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Author Topic: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.  (Read 74497 times)

Offline Graugrun

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Thanks to both TomS and Kaiserbill for the additional info - Somchem became a division of Denel BTW, so it's their artillery shells pictured in the South African/American proposed co-operation slides. The proposal was with regards various South African artillery ammunition (charges and rounds) and the Denel LEO 105mm gun mounted on the LAV III as a SPH.

The lethality of our 105mm rounds exceeds that of American and European 155mm rounds by a very large margin, I believe that the U.K. and the U.S.A have both adopted on the 105mm rounds and Bi-modular propellant charges (someone with better knowledge on this can correct me or add some more info). There is much more to this artillery story, however I believe it belongs in the South African Army section.

Back to the L-RAAM, below are two scans from an old CSIR (Council for Scientific and Industrial Research) brochure, advertising their high speed wind tunnel capabilities, note the two pics showing and testing the ramjet inlets.

An earlier version of this missile was called the LRTM (Long Range Tactical Missile), I will also scan and post some more on this soon.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2014, 07:53:13 am by Graugrun »

Offline kaiserbill

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Thanks Graugrun.
 
That second pic in your first attachment...what missile is that? A-Darter?
 
Was the LRTM then the land attack missile version I mentioned earlier, akin to the French ASMP?
 
Look forward to your next post...

Offline Graugrun

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Kaiserbill, the 2nd pic down in the first attachment is indeed A-Darter.

I always thought that LRTM was just an earlier iteration of L-RAAM, however perhaps your are correct in that they are two different missiles designed for two different purposes. If this is true, then as some pure, uneducated speculation on my part, is that perhaps the reversed/inverted air-breathing inlets on LRTM are more efficient for long range purposes, small fins for lower drag and less need for high-G maneuverability - being the long range land attack version, it's 360mm diameter (according to "Those who had the Power") matches quite well with the supposed 370mm diameter gun-type nuclear warheads we had, or better still with the 203mm/175mm/155mm Linear implosion nuclear devices we also supposedly had - akin to the French ASMP, as mentioned.

But then we had MUPSOW, Torgos, Skua, Flowchart and Seraph for the long range (nuclear and conventional) strike purposes... (Raptor1 and 2 for mid to close range precision strike - 60-120 Km) - so why bother with LRTM (in the ground/strategic strike role)?

L-RAAM on the other hand has it's inlets facing outwards and has much larger rear control fins, perhaps not as (fuel) efficient as LRTM's inlets - but much better for high end-game maneuvering (air-air)? It would be good if we could get accurate specs and weights on both, I think that would clarify things up a bit more.

As mentioned, very much speculation on my part - anyway, below is a pic of LRTM (photo-shopped as if in flight) from a (Denel) Somchem brochure, I have a nice pic of it's test launch and other that I still need to scan and post.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2014, 11:27:30 pm by Graugrun »

Offline Graugrun

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Below pics include LRTM in a test launch, some background info including a pic of LRTM, L-RAAM (also being test fired) and two pics of the static test devices, note the black tubes feeding in the air for the nozzles on the static test benches. The last two pics show the fluid dynamics test bench and also show the laser being applied for measurement and testing purposes - this act (when everyone else was using air to test with), helped us get it right very quickly and was the big secret to our success with this nozzeless to boost air-breathing/ramjet missile.

Offline kaiserbill

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Once again, excellent post Graugrun.
 
Looking at the 2nd attachment, the inference does indeed seem to be that the name "Integral" was perhaps the technology codename that woukd be extrapolated into air-to-air missile and also a air-to-ground missile systems.

Offline Graugrun

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Yes Kaiserbill, I also noticed their reference to 'Integral' - below are some additional photos, the first is larger and in colour to that you posted (also note the car in the background for some basic size reference). the 2nd pic is from the above Somchem brochure for simply reference regards the differences between L-RAAM and LRTM.

The last two are pics I took at two Dexsa shows, the first is a simple mock-up of L-RAAM, the 2nd shows a hybrid L-RAAM/LRTM (L-RAAM intake nozzles and LRTM type non slimming rear with small control fins). The infrared type seeker is spurious, realistically it would need a protective cap for most of it's flight, popping off at the last minute, and at least a sapphire crystal glass dome cover to handle the high Mach heat. A Kentron spokesman on the stand confirmed this, he stated that it was simply to demonstrate the possibilities/flexability of the ramjet missile propulsion section - which is what they were really trying to sell - they wanted to create a talking point and thus attract attention with this unlikely combonation. Unfortunately similar pics have been published, leading many to think the intention was for an Infrared type missile, when in fact it would very likely be radar guided (in the air-air mode at least).

Offline kaiserbill

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Thanks Graugrun.
 
That third pic has some interesting stuff in the backround.
 
Looks like the SAHV on the right, with its launcher container. The container is nutria brown, so must be from the days when this was tested on the Cactus/Crotale vehicle, and was to be fitted to a Rooikat chassis to complement the twin 35mm SAPPG in the field.
 
Something interesting on the left too, behind the potted palm.
 
Once again, I must thank you for this info.
So little was out there before, apart form very few small black and white photos and some sparse detail.
It is thankful you were so diligent in your photography and brochure collecting.
 
We know from Those Who had the Power that tests were conducted in the late 1980's and early 1990's on the Integral ramjet project, including flight tests of prototypes achieving speeds well in excess of Mach 2.
 
That book actually lifted the lid for a peek onto quite a few programmes, for me at least, even if it was muffled for final publication due to various reasons.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2014, 12:07:21 pm by kaiserbill »

Offline compton_effect

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I've been trying to get my hands on that book for years now. Even spoke to the publisher a few times - they were at one time planning a new run, but it never happened.
I remember standing next to that display at the big DEXA '94 exhibition. And every question I asked the rep standing there was answered with 'I can't tell you.'

Offline Graugrun

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I'm going to come back to L-RAAM again, however just for a change in scenery, how about this one: 'Impundulu' (Zulu/Xhoza mythical lighting or vampire bird). When I took these pics at the last AAD show, I almost mentally discarded it as pure make-believe - however I then noticed that it was from CSIR and it had a project name (Impundulu). I know from chatting to a Hawk pilot at the show that the reason for intergrating A-Darter onto the Hawks (they don't have the radar etc to get it's full potential out of A-Darter), is by using Link ZA (our equivalent of the NATO/US Link 16) with the Gripen in a hunter killer type mode (Gripens stand back and finds the target, Hawks sneak in and fires A-Darter) - hence the A-Darter missiles, obviously the much bigger and longer range Impundulu would work in a similar way.

So what is Impundulu, a technology project, part or the forerunner of Marlin, or just quick plastic and cardboard missile model of nothing? Very interesting fins, section connections and rocket/jet(?) exhaust. Unfortunately I did not find anyone there to talk to about it (too busy looking for other stuff).

Again hopefully someone else can provide us with some more info on this potential long range missile project...
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 01:42:39 am by Graugrun »

Offline kaiserbill

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Very interesting Graugrun.
 
Denel/Kentron have for years been mentioning that they have a new BVRAAM project.
 
Looking at the (incomplete) history as I understand it, the R-Darter was the first indigineous BVRAAM.
This seems to have been a joint project with Israel, with the missiles looking the same externally, but apparently a divergence at some stage in the programme led to differences between the South African version and the Israeli version.
 
It seems that the follow on to R-Darter was to be a ramjet BVRAAM, as discussed in this thread.
Again, various public announcements in the press and displays supported this since the early 1990's, although it is clear that the previous levels of government funding were no longer available.
 
This funding issue seems to have led more recent announcements and displays (such as the Marlin BVRAAM displayed in South America) to focus on a non-ramjet BVRAAM instead, although I have seen a press report in the last few years that still mentioned the possibility of ramjet propulsion.
 
With this in mind, I also wonder if this Impundulu is a part of the Marlin project.
As you state, it has an actual name, which is not CSIR practice for fictional developments.
The seeker head, fins, and nozzle shape are interesting.
 
So, I also wonder if it is perhaps one of the Marlin BVRAAM applications being looked at, or which were looked at.
There have been some noises about Brazil joining into the existing BVRAAM programme like they did with A-Darter.
What year was this displayed in? You mention it was the most recent?
 
 
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 03:33:03 am by kaiserbill »

Offline compton_effect

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Is it my imagination - or is that a aerospike nozzle on the rocket motor?
That is one way to get a common performance at all altitudes.

Offline Graugrun

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Ahh, thanks - so that's what the aerospike nozzle is for - you can see it clearly in the 3rd (last) Impundulu photo. This was one of the things that made this look all too much like science fiction when I first saw this model, so I almost walked away thinking it was all just fantasy...
« Last Edit: July 09, 2014, 09:02:06 am by Graugrun »

Offline kaiserbill

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Thankfully you didn't just walk away, and were observant as well to pick up the code-name and thus to take pictures.
I'm quite intrigued by this missile.
 
I wish I had that foresight back in the day when I saw a large model of what later turned out to be the Carver at a public exhibition in Cape Town...
 
I still can't believe in hindsight that I didn't take photos, and kick myself to this day.
Instead, all that exists on the internet so far is the single pic of a model from the exhibition in Chile. So far.
 
Saying that, surely somebody else must have taken some pics of the model at that exhibition...
 

Offline Racer

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The special nozzle might be a valve for variable thrust?

Offline compton_effect

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Areospikes are a type of altitude compensating nozzles that allows for aerodynamic efficiency across a range of altitudes. It would allow the missile to have about 20% more thrust at low altitudes than a normal nozzle.
There's been a lot of research done about them for large rockets, there's even a new startup called Firefly Space Systems that's planning a smallsat launcher.
But I've never heard of a weapon making use of one.

But yeah, I think one testbed used a carbon carbon aerospike that could be moved in and out to vary thrust. It would make for one impressive bird if it could do that.