean and North Africa, that extra range would be very helpful. 

Offline Avimimus

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2015, 11:59:28 am »
Interesting... range is quite the question - European strike aircraft traditionally tended to need a bit less range since Europe isn't that big  - but post Cold War thinking might emphasize other uses than defending against a Russian attack (as you mentioned).

A twin engined dedicated strike aircraft might have potential as a long range patrol aircraft or interceptor as well. It might lack the super-cruise capability, and it might lack manoeuvrability for WVR, but the airframe might have potential as an Arctic interceptor (aimed primarily at engaging intercontinental bombers and naval assets).

The big question would be how much the design would emphasize payload compared to interceptors - or how much it would emphasize smaller size, reduced costs, and supersonic performance at low altitudes. I suspect that the Mach 1.1 low altitude performance would be fairly achievable with modern engines (and anything higher than that would be prevented due to heating concerns). So, the really question is how big it would be ...and thus how much potential it has for development into a long range variant.

P.S. Of course, I'm thinking of Canadian requirements

Offline Avimimus

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2015, 12:01:52 pm »
Btw. It'd be interesting to start a thread on possible design influences. I know the British had a lot of 5th generation strike aircraft studies (although these are mostly still classified).

Offline Tony Williams

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2015, 12:32:09 pm »
One of my idle daydreams concerns a major development of the Tornado design in around 2000, mainly intended to increase the range by substantially increasing the internal fuel load as follows:
- split the central fuselage down the centreline and pull the engines apart to create a bay for internal weapons stowage and extra fuel
- lengthen the nose to provide space for more fuel
- add LERX to balance the longer nose, and fill them with sensors and illuminators
- fit a multi-function radar
- once flight-tested, make a new central fuselage (and maybe more) from carbon fibre to bring the weight back down again.

The intended result would be to allow the plane to fly most missions without any external weapons or fuel, thereby greatly reducing the drag (and incidentally the radar signature).
 
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Offline JFC Fuller

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2015, 12:41:34 pm »
This is so far from ever being a project as to barely be worth talking about.

Offline muttbutt

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2015, 12:43:24 pm »
This is so far from ever being a project as to barely be worth talking about.
When has that ever stopped us before? ;)

Offline red admiral

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2015, 12:44:55 pm »
Given that Germany puts military spending in such low priority its barely maintaining or developing the Typhoons it has, this announcement is firmly in the fantasy region for now. I don't see Germany spending $10-20bn on this soon.

Offline marauder2048

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2015, 12:48:44 pm »
One of my idle daydreams concerns a major development of the Tornado design in around 2000, mainly intended to increase the range by substantially increasing the internal fuel load as follows:
- split the central fuselage down the centreline and pull the engines apart to create a bay for internal weapons stowage and extra fuel
- lengthen the nose to provide space for more fuel
- add LERX to balance the longer nose, and fill them with sensors and illuminators
- fit a multi-function radar
- once flight-tested, make a new central fuselage (and maybe more) from carbon fibre to bring the weight back down again.

The intended result would be to allow the plane to fly most missions without any external weapons or fuel, thereby greatly reducing the drag (and incidentally the radar signature).

Careful! The guys over at APA have a proposed F-111 variant that you are wilfully infringing on with this thought exercise.

Offline sferrin

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2015, 12:52:01 pm »
One of my idle daydreams concerns a major development of the Tornado design in around 2000, mainly intended to increase the range by substantially increasing the internal fuel load as follows:
- split the central fuselage down the centreline and pull the engines apart to create a bay for internal weapons stowage and extra fuel
- lengthen the nose to provide space for more fuel
- add LERX to balance the longer nose, and fill them with sensors and illuminators
- fit a multi-function radar
- once flight-tested, make a new central fuselage (and maybe more) from carbon fibre to bring the weight back down again.

The intended result would be to allow the plane to fly most missions without any external weapons or fuel, thereby greatly reducing the drag (and incidentally the radar signature).

Careful! The guys over at APA have a proposed F-111 variant that you are wilfully infringing on with this thought exercise.

We could call it the FB-111H.  ;)  Add some stealthification. . .:

« Last Edit: December 21, 2015, 12:57:45 pm by sferrin »
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Offline Ifor

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2015, 12:55:09 pm »
Forgive me, this would be fifth generation? We wouldn't be interested would we, F35? Would the French or Italians?

Offline GTX

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2015, 01:00:17 pm »
Careful! The guys over at APA have a proposed F-111 variant that you are wilfully infringing on with this thought exercise.

We could call it the FB-111H.  ;)  Add some stealthification. . .:



Please note that the drawing above (which I did a few years back - it is pure fantasy!) had absolutely nothing to do with the clowns at APA.

Offline marauder2048

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2015, 01:01:49 pm »

The big question would be how much the design would emphasize payload compared to interceptors - or how much it would emphasize smaller size, reduced costs, and supersonic performance at low altitudes. I suspect that the Mach 1.1 low altitude performance would be fairly achievable with modern engines (and anything higher than that would be prevented due to heating concerns).


I thought Gulf War One was the deathride of low-altitude supersonic when the Tornado crews mutinied due to high loss rates.


Offline Sundog

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2015, 01:02:07 pm »
They can barely afford the Typhoon. The only way they're getting 5th gen is if it's the F-35 or a development of the Taranis and the Neuron. The only possible new aircraft to replace the Tornado that they might be able to afford would be a stretched Typhoon. Anything else just isn't happening and many of their neighbors are already going with the F-35.

Offline marauder2048

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2015, 01:17:40 pm »
They can barely afford the Typhoon. The only way they're getting 5th gen is if it's the F-35 or a development of the Taranis and the Neuron. The only possible new aircraft to replace the Tornado that they might be able to afford would be a stretched Typhoon. Anything else just isn't happening and many of their neighbors are already going with the F-35.

But if the Russians abrogate or break-out of the INF treaty, range and responsiveness (i.e. dashing away from your far western airbase before it's blow'ed up) become a major issue.

Offline DrRansom

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2015, 01:25:44 pm »
The most obvious reason for this program is that without it, Europe is done as an independent aircraft designer. Without a fighter concept underway, Europe has nothing to keep it's design times active until 2040 time frame. For that reason alone, an independent project is justified.

I think that the range issue is going to start driving concepts again. For two and a half decades, the USAF has not had to worry about serious threats to it's operating bases. That is coming to an end very quickly and quite decisively. In that case, we should expect to see future aircraft and basing concepts returning to those developed in the late 80s. For Europe, combined requirement for bombing missions in the region and conventional threat to bases from Russia will probably lead them to pursuing a longer range aircraft than F-35.

Heck, were I the USAF I'd be looking at a futuristic Strike Fighter. (A moment of silence for the FB-22/23 concepts) F-35 range is sufficient for a tactical fighter, but USAF needs more power at range than just the LRS-B.

Offline sferrin

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2015, 01:36:48 pm »
Careful! The guys over at APA have a proposed F-111 variant that you are wilfully infringing on with this thought exercise.

We could call it the FB-111H.  ;)  Add some stealthification. . .:



Please note that the drawing above (which I did a few years back - it is pure fantasy!) had absolutely nothing to do with the clowns at APA.

It was meant as a joke.  I'd googled "FB-111H" and that popped up.   :D
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Offline Flyaway

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2015, 02:18:25 pm »
They can barely afford the Typhoon. The only way they're getting 5th gen is if it's the F-35 or a development of the Taranis and the Neuron. The only possible new aircraft to replace the Tornado that they might be able to afford would be a stretched Typhoon. Anything else just isn't happening and many of their neighbors are already going with the F-35.

The Taranis/Neuron are focused on developing a sixth generation air superiority vehicle for the UK/France not some imaginary fifth generation strike aircraft that will probably never get anywhere. Unlike Germany at least us & French still seem to have some interest in maintaining European air vehicle development.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2015, 02:20:29 pm by Flyaway »

Offline sferrin

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2015, 02:27:54 pm »
They can barely afford the Typhoon. The only way they're getting 5th gen is if it's the F-35 or a development of the Taranis and the Neuron. The only possible new aircraft to replace the Tornado that they might be able to afford would be a stretched Typhoon. Anything else just isn't happening and many of their neighbors are already going with the F-35.

The Taranis/Neuron are focused on developing a sixth generation air superiority vehicle

Uhm, wut?

Taranis
From the BAE site:

"The aircraft was designed to demonstrate the UK’s ability to create an unmanned air system which, under the control of a human operator, is capable of undertaking sustained surveillance, marking targets, gathering intelligence, deterring adversaries and carrying out strikes in hostile territory."

Neuron
From the Dassault site:

"The aim of the nEUROn programme is to demonstrate the maturity and the effectiveness of technical solutions, but not to perform military missions.

The main technological challenges addressed during the development phase of the nEUROn were:

– the shapes of the air vehicle (aerodynamic, innovative composite structure, and internal weapon bay),

– the technologies related to low observability issues,

– the insertion of this type of aircraft within the test area,

– the high-level algorithms necessary to the development of the automated processes,

– as well as the place of the human factor within the mission loop.

The last, but certainly not the least, important technology which will be demonstrated is the capability to carry and deliver weapons from an internal bay. Today, European aircraft are designed with external loading capabilities for bombs and missiles.

The following goals were achieved during in-flight trials:

– demonstrating an air-to-ground mission, with the detection, localization and reconnaissance of ground targets in autonomous modes,

– assessing the detectability of a stealth platform facing ground or aerial threats, in terms of radar cross section and infrared signature.

It is clear that through these demonstration missions, the goals are to validate technologies around command and control of an unmanned air vehicle of a size similar to a combat aircraft, with all back-up modes insuring necessary safety and security.

The nEUROn system is network-centric capable."
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Offline Hood

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2015, 01:42:23 am »
Sounds to me like some vague policy document, probably is a wishlist of improbable stuff.
I can't see Germany spending the R&D money needed for such an aircraft, or persuading BAE Systems, Airbus, Dassault and Alenia to part with the investment such an aircraft would require. Even a beefed up Typhoon would require all the partner nations to get on board, but the focus is on F-35 now, and given Germany's defence cuts have afflicted Typhoon, Eurotiger, NH90 and other multinational programmes before, I can't see them taking the risk unless it was an aircraft wanted by all the major Western European nations.

The UK MoD are up to the same crystal ball gazing: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/uk-predicts-more-stealthy-and-stand-off-ops-by-2035-420125/
"hypersonic strategic air-lift" by 2035... more pie in the sky stuff, though that idea has been around since the 1960s.

Offline Kiltonge

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2015, 02:33:19 am »
Considering that Europe is finding a requirement for bombing missions at range in the Mediterranean and North Africa, that extra range would be very helpful.

Indeed, using Tornados for such missions is punishing on the crews and inefficient in cost-per-payload delivered once you start adding-up fuel-burn, cost of routing around civilian operations, cost of tankers etc  And with the death of low-level supersonic penetration in the 1990s there's really no need to invent a New Tornado.

Something in the bizjet size-class, with a good wing to loft it above most civilian traffic, sensible degree of LO, lots of EW and perhaps mild supercruise, and a proper shirt-sleeves working environment, would seem ideal.  Not a traditional 'fighter jet' beloved of the media but achievable by European companies with only a small push ahead in technology.

Maybe a 'B-2 Lite' but not as stealth-optimised.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2015, 02:36:49 am by Kiltonge »

Offline phil gollin

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #25 on: December 22, 2015, 04:10:30 am »
.

After the mess that he Germans made of late Eurofighter procurement and the farce of their (and the French) ordering of the military transport I just can't take this seriously.

The only thing that the British/French/Germans want from any such programme is the technological knowledge of the R & D, and IF POSSIBLE the payments for a new factory or ten (!)  -  oh! and for the other countries to pay for the honour.

Each country will be looking back at how previous co-operative ventures have been ruined by the politicians and eventually they will buy American.

It is OBVIOUS that Europe needs a competitive aerospace industry, but each country is too greedy or too political .
.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2015, 10:16:32 am by Jemiba »



Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #28 on: December 23, 2015, 04:10:49 am »
The British looked at replacing Tornado in the 90s and what we now have is Typhoon and F35 (in the medium term) with a likely UCAV to support them from 2030.

There is a requirement to replace Typhoon and Rafale from 2040 (with the Taranis/Neuron fed FCAS programme feeding in to that as well as the UCAV) and no reason to think that Germany will be able to get its act together to begin a parallel programme.

If Germany needs more airframes it should buy more Typhoon (oh the irony) and buy in to FCAS (but not delay it).

Offline JFC Fuller

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #29 on: December 23, 2015, 05:22:50 am »
FCAS is currently nothing but a make-work study-exercise for Dassault and BAE. They might build yet another UCAV demonstrator but its not going to lead to any real development programme for years.

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #30 on: December 23, 2015, 06:40:37 am »
I don't want to get into a "nothing's been signed, so nothing is happening" debate- it's Christmas.

It is obvious that FCAS will lead to a UCAV by 2030. I think that there are some in the UK who are quite happy with Taranis and not keen to share too much with the French (because BAE et al have tried for decades to keep their work secret).

The other fact is that Typhoon bow out around 2040. The French are likely to keep their Rafale going that long, again because they have no alternative. If these are not replaced by a European design then the industry is dead. I would suggest that Airbus is struggling to fit in to these plans and consequently we see the call for a Tornado replacement which they might be able to do something about.

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #31 on: December 23, 2015, 03:00:28 pm »
As much as I would love FCAS to be aimed at replacing Typhoon/Rafale, I have yet to read anything saying this is the case.

You will however find lots and lots of statements and articles about it being a UCAV programme:

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/show-daily/paris-air-show/2015/06/15/drone-combat-britain-france-italy-germany-study-fighter-jets-male-uav/71113960/

"BAE Systems, Dassault Aviation, Rolls-Royce, Safran, Selex and Thales signed up for the two-year Anglo-French study for the UCAV."

That said, there is the occasional muttering from the UK about manned versus unmanned mix. FCAS is not however influenced by a theoretical commitment not to cut the F35 buy, and FOAS was supposed to be looking at manned/unmanned and look where that got us!

Also an AW article repeating the same but talking about airframe and propulsion choices for the UCAV:

http://aviationweek.com/defense/fcas-study-decide-ucav-planform-engine-year
« Last Edit: December 24, 2015, 12:02:36 am by mrmalaya »

Offline marauder2048

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #32 on: December 23, 2015, 05:00:39 pm »
I don't want to get into a "nothing's been signed, so nothing is happening" debate- it's Christmas.

Speaking of Yuletide Glow,  will this Tornado replacement be dual capable? 

Offline sferrin

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #33 on: December 23, 2015, 08:03:12 pm »
The Americans bless them have asked many times for certain technology, because we have answers to some of their more troublesome conundrums.

Given the vast disparity in experience I'd be curious what this might be related to. 
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Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #34 on: December 24, 2015, 12:09:42 am »
Ian33, your Taranis sources says what we all think if you ask me. Whilst Europe produces flashy videos and shows the world what it has achieved, BAE says little.

The only detailed article on the project was in AW, with Bill Sweetman offering some thoughts as to why it might be different from other publicly acknowledged UCAV programmes.

One of the above articles notes that an airframe selection is imminent with UK and France continuing to develop parallel aircraft!

Marauder2048, I don't see why not, Santa has a long way to go before Germany gets the present they want.

Offline red admiral

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #35 on: December 24, 2015, 01:58:57 am »
Given the vast disparity in experience I'd be curious what this might be related to.

Likely specific areas rather than general advancement. Difference in experience is related to what the US has brought to service. The UK has had LO design and development activities for many decades (back to 50s) - just not need, funding or political will to bring them to serbice.

There's got to be a benefit for the US in cooperating with the UK on this subject e.g. Project Churchill, new activity now.

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #36 on: December 24, 2015, 02:39:25 am »
JFC Fuller, lets not argue (neither of us is in possession of all the facts and in the interests of festive harmony I have no wish to bang on). Either way its all to the good, provided they don't decide to stick with the F35 beyond what is currently needed.

It will be interesting to see what shape the UCAV designs take imminently and if they proceed to a demonstrator it has to be assumed that it will offer significantly more than the current two.

Perhaps an optionally manned design keeps all doors open. Will the propulsion duo manage to make the leap forward in energy generation that a 2030s airframe will require?

Answers which Germany may discover in 2016.

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #37 on: January 19, 2016, 03:01:54 am »
A development in the realm of FCAS (although if there is a better place to post this, please let me know).

The UK MOD yesterday confirmed the following:

“We will work with France to develop an advanced Unmanned Combat Air System technology demonstrator, and with the United States to mature other high-end technologies,” it says. “Additionally, we will pursue a national technology programme to maintain the UK’s position as a global leader in this area.”

What are "high-end technologies" I wonder?

Article here:

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/life-of-raf-tornado-squadron-further-extended-to-201-420923/

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #38 on: January 19, 2016, 04:57:21 am »
Everyone a cynic! :)

Building a demonstrator for the technology is surely logical though and was always part of the plan? New distributed sensors, engines and airframe planform for the UCAV all need a thorough demonstration.

To me, this is confirmation that the plan is progressing as originally suggested when they signed the agreement.

I think it's still sensible to see this as an extension of the FOAS Tornado replacement (and therefore eminently relevant to the topic) its just that its a Typh-ado replacement mixed in with post 2010 politics.

This from HM Government in March 2014:

The Future Combat Air System (FCAS) programme will subsequently be responsible for the development of a UCAV capability. A two year national FCAS programme has been launched which aims to inform the forthcoming SDSR on the most appropriate force mix of platforms and systems in order to meet the future combat air requirement from 2030. A UCAV along the lines of Taranis is one potential element of this force mix, along with an additional buy of Lightning II, a Typhoon life extension or an alternative new-build manned aircraft. This will allow a decision to be made at the next SDSR about whether to commit to a UCAV development programme.

Lessons from the Watchkeeper programme have been applied to both the Taranis TDP and the national FCAS programme. The need to develop an early understanding of airworthiness certification requirements was a key lesson from the Watchkeeper programme. A specific package of work has been included within the national FCAS programme to address this challenge.

Any follow-on operational UCAV, which forms part of the future combat air force mix, would contribute to the UK's combat air and ISTAR capabilities. Key attributes of a UCAV would include the ability to undertake long range missions and to provide high levels of persistence and survivability in a contested environment featuring advanced air and ground threat systems. These attributes of range, persistence and survivability coupled with an advanced suite of sensors and weapons should permit a UCAV to make a major contribution to the provision of precise attack and ISTAR capabilities for the UK."

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201415/cmselect/cmdfence/611/61104.htm

« Last Edit: January 19, 2016, 05:09:35 am by mrmalaya »

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #39 on: January 19, 2016, 05:18:43 am »
Yes FOAS is dead and replaced by FCAS (in spirit if not specific use of letters in its title).

The big delay (because the technology and political will was not there) happened under FOAS and now progress is being made.

If they are not ready to build it, then the industry must be sustained. So we are in agreement.

The Cameron government are big fans of RPAS and I expect the only significant change in the timing is that they have committed to supporting the next phase of FCAS (a flying UCAV) a few months early.




Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #40 on: January 19, 2016, 05:30:00 am »
I wish you the best of days.

Lets hope it all turns out wonderfully!

Until next time....

Offline Reaper

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #41 on: January 19, 2016, 11:40:24 am »
Why would you need a Tornado replacement in the first place. Ok, the Germans arent so sure about Russia anymore, but a Eurofighter with all relevant weapons integrated should do the trick. Also when you would start now developing a new plane and would reach IOC in 2026+ then 2040 for phasing out the EF is also not that far away. Think of a Eurofighter replacement instead! Maybe call it Tornado replacement if it is more opportunistic for getting financial support!

Offline DrRansom

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #42 on: January 19, 2016, 12:36:46 pm »
If there isn't a new European fighter program in the next 10 - 20 years, I find it hard to believe that the Europeans will have a fighter industry at all.

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #43 on: January 19, 2016, 01:47:36 pm »
That is the point behind all of this. I personally think its part of a continuing process that has seen Britain and France pushing their industrial bases to be able to produce their own future fighter.

Calling it a Typhoon/Tornado replacement is to suggest a manned platform. At this stage all the effort is going toward unmanned.

New fighter engines, sensors and materials developed for a large UCAV work just as well for a fighter in service for 2040 do they not?

Offline marauder2048

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #44 on: January 20, 2016, 10:36:03 am »
That is the point behind all of this. I personally think its part of a continuing process that has seen Britain and France pushing their industrial bases to be able to produce their own future fighter.

Calling it a Typhoon/Tornado replacement is to suggest a manned platform. At this stage all the effort is going toward unmanned.

New fighter engines, sensors and materials developed for a large UCAV work just as well for a fighter in service for 2040 do they not?

There is an alternative and more cynical view motived by the fact that the German initiated European heavy lift helicopter program has now come down to a choice between the CH-47F and the CH-53K. 

Offline JFC Fuller

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #45 on: January 20, 2016, 10:44:29 am »
There is an alternative and more cynical view motived by the fact that the German initiated European heavy lift helicopter program has now come down to a choice between the CH-47F and the CH-53K.

And the Anglo-French MALE became Reaper and EUROMALE 2020 (now EUROMALE 2025) is also getting kicked down the road by Herons and Reapers.

Offline marauder2048

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #46 on: January 20, 2016, 11:16:37 am »
There is an alternative and more cynical view motived by the fact that the German initiated European heavy lift helicopter program has now come down to a choice between the CH-47F and the CH-53K.

And the Anglo-French MALE became Reaper and EUROMALE 2020 (now EUROMALE 2025) is also getting kicked down the road by Herons and Reapers.


Ugh. Thanks; I don't think I'll ever be able to unsee what I just saw by typing EUROMALE into Google Image search.

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #47 on: January 20, 2016, 11:51:43 am »
Well don't type in Anglo-French MALE for heavens sake!

Offline Avimimus

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #48 on: January 20, 2016, 03:08:14 pm »
Pah, that is nothing - I once wanted to confirm the spelling of Baba Yaga and did an image search hoping to see her chicken footed house (she's a witch btw.)
I misremembered her name as Baba Naga though... and I did the search at work during a lunch time conversation with a coworker!

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #49 on: January 20, 2016, 10:59:19 pm »
The Germans are planning for Typhoon in A2A and something else like FCAS to replace Tornado:

http://www.janes.com/article/57352/germany-issues-inaugural-air-capability-strategy-paper

"Specifically, while the FCAS concept will rest on the Typhoon as the air-defence pillar for the foreseeable future, the search for a Tornado replacement platform (either manned or unmanned/optionally manned) is to be implemented, and studied further in 2016 (including talks with potential European partners)."
« Last Edit: January 20, 2016, 11:01:23 pm by mrmalaya »

Offline VTOLicious

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #50 on: January 20, 2016, 11:14:15 pm »
Verteidigungsministerium veröffentlicht Militärische Luftfahrtstrategie (Ministry of Defense publishes Military aviation strategy) - Includes a download-link to the original paper.

http://www.bmvg.de/portal/a/bmvg/!ut/p/c4/NU0xDsIwEHtLP5BrkCgVW0sXVhYoW9JG1UFzqY5LuvB4kgFb8mDLNjwhk0zCxQgGMis8YJzwbHdlfVrUK0TOrvJI-BHHGD3cS2d2agrkpKg4Esy6sJHAagssa0kic04UzjDWeuhrXf-hv13TX9rTsdHDtb-VQbsfVqR3fg-UHIubYfO-3buq-gHhvfGl/



Offline red admiral

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #51 on: January 21, 2016, 11:14:04 am »
The Germans are planning for Typhoon in A2A and something else like FCAS to replace Tornado

At some point they'll have to pay for it though... which I don't see happening

Whereas UK/FR FCAS is spending serious money now

Offline JFC Fuller

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #52 on: January 21, 2016, 11:34:12 am »
Whereas UK/FR FCAS is spending serious money now

Depends on your definition of serious, all in (including national level and joint stuff) the spend is probably about £100 million a year split between the two countries and then split again between multiple companies in each country (with I understand some overlapping remits). The UK announcement that the two countries would build yet another demonstrator suggests that spending pattern isn't going to change in the near future. 

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #53 on: January 21, 2016, 11:53:43 am »
 ??? JFC Fuller, do you then consider that the two countries are ready to produce a UCAV but are instead just building a demonstrator to delay spending money?

Or do you think the UCAV is just a way of holding industry together so that it can work on a "real" fighter in decades to come?
« Last Edit: January 21, 2016, 12:00:59 pm by mrmalaya »

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #54 on: January 21, 2016, 12:40:24 pm »
Just buy into the JSF program as a Partner and be done with it.
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Offline NeilChapman

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #55 on: January 21, 2016, 06:41:08 pm »
Great news!

I was astounded to hear how few they have that are airworthy.  Especially a country the size of Germany.  Incredible.


Offline Pioneer

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #56 on: January 22, 2016, 03:30:57 am »
Great news!

I was astounded to hear how few they have that are airworthy.  Especially a country the size of Germany.  Incredible.

I'm wondering with the changing of times and geo-politics, if Germany might be eying off a more vigorous export sell of this new design, so as to off-set development costs? Because I can't see how Germany could singly burden such a cost?

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Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #57 on: January 22, 2016, 05:02:30 am »
I was thinking about export generally too. Something like the FCAS UCAV (and its technology) is potentially as unexportable as the F22, so are we moving towards a range of aircraft with some more hush hush than others?

After all the dance between France and Britain has been tentative enough and I can't get my head round a 3rd partner in this instance.

Offline Hood

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #58 on: January 22, 2016, 05:40:06 am »
I suspect Germany wants to buy into whatever the technologies Taranis and Neuron mature into. Perhaps a third partner would kickstart some work, but it seems unlikely the RAF will have a use for an UCAV before 2040 and so would probably want to kick an operational type into the long grass with another demonstrator. However, I'm guessing the Franco-German side not being in the F-35 club would want it perhaps 10 years sooner. Still, 20 years is an eon in politics and who knows what the next 2-3 defence reviews will come up with? Surely though the British taxpayer will demand something from BAE eventually? Too often they get a couple of patrol boats and a UAV demonstrator to tide them over until the next big project which is always just around the corner...

I suspect too that the tentative approach is probably influenced by the EU referendum, by 2040 Britain may well be outside the EU and all that might imply about political planning across three nation's needs and technology transfer.

Offline JFC Fuller

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #59 on: January 22, 2016, 06:02:33 am »
I suspect too that the tentative approach is probably influenced by the EU referendum, by 2040 Britain may well be outside the EU and all that might imply about political planning across three nation's needs and technology transfer.

It has nothing to do with it. MoD just doesn't have a requirement, under current planning, until the 2040s. They are also less convinced that the UCAV is such a large part of the solution than they were 5-10 years ago, not least because of the need to provide an air combat capability as well as strike.

Where one might have a point is that the current round of Anglo-French cooperation has hardly lived up to its promises. I note that the MoD SDSR 2015 factsheet mentions the UK will continue next generation technology research with the US in the context of FCAS.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2016, 06:27:06 am by JFC Fuller »

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #60 on: January 22, 2016, 06:42:14 am »
I place almost no value on the 2040 date.

This SDSR (2015) there was confirmation that the UK will continue to fund development of a UCAV under the FCAS programme.

There is no requirement because they haven't worked out what it can do yet.

The next SDSR (2020) is still 20 years from this nominal Typhoon withdrawal date. With any other programme in Defence you would be crazy to think that something 20 years away will definitely happen one way or the other, but by 2020 the FCAS programme will have produced enough information and data to allow its partners to decide how they might use it.

Whether Germany is part of that remains to be seen, but to say that the 2040 date  for the demise of the last Typhoon is an indication of FCAS having no backing seems a bit odd.

And incidentally when will the older Typhoons stop being used? It's not 2040 and those airframes will need replacing with something whether that's F35 or a UCAV.

Offline JFC Fuller

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #61 on: January 22, 2016, 07:05:55 am »
Well you should put value on the 2040 date, OSDs are serious planning assumptions.

There is no requirement because Typhoon + F-35B (including expected growth paths) is an adequate capability set over the medium term.

The UK has a commitment to 138 F-35s with which to replace earlier Tranche Typhoons.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2016, 07:15:26 am by JFC Fuller »

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #62 on: January 22, 2016, 07:30:23 am »
JFC Fuller, please can you do me a favour and supply some hard evidence to support your assertion that the 138 F35 commitment is anything more than the UK saying we will not cancel any of that purchase yet?

The link between not cancelling any of the F35s "over the life of the programme" (a direct quote I believe) and replacement of T1 Typhoons is not something I have seen officially.

On a not unrelated note, 20 years is too long for me to continue bickering with you over what FCAS stands for, or whether it will generate anything meaningful.

I am more than open to creative suggestions on what topic to post FCAS news (this isn't quite it), but there has to be a better way than this.

Everything I have posted here shows that FCAS is producing serious work on a large advanced UCAV for the French and British. You either take the view that the UK is sharing the crown jewels with France (who really have a need for a UCAV) so that they can boost Europe's aviation sector, or you think that the UK is deadly serious when it comes to UCAVs.


Offline JFC Fuller

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #63 on: January 22, 2016, 07:35:50 am »
Yeah, it was stated in the SDSR, if they didn't have to do that- it could have been left deliberately vague but they called it out.

If you actually understood what the current FCAS process is we wouldn't be "bickering". It is a study exercise and broad technology demonstration effort looking at defining next-generation air-power capability. Question one is what does that capability look like. Associated with that is a UCAV demonstration programme, but thats all it is, yet another demonstrator. BAE alone have built half a dozen unmanned demonstrators over the last decade or so. Along with that is a series of technology research activities looking at all the usual stuff, EW radar etc.

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #64 on: January 22, 2016, 07:54:16 am »
Just for clarity, these are the words used: "We will maintain our plan to buy 138 F35 Lightning aircraft over the life of the programme."

When will the F35 programme end and what will it represent in its ultimate form? Perhaps the F35 is the Typhoon T2/T3 replacement? I suspect that no one really knows yet and that everything 25 years away is actually a vague aspiration rather than a solid plan.

The fact is, hundreds and hundreds of millions of £s have been spent by the UK on a) getting to Taranis b) building Taranis and c) developing FCAS.

Germany (see I am trying) will have a need for something much sooner than 2040, as will France and I believe as will the UK too. Not even Spudman thinks France will buy the F35. Not really.


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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #65 on: January 22, 2016, 08:02:00 am »
Not even Spudman thinks France will buy the F35.

True that.

At least France has an active fighter program with multiple exports on the horizon.

I am really surprised that Germany was not part of JSF program from the start given the direction that EF took after the after the breakup with France.
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Offline JFC Fuller

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #66 on: January 22, 2016, 08:10:39 am »
Hundreds and Hundreds? Hardly, Taranis got to just over £200 million then an additional £100 million spent subsequently nationally and with France that runs into 2016. Chuck in perhaps £50 million on other small research contracts over the years and that's £350 million spent between 2006 and 2016 by the UK, £35 million a year on average. Typhoon development cost £6.7 billion by contrast. 
« Last Edit: January 22, 2016, 08:13:04 am by JFC Fuller »

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #67 on: January 22, 2016, 08:18:32 am »
Well you get to 3x100 million with your estimate using rough figures in the public domain (not including the work leading up to Taranis) so lets not quibble on another definition (of multiple hundreds).

And I wonder what money was spent by the UK on what would become Typhoon at a similar stage in the run up to EAP for example?

Anyway I suppose the most reasonable question for this thread is, will FCAS see other parties join it or will there be a parallel project (manned or unmanned) begun with everyone else? And what does SAAB do in all of this?

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #68 on: January 22, 2016, 08:35:37 am »
Hmmm? So small you can't see them apparently? Where might I find those figures?

Offline red admiral

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #69 on: January 22, 2016, 09:51:40 am »
Anyway I suppose the most reasonable question for this thread is, will FCAS see other parties join it or will there be a parallel project (manned or unmanned) begun with everyone else? And what does SAAB do in all of this?

There's a definite feeling in UK to avoid this given how badly we've been screwed by the other Eurofighter nations. In ten years I think only Dassault and BAES will still have the capability to build anything new.

A question for JFC Fuller; how much additional funding for FCAS from SDSR though? Those new contracts have yet to be placed. I don't think anyone expects £6.7bn+ though, but Gripen development cost a lot less than that.

Offline Hood

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #70 on: January 23, 2016, 03:44:00 am »
MoD just doesn't have a requirement, under current planning, until the 2040s. They are also less convinced that the UCAV is such a large part of the solution than they were 5-10 years ago, not least because of the need to provide an air combat capability as well as strike.

So there is no MOD requirement and are unconvinced about the size of the force it might need, yet have already spent £350 million on it and might spend another £200-400 million by 2020 without even starting full development around 10 or 15 years away from a production type. Your looking at £1 billion on R&D even if the current low-level activity continues until 2030 (assuming it takes 10 years for development to achieve IOC in 2040). All this just to keep BAE in the game. By 2040 the US will have operational UCAVs, including operation from carriers. Doubtless BAE will feed into that US research in certain areas but will 15 more years of tinkering with one-off demonstrators be enough to keep pace?

To the politicians of the 2025 & 2030 Defence Reviews, an off-the-shelf purchase of US UCAVs is going to look a tempting bargain compared with trying to replicate a similar programme from the few demonstrators that may follow Taranis, providing the investment to build/refit a new manufacturing plant for BAE Systems and manage all the inherent risks of delays and cost overruns and technical problems without an international partner, especially if the planned numbers are uneconomically small.

« Last Edit: January 23, 2016, 03:47:37 am by Hood »

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #71 on: January 23, 2016, 06:41:24 am »
Time will tell. I sometimes get tired of arguing in the face of cynicism when it come to this topic.

If you think the UK MOD/Gov/BAE are only capable of wasting time, money and talent then so be it- carry on with the assertions.

I personally post here because I am excited by the technology and it's capability and have been for decades. I believe the UK wants a UCAV that will be useful and as such needs to make sure its not just a remotely piloted jet (witness the AI in Taranis).

As to the UK and US working together, I personally think it's more likely that we will buy into the future air dominance capability to replace the newer Typhoons and fly alongside the F35 fleet. Our 2 defence departments have been talking about it for a couple of years now (although I have seen only one reference in the media).

That leaves some wriggle room for a European manned fighter I guess.

So much for my optimism, I will leave JFC Fuller to downplay everything FCAS related ;)

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Offline Reaper

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #73 on: January 24, 2016, 09:59:05 am »
I thought the topic was about Germany and not about UKs future plans!?

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #74 on: January 24, 2016, 11:44:46 am »
I wonder if we should have a merged topic for next generation European work?

It is very hard to delineate FCAS Franglais and FCAS Deutsche at this point.

New thread created here: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,26549.0.html
« Last Edit: January 24, 2016, 12:14:04 pm by mrmalaya »

Offline Jemiba

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #75 on: January 25, 2016, 09:29:49 am »
I wonder if we should have a merged topic for next generation European work? ...

Starting point were the rather vague announcements by the German Ministry of Defence.
It's not at all clear, which other countries should and would be asked for participation, nor
what actually will be developed. To my opinion, it was more or less just a reminder to those
in charge "The Tornado won't last forever !".
So I think, we shouldn't mix it up with other European (or maybe international ?) plans
and projects.
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #76 on: January 25, 2016, 10:37:04 am »
There is no cynicism or downplaying from me, I am just attempting to get you to understand what FCAS actually is. It's a study and low-level R&D exercise and currently not a lot more. It could yet turn into all sorts of things but currently its actually quite limited.

I am not sure how you think to know the ins & outs of this being as much of it is classified.

Offline marauder2048

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #77 on: January 25, 2016, 02:31:27 pm »
Related stupid question time: could someone shed some light on dual capable Tornado and B61-12 integration?  Last I heard was yes it is being integrated but in System I (ballistic only) mode.

Offline marauder2048

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Related stupid question time: could someone shed some light on dual capable Tornado and B61-12 integration?  Last I heard was yes it is being integrated but in System I (ballistic only) mode.

Looks like B61-12 integration is moving forward on Tornado. Wonder if Sandia used a Tornado from the German Air Force contingent at Holloman AFB...

http://www.sandia.gov/news/publications/lab_accomplishments/articles/2016/nuclear-weapons-engineering.html

Offline fightingirish

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Quote from:  marauder2048
[...]Wonder if Sandia used a Tornado from the German Air Force contingent at Holloman AFB... [...]
According to member at the German forum 'Flugzeugforum.de', the German Tornado '98+60' from the WDT 61, normally stationed at Manching AFB (ETSI), was used for these tests at Eglin AFB.
The GAF Tornado '98+60' and a USAF KC-10 '79-1946'  took off from Manching AFB on April 5th, 2016.
Source: http://www.flugzeugforum.de/threads/83286-Flugbetrieb-in-Manching-ETSI-2016/page19
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Offline Airplane

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Just buy into the JSF program as a Partner and be done with it.
 ::)

Yeah, replace the Tornado with a light attack fighter, that carries.... let's count 'em, one bomb, two bombs. Woo hoo! And limited range on top of it too when in "stealth" mode. 
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Offline Mat Parry

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How many 2000lb bombs do you imagine a tornado carries?

Offline marauder2048

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According to member at the German forum 'Flugzeugforum.de', the German Tornado '98+60' from the WDT 61, normally stationed at Manching AFB (ETSI), was used for these tests at Eglin AFB.
The GAF Tornado '98+60' and a USAF KC-10 '79-1946'  took off from Manching AFB on April 5th, 2016.
Source: http://www.flugzeugforum.de/threads/83286-Flugbetrieb-in-Manching-ETSI-2016/page19

I'm very grateful for the info.

Yeah, replace the Tornado with a light attack fighter, that carries.... let's count 'em, one bomb, two bombs. Woo hoo! And limited range on top of it too when in "stealth" mode. 

Is the typical DCA loadout greater than two bombs?

Offline Avimimus

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True. But the F-35 runs into more trouble if it tries to match the Brimstone or ALARM loads... of course the F-35 could be developed to use external hardpoints - but then how is it superior to the Tornado? Avionics perhaps.

I agree that the F-35 is possible (and certainly the problems that make it unsuitable for Canada aren't problems for Germany).

However, aren't you curious what a 5+ Gen tactical bomber would look like?? A European styled F/B-23 or F/B-22 equivalent? Even if it never gets built - I'd love to see some studies!

Offline mrmalaya

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Replica? :)

It's fairly certain they are going to upgrade Typhoon and look at a UCAV to buy isn't it?

Offline TomS

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True. But the F-35 runs into more trouble if it tries to match the Brimstone or ALARM loads... of course the F-35 could be developed to use external hardpoints - but then how is it superior to the Tornado? Avionics perhaps.

"Could be developed"?  The F-35 is flying with weapons on external hard points right now.  It was always intended to fly with external loads for most of its missions.  But unlike Tornado, it has the option of going all internal and having a credible degree of stealth for Day One strikes when needed. 

Offline bring_it_on

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Offline sferrin

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Just buy into the JSF program as a Partner and be done with it.
 ::)

Yeah, replace the Tornado with a light attack fighter, that carries.... let's count 'em, one bomb, two bombs. Woo hoo! And limited range on top of it too when in "stealth" mode.

How much range does the Tornado have in stealth mode? How many bombs does it carry internally? Reading your post, one can't help but wonder if you even know what an F-35 is.
"DARPA Hard"  It ain't what it use to be.

Offline Airplane

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Just buy into the JSF program as a Partner and be done with it.
 ::)

Yeah, replace the Tornado with a light attack fighter, that carries.... let's count 'em, one bomb, two bombs. Woo hoo! And limited range on top of it too when in "stealth" mode.


How much range does the Tornado have in stealth mode? How many bombs does it carry internally? Reading your post, one can't help but wonder if you even know what an F-35 is.

The Tornado is stealthier than i...

There are many who recognize that a 90s replacement for the F-117 (2 bombs with limited range) fielded 20 years after conception is not the optimal solution for all their requirements.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2016, 09:53:15 am by Jemiba »
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Offline sferrin

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Just buy into the JSF program as a Partner and be done with it.
 ::)

Yeah, replace the Tornado with a light attack fighter, that carries.... let's count 'em, one bomb, two bombs. Woo hoo! And limited range on top of it too when in "stealth" mode.


How much range does the Tornado have in stealth mode? How many bombs does it carry internally? Reading your post, one can't help but wonder if you even know what an F-35 is.

The Tornado is stealthier than you think.

There are many who recognize that a 90s replacement for the F-117 (2 bombs with limited range) fielded 20 years after conception is not the optimal solution for all their requirements.

Sounds like somebody forgot their meds this morning.  How many 2000lb bombs does the Tornado carry?

« Last Edit: June 15, 2016, 10:15:26 am by Jemiba »
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Offline mrmalaya

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How many 2000lb bombs have Luftwaffe Tornadoes dropped in combat?

It's all a little theoretical, but I cannot see the Germans (given how they are so very Eurocentric) doing anything other than spending the bare minimum on Typhoon and hoping that the Anglo/French work amounts to something.

Offline Avimimus

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True. But the F-35 runs into more trouble if it tries to match the Brimstone or ALARM loads... of course the F-35 could be developed to use external hardpoints - but then how is it superior to the Tornado? Avionics perhaps.

"Could be developed"?  The F-35 is flying with weapons on external hard points right now.  It was always intended to fly with external loads for most of its missions.  But unlike Tornado, it has the option of going all internal and having a credible degree of stealth for Day One strikes when needed.

True. I was referencing integration of European weapons like the Brimstone and ALARM though. The F-35 can't currently field them.

Offline Airplane

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How many 2000lb bombs have Luftwaffe Tornadoes dropped in combat?


How many US fighters have shot down another fighter with a cannon, but yet the requirement for a cannon remains.  Just because 'you' haven't used something in combat does not mean that the requirement is thrown out.

Also there are heat issues with F-35's weapons bays............... Are all European munitions rated for those bays, and or those operating temps? 
« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 12:40:13 am by Jemiba »
"The test of success is not what you do when your on top. Success is how high you bounce when you hit bottom.”
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Offline TomS

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True. I was referencing integration of European weapons like the Brimstone and ALARM though. The F-35 can't currently field them.


ALARM is already retired, which is why it's not integrated on the F-35.  Brimstone is supposed to be integrated, I believe, and then replaced by SPEAR-3, which can be carried internally or externally.  It's going to take a couple of years, but it's budgeted and scheduled.


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True. I was referencing integration of European weapons like the Brimstone and ALARM though. The F-35 can't currently field them.

Interesting that in a thread regarding German requirements you reference two weapons that Germany does not use.  The RAF which does/did use them though seems quite happy with the F-35 in regard to them.  They (more likely the SPEAR-3 derivative will be integrated in the near future.

Offline marauder2048

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True. I was referencing integration of European weapons like the Brimstone and ALARM though. The F-35 can't currently field them.

Interesting that in a thread regarding German requirements you reference two weapons that Germany does not use.  The RAF which does/did use them though seems quite happy with the F-35 in regard to them.  They (more likely the SPEAR-3 derivative will be integrated in the near future.

Curious if MBDA's teaming arrangement on AARGM extends to a derivative like AARGM-ER (including sharing integration costs on platforms); the Navy's paying for internal carriage on the F-35 A/C models and external carriage on the Super Bug. 

Offline Avimimus

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True. I was referencing integration of European weapons like the Brimstone and ALARM though. The F-35 can't currently field them.

Interesting that in a thread regarding German requirements you reference two weapons that Germany does not use.  The RAF which does/did use them though seems quite happy with the F-35 in regard to them.  They (more likely the SPEAR-3 derivative will be integrated in the near future.

Very true about the ALARM. I'm also not that sure what Germany's doctrines are with regard to deploying the Tornado. I was just indicating that we have yet to see if the JSF will be adapted to deploy a large number (9-12 per sortie) of anti-radiation or anti-vehicle missiles.

Also, I wouldn't deny that the F-35 is pretty well suited to replace the Tornado. There may be a couple of exceptions:
- Single seat rather than two-seat design
- Required runway length may be higher
- I suspect that the Tornado may be able to spend more time supersonic at sea level (heating issues mainly)

In all other areas the F-35 seems to have an advantage (except perhaps cost).

Offline bring_it_on

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SDB-2,  JSM, SPEAR, AARGM-ER (externally and internally) and once that is integrated the standard AARGM shouldnt be a stretch externaly. There are plenty of. Choices... And if those aren't enough one could always get in and ask for Brimstone or JAGM integration.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2016, 07:30:14 pm by bring_it_on »
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Offline GTX

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Some comments in red.


Also, I wouldn't deny that the F-35 is pretty well suited to replace the Tornado. There may be a couple of exceptions:
- Single seat rather than two-seat design - why would you need the second seat?  No-one else seems to view it as a requirement anymore especially since software/systems etc can provide enhanced SA etc.
- Required runway length may be higher - hardly an issue (has anyone done a comparison?) and if it were, there is always the F-35B
- I suspect that the Tornado may be able to spend more time supersonic at sea level (heating issues mainly) - again, is this really an issue?

In all other areas the F-35 seems to have an advantage (except perhaps cost). - I think you will find a production F-35 will cost much less than a specialised newly developed Tornado replacement.

Offline Reaper

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I suspect the Tornado replacement discussion with governments and industry will take so long that it will end in a EF replacement discussion.

Offline Jeb

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- I suspect that the Tornado may be able to spend more time supersonic at sea level (heating issues mainly)


Tornado's supersonic at sea level performance is only of value because it was developed when swing-wings were still in vogue and "stealth" was something catburglers were concerned with. F-35s don't have to stay in the weeds to avoid becoming SAM pincushions.

Offline GTX

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Tornado's supersonic at sea level performance is only of value because it was developed when swing-wings were still in vogue and "stealth" was something catburglers were concerned with. F-35s don't have to stay in the weeds to avoid becoming SAM pincushions.

Indeed - see the '91 Gulf War (specifically RAF Tornado operations) for an example of why this is the case.

Offline marauder2048

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- I suspect that the Tornado may be able to spend more time supersonic at sea level (heating issues mainly)


Tornado's supersonic at sea level performance is only of value because it was developed when swing-wings were still in vogue and "stealth" was something catburglers were concerned with. F-35s don't have to stay in the weeds to avoid becoming SAM pincushions.

OTOH, low altitude, supersonic delivery might be important for ensuring the survival of a glide bomb like B61-12 which doesn't appear to have even SRAM's level of signature reduction.

Offline sferrin

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Tornado's supersonic at sea level performance is only of value because it was developed when swing-wings were still in vogue and "stealth" was something catburglers were concerned with. F-35s don't have to stay in the weeds to avoid becoming SAM pincushions.

Indeed - see the '91 Gulf War (specifically RAF Tornado operations) for an example of why this is the case.

They didn't have a great time.  IIRC they were tasked with anti-runway missions, right in the middle of AAA.  Don't recall if they were using the MW-1 or JP233.  (I seem to recall only Germany used the MW-1 and they sat the Gulf War out.)
« Last Edit: June 18, 2016, 07:45:00 pm by sferrin »
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Offline TomS

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One loss using JP223.  A couple others on low-level laydown or toss deliveries of 1000-lb bombs.  And several more in medium-level deliveries of either 1000-lb dumb bombs or LGBs.  The common thread was attacks on highly defended targets, mostly airfields.  Turns out that flying near defended airfields was risky at any altitude.

Offline muttbutt

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Quote
Tim Robinson ‏@RAeSTimR 5h5 hours ago

Systems of systems FCAS not a Eurofighter replacement - but a Tornado successor concept for 2030-40s. Gutierrez #TMB16

Quote
Tim Robinson ‏@RAeSTimR 5h5 hours ago

FCAS, like Tornado, would be a 2-pilot combat aircraft. #TMB16

Quote
Tim Robinson ‏@RAeSTimR 5h5 hours ago

FCAS - scalable, adaptable, would give operational sovereignty and open to partnerships beyond Europe. #TMB16
0 retweets 1 like

Quote
Tim Robinson ‏@RAeSTimR 5h5 hours ago

Don't call FCAS a '6th gen fighter' says Gutirrez - "that's a Lockheed Martin classification" #TMB16
2 retweets 1 like



From here.
https://twitter.com/RAeSTimR
« Last Edit: August 20, 2018, 03:09:02 am by flateric »

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Offline marauder2048

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Interesting development: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,27454.0.html

The early 2040's would also coincide with the currently planned End-of-Life for the B61-12.

Offline Airplane

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True. I was referencing integration of European weapons like the Brimstone and ALARM though. The F-35 can't currently field them.

Interesting that in a thread regarding German requirements you reference two weapons that Germany does not use.  The RAF which does/did use them though seems quite happy with the F-35 in regard to them.  They (more likely the SPEAR-3 derivative will be integrated in the near future.

Very true about the ALARM. I'm also not that sure what Germany's doctrines are with regard to deploying the Tornado. I was just indicating that we have yet to see if the JSF will be adapted to deploy a large number (9-12 per sortie) of anti-radiation or anti-vehicle missiles.

Also, I wouldn't deny that the F-35 is pretty well suited to replace the Tornado. There may be a couple of exceptions:
- Single seat rather than two-seat design
- Required runway length may be higher
- I suspect that the Tornado may be able to spend more time supersonic at sea level (heating issues mainly)

In all other areas the F-35 seems to have an advantage (except perhaps cost).

The f35 has such a piss poor time trying to shed heat that it can't fly low level at high speed. It physically can't do low altitude and high speed. Ironic that with its radar, ir, das, and sensor fusion it could have been the best low altitude high speed penetrator, but it can't fly that profile to save its life because of thermal management.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2016, 06:42:20 pm by Airplane »
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Offline TomS

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Not sure anyone is terribly broken up about that.  Low and fast hasn't been an attractive profile for a long time.

Offline Hood

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Note sure what to make of the Airbus fighter.

Personally I think its easy publicity material to make some hazy generic 6th gen fighter 3-D models and say this is what might happen for the 2040s. I seriously doubt there would be many 6- year old Tornados left in any European country by then.

Also, Airbus doesn't make military aircraft (I'm discounting the Atlas and armed regional airliners and helicopters). The Eurofighter has its own consortium and I have doubts that unless the European partners feel giving development to Airbus is going to be cheaper, easier and quicker than forming another consortium of national companies to develop a Tornado successor that Airbus would be entrusted with it alone. BAE Systems might have something to say about that (unless of course they view anything but component assembly as not being profitable enough for them to bother with). At this point in time BAE and Dassault can point to Taranis and Neuron while Airbus has no such experience in design. Also, who is going to develop the engine since I'm assuming very little of the Eurofighter can be used without some modernisation and optimisation. 

Offline mrmalaya

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That was my thinking too. MAKO or Barracuda are both a long time ago and even longer by the time you get to 2030. I suppose it's the German portion of Airbus trying to be relevant to a domestic requirement.

Offline TomS

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Also, Airbus doesn't make military aircraft (I'm discounting the Atlas and armed regional airliners and helicopters). The Eurofighter has its own consortium ...

And about half of that consortium (46%) is Airbus DS.  It doesn't see that outlandish that Airbus DS would do its own design studies with an eye toward a leading role in a new consortium for a future strike aircraft.

Offline sferrin

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Also, Airbus doesn't make military aircraft (I'm discounting the Atlas and armed regional airliners and helicopters). The Eurofighter has its own consortium ...

And about half of that consortium (46%) is Airbus DS.  It doesn't see that outlandish that Airbus DS would do its own design studies with an eye toward a leading role in a new consortium for a future strike aircraft.

Yeah.  Not any crazier than Boeing trying to do a fighter.
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Surely much too early ... but at least a concept from Airbus:

https://twitter.com/RAeSTimR/status/744890511199207424

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Offline GTX

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The f35 has such a piss poor time trying to shed heat that it can't fly low level at high speed. It physically can't do low altitude and high speed. Ironic that with its radar, ir, das, and sensor fusion it could have been the best low altitude high speed penetrator, but it can't fly that profile to save its life because of thermal management.

Facts please

Offline DrRansom

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The f35 has such a piss poor time trying to shed heat that it can't fly low level at high speed. It physically can't do low altitude and high speed. Ironic that with its radar, ir, das, and sensor fusion it could have been the best low altitude high speed penetrator, but it can't fly that profile to save its life because of thermal management.

Facts please

The F-35's low altitude heat problems has been known for a while, see this story which references it:
http://nationalinterest.org/feature/f-35-needs-bigger-more-powerful-engine-12491

That doesn't answer the question if low altitude penetration is necessary or not in the future A2/AD environment. That is better answered by people with access to classified combat analysis tools.

For two pilots, I can see that being a great advantage for a plane managing an attending UAV swarm.

Offline sferrin

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The f35 has such a piss poor time trying to shed heat that it can't fly low level at high speed. It physically can't do low altitude and high speed. Ironic that with its radar, ir, das, and sensor fusion it could have been the best low altitude high speed penetrator, but it can't fly that profile to save its life because of thermal management.

Why the HELL would you want to fly a stealth aircraft at low level where any dummy with a gun can shoot you?   ::)
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Offline sferrin

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Not sure anyone is terribly broken up about that.  Low and fast hasn't been an attractive profile for a long time.

Since about 20 minutes after Desert Storm started.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2016, 01:49:17 pm by sferrin »
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Offline DrRansom

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Not sure anyone is terribly broken up about that.  Low and fast hasn't been an attractive profile for a long time.

We will have to see how this evolves, as more advanced / integrated radar systems proliferate. Multi-static radar systems (perhaps even based off emitters on expendable UAVs) + active homing seeking SAMs with terminal shaping could make medium altitude much more dangerous that it has been in the past.

Offline marauder2048

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Not sure anyone is terribly broken up about that.  Low and fast hasn't been an attractive profile for a long time.

We will have to see how this evolves, as more advanced / integrated radar systems proliferate. Multi-static radar systems (perhaps even based off emitters on expendable UAVs) + active homing seeking SAMs with terminal shaping could make medium altitude much more dangerous that it has been in the past.

IMHO, all of the C-RAM/C-UAV efforts coupled with the proliferation of aerostats with multi-mode sensors (the Israelis just showed off a new Aerostat sensor payload and the Russians are standing up a dedicated Aersotat/Balloon corp) makes low-and-whatever just as problematic from a manned aircraft survivability standpoint. 



 
« Last Edit: June 21, 2016, 04:00:51 pm by marauder2048 »

Offline muttbutt

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Quote
Airbus DS defining FCAS aircraft requirements with Bundeswehr
Gareth Jennings, Munich - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
20 June 2016

Airbus Defence and Space (DS) is currently working with the German armed forces (Bundeswehr) to identify future threats and capability needs to inform its work on the Future Combat Air System (FCAS), a senior company official told reporters on 20 June.

An illustrative rendition of what the FCAS might look like. Airbus is currently working with the German government to define future requirements and threats as it looks to refine its concept for the platform. (Airbus DS)An illustrative rendition of what the FCAS might look like. Airbus is currently working with the German government to define future requirements and threats as it looks to refine its concept for the platform. (Airbus DS)

Speaking at the company's Ottobrun facility near Munich, Alberto Gutierrez, head of the Eurofighter programme, said that Airbus DS and the Bundeswehr are looking at expected operational requirements and the latest technologies that will be available in the 2030-40 timeframe that the FCAS is expected to enter into service.

The FCAS project to replace the German Air Force's Panavia Tornado and to complement the Eurofighter Typhoon manned combat aircraft was first revealed in the Air Capability Strategy Paper released by the German government in January. No details were released at that time, except that the platform might be manned, unmanned, or optionally manned.

Dubbed the Next-Generation Weapon System by Airbus DS, the FCAS will likely be "a system of systems" according to Gutierrez. Given the aircraft's relatively near-term entry-into-service date of between 2030 and 2040, he noted that unmanned technologies will probably not be sufficiently advanced by that time for it to be a completely unmanned solution.

"The German government asked Airbus to consider alternatives for a Tornado replacement that will be complementary with the Eurofighter. In principle, it could be a system of systems - either a manned and unmanned combination. [We have determined that unmanned combat air vehicles] UCAVs will not be at technology state ready by 2030-40 to support Eurofighters. It could be optionally manned, with two crew - one for command and control [and one pilot]," he said.

Gutierrez noted that the tight timelines and the need to keep costs at a minimum means that Airbus DS is looking at incorporating existing technologies and programme structures and partnerships into the project.
rest on here
http://www.janes.com/article/61628/airbus-ds-defining-fcas-aircraft-requirements-with-bundeswehr

Offline muttbutt

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Airbus DS defining FCAS aircraft requirements with Bundeswehr
    Gareth Jennings, Munich - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
    20 June 2016

    Airbus Defence and Space (DS) is currently working with the German armed forces (Bundeswehr) to identify future threats and capability needs to inform its work on the Future Combat Air System (FCAS), a senior company official told reporters on 20 June.

    An illustrative rendition of what the FCAS might look like. Airbus is currently working with the German government to define future requirements and threats as it looks to refine its concept for the platform. (Airbus DS)An illustrative rendition of what the FCAS might look like. Airbus is currently working with the German government to define future requirements and threats as it looks to refine its concept for the platform. (Airbus DS)

    Speaking at the company's Ottobrun facility near Munich, Alberto Gutierrez, head of the Eurofighter programme, said that Airbus DS and the Bundeswehr are looking at expected operational requirements and the latest technologies that will be available in the 2030-40 timeframe that the FCAS is expected to enter into service.

    The FCAS project to replace the German Air Force's Panavia Tornado and to complement the Eurofighter Typhoon manned combat aircraft was first revealed in the Air Capability Strategy Paper released by the German government in January. No details were released at that time, except that the platform might be manned, unmanned, or optionally manned.

    Dubbed the Next-Generation Weapon System by Airbus DS, the FCAS will likely be "a system of systems" according to Gutierrez. Given the aircraft's relatively near-term entry-into-service date of between 2030 and 2040, he noted that unmanned technologies will probably not be sufficiently advanced by that time for it to be a completely unmanned solution.

    "The German government asked Airbus to consider alternatives for a Tornado replacement that will be complementary with the Eurofighter. In principle, it could be a system of systems - either a manned and unmanned combination. [We have determined that unmanned combat air vehicles] UCAVs will not be at technology state ready by 2030-40 to support Eurofighters. It could be optionally manned, with two crew - one for command and control [and one pilot]," he said.

    Gutierrez noted that the tight timelines and the need to keep costs at a minimum means that Airbus DS is looking at incorporating existing technologies and programme structures and partnerships into the project.

rest on here
http://www.janes.com/article/61628/airbus-ds-defining-fcas-aircraft-requirements-with-bundeswehr

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Looks like the T-50.
"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
- Sir Sydney Camm

Offline DrRansom

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IMHO, all of the C-RAM/C-UAV efforts coupled with the proliferation of aerostats with multi-mode sensors (the Israelis just showed off a new Aerostat sensor payload and the Russians are standing up a dedicated Aersotat/Balloon corp) makes low-and-whatever just as problematic from a manned aircraft survivability standpoint.

Good point, I wonder if the first rule of future air combat is don't get within 10 - 30nm of the target. There'll be so many weapon systems and sensors in that zone that anything broadband stealth, low and fast, high and faster, will get killed.

Though, C-RAM / C-UAV will still be focused on relatively slow targets. (For now, I suspect future tactical UAVs will start getting faster.)

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Though, C-RAM / C-UAV will still be focused on relatively slow targets. (For now, I suspect future tactical UAVs will start getting faster.)

A lot of first gen C-RAM solutions are basically repackaged naval CIWS.  They can deal with rather fast targets, as long as they're not crossing.

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F-22 meets BAe Replica, and everything gets rear-ended by a T-50.

I really hope it will look closer to the Replica, which in my opinion is the best looking project ever designed.
That is, if this effort will ever proceed to anything substantial.

Regards.
Regards.

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Offline fightingirish

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F-22 meets BAe Replica, and everything gets rear-ended by a T-50. [...]
Yes, this concept is quite inspired by other "6th gen fighters. It might be last two manned aircraft of the Western world.
Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/airbus-studying-manned-successor-for-german-tornados-426634/
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 01:47:14 am by fightingirish »
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Offline NeilChapman

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Well...

Let's see who the Germans partnered with on the Tornado?  Maybe they'll partner again.

Royal Air Force?   Nope - they're replacing their Tornado's and Harriers w/F-35's.
Italian Air Force?  Nope - they leased Tornado's from the UK but replaced those w/F16's when the lease was up.  Now they're getting F-35's.
Royal Saudi Air Force?  Maybe - they've got 150 or so F-15's with another ~80 odd coming + ~70 Typhoons.  Who knows.

The Germans need jets.  They need to work well w/NATO.  Why not purchase 65 F-35's until you get it figured out.  They can get the jets (and the production jobs) that the Canadians don't seem to want.  They'll probably do a great job on the parts.

The state of their equipment is as bad as the United States - unfortunately.  I'll include a graphic from a report published a couple of years ago.  It's likely the situation hasn't improved since then.


Offline Hood

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I don't see this going ahead without external partners, I suppose its possible the French might get on board, but right now this seems a niche product. As a competitor to F-35 it has little chance though it might appeal to India if they wanted a dedicated strike platform.
Also, using Eurofighter components might not be that easy or straightforward and I guess the avionics would be quite different for a strike role and UCAV node.
Another factor is Airbus DS really capable of such a programme? The Atlas programme is way behind schedule and seemingly never far from problems of some sort and given that it has a large market largely to itself it hasn't really sold on the export market.

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KAI maybe capable after they designed KFX

Offline NeilChapman

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KAI maybe capable after they designed KFX

Let's not leave out the Japanese.  There's a lot of tech being tested in the X-2.

Offline mrmalaya

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I've always seen Japanese requirements as being closer to Britain's if we are looking at joint-development.

Offline kaiserd

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I've always seen Japanese requirements as being closer to Britain's if we are looking at joint-development.

Requirements for what?
Japanese requirements are for an F-22 equivalent (enphasis on air superiority role).
Their current demonstrator is essentially a lightweight sub-scale test bed for a future fighter/ interceptor; long way from deep penetration striker" aircraft.

Rather different to strike-tailored Tornado replacement, especially if going for a subsonic platform.

The F-35 and advanced UCAVs likely to leave little room or money for a new aircraft in this class.
Perhaps way down the line the US Programes (lead by or exclusive to the US) to replace the F-22 & Super Hornet will lead to such an aircraft  emerging but the Tornados are all likely to be gone by then.

Germany likely to make do with its Eurofighters (including as Tornado replacement) for a very long time; may buy small numbers of a stealthy UCAV (product of UK/French developments, with token German involvement) as a complement. If not a small F-35 buy possible but unlikely.

Offline mrmalaya

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Yes I was being too general and I apologise.

However it is my opinion that a follow on fighter project deriving from this technology demonstrator will have potential as an RAF Typhoon replacement.

It is all decades away so I don't see how one can be any more specific than that, but clearly we are talking about a Euro project and I was simply saying that I thought Japanese efforts might be more attractive elsewhere.

Offline fightingirish

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Another illustration from AirbusDS shows how the FCAS network would 'scale' upwards. Note external fuel tanks and Meteors. (AirbusDS).
Source: http://www.aerosociety.com/News/Insight-Blog/4514/Airbus-reveals-Tornado-successor-concept-for-2040s
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Offline mrmalaya

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Safe to say the artwork is no more than that then?

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"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

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Note the designation NGWS - Next Gen Weapon System
« Last Edit: July 07, 2016, 04:16:20 pm by flateric »
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

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Note fast-packs a-la Silent Eagle with weapon bays.
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline mrmalaya

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This is an interesting schematic. As much as it has Barracuda and Sagitta on it, the manned jet does have details on it which appear to be part of a genuine design, not just artwork.

The idea of being able to plug into a system of systems would appeal to many forces. I suppose the key difference is whether you plan for two seats or one (depending on autonomy of UCAV).

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #144 on: March 24, 2017, 07:09:41 am »
...
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline hesham

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #145 on: March 24, 2017, 09:36:52 am »
Just seen,great find Muttbutt.

Offline red admiral

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #146 on: March 24, 2017, 12:58:07 pm »
Where did you find that picture flateric? Technical paper? Looks like there's a few differences beyond the obvious 2D nozzle.

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #147 on: March 24, 2017, 02:00:21 pm »
Whilst speaking to some LM senior people lately they indicated Germany is talking to LM re potential F-35 options here.

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #148 on: March 24, 2017, 02:06:49 pm »
Just to reference my post above about Japan and the UK developing a fighter with the story running in AW about just such a project:

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,28790.0.html

Not gloating, just a little smug.

Offline flateric

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #149 on: March 24, 2017, 02:28:51 pm »
Where did you find that picture flateric? Technical paper? Looks like there's a few differences beyond the obvious 2D nozzle.
http://aerospace-europe.eu/media/books/CEAS2015_119.pdf
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline red admiral

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #150 on: March 24, 2017, 02:42:28 pm »
Whilst speaking to some LM senior people lately they indicated Germany is talking to LM re potential F-35 options here.

Pretty obvious choice. I doubt Germany has the political will, money or capability to develop a new aircraft like this.

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #152 on: March 24, 2017, 11:21:56 pm »
Maybe recent threat from Russia boost such a project

Offline Hood

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #153 on: March 25, 2017, 03:24:48 am »
The picture is captioned as a generic design so I don't think we can read too much into it, the forward fuselage/cockpit area looks very much like an F-22, probably really is just a concept 3D artwork based on existing planforms as an example.

If Airbus' support for Eurofighter really has been so poor with Germany and Austria, and relations with the German defence ministry strained, then its no surprise they are looking elsewhere. With the rest of NATO heading towards the F-35 it makes sense for Germany to procure some to replace Tornado.

Offline GTX

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #154 on: March 25, 2017, 12:08:36 pm »
Maybe recent threat from Russia boost such a project

If anything, that would boost the chances of an F-35 buy.

Offline muttbutt

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #155 on: April 01, 2017, 11:50:53 am »
Quote
Aerospace giant Airbus is planning a next-generation European fighter jet, the group's defence chief said Friday, hoping to profit from the Old Continent's renewed commitment to reach NATO defence spending targets.

"We are currently putting together pre-design studies to show what such an aircraft could look like," Airbus Defence and Space chief executive Dirk Hoke told German business daily Handelsblatt. "We're speaking very intensively with European governments.

Rest the the link, no images, and a very rough outline of whats going on..
http://www.journal-aviation.com/en/news/36210-airbus-hopes-to-build-new-european-fighter-jet

Offline marauder2048

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Germany asks U.S. for classified briefing on Lockheed's F-35 fighter

By Andrea Shalal | BERLIN

The German Air Force this month sent the U.S. military a written request for classified data on the
Lockheed Martin Corp (LMT.N) F-35 fighter jet as it gears up to replace its current fleet of fighter
jets from 2025 to 2035.

The letter, sent by the Air Force's planning command and seen by Reuters, makes clear that the
German government has not yet authorized a procurement program and is not committed to any
particular aircraft to replace its current warplanes.

It said the defense ministry would carry out "an in-depth evaluation of market available solutions,
including the F-35, later this year," with a formal "letter of request" to be issued in coming months.

Germany's interest in the F-35 - the Pentagon's most advanced warplane and its costliest
procurement program - may surprise some given that it is part of the four-nation consortium that
developed the fourth-generation Eurofighter Typhoon, which continues to compete for new orders.

The Eurofighter is built by Airbus (AIR.PA) as well as Britain's BAE Systems (BAES.L) and Leonardo
(LDOF.MI) of Italy.

Germany will need to replace its current fleet of fourth-generation warplanes - Tornadoes in use
since 1981 and Eurofighters - between 2025 and 2035. The F-35 is considered a fifth-generation
fighter given stealth capabilities that allow it to evade enemy radars.

Berlin's letter also comes amid growing tensions between the West and Russia over Moscow's
support for separatists in eastern Ukraine, with NATO officials saying that Russian naval activity
now exceeds levels seen even during the Cold War.

Britain, the Netherlands, Norway, Turkey and Italy - key NATO allies of Germany - are already
buying the F-35 fighter jet to replace their current aircraft, and other European countries
such as Switzerland, Belgium and Finland are also looking at purchasing the fifth-generation warplane.

Germany's gesture may be aimed at strengthening its hand in negotiations with its European
partners over the scale and timing of development of a next generation of European fighters.
Any moves to buy a U.S. built warplane could run into political resistance in Germany, which has strong
labor unions.

But military sources say buying the F-35 could make sense for Germany given steady declines in the
cost of the U.S. jets, and technical challenges with the Eurofighter.

EIGHT-HOUR BRIEFING

In the letter, the Air Force said a small team of air force officers was gathering data to prepare for
a detailed analysis of alternatives for a new warplane.

The group was working closely with the ministry's "Task Force Future Air Combat System," which
aims to make a recommendation for a political decision in mid-2018, the letter said.

"In order to understand (the) F-35's cutting-edge technologies, the German Air Force is requesting
a classified brief of the F-35's capabilities in general and especially concerning sensor suites,
information management and operational capabilities," the letter said.

The letter said a video conference suggested by U.S. officials in Bonn would help speed up the process.

A source familiar with U.S. weapons programs said the classified briefing requested by Germany
would likely last around eight hours.

Since Germany is not part of the international consortium that funded development of the stealthy
new fighter, the request for classified information must first be approved by the U.S. government,
but U.S. officials said they did not expect any problems securing the needed marketing license.

The Pentagon's F-35 program office said it had received the letter and was "working to support the
German Air Force request."

Lockheed referred questions to the State Department, which oversees foreign military sales, and
the Pentagon. Spokesman Michael Rein said it would be inappropriate for Lockheed to comment
since any potential sales would be negotiated between the two governments.

The F-35 is in operational use by the U.S. Marine Corps and the U.S. Air Force, which last month
carried out its first operational deployment of a small number of jets to Estonia for training with
other U.S. and NATO military aircraft.

The U.S. Air Force this month also announced this month that it plans to bring the F-35 to the
Paris Air Show in June.

(Reporting by Andrea Shalal; Editing by Keith Weir and Mark Potter)

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-lockheed-fighter-germany-exclusive-idUSKCN18D13X

Offline bobbymike

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Pure speculation on my part but this comes closely on the heels of Eurofighters having lots of trouble with 5th Gen stealth at the latest exercises.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2017, 05:19:18 pm by flateric »
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Offline marauder2048

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More speculation:

Maybe Sandia's B61-12 vibration, acoustics, and temperature testing on the PA-200 revealed some issues.

In any event, PA-200 will likely need a concerted SEAD effort to permit its System 1 (analog/ballistic) only deliery of B61-12.



Offline Michel Van

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Let's face it, this will end up as a European Program
because Germany has not budget to singel-handedly build such Aircraft
They will looking for partners and have same trouble with Tornado or Eurofighter development
Too much meddling partners and fraction that quit the program

They give Airbus the order to develop new fighter
and Airbus screw it up, extrem cost overrun, years of delays, prototype failure and serial model unusable for some minor reason
see Eurofighter and that Transporter nightmare they build

German Government or BundesWehr would be better off
If they join forces with French and build modified Rafale that do job like Tornado
I love Strange Technology

Offline mrmalaya

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Pure speculation on my part but this comes closely on the heels of Eurofighters having lots of trouble with 5th Gen stealth at the latest exercises.

I had read that they worked together rather than flew against each other?

Germany, unique amongst the partners, is having trouble running its Eurofighter fleet and will probably have trouble running the next fleet too if you believe their press reports.

Offline GTX

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Pure speculation on my part but this comes closely on the heels of Eurofighters having lots of trouble with 5th Gen stealth at the latest exercises.

Not necessarily a link (though it may help sway the decision).  Some senior LM reps told me earlier this year that the Germans were talking to them re the F-35

Offline Hood

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Would make perfect sense. The Germans have never been shy to consider or buy American aircraft at any point since 1955. The only difference now is that German-licence production is impossible for something like the F-35.
Airbus hasn't the track record to  attempt going alone and while a Dassault partnership is not unthinkable it seems with Neuron etc. that the French are looking at the opposite solution rather than developing a Rafale replacement (though I suspect they will investigate that before the 2030s). A BAE partnership might make sense if Britain wanted to replace its Typhoons but a dual-nation programme is still going to be too expensive and with Italy and Britain already buying F-35s and Spain  likely to fall in that camp too, there isn't enough critical mass within Europe for a repeat of Eurofighter or Tornado.

Offline mrmalaya

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I agree.

Those dates are so close together and eminently moveable, that there is still a high likelihood of Germany joining a European (and Britain still counts in this sense) project.

I can see why enquiries of LM are exciting, and perhaps that the F35 is more likely than the Airbus offering, but it is not the only show in town.

Put another way, what will Germany replace it's Typhoons with?

Offline kaiserd

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I agree.

Those dates are so close together and eminently moveable, that there is still a high likelihood of Germany joining a European (and Britain still counts in this sense) project.

I can see why enquiries of LM are exciting, and perhaps that the F35 is more likely than the Airbus offering, but it is not the only show in town.

Put another way, what will Germany replace it's Typhoons with?

I would agree that the a longer term pan-European project to eventually replace rather than supplement the existing Typhoons, Rafales, Gripens, etc would appear more likely than a nearer-term project in time to replace remaining German Tornadoes.
Germans would appear to have a choice between the F-35, moderately upgraded Typhoon or Rafale, or (very long-shot) the joint UK-France UCAV project if makes it to "metal" stage with the required time frame.
Small-ish F-35 buy combined with long term serious commitment to European successor to Typhoon may just be politically palitable enough for them.

Offline marauder2048

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There have been a couple of developments on the DCA front that may factor in:

Some of recent public statements on the B61-12 are attributing to it a longer lifespan that previously mentioned:
longer than the notional SLEP for the Tornado.

B61-12 integration on the F-35 will begin, definitively, with the Block 4.1 configuration next year.

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Quote
France and Germany to Develop New European Fighter Jet: Document

By REUTERSJULY 13, 2017, 8:33 A.M. E.D.T.

PARIS — France and Germany have agreed to develop a European fighter jet to replace their existing fleets, part of a raft of measures to tighten defense and security cooperation, according to a document issued after a Franco-German cabinet meeting in Paris on Thursday.

The two countries are to come up with a roadmap for developing the new aircraft by mid 2018, the document said.

Rest at the link
https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2017/07/13/world/europe/13reuters-france-germany-defence.html?smid=tw-share

Online NUSNA_Moebius

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I have a feeling this all won't end well.

I think the driving direction should be along the lines of the Air Dominance mantra a la the F-22 or PCA.  Older types like the Typhoon and Rafale can be bomb trucks with a secondary A2A mission like the Superbug compared to the F-35C.

Give it true stealth, true supercruise, long range, and deep internal magazines of Meteor and IRIS-T AAMs.  A2G integration can come later when the A2A aspects are in service and proven.

Might as well make it a readily two seat aircraft for the UCAV C&C mission which also makes it a ready platform for the Growler role.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 09:15:08 pm by Jemiba »

Offline FighterJock

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I have a feeling this all won't end well.

I think the driving direction should be along the lines of the Air Dominance mantra a la the F-22 or PCA.  Older types like the Typhoon and Rafale can be bomb trucks with a secondary A2A mission like the Superbug compared to the F-35C.

Give it true stealth, true supercruise, long range, and deep internal magazines of Meteor and IRIS-T AAMs.  Next network it for next generation UCAV fighter command and control, and then A2G integration can come later when the A2A aspects are in service and proven.

Might as well make it a readily two seat aircraft for the UCAV C&C mission which also makes it a ready platform for the Growler role.


Add to that list a top speed of Mach 2.

Offline kaiserd

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Quote
France and Germany to Develop New European Fighter Jet: Document

By REUTERSJULY 13, 2017, 8:33 A.M. E.D.T.

PARIS — France and Germany have agreed to develop a European fighter jet to replace their existing fleets, part of a raft of measures to tighten defense and security cooperation, according to a document issued after a Franco-German cabinet meeting in Paris on Thursday.

The two countries are to come up with a roadmap for developing the new aircraft by mid 2018, the document said.

Rest at the link
https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2017/07/13/world/europe/13reuters-france-germany-defence.html?smid=tw-share

Don't understand the reaction of some contributors to this news.
No technical details given so we have no idea what the proposed aircraft looks like; rather strange jumping in with comments on how it "should be this and this... instead..".
If this story is confirmed the impact on joint UK and French projects will be interesting.
In any case this project is a Rafale & Typhoon replacement, not a Tornado replacement so the latter replacement still likely to be an updated Typhoon or a F-35A (with this new project potentially giving the political cover for the F-35 to be possible).

Offline mrmalaya

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Well it is appearing elsewhere with suggestions that it is very much at a government to government level (rather than Dassault and Airbus).

France will use their UCAV to help on the A2G front, but without F35 will still need A2G in the spec.

What does Germany need, it didn't want Typhoon so why will it want a mach 2 supercruiser with big magazines?

It will come down to a balance between workshare and whether Germany actually has a specification.

Offline Deltafan

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Two questions at this point :

-Nothing about Spain : is the plane a part of the Germany-Spain Airbus bi-engine project or not. If not, does Germany have two planes in project (one with France and another with Spain) ?

-What about the French-British FCAS Program ? Can it join the French-German project ?

Time will tell...

Offline Triton

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The article also seems to be unaware of the agreement between Japan’s Acquisition, Technology, and Logistics Agency and the United Kingdom’s Ministry of Defense to explore options for co-developing an advanced fighter jet and is keen to deliver a snub to BAE Systems and the United Kingdom.

Offline Reaper

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Concerning Spain: When Airbus D&S is involved than I would think that also Spain is involved, because most of Spanish aircraft & defence industry is part of Airbus.

Offline amalahama

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Spain has not formally jumped in, but it will, they are also looking for replacing the Hornets, and there have been rumours in the Spanish press about a collaboration with Germany in the NGWS

Regards!

Offline mrmalaya

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So then, is it more likely that Britain and Japan will look to leverage their jointly developed technology to buy into a future US programme or develop their own? (not sure which thread that should be aimed at).

I am of the opinion that BAE/UK is quite happy having its fingers in various pies rather than being forced to eat a European buffet.

Offline Deltafan

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Maybe another topic must be open :

-the Germany-Spain Airbus project is to replace Tornado (Germany) and F-18 (Spain)

-the Germany-France project is to replace EF (Germany) and Rafale (France)


Offline Hood

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Politically it makes perfect sense, but when they get down to the details the problems will emerge. EFA started the same way, the politicians did the handshaking before the Germans had even begun to really think about that they wanted, the RAF and AdA knew what they wanted (different things). From various files I've looked at regarding several European projects of that 1970s-80s period, Bonn seems to have been problematic about the costs and what the Ministry of Defence and Luftwaffe actually wanted across a wide range of programmes.
Of course you can't compare two different eras but economics is no less a concern for Berlin today and the well-documented German defence problems do not signal smooth waters ahead.

The only two mainland suppliers are Dassault and Airbus, one has a proven track record and the other less so, there is no doubt the Austrian and German Eurofighter fraud cases are not going to make Airbus look any better, let alone factoring in the Atlas problems. Politically it might hard for Berlin to support Airbus on a totally new project if its proved they ripped the government off.

I don't see a direct threat to the BAE/Dassault programme, as that seems more likely to be an advanced UCAV. Paired with a Dassault/Airbus manned fighter that would certainly safeguard the Western European aviation defence sector in a way not even possible during the 1970s-80s fears of US industrial dominance. However, a warmed over F-35 concept or a reskinned Typhoon isn't probably going to be worthwhile. BAE is looking for the global market, they are indeed taking the multi-fingered pie consultancy approach. Probably good for the shareholders, less so if you want to actually build hardware, though it places them in a position to usurp Airbus if they failed to make their side of the partnership down, especially once the Brexit uncertainty is over and the positions of all the nations involved are clearer.

Offline Deltafan

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Is somebody here able to make a 3D drawing from this photo ?  :


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I suppose it's pointless to pay attention to this. It's comparable to the Typhoon's origins in the late 70's/earliest 80's.

Typhoon and Rafale will likely soldier on as first rate combat aircraft, and quite soon only combat aircraft, of both AdA and Luftwaffe for decades to come.


Offline hesham

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With all respect,this topic belongs to Aerospace section.

Offline mrmalaya

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moved
« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 11:57:05 am by mrmalaya »

Offline Dragon029

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #183 on: November 08, 2017, 05:05:26 am »
Looks like Germany will likely be shelving plans for a clean sheet Tornado replacement:

http://www.janes.com/article/75511/germany-declared-preference-for-f-35-to-replace-tornado

Quote
Germany declares preference for F-35 to replace Tornado

The German Air Force has a shortlist of existing platforms to replace its Panavia Tornados from 2025 to 2030, but the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) is the service’s “preferred choice", a senior service official said on 8 November.

Speaking under the Chatham House Rule, the official said that the F-35 already fulfils most of the requirements that the Luftwaffe requires to replace its Tornados in the 2025 to 2030 timeframe, and that it offers a number of other benefits besides.

“The Tornado replacement needs to be fifth-generation aircraft that can be detected as late as possible, if at all. It must be able to identify targets from a long way off and to target them as soon as possible.

“The German Ministry of Defence [MoD] is looking at several aircraft today, including the F-35 – it is commercially available already, has been ordered by many nations and is being introduced into service today, and has most of the capabilities required.”

Germany had previously engaged Airbus Defence and Space (DS) in defining the requirements for a future Tornado replacement under its Future Combat Air System (FCAS) programme. However, the timelines involved of an anticipated retirement of the Tornado in about 2030 has caused the Luftwaffe to look instead at an already developed platform. As the official explained, “The timeframe suggests we need to start introducing successor in about 2025 to cover the Tornado retirement in 2030 – we need a five-year transition phase. That is only seven years away, and so it is very unlikely that industry could develop and introduce an entirely new aircraft type that fulfils the functionalities that we require. History show that the Eurofighter took 25 years before the first aircraft was introduced.”

Offline Harrier

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #184 on: November 08, 2017, 05:25:03 am »
They are talking about a Future Combat Air System to replace Typhoon in 2045.

Video from Twitter https://twitter.com/AirbusDefence/status/928235180476784642


Pics attached. Reminds me of a Northrop/Dornier ND102 that wants to be a Su-57
« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 05:36:11 am by Harrier »
BAe P.1216 Supersonic ASTOVL Aircraft: www.harrier.org.uk/P1216.htm

100 Years  - Camel, Hurricane, Harrier: www.kingstonaviation.org

Offline Ogami musashi

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #185 on: November 08, 2017, 05:44:42 am »
And the accompanying video


Offline Hood

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #186 on: November 08, 2017, 06:41:06 am »
That's a fancy Airbus advert, it even has an "A330 AWACS" in it and it just about covers an Airbus-made analogue of every modern airpower concept including what looks like an A400M-based Arsenal Plane.

Interestingly the video seems to still have Typhoons in it as fighter escorts and the two-seat FCAS shown is very much performing a Tornado reconnaissance/strike role. This feels more like a Tornado replacement to me, I don't think its aimed at replacing the Typhoon, perhaps just the latter's air-to-ground roles at most. It doesn't feel like the sort of Rafale replacement that France might be keen on either.

The F-35 is the only off-the-shelf product that probably fulfills all what the Germans require to replace the Tornado. Even if Airbus was to create a two-seat stealthy aircraft, its unlikely to be that much more effective or capable than whatever upgraded F-35A might be in service by 2045 (although a twin-engined design might offer more payload and range). Its a brave move to keep the European aerospace industry in the business but they have a lot of ground to make up. By 2045 the F-35 might still be a more cost-effective Typhoon replacement for those nations with dual Typhoon/F-35 fleets and the kind of recon/strike role seen in the video might be best fulfilled entirely by a UCAV.

Offline litzj

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #187 on: November 08, 2017, 07:08:43 am »
nice vid and share!

it seems like delta ver. of pak fa

unfortunately, there is nothing new for next gen. airwarfare...

it is just collection of ‘recent trend’,


Offline Avimimus

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #188 on: November 08, 2017, 07:31:20 am »
I see elements of both the PAK-FA (including large moving LERXs) and F-16XL (cranked delta) in that...

It does look like it has a secondary air-defence role given its volume to engine ratio (Perhaps not a contradiction given that the Tornado ADF exists after-all).

Offline flateric

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #189 on: November 08, 2017, 07:42:47 am »
...
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline sferrin

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #190 on: November 08, 2017, 07:45:08 am »
What time period is that Northrop concept from?  ???
"DARPA Hard"  It ain't what it use to be.

Offline TomcatViP

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #191 on: November 08, 2017, 08:02:40 am »
Yes it's very 80ish but the text mention an hypersonic fighter what fits the timeline and Tech level (hyperstealth is new and does not need all the stealth background that a nation like the US has).

Offline Michel Van

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #192 on: November 08, 2017, 08:08:45 am »
What time period is that Northrop concept from?  ???

Around the 1980s

back to that Airbus Video:
It's nice, but it show a fatal flawed Problem for Airbus 6th generation Fighter 
Eskalation in cost !
You not only have pay R&D on that fighter, but also for additional support systems
like A330 AWACS, the unmanned reconnaissance & combat drones
and there Satellite communications systems and new generations reconnaissance satellites.

I think not that Germany parliament will pay zillions Euros for this complete systems.
They just want to replace Luftwaffe Eurofighter and Tornados  by new Aircraft,
Not complete battle systems like Airbus envision

Another Issue the Germany parliament show provisos towards Airbus
Since in Germany and Austria public prosecutors are investigating into Airbus
concerning: fraud, embezzlement, bribery and tax evasion.



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Offline TomcatViP

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #193 on: November 08, 2017, 08:11:43 am »
They are not killing Airbus, they are changing it.

Offline red admiral

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #194 on: November 08, 2017, 10:42:12 am »
Unsurprisingly, Airbus would like to be paid many many tens of billions of euros to build a future combat air system. Whereas Luftwaffe's response is to say they prefer F-35. Its difficult to see this fantasy going anywhere.

All these LO aircraft look pretty similar - limited choices when you're trying to please both aerodynamics and signatures disciplines.

Offline Ogami musashi

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #195 on: November 08, 2017, 11:40:32 am »
What time period is that Northrop concept from?  ???

From one of the predecessor of the JSF program, the Joint Attack Aircraft/Joint Attack Fighter. 1993.
The ALF in the title of flateric caption is a later version. the JAA/ALF would be absorbed by the JAST program.

Source: Tony chong, Northrop Flying wings and Radical things.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 11:43:31 am by Ogami musashi »

Offline marauder2048

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #196 on: November 08, 2017, 01:39:02 pm »
Looks like Germany will likely be shelving plans for a clean sheet Tornado replacement:

http://www.janes.com/article/75511/germany-declared-preference-for-f-35-to-replace-tornado

Quote
Germany declares preference for F-35 to replace Tornado


“The Tornado replacement needs to be fifth-generation aircraft that can be detected as late as possible, if at all. It must be able to identify targets from a long way off and to target them as soon as possible.
As the official explained, “The timeframe suggests we need to start introducing successor in about 2025 to cover the Tornado retirement in 2030 – we need a five-year transition phase.
That is only seven years away, and so it is very unlikely that industry could develop and introduce an entirely new aircraft type that fulfils the functionalities that we require.
History show that the Eurofighter took 25 years before the first aircraft was introduced.”


I'm sure it's driven in part by dual-capable considerations; the US Navy, per its idiom, really missed the boat on a dual-capable Super Bug.

I'm also surprised to see the head of the German Air Force using the term "fifth-generation" since we've been told it's merely an LM marketing term.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 02:10:18 pm by marauder2048 »

Offline Triton

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #197 on: November 08, 2017, 03:29:57 pm »
Is this true or BS?

"Germany Says the F-35 is the 'Preferred Choice' to Replace its Tornados"
by Joseph Trevithick

November 8, 2017

Source:
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/15896/germany-says-the-f-35-is-the-preferred-choice-to-replace-its-tornados

Quote
And the Luftwaffe needs a replacement for the Cold War-era Tornados, an Anglo-German-Italian joint development, as soon as possible.

In 2014, Der Spiegal, citing a leaked government report, said only 66 of the aircraft were airworthy at all and that less than 40 were combat ready. A year after that, Deutsche Welle obtained another review that showed the fleet’s readiness has slipped even further, with only 29 available for actual operations.

The state of the jets has been on full display since the Luftwaffe started flying the aircraft on reconnaissance missions against ISIS terrorists in Iraq in January 2016. Germany initially deployed six of the planes to Turkey’s Incirlik Air Base, but a political spat forced it to move the contingent to Jordan in October 2017. By that point, the total number of Tornados on hand had dwindled to just four.


Previous reports have suggested that the Germans were looking to retire the old swing-wing jets no later than 2035, but the official stressed to Jane’s that this was the estimate for when the last aircraft would have to head to the bone yard and that the process would have to start much earlier.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 04:09:22 pm by Triton »

Offline Dragon029

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #198 on: November 08, 2017, 03:32:47 pm »
Reuters apparently didn't get the memo about Chatham House rules; according to them the remarks about the F-35 being the preferred solution are from LtGen Muellner (chief of the Luftwaffe): https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-fighter/tornado-replacement-must-be-fifth-generation-german-air-force-chief-idUSKBN1D81WR

Offline marauder2048

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #199 on: November 08, 2017, 04:00:16 pm »
Neither did AIN but they do give more color on the mission set outlined by Muellner

Quote
The mission set would include offensive counter-air; air interdiction; close air support; suppression of enemy air defenses; tactical reconnaissance;
electronic combat; and nuclear deterrence, Muellner added. AIN believes that the last mission is a reference to the U.S. B61 nuclear free-fall bomb,
which can be carried by the Tornado under NATO nuclear-release deterrence doctrine. An updated version of the B61 is due to be integrated on the F-35.


https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2017-11-08/germany-requests-pricing-and-availability-f-35

Offline LowObservable

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #200 on: November 08, 2017, 04:03:57 pm »
The General may have agreed to be quoted in a sidebar.

As for the F-35 - it's credible as a Tornado replacement, and of course Germany would need US permission and cooperation to buy or use anything else.

Offline marauder2048

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #201 on: November 08, 2017, 04:38:16 pm »
The General may have agreed to be quoted in a sidebar.

As for the F-35 - it's credible as a Tornado replacement, and of course Germany would need US permission and cooperation to buy or use anything else.

Oh right...I had forgotten that it was the US and not Germany's Eurofighter partners who had deleted the dual-capable requirement for the EF-2000.

Offline Michel Van

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #202 on: November 08, 2017, 08:28:20 pm »
TOTAL BS
That Article not mention one single german source

if there someone in Bundeswehr was study the use of F-35
it would have debates in German Parlament and investigating committee about it
The head of Bundeswehr Ursula von der Leyen would already talk about it in TV
and entire german news media like "Der Spiegel" would had it on front-page news

Next to that has Luftwaffe still some issue and opposition against Lockheed since F-104G "Widowmaker"


Is this true or BS?

"Germany Says the F-35 is the 'Preferred Choice' to Replace its Tornados"
by Joseph Trevithick

November 8, 2017

Source:
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/15896/germany-says-the-f-35-is-the-preferred-choice-to-replace-its-tornados


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Offline Dragon029

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #203 on: November 08, 2017, 11:10:44 pm »
TOTAL BS
That Article not mention one single german source
The Reuters article cites LtGen Muellner as the source and multiple news outlets are reporting on the same conference echo the statement.

Edit: Also, the German MOD has been talking about the F-35 as a possibility all year since they sent a request for a classified briefing on the jet. Remember too that this is not a formal / final declaration of the F-35's selection, it's just the chief of the Luftwaffe saying that a clean-sheet looks implausible given the 7 year timeframe and that they prefer the F-35 over other existing aircraft, which makes perfect sense.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 11:13:15 pm by Dragon029 »

Offline Blitzo

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #204 on: November 09, 2017, 01:53:44 am »
...

Looks like a stubbier J-20 but with LEVCONs in place of canards.
It's fuselage/body seems to be more like the twin engine arrangement of F22, J20, rather than su57 or yf23

The LERX from the wing to the air intake is particularly distinctive.


In any case, the video shows a reasonable concept that should be well within the technological capacity of Airbus and Europe. Question of course is timespan,and funding, and opportunity/cost of alternatives namely F35.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 01:58:30 am by Blitzo »

Offline Foo Fighter

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #205 on: November 09, 2017, 03:15:49 am »
I thought the Typhoon was the Tornado replacement.

Offline Michel Van

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #206 on: November 09, 2017, 04:26:23 am »
I thought the Typhoon was the Tornado replacement.

no, the Typhoon is replacement for F-4 Phantom of the Luftwaffe.

Edit: Also, the German MOD has been talking about the F-35 as a possibility all year since they sent a request for a classified briefing on the jet. Remember too that this is not a formal / final declaration of the F-35's selection, it's just the chief of the Luftwaffe saying that a clean-sheet looks implausible given the 7 year timeframe and that they prefer the F-35 over other existing aircraft, which makes perfect sense.

That's normal, if there new weapons on market, The Federal Ministry of Defence get info and do ask for classified briefing on it.
follow by internal committee of inquiry and the dossier end up at the Federal Minister of Defence if he/she say "yes we buy it"
then comes a formal request to Federal government and Parlament for buying them.
follow by Parlament committee of inquiry  if this is necessary...

so far i recalled right, the Luftwaffe made valuation of the F-35 project in begin of 2000, under Minister Rudolf Scharping (SPD socialist)
but since that program faced delays and problems, the Luftwaffe put paper in the archives. 
we had in mean time five Federal Ministry of Defence, now under Ursula von der Leyen (CDU Christian Democratic)
each if them had there problems and Issues and F-35 was not one of them.
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Offline LowObservable

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #207 on: November 09, 2017, 05:08:54 am »
Oh right...I had forgotten that it was the US and not Germany's Eurofighter partners who had deleted the dual-capable requirement for the EF-2000.

When was such a requirement established and when was it deleted? EF was very much a dedicated A2A platform in the Cold War and was expected to serve alongside the Tornado for much of its life.

Offline TomcatViP

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #208 on: November 09, 2017, 06:08:47 am »
...

Looks like a stubbier J-20 but with LEVCONs in place of canards.
It's fuselage/body seems to be more like the twin engine arrangement of F22, J20, rather than su57 or yf23

The LERX from the wing to the air intake is particularly distinctive.


In any case, the video shows a reasonable concept that should be well within the technological capacity of Airbus and Europe. Question of course is timespan,and funding, and opportunity/cost of alternatives namely F35.
Absolutely. A very modest improvement that won't match the F35 capabilities.  The displayed project comes as a surprise given the wording used in the offer. I am on the opinion that this is a discarded configuration. Noticeably, there is a rather large wingspan with the double delta config. It's surprising unless you put credits on the carrier compatible requirements which will stand as an oddity in a bi-national Franco/German project...   

If the EU industry can't make better than the J20 today, then a full decade of heavy R&D might well be better than spend money on something like this.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 06:11:11 am by TomcatViP »

Offline marauder2048

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #209 on: November 09, 2017, 10:22:45 am »
Oh right...I had forgotten that it was the US and not Germany's Eurofighter partners who had deleted the dual-capable requirement for the EF-2000.

EF was very much a dedicated A2A platform in the Cold War

Which is why the dual-capable role was only a post-Cold war consideration after
it was shown in GWI that the Tornado could not penetrate without a major SEAD campaign.

The RAF abdicated its nuclear role completely including dual-capable aircraft and
Italy no longer devotes any aircraft to the dual-capable role. That leaves Germany
holding the short-straw in regards to Eurofighter dual-capability in later tranches.

Nevertheless, it's been looked at and RUSI even had a semi-official estimate on cost.
But sustaining that capability in a German-only configuration over the next 25 years
would be prohibitive.

Offline Trident

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #210 on: November 09, 2017, 11:48:28 am »
...

Looks like a stubbier J-20 but with LEVCONs in place of canards.
It's fuselage/body seems to be more like the twin engine arrangement of F22, J20, rather than su57 or yf23

The LERX from the wing to the air intake is particularly distinctive.

Nah, the LERX on the J-20 is tiny compared to both this and the Su-57, it also lacks the leading edge kink found on both of the others. The Airbus concept, like the Su-57, has caret intakes rather than DSI, too. Add the low aspect ratio tail fins...

You're right about the closely spaced engines, but that notwithstanding, a "Su-57XL" comes closest - and it is worth mentioning that the earlier images of this concept (also in this thread) showed a wider separation.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 12:14:34 pm by Trident »

Offline Trident

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #211 on: November 09, 2017, 12:02:23 pm »
As for the F-35 - it's credible as a Tornado replacement, and of course Germany would need US permission and cooperation to buy or use anything else.

Concur - as a strike-oriented Tornado replacement, it is hard to see an (off the shelf) solution which would better meet the requirements than the F-35, unless you go unmanned. That is not realistic, however - schedule and budget should strongly discourage a clean-sheet effort, if the Typhoon/Rafale replacement for the fighter role is not to be jeopardized.

What alternatives are there? A Typhoon development would be riskier, due to additional development work, plus lack true stealth. Rafale likewise is not a real LO airframe and would require US permission for nuclear integration - I take it that's the issue your comment was aimed at? Perhaps also an advanced Strike Eagle development like the F-15SG/SA (no stealth, high operating cost) or the Super Hornet (not truly stealthy either).
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 12:21:29 pm by Trident »

Offline LowObservable

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #212 on: November 09, 2017, 05:54:25 pm »
Which is why the dual-capable role was only a post-Cold war consideration after it was shown in GWI that the Tornado could not penetrate without a major SEAD campaign.

So when was it considered or planned, so that it could be deleted? Specifics please. I don't think it was a remote consideration post-GW1 because it was difficult enough to keep the Germans in, let alone foist a nuke mission on the jet and further incense the opposition. UK of course was different, because it would have been WE177.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 05:57:16 pm by LowObservable »

Offline marauder2048

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #213 on: November 09, 2017, 06:21:32 pm »
Sure in exchange for specifics on:

Quote
Germany would need US permission and cooperation to buy or use anything else.


Offline LowObservable

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #214 on: November 09, 2017, 07:19:22 pm »
Fairly obvious. B61-12 integration. Now stop timewasting and back up your initial assertion.

Offline marauder2048

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #215 on: November 09, 2017, 07:21:37 pm »
Fairly obvious. B61-12 integration. Now stop timewasting and back up your initial assertion.

Not obvious at all since the analog path is still available.

C'mon, LO. We went through this song & dance with "fifth generation" and the RAND study
where I gave you my source but your Google Kung Fu done failed.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 08:24:48 pm by marauder2048 »

Offline Blitzo

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #216 on: November 10, 2017, 01:59:33 am »
...

Looks like a stubbier J-20 but with LEVCONs in place of canards.
It's fuselage/body seems to be more like the twin engine arrangement of F22, J20, rather than su57 or yf23

The LERX from the wing to the air intake is particularly distinctive.

Nah, the LERX on the J-20 is tiny compared to both this and the Su-57, it also lacks the leading edge kink found on both of the others. The Airbus concept, like the Su-57, has caret intakes rather than DSI, too. Add the low aspect ratio tail fins...

You're right about the closely spaced engines, but that notwithstanding, a "Su-57XL" comes closest - and it is worth mentioning that the earlier images of this concept (also in this thread) showed a wider separation.

Well that is why I said it looks like a stubbier J-20. Hard to judge without knowing the dimensions of the proposal. If we lop a meter and a half from J-20 length near the air intake/canard area and replace it with LEVCONs imo you'd get pretty close.

Doesn't look much like Su57 to me given its fuselage (wing body) configuration which is more akin to F22/J20 than Su57, particularly from the ventral aspect. The only major commonality with Su57 is LEVCONs imo.



In any case it seems like a sensible configuration, overall. It looks a little like what I imagine an actual strike/interceptor J20 would look like, but smaller.

Offline Hood

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #217 on: November 10, 2017, 02:15:51 am »
It's an promo video. I wouldn't read into it anything more than what a marketing team has cooked up.


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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #218 on: November 10, 2017, 04:05:20 am »
back to that Airbus Video:
It's nice, but it show a fatal flawed Problem for Airbus 6th generation Fighter 
Eskalation in cost !
You not only have pay R&D on that fighter, but also for additional support systems
like A330 AWACS, the unmanned reconnaissance & combat drones
and there Satellite communications systems and new generations reconnaissance satellites.

The networked systems have to be bought anyway, the E-3 fleet won't last forever and all the other elements are likely procurement necessities. And Airbus is the only option for keeping that spending within Germany/the EU.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2017, 05:04:19 am by DWG »

Offline LowObservable

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #219 on: November 10, 2017, 04:17:45 am »
Fairly obvious. B61-12 integration. Now stop timewasting and back up your initial assertion.

Not obvious at all since the analog path is still available.

C'mon, LO. We went through this song & dance with "fifth generation" and the RAND study
where I gave you my source but your Google Kung Fu done failed.

I see. You have nothing on your original claim. BTW I do see your posts in other places.

Offline Trident

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #220 on: November 10, 2017, 09:57:05 am »
...

Looks like a stubbier J-20 but with LEVCONs in place of canards.
It's fuselage/body seems to be more like the twin engine arrangement of F22, J20, rather than su57 or yf23

The LERX from the wing to the air intake is particularly distinctive.

Nah, the LERX on the J-20 is tiny compared to both this and the Su-57, it also lacks the leading edge kink found on both of the others. The Airbus concept, like the Su-57, has caret intakes rather than DSI, too. Add the low aspect ratio tail fins...

You're right about the closely spaced engines, but that notwithstanding, a "Su-57XL" comes closest - and it is worth mentioning that the earlier images of this concept (also in this thread) showed a wider separation.

Well that is why I said it looks like a stubbier J-20. Hard to judge without knowing the dimensions of the proposal. If we lop a meter and a half from J-20 length near the air intake/canard area and replace it with LEVCONs imo you'd get pretty close.

Doesn't look much like Su57 to me given its fuselage (wing body) configuration which is more akin to F22/J20 than Su57, particularly from the ventral aspect. The only major commonality with Su57 is LEVCONs imo.



In any case it seems like a sensible configuration, overall. It looks a little like what I imagine an actual strike/interceptor J20 would look like, but smaller.

To be clear, I'm not arguing that the similarity is super close - it is unequivocally a wholly original design. However, it shares more traits with the Su-57 than with perhaps any other existing  stealth fighter (again, not that the match is a particularly good one). Certainly more than with the J-20, with which it really has only two features in common (engine arrangement and canopy), both of which - as you have noted - are not unique to the J-20.

So, not particularly close to either, but closer to the Su-57 than to the J-20.

Offline Reaper

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #221 on: November 10, 2017, 12:00:47 pm »
It's an promo video. I wouldn't read into it anything more than what a marketing team has cooked up.

Exactly! Continue working on the real plane internally, put out a nice looking rendering for marketing.

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #222 on: November 10, 2017, 01:08:11 pm »
To be clear, I'm not arguing that the similarity is super close - it is unequivocally a wholly original design. However, it shares more traits with the Su-57 than with perhaps any other existing  stealth fighter (again, not that the match is a particularly good one). Certainly more than with the J-20, with which it really has only two features in common (engine arrangement and canopy), both of which - as you have noted - are not unique to the J-20.

So, not particularly close to either, but closer to the Su-57 than to the J-20.

I agree that this concept is definitely not a copy or super close to any particular design.

However, I would argue that the aircraft it is closest to is the J-20 rather than Su-57. Specifically, while the Airbus concept does have in common with Su-57 is the LEVCONs, but the rest of the aircraft -- in particular the fuselage -- is much closer with the F-22/J-20 configuration than the Su-57 which is particularly obvious when looking at the ventral side of the Airbus concept.

Considering how much of an aircraft's external appearance is dictated by its fuselage arrangement with its wings -- the main fuselage body dictates the positioning of important external cues like weapon bays, air intakes -- and considering the rest of the Airbus concept's LERX arrangement and things like the nose etc, I think it does look much more like J-20 than Su-57.

In fact I would say Airbus' concept is marginally more similar to F-22 than Su-57 in terms of overall configuration.

edit: I'm sort of hoping Airbus will actually be able to continue with this vision of theirs, it would be interesting to see what the real thing will end up looking like.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2017, 01:20:14 pm by Blitzo »

Offline Trident

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #223 on: November 10, 2017, 05:28:40 pm »
I do not wish to prolong this fun but ultimately fruitless debate about similarity too much, but I'll just explain my reasoning in detail this once.

However, I would argue that the aircraft it is closest to is the J-20 rather than Su-57.

Hardly - the similarity practically ends in fuselage and canopy configuration, both of which resemble the F-22 just as much as the J-20 (which begs the question of why you consider the latter closer than the former?). And a variation of the layout with a wider engine separation more reminiscent of the Su-57 has been shown.

Specifically, while the Airbus concept does have in common with Su-57 is the LEVCONs, but the rest of the aircraft -- in particular the fuselage -- is much closer with the F-22/J-20 configuration than the Su-57 which is particularly obvious when looking at the ventral side of the Airbus concept.

Vertical tail configuration is very similar to the Su-57, with a markedly lower aspect ratio than the J-20 fins, it lacks ventral strakes and has caret intakes (in both the latter respects it is more like the F-22 and Su-57 than the J-20 which has DSIs). Also, LERX resemblance to the Su-57 goes far beyond the mere presence of LEVCONs, i.e. the compound LE sweep (mildly swept inboard section, sharp sweep angle outboard) and the intakes which (exactly like the Su-57) are set much further back from the LE than on the otherwise similar F-22.

Considering how much of an aircraft's external appearance is dictated by its fuselage arrangement with its wings -- the main fuselage body dictates the positioning of important external cues like weapon bays, air intakes -- and considering the rest of the Airbus concept's LERX arrangement and things like the nose etc, I think it does look much more like J-20 than Su-57.

Sure, the fuselage configuration dominates visual perception of its shape (appearance and looks, as you put it), but the Su-57-like features go beyond mere aesthetics. At high AoA, the kinked LERX would probably create vortex patterns which are more like those on the Su-57 than the J-20's pure sweep as well as shielding the intakes (with potentially dramatic impact on their performance), also as on the Su-57. I'll grant you that the fuselage will likely dictate a F-22/J-20-style weapons bay arrangement, but otherwise I'd submit the Airbus design is functionally (if not aesthetically) quite a bit more similar to the Su-57.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2017, 05:33:47 pm by Trident »

Offline Blitzo

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #224 on: November 10, 2017, 06:08:44 pm »
I do not wish to prolong this fun but ultimately fruitless debate about similarity too much, but I'll just explain my reasoning in detail this once.

Hardly - the similarity practically ends in fuselage and canopy configuration, both of which resemble the F-22 just as much as the J-20 (which begs the question of why you consider the latter closer than the former?). And a variation of the layout with a wider engine separation more reminiscent of the Su-57 has been shown.

I appreciate your explanation.

I'm not sure which variation with a wider engine separation you speak of, but I'm only talking about the concept shown in the video and the latest poster, whose underside is a flat block like J-20 and F-22 without separated engines and without a pancake.



Quote
Vertical tail configuration is very similar to the Su-57, with a markedly lower aspect ratio than the J-20 fins, it lacks ventral strakes and has caret intakes (in both the latter respects it is more like the F-22 and Su-57 than the J-20 which has DSIs). Also, LERX resemblance to the Su-57 goes far beyond the mere presence of LEVCONs, i.e. the compound LE sweep (mildly swept inboard section, sharp sweep angle outboard) and the intakes which (exactly like the Su-57) are set much further back from the LE than on the otherwise similar F-22.

A fair argument, although I would say the LERX and main wing configuration is not too dissimilar to J-20's main wing and LERX as well, the main difference being the presence of canards of course.



Quote
Sure, the fuselage configuration dominates visual perception of its shape (appearance and looks, as you put it), but the Su-57-like features go beyond mere aesthetics. At high AoA, the kinked LERX would probably create vortex patterns which are more like those on the Su-57 than the J-20's pure sweep as well as shielding the intakes (with potentially dramatic impact on their performance), also as on the Su-57. I'll grant you that the fuselage will likely dictate a F-22/J-20-style weapons bay arrangement, but otherwise I'd submit the Airbus design is functionally (if not aesthetically) quite a bit more similar to the Su-57.

In terms of control surfaces/wings I think one could argue both J-20 and Su-57 to be equally "similar" to the airbus concept:
-The Airbus concept's wing/lerx/levcon configuration and what looks like all moving V tails, is of course very similar to Su-57's wing/LEVCON and V tails, however the Airbus concept distinctively lacks the Su-57's horizontal tails. So close, but still distinctively different.
-The Airbus concept's wing/lerx configuration also looks quite similar to J-20's main wing+lerx, and J-20 also has all moving V tails but with different geometry/sweep. J-20 also has canards and ventral fins of course, which the Airbus concept does not, so I think the J-20 is not as similar to the airbus concept in terms of control surfaces as Su-57 is, but still not that far.

In terms of fuselage, which imo would dictate a big part of how much one should judge two aircraft's "similarity" (especially for stealth fighters):
-the airbus concept in the video does show an F-22/J-20 esque fuselage like a single "block," rather than having two separate engine/intake nacelles with a space/recess in between them. In that regard, IMO the the fuselage of the airbus concept is very similar to that of F-22 and J-20
-the airbus concept's air intake lip is not that similar to either J-20 or Su-57's air intake lip imo

The rest of the aircraft's nose, canopy, sensor arrangement, which I consider to be not unimportant visually, also looks very much like that of J-20 (or F-35), with a topside nose EO aperture aft to the radome (similar to J-20 and F-35), as well as a chin mounted faceted EO IRST of some kind (also very similar to J-20, F-35). In this aspect, the Su-57 is quite different.


So overall, I can see why Su-57 is considered quite similar to this aircraft, in terms of control surfaces/main wing, but overall, combining the fuselage, control surfaces/main wing, and nose geometry, I think the closest foreign "cousin" is the J-20.


But this is merely a fun thought exercise of course, and we can feel free to agree to disagree.

Offline Trident

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #225 on: November 10, 2017, 06:25:33 pm »
I'm not sure which variation with a wider engine separation you speak of, but I'm only talking about the concept shown in the video and the latest poster, whose underside is a flat block like J-20 and F-22 without separated engines and without a pancake.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,26320.msg302880.html#msg302880

The top one may well include a pancake (though more like the YF-23), while the bottom one probably lacks a tunnel but even has a tail sting (think Japanese 24DMU concept, itself a design which incorporates a number of YF-23 and Su-57 cues).

So overall, I can see why Su-57 is considered quite similar to this aircraft, in terms of control surfaces/main wing, but overall, combining the fuselage, control surfaces/main wing, and nose geometry, I think the closest foreign "cousin" is the J-20.

I dunno - it seems to me that (in very simplified terms) to turn the Su-57 into something very like the bottom Airbus concept, you'd "merely" have to fill the inlet tunnel  and cut off the horizontal stabilizers.

With the J-20 you'd have to cut off the Canards and move the engines apart (so far so good - similar scope of changes as with the Su-57), but then massively increase LERX size, add LEVCONs and completely alter their planform, move the intakes aft and switch to a different type, get rid of the ventral strakes and reshape the fins,...

The list is just a whole lot longer, without playing down the scale of the changes to the Su-57, of course (as mentioned in the beginning, the Airbus concept is a completely original design in its own right).
« Last Edit: November 10, 2017, 06:40:15 pm by Trident »

Offline Blitzo

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #226 on: November 10, 2017, 06:35:29 pm »
I'm not sure which variation with a wider engine separation you speak of, but I'm only talking about the concept shown in the video and the latest poster, whose underside is a flat block like J-20 and F-22 without separated engines and without a pancake.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,26320.msg302880.html#msg302880

The top one may well include a pancake (though more like the YF-23), while the bottom one probably lacks a tunnel but even has a tail sting (think Japanese 24DMU concept, itself a design which incorporates a number of YF-23 and Su-57 cues).

Ah I see.

Yes, the first one could possibly be sort of like YF-23 or 24DMU.

Though in this case, I was only talking about the newest iteration of their concept, which looks to have evolved from those previous proposals.

Offline Trident

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #227 on: November 11, 2017, 06:59:00 am »
Well, engine arrangement apart (pun intended), the bottom concept on that image and the one from the recent video are virtually identical.

Offline Blitzo

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #228 on: November 11, 2017, 03:13:21 pm »
Well, engine arrangement apart (pun intended), the bottom concept on that image and the one from the recent video are virtually identical.

hehe well done.

IMO engine arrangement is a pretty big difference for looking at how fighters, especially stealth fighters "look," given it basically dictates what the fuselage/body/wing arrangement will be like.
I think the engine nozzles on the recent concept from the video also shows round nozzles rather than flat, F119 style nozzles

Offline GTX

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #229 on: December 02, 2017, 09:46:09 am »
As shown at 2017 Berlin Security Conference :)

Offline LowObservable

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #230 on: December 02, 2017, 12:49:19 pm »
They really pulled out the First XI graphics team on that one.

Offline Reaper

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #231 on: December 02, 2017, 12:53:25 pm »
He, dont make fun of them! They got at least the right cross! ;)

Offline LowObservable

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #232 on: December 03, 2017, 05:19:08 am »
I'm actually surprised that they didn't look up "German warplane insignia" on Google and make a really embarrassing mistake - although there's one forum member here who would love it!

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #233 on: January 28, 2018, 01:45:50 am »
I briefly reviewed info. from you guys in https://jaesan-aero.blogspot.kr/

TEXT are here

1. Lack of HT and TVC (not certain)

- There is no emphasis on Air-Air Combat or Manuever; OML of the concept seem to be optimized for high speed cruise and LO performance, like YF-23 did (wing-planform is more similar to F-16XL).

- Control surface on the LE like Pak-Fa probably provides least maneuverability for this fighter; this wing-planform and layout of control surface is not for sustained fight, but for instantaneous fight.


2. No emphasis on weapon delivery or 'killer role' of the fighter

- It seems to have at least more than one internal weapon bay (from vids, only one central bay and no-side bays). But vids did not show anything related to it. Vids gave strength on Network capability; providing information, penetration of enemy air-area. Finalizing information and delivering weapon for destruction are probably done by unmanned or cruise missiles.

- not like US' way, Airbus want this fighter to do lead 'Hunt', not 'Kill'. This aircraft seems to have two crew members; it means secondary crew focuses on gathering information and commanding other friendly asset to lead missions.

- If this assumption is true, internal weapon bay or bays are not big enough to contain 'expensive weapons', like NSM, Taurus, Storm-shadow, JASSM. Maybe, Airbus thought minimizing weapon bay could save cost of this fighter. Weapon bay of the fighter probably load relatively light weapons, Meteor, self-defense IRIS-T, or Advanced or replacement version of AGM-88s.


3. Very Large Wing Planform for Long-Time Endurance?

- While it has larger wing planform than similar-size-jet, it only emphasize on 'ISR', 'Leading Friendly Asset'. There is nothing about 'Super-cruise', 'Delivering Silver Bullet on enemy's heart', 'Dramatic Air Combat'.

- Fancy high speed, weapon bay, high-thrust engine, and TVC things cost money and weight of the platform. Maybe if saved weight is changed to fuel and combined with fuel-economy engine, it could achieve extremely long range and endurance than its counter-part.

- From estimation of position of components (weapon bay, LD), extremely large LERX, and nose-cone shape, it probably highly unstable and could achieve low trim drag and high L/D for its mission.


Conclusion of Estimation

- 5 or 6th gen. fighter cannot be cheap, but this concept decisively give up few fancy things escalating cost, and try to save cost and number of required fighters. Few roles, delivering weapon, air-combat, should be done by other conventional jets.

- In given cost, it focuses on 'Endurance', 'ISR', 'Commanding' role in danger area.

- If this concept is right, Airbus targets a small number of production in reasonable cost.

Offline marauder2048

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #234 on: January 30, 2018, 11:20:38 pm »
Its name is a killing word.

Offline Michel Van

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #235 on: January 31, 2018, 12:46:09 am »
on the Tweet source
Christian Thiels is correspondent for "Tagesschau", Germany's main daily television news, provided by ARD
I love Strange Technology

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #237 on: August 25, 2018, 05:38:47 pm »
So there is a plenum around the nozzle  that seems also to be 3d TVC. No apparent third stream but the advanced multidisciplinary modelling technique suggests something advanced:

these include multi-disciplinary methods and simulations in the design of engine concepts
« Last Edit: August 25, 2018, 05:41:52 pm by TomcatViP »

Offline muttbutt

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #238 on: September 25, 2018, 10:04:36 pm »
Thought I'd put this in here, it seems to be connected to this.

Quote
Airbus Demonstrates Manned-Unmanned Teaming for Future Air Combat Systems
September 25, 2018 DP Press Releases 0 Comments Airbus, Future Combat Air System (FCAS) Europe, Manned Unmanned Teaming (MUMT), Unmanned Air Vehicle (UAV)

Airbus has successfully performed manned-unmanned teaming (MUT) test flight campaigns demonstrating the ability to control unmanned systems from a manned aircraft.

These campaigns included demonstrations with five Airbus-built Do-DT25 target drones controlled from a mission group commander who was airborne in a manned command and control (C2) aircraft.

Flown in a test zone of Germany’s Baltic Sea area, the MUT trial flights served multiple purposes, including validating such elements as connectivity, human-machine interface, and the concept of teaming intelligence through mission group management. For the aspect of teaming intelligence, multiple capabilities and enabling technologies are required at sufficient maturity levels – from teaming/swarming algorithms and new sensors to mission management systems for command and control assistance by the manned aircraft’s crew.

A key element contributing to these successful flights was the advanced flight control and flight management system developed by Airbus for unmanned air vehicles – which combines fully automatic guidance, navigation and control with intelligent swarming capabilities.

Manned-unmanned-teaming is expected to increase the mission efficiency of future airborne systems in many ways. Equipped with sensors, the swarm of unmanned systems can provide situational awareness to a mission group commander located a safe distance away aboard the manned aircraft.

The Airbus MUT demonstrations brought together several of the company’s programme and product lines, with the main development and test phases conducted during a short timeframe and at low cost – supported by an agile, rapid prototyping environment and a risk-mitigation approach.

Expertise gained during the manned-unmanned teaming test flight campaigns will be applied by Airbus to develop Europe’s Future Combat Air System (FCAS).

https://defpost.com/airbus-demonstrates-manned-unmanned-teaming-for-future-air-combat-systems/

Offline flateric

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Offline Deltafan

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #240 on: September 26, 2018, 04:41:14 pm »
https://www.mtu.de/nefengine/
AFAIK : the FCAS is to replace EF and Rafale. For the replacement of the Tornado there are today 4 "contenders" : "modified" EF, F-35, F-18 and F-15.

This previous project (last year AFAIR) of Airbus (the plane shown in the link) is still available for the replacement of the Tornado ? 
« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 04:44:21 pm by Deltafan »

Offline flateric

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #241 on: September 26, 2018, 11:15:49 pm »
NEFE page shows something generic that resembles Airbus DS 'New Fighter' Concept from 2017.
Now Franco-German FCAS/SCAF study is ledaded by Dassault as a leader, there won't be domestic German FCAS.
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline Deltafan

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #242 on: September 27, 2018, 06:44:07 pm »
NEFE page shows something generic that resembles Airbus DS 'New Fighter' Concept from 2017.
Now Franco-German FCAS/SCAF study is ledaded by Dassault as a leader, there won't be domestic German FCAS.
OK, thanks.

Offline VTOLicious

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #243 on: October 04, 2018, 04:02:12 am »
Airbus in “Unprecedented” Drone Swarm Demonstration

https://www.cbronline.com/news/airbus-drone-trial

Offline RavenOne

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Re: Germany plans to develop new fighter jet to replace Tornado: Airbus NGWS
« Reply #244 on: November 12, 2018, 09:54:21 am »
As shown at 2017 Berlin Security Conference :)

When I attended ILA 2018 at the end of April, there were a pair of Luke AFB's F-35A on static and F-35A mock up (aimed at Luftwaffe) Those of us who sat in it got the hat (cap) lol tp prove it....



rest of my photos below

















Was chatting to a Belgian contact at the show, subsequently he was laying bets that the F-35 has good chance with both his country and Germany. This simply attributed to both countries NATO nuclear capability and commitment. The Typhoon has not been cleared to carry a 'bucket of sunshine' cue last week, Belgium selected the F-35 over the Typhoon.
Now could Germany follow suit by example? What are the chances the F-35A can be in the apple of the Bundestag's eyes?

Slightly digressing, funding has been made available by the Federal Government in Berlin, for urgent procurement of the CH-53G/GS/GA fleet with either the CH-53K or CH-47F. If L-M Sikorsky wins with the King Stallion, then could it open the doors for F-35 procurment?

Cheers