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Author Topic: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.  (Read 74494 times)

Offline Graugrun

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I think it necessary to lay some background for this thread - it will go a long way to creating some understanding for an outsider into why some a lot of the concepts we were developing were being done (and even those we did complete). It may not have made sense to a NATO country to develop - but then we were not a NATO country and we were certainly not fighting the type of war, or under the battle conditions they would have expected to.

I rate our relatively unknown 23 year "Border War" (1966-1989) as the 3rd to 4th largest of the "Cold Wars", after the Korean and Vietnam wars, but ahead of the Soviet Russian invasion of Afghanistan and the relatively short and sharp (but very little in-between) Middle East wars of the time.

What initially started out as a low intensity conflict, it escalated into a fierce and finally semi-conventional war, indirectly involving the two superpowers Soviet Russia and the USA. Although at it's peak we never committed more than 3000 Troops (not counting the Angolan UNITA soldiers), it is generally accepted that we faced the following: 55,000 Cubans, 3,000 Soviets, 2,000 East Germans and a sprinkling of Ukrainian, Rumanian, Bulgarian, Polish, North Korean and at least 40,000 Marxist FAPLA/SWAPO/ANC soldiers. These elements were backed by billions of dollars of some of the most advanced Soviet weaponry of the time, including MiG 23's/27's, Mi24/25 Hind gunships, T-55/T-62 tanks and various SAMs, radars and other equipment. These were led by Soviet generals, some of whom were veterans of the Afghanistan war.

According to "Air Wars and Aircraft" - Victor Flintham (Arms and Armour, London 1989) "...by early 1988, the (Angolan) air defence system was the most sophisticated of Soviet origin outside the Warsaw Pact countries. It comprised 75 mobile radar sets, 40 MiG-21's and 40 MiG-23's, SA-2, SA-3, SA-6, SA-8, SA-9, and SA-13 SAMs, ZSU-23 AAA and the man portable SA-7 and SA-14 missiles. This impressive range of equipment failed to deter the SAAF, which continued its strikes against SWAPO (and other) targets." - So much so that some of the most advanced Soviet weapons of the time which fell into Western hands were those captured by the South Africans, including the first captured Soviet SAM-8 and SAM-9/13 surface-to-air missile systems.

The first weapon in this thread is the BARB (Boosted Anti-Radiation Bomb) - and is in essence is a poor man's HARM/ALARM type of weapon. It seems to have been developed and tested to some degree, perhaps someone with more knowledge can add to this. It had a 127mm rocket in the tail to boost it's range and/or give it some sort of stand-off ability. It was also generally meant to be toss-bombed.

Towards the end of the war, the "other side" had complete control of the airspace - our Airforce had to perfect the "long toss-bombing technique", as we had no smart bombs for stand-off delivery and as described above operated in an extremely hostile air environment. I have included a brief description of toss bombing below, with a diagram for further ease of understanding (diagram from "From fledgling to Eagle" - Brig-Gen Dick Lord, and is for reference and discussion purposes only).

The toss-bombing technique perfected by the SAAF was the opposite of generally accepted tactics of the day. Instead of flying into enemy territory at great height and then diving at great speeds to deliver their bombs, the SAAF Mirages flew into their targets at 50 meters above the ground, then rose up steep and fast, while 7-8 km's from the target, releasing their bombs and thus "lobbing" them onto the target, then immediately returning to a height of 30 meters to fly home.


« Last Edit: January 12, 2014, 12:16:20 pm by Graugrun »

Offline Graugrun

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Apologies - finger trouble - this was meant to be included in the above post - the 2nd page of the BARB brochure....

Offline kaiserbill

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I don't know if BARB ever entered service.
It was sensible at the time to develope this, but I've never seen it shown nor described in the SAAF inventory.
This of course does not necessarily mean anything.
There are very few pics out there of BARB. I've only ever seen a couple, along with this picture below, of what I think is a BARB.
It looks to have the same light blue paint scheme, which isn't a colour normally associated with an operational weapon.
I assume the 127mm booster is taken off the Valkyrie/Bataleur Multiple Rocket Launcher rockets?

Offline Graugrun

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Kaiserbill - I don't think that's BARB in your picture, it has similar/the same fins and size, however if you look at the nose, your one looks more like a laser guided bomb. Interestingly enough the company (AMS) who developed BARB, also developed a laser guided 120mm mortar around at the same time (all circa 1992). It may just be that they were the original developers of our early laser guided bombs too (I thought we had bought the Israeli Lizard LGB - or did that come much later, or was the Lizard just license built by AMS for us?)

You are correct regards the 127mm rocket coming from the Valkyrie MRL rocket system, an AMS rep at the time confirmed that to me - said it made perfect sense in keeping things both simple and very cost effective.

AFAIK - the BARB was never taken on officially by the SAAF, perhaps someone with that knowledge can confirm this for us - perhaps it was sold to another country? - Anyhow, below is another brochure from AMS given out at the next DEXSA show (1994).

Offline kaiserbill

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Kaiserbill - I don't think that's BARB in your picture, it has similar/the same fins and size, however if you look at the nose, your one looks more like a laser guided bomb.


After another look, you're quite correct.
It appears to be a LGB of some type, most likely the IAI Griffin or local derivitive.

Offline Abraham Gubler

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You are correct regards the 127mm rocket coming from the Valkyrie MRL rocket system, an AMS rep at the time confirmed that to me - said it made perfect sense in keeping things both simple and very cost effective.


The Valkyrie 127mm rocket was itself a reuse of the design of the AIM-9B Sidewinder rocket motor copied in South Africa. So its a case of circular development when a aircraft weapon is reused for land use and then reused back for aircraft deployment.
"There is a tendency in our planning to confuse the unfamiliar with the improbable." Thomas Schelling

Offline TomS

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The overall concept (and especially the laser-guided version in the photograph) reminds me of the USN's Skipper II from the mid-1980s, which combined a Shrike motor with a 1,000-lb Paveway II LGB.  It was a nice quick-and-dirty way to add standoff range without a huge development effort.

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Could be a Griffin LGB?
"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
- Sir Sydney Camm

Offline kaiserbill

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Could be a Griffin LGB?

I think the LGB that I posted in front of the Cheetah is, on reflection.
In that photo, there is another similar weapon to the right, but with larger rear fins.

Offline Graugrun

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Could be a Griffin LGB?

I think the LGB that I posted in front of the Cheetah is, on reflection.
In that photo, there is another similar weapon to the right, but with larger rear fins.

The one on the right could just be a larger 250 Kg version - the smaller one on the left being 120 Kg...?

Staying on the laser theme - I am posting this in this forum as it seems most appropriate - the very seldom mentioned Kentron KZ2 Laser designator pod. I have only seen reference to it three times, this article being by far the most detailed.

Nothing has ever come up after that - I have my own theories (mostly involving Pakistan), hopefully someone can fill us in and or provide some photos... How far was it developed/tested, was it further improved to try to bring it up to the level of LANTIRN/Litening etc...etc?

Article courtesy of Flight International, March/April 1997.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2014, 05:28:58 am by Graugrun »

Offline kaiserbill

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Graugrun, what do you know of the various cruise missile type munitions?
I recall the MUPSOW, which was originally listed as having a range of 300km+ (I believe it was more), before magically shrinking down to around 150km, for clear reasons. ;)
Then the Torgos.
Some of the recent weapons from the Middle East seem to have a lot of influence from particularly the MUPSOW, as well as other SA UAV's, as Overscan (PaulMM) picked up in the Iranian Karrar thread from 4 years back.
What engine powers these munitions?
The APA-1 gas turbine as mentioned in the aviation thread lead to that small turbofan in the same thread that was displayed afterwards.
 
Then, there is the long range cruise missile developed by South Africa, which we can see these days in a much different role or format.  ;)
I recall when seeing it first (first powerd flight 1990) that it was obvious what its original role was, even before it was mooted in a certain book...
« Last Edit: January 12, 2014, 12:27:05 pm by kaiserbill »

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Could be a Griffin LGB?

I think the LGB that I posted in front of the Cheetah is, on reflection.
In that photo, there is another similar weapon to the right, but with larger rear fins.

The one on the right could just be a larger 250 Kg version - the smaller one on the left being 120 Kg...?

Staying on the laser theme - I am posting this in this forum as it seems most appropriate - the very seldom mentioned Kentron KZ2 Laser designator pod. I have only seen reference to it three times, this article being by far the most detailed.

Nothing has ever come up after that - I have my own theories (mostly involving Pakistan), hopefully someone can fill us in and or provide some photos... How far was it developed/tested, was it further improved to try to bring it up to the level of LANTIRN/Litening etc...etc?

Article courtesy of Flight International, March/April 1997.


Well, it would have looked somewhat like this, as it supposed to use the Raptor II command pod:
"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
- Sir Sydney Camm

Offline Graugrun

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Thanks for the pic Paul - and yes the article states that it would be based on the H2 comms pod - however note the 2nd type (shorter and fatter) "HAT-pod" next to the Raptor 2, the comms pod being on the opposite side -  input/comments anyone?
« Last Edit: January 13, 2014, 07:20:35 am by Graugrun »

Offline Graugrun

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Graugrun, what do you know of the various cruise missile type munitions?
I recall the MUPSOW, which was originally listed as having a range of 300km+ (I believe it was more), before magically shrinking down to around 150km, for clear reasons. ;)
Then the Torgos.
Some of the recent weapons from the Middle East seem to have a lot of influence from particularly the MUPSOW, as well as other SA UAV's, as Overscan (PaulMM) picked up in the Iranian Karrar thread from 4 years back.
What engine powers these munitions?
The APA-1 gas turbine as mentioned in the aviation thread lead to that small turbofan in the same thread that was displayed afterwards.
 
Then, there is the long range cruise missile developed by South Africa, which we can see these days in a much different role or format.  ;)
I recall when seeing it first (first powerd flight 1990) that it was obvious what its original role was, even before it was mooted in a certain book...

Kaiserbill - I was intending to start with the small, basic stuff - head onto the more interesting stuff and end off with the multiple MIRVed, nuclear warhead ICBM's we had/and were developing - thought It would be best to ease the unknowing casual/outside observer into things a little....

In terms of the small stuff, this perhaps just gets into the missile category by virtue of it being rocket assisted and also it's laser guidance. This was already far in the testing phase and almost ready for production, obviously fell victim to the huge defense cuts with the Border War ending at that time.

I would guess one of it's intended roles would be for Special Forces attacking high value targets within convoys and on airfields etc, deep within enemy lines (as they so often did in Angola). While the article (Defence Minister and Chief of Staff No.3/1989) mentions Armscor as being behind the development, the actual company involved is AMS, the same as for the BARB bomb above.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2014, 10:13:01 am by Graugrun »

Offline Graugrun

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A novel (anti-surface) warhead design by Somchem for the Gabriel anti-shipping missile.

It's rather different and interesting in it's approach, I wonder how much further it was taken - was it fully developed, sold to anyone else, or did anyone else perhaps pick up on it and use it or something similar for their own purposes?

Article at the bottom is courtesy Jane's IDR 1/1997.

Offline kaiserbill

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Interesting.
 
I was not aware of any local Skerpioen (Gabriel) developments.
 

Offline compton_effect

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Wow. Thanks for the Gabriel info. I remember reading about the warhead years ago, on one of the missile websites. But could not find any info about it.

Offline panzerskool

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I'm reading SADF in the border war 1966- 1989 and read that 3 ships were sunk / damaged by SA frogmen planting mines in the port of Namibe in 1986. So did a bit of searching around for more info on it as its important to note that these were Cuban and Soviet ships not Angolan and read the following LA times article which mentions a ground attack by Skerpioen missiles.


other articles state it was only frogmen who blew the tanks including Peter Stiff’s [/size]The Silent War – South African Recce Operations 1969 – 1994[/color][/i]

[/size]interesting never the less
[/color]


[/size]Cuban, Soviet Ships Hit in Angola Port
June 07, 1986
|From Reuters

MOSCOW — The official news agency Tass said Friday that Soviet and Cuban cargo ships were hit in the Angolan port of Namibe at the time of a reported South African raid there Thursday.
Tass said that two Soviet ships, the Kapitan Vislobokov and the Kapitan Chirkov, were seriously damaged as they unloaded in the southern Angolan port. No one was injured, it said.

In Havana, the official daily newspaper Granma reported that the 6,000-ton Cuban cargo ship Habana was sunk. It said the Habana, on contract to the Angolan government for coastal trade, was unloading food. No casualties on the ship were reported.
The official Angolan news agency ANGOP said that in the Thursday morning raid on Namibe, a South African warship armed with Scorpion missiles destroyed two fuel tanks while frogmen planted mines on three ships in the harbor, sinking one of them.
South Africa refused to comment on the raid report.
Helped by Cuban Troops
Cuba has an estimated 30,000 troops in Angola in support of its Marxist government. The Soviet Union has supplied Angola with military hardware.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2014, 07:53:16 pm by panzerskool »

Offline panzerskool

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did we have a license to manufacture the Gabriel or did we just get supplies from Israel? can't see a manufacturing of a sophisticated system for such a limited need (6 per boat , 9 boats plus dummy shots , test platforms and practice shots ) what maybe 100 missiles?

Offline Graugrun

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I'm reading SADF in the border war 1966- 1989 and read that 3 ships were sunk / damaged by SA frogmen planting mines in the port of Namibe in 1986. So did a bit of searching around for more info on it as its important to note that these were Cuban and Soviet ships not Angolan and read the following LA times article which mentions a ground attack by Skerpioen missiles.


Cuban, Soviet Ships Hit in Angola Port
June 07, 1986
|From Reuters

MOSCOW — The official news agency Tass said Friday that Soviet and Cuban cargo ships were hit in the Angolan port of Namibe at the time of a reported South African raid there Thursday.
Tass said that two Soviet ships, the Kapitan Vislobokov and the Kapitan Chirkov, were seriously damaged as they unloaded in the southern Angolan port. No one was injured, it said.

In Havana, the official daily newspaper Granma reported that the 6,000-ton Cuban cargo ship Habana was sunk. It said the Habana, on contract to the Angolan government for coastal trade, was unloading food. No casualties on the ship were reported.
The official Angolan news agency ANGOP said that in the Thursday morning raid on Namibe, a South African warship armed with Scorpion missiles destroyed two fuel tanks while frogmen planted mines on three ships in the harbor, sinking one of them.
South Africa refused to comment on the raid report.
Helped by Cuban Troops
Cuba has an estimated 30,000 troops in Angola in support of its Marxist government. The Soviet Union has supplied Angola with military hardware.


Panzerskool - Douw Steyn and Arne Soderland's book "Iron fist from the sea" will reveal all when it is published June/July this year. Douw was one of the Attack Divers who lead one of the teams on the above-mentioned raid (Arne is a retired Rear Admiral, who commanded a Strike Craft around that time). All I will say is that no missiles where fired from a Strike Craft in this raid - BTW see below pic of the book's cover.

Although very interesting, I don't want to go into this story too much as we are now heading way off this site's topic...
« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 07:55:55 am by Graugrun »

Offline panzerskool

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look forward to the book and will pre order. I have "last battle of the cold war "on preorder as well . Lots coming out now about Cuito.


Thanks for clearing that up.


What about the manufacture of the ASM in SA?

Offline Graugrun

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The 68mm Mechem RO68 has a range of 6,500m. Basically, it was the 68mm SNEB as found on aircraft. This was built with a six-round tripod mounted launcher assembly weighing only 45kg, or 4 tube version which was lighter. Touted at special forces, the cheap, colapsible launcher was disposable. Timer or crew fired, proximity fuse could explode 3 meters above ground, spraying 3000 steel balls. Aimed with standard mortar sight.

I'm unsure whether this has actually been serially produced or productionised, but below are the only 2 pics I've ever seen of this concept, and I've never heard of any service induction over the years.

Just in case you're still interested in this - brochure below..

Offline curious george

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Sorry I cant credit the sources for these as I dont remember where I found them lol.

Offline panzerskool

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still a question for all. Were the Skerpion/ Gabriel simply shipped form Israel or did we make them under license?

Offline compton_effect

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Those IRBM/ICMB pictures look like the ones that are on Encyclopedia Astronautica.
He has a very detailed page about our launcher project and a breakdown of each variant.

Offline Graugrun

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I wanted to build up from the basic stuff and ease into the nuclear stuff later on... so Curious George, I will post much more on the nuke stuff in time to come.

In the meantime, lets up the ant a bit with this very interesting missile/propulsion project (or missile technology demonstrator) - which had various names, L-RAAM being one of them. Development started in the mid 80's IIRC, with the first successful test taking place in 1988. Different sized calibres were also developed and tested - 127mm, 180mm and 230mm that I know of. A speed of Mach 2.3 was attained in tests, and although ranges were never disclosed - talk of over 400km was mentioned at one point.

It's a long story - how did we get it right when even some major powers could not (nozzle-less boost to RAM speed), that we used laser and water/fluid dynamics in the design and research (a very different approach to anyone else - which obviously worked very well for us), why was it never used/tested as part of a full missile (or was it). Was it sold to a few other countries for their use (strong speculation and rumours around that). Will it form part of the new project 'Marlin' BVR air to air missile, was it always meant to be part of T-Darter/B-Darter/S-Darter etc...?

So many questions, so few answers. What we do know is that it was tested successfully on multiple occasions and worked very well (one of these tests is pictured in the brochure below). It was a Somchem product BTW, and not Kentron/Denel Dynamics as is often thought.

I welcome some informed input/debate on this one ;) .


« Last Edit: June 25, 2014, 12:33:18 pm by Graugrun »

Offline kaiserbill

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Excellent.
 
I had previously only known this under the name "Integral".
I suspect that was the vehicle technology codename.
 
There had been some speculation that it was geared toward a land attack missile, in a role similar to the French ASMP.
Perhaps the larger diameter (230mm) calibre was.
 
It appears from what you have posted that the BVRAAM and SAM versions were the either the sole versions, or more likely the ones to be realised first from the technology.
The brochure also seems pretty sure on many of the details (such as warhead weight, etc) so I now suspect quite a lot of work was done in this regard, over and above the various test flights I've read about.
 
I'd also had these pics below kicking about on my computer, from various sources, pertaining to South African ramjet missiles and BVRAAM's.
They must therefore be related.

 
The first pic below, Somchem Ramjet, I pulled off one of Somchems pages a few years back.

Offline Graugrun

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Nice pics Kaiserbill,

I had read some Somchen brochure in the past that stated that the very first picture you posted was in fact one of Somchen's ramjet artillery designs, it worked as a sort sabot within a 155mm artillery shell, sacrificing payload (size and therefore HE filling) for extreme range (for an artillery shell). It was all part of the 'Loosvoor' (Well-ahead) artillery program, unfortunately AFAIK it was not developed further for either practicality or funding reasons - hopefully someone can fill us in some more on this very interesting and perhaps unique project (pictured again below)



Offline TomS

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Not completely unique. 

Denel had a round called ProRam that was also being worked on in the early 2000s.  It was a full-caliber ramjet artillery round:
 

Images below are slides from: http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2004armaments/DayII/SessionII/13Fitchat_South_African_COOP.pdf
 

Offline kaiserbill

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Some further info on the South African artillery ramjet projectiles, with some pics and windtunnel results.
 
 

Offline Graugrun

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Thanks to both TomS and Kaiserbill for the additional info - Somchem became a division of Denel BTW, so it's their artillery shells pictured in the South African/American proposed co-operation slides. The proposal was with regards various South African artillery ammunition (charges and rounds) and the Denel LEO 105mm gun mounted on the LAV III as a SPH.

The lethality of our 105mm rounds exceeds that of American and European 155mm rounds by a very large margin, I believe that the U.K. and the U.S.A have both adopted on the 105mm rounds and Bi-modular propellant charges (someone with better knowledge on this can correct me or add some more info). There is much more to this artillery story, however I believe it belongs in the South African Army section.

Back to the L-RAAM, below are two scans from an old CSIR (Council for Scientific and Industrial Research) brochure, advertising their high speed wind tunnel capabilities, note the two pics showing and testing the ramjet inlets.

An earlier version of this missile was called the LRTM (Long Range Tactical Missile), I will also scan and post some more on this soon.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2014, 07:53:13 am by Graugrun »

Offline kaiserbill

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Thanks Graugrun.
 
That second pic in your first attachment...what missile is that? A-Darter?
 
Was the LRTM then the land attack missile version I mentioned earlier, akin to the French ASMP?
 
Look forward to your next post...

Offline Graugrun

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Kaiserbill, the 2nd pic down in the first attachment is indeed A-Darter.

I always thought that LRTM was just an earlier iteration of L-RAAM, however perhaps your are correct in that they are two different missiles designed for two different purposes. If this is true, then as some pure, uneducated speculation on my part, is that perhaps the reversed/inverted air-breathing inlets on LRTM are more efficient for long range purposes, small fins for lower drag and less need for high-G maneuverability - being the long range land attack version, it's 360mm diameter (according to "Those who had the Power") matches quite well with the supposed 370mm diameter gun-type nuclear warheads we had, or better still with the 203mm/175mm/155mm Linear implosion nuclear devices we also supposedly had - akin to the French ASMP, as mentioned.

But then we had MUPSOW, Torgos, Skua, Flowchart and Seraph for the long range (nuclear and conventional) strike purposes... (Raptor1 and 2 for mid to close range precision strike - 60-120 Km) - so why bother with LRTM (in the ground/strategic strike role)?

L-RAAM on the other hand has it's inlets facing outwards and has much larger rear control fins, perhaps not as (fuel) efficient as LRTM's inlets - but much better for high end-game maneuvering (air-air)? It would be good if we could get accurate specs and weights on both, I think that would clarify things up a bit more.

As mentioned, very much speculation on my part - anyway, below is a pic of LRTM (photo-shopped as if in flight) from a (Denel) Somchem brochure, I have a nice pic of it's test launch and other that I still need to scan and post.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2014, 11:27:30 pm by Graugrun »

Offline Graugrun

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Below pics include LRTM in a test launch, some background info including a pic of LRTM, L-RAAM (also being test fired) and two pics of the static test devices, note the black tubes feeding in the air for the nozzles on the static test benches. The last two pics show the fluid dynamics test bench and also show the laser being applied for measurement and testing purposes - this act (when everyone else was using air to test with), helped us get it right very quickly and was the big secret to our success with this nozzeless to boost air-breathing/ramjet missile.

Offline kaiserbill

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Once again, excellent post Graugrun.
 
Looking at the 2nd attachment, the inference does indeed seem to be that the name "Integral" was perhaps the technology codename that woukd be extrapolated into air-to-air missile and also a air-to-ground missile systems.

Offline Graugrun

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Yes Kaiserbill, I also noticed their reference to 'Integral' - below are some additional photos, the first is larger and in colour to that you posted (also note the car in the background for some basic size reference). the 2nd pic is from the above Somchem brochure for simply reference regards the differences between L-RAAM and LRTM.

The last two are pics I took at two Dexsa shows, the first is a simple mock-up of L-RAAM, the 2nd shows a hybrid L-RAAM/LRTM (L-RAAM intake nozzles and LRTM type non slimming rear with small control fins). The infrared type seeker is spurious, realistically it would need a protective cap for most of it's flight, popping off at the last minute, and at least a sapphire crystal glass dome cover to handle the high Mach heat. A Kentron spokesman on the stand confirmed this, he stated that it was simply to demonstrate the possibilities/flexability of the ramjet missile propulsion section - which is what they were really trying to sell - they wanted to create a talking point and thus attract attention with this unlikely combonation. Unfortunately similar pics have been published, leading many to think the intention was for an Infrared type missile, when in fact it would very likely be radar guided (in the air-air mode at least).

Offline kaiserbill

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Thanks Graugrun.
 
That third pic has some interesting stuff in the backround.
 
Looks like the SAHV on the right, with its launcher container. The container is nutria brown, so must be from the days when this was tested on the Cactus/Crotale vehicle, and was to be fitted to a Rooikat chassis to complement the twin 35mm SAPPG in the field.
 
Something interesting on the left too, behind the potted palm.
 
Once again, I must thank you for this info.
So little was out there before, apart form very few small black and white photos and some sparse detail.
It is thankful you were so diligent in your photography and brochure collecting.
 
We know from Those Who had the Power that tests were conducted in the late 1980's and early 1990's on the Integral ramjet project, including flight tests of prototypes achieving speeds well in excess of Mach 2.
 
That book actually lifted the lid for a peek onto quite a few programmes, for me at least, even if it was muffled for final publication due to various reasons.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2014, 12:07:21 pm by kaiserbill »

Offline compton_effect

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I've been trying to get my hands on that book for years now. Even spoke to the publisher a few times - they were at one time planning a new run, but it never happened.
I remember standing next to that display at the big DEXA '94 exhibition. And every question I asked the rep standing there was answered with 'I can't tell you.'

Offline Graugrun

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I'm going to come back to L-RAAM again, however just for a change in scenery, how about this one: 'Impundulu' (Zulu/Xhoza mythical lighting or vampire bird). When I took these pics at the last AAD show, I almost mentally discarded it as pure make-believe - however I then noticed that it was from CSIR and it had a project name (Impundulu). I know from chatting to a Hawk pilot at the show that the reason for intergrating A-Darter onto the Hawks (they don't have the radar etc to get it's full potential out of A-Darter), is by using Link ZA (our equivalent of the NATO/US Link 16) with the Gripen in a hunter killer type mode (Gripens stand back and finds the target, Hawks sneak in and fires A-Darter) - hence the A-Darter missiles, obviously the much bigger and longer range Impundulu would work in a similar way.

So what is Impundulu, a technology project, part or the forerunner of Marlin, or just quick plastic and cardboard missile model of nothing? Very interesting fins, section connections and rocket/jet(?) exhaust. Unfortunately I did not find anyone there to talk to about it (too busy looking for other stuff).

Again hopefully someone else can provide us with some more info on this potential long range missile project...
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 01:42:39 am by Graugrun »

Offline kaiserbill

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Very interesting Graugrun.
 
Denel/Kentron have for years been mentioning that they have a new BVRAAM project.
 
Looking at the (incomplete) history as I understand it, the R-Darter was the first indigineous BVRAAM.
This seems to have been a joint project with Israel, with the missiles looking the same externally, but apparently a divergence at some stage in the programme led to differences between the South African version and the Israeli version.
 
It seems that the follow on to R-Darter was to be a ramjet BVRAAM, as discussed in this thread.
Again, various public announcements in the press and displays supported this since the early 1990's, although it is clear that the previous levels of government funding were no longer available.
 
This funding issue seems to have led more recent announcements and displays (such as the Marlin BVRAAM displayed in South America) to focus on a non-ramjet BVRAAM instead, although I have seen a press report in the last few years that still mentioned the possibility of ramjet propulsion.
 
With this in mind, I also wonder if this Impundulu is a part of the Marlin project.
As you state, it has an actual name, which is not CSIR practice for fictional developments.
The seeker head, fins, and nozzle shape are interesting.
 
So, I also wonder if it is perhaps one of the Marlin BVRAAM applications being looked at, or which were looked at.
There have been some noises about Brazil joining into the existing BVRAAM programme like they did with A-Darter.
What year was this displayed in? You mention it was the most recent?
 
 
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 03:33:03 am by kaiserbill »

Offline compton_effect

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Is it my imagination - or is that a aerospike nozzle on the rocket motor?
That is one way to get a common performance at all altitudes.

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Ahh, thanks - so that's what the aerospike nozzle is for - you can see it clearly in the 3rd (last) Impundulu photo. This was one of the things that made this look all too much like science fiction when I first saw this model, so I almost walked away thinking it was all just fantasy...
« Last Edit: July 09, 2014, 09:02:06 am by Graugrun »

Offline kaiserbill

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Thankfully you didn't just walk away, and were observant as well to pick up the code-name and thus to take pictures.
I'm quite intrigued by this missile.
 
I wish I had that foresight back in the day when I saw a large model of what later turned out to be the Carver at a public exhibition in Cape Town...
 
I still can't believe in hindsight that I didn't take photos, and kick myself to this day.
Instead, all that exists on the internet so far is the single pic of a model from the exhibition in Chile. So far.
 
Saying that, surely somebody else must have taken some pics of the model at that exhibition...
 

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The special nozzle might be a valve for variable thrust?

Offline compton_effect

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Areospikes are a type of altitude compensating nozzles that allows for aerodynamic efficiency across a range of altitudes. It would allow the missile to have about 20% more thrust at low altitudes than a normal nozzle.
There's been a lot of research done about them for large rockets, there's even a new startup called Firefly Space Systems that's planning a smallsat launcher.
But I've never heard of a weapon making use of one.

But yeah, I think one testbed used a carbon carbon aerospike that could be moved in and out to vary thrust. It would make for one impressive bird if it could do that.

Offline kaiserbill

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Ramjet propulsion was still being discussed recently, within the last 2 or 3 years, as can be seen by a "show-and-tell" presentation described below. The author meant ramjet, obviously...
 
Quote
...was the development of a long-range multi-role, multi-mode 6th generation B-Darter missile with radar and IR seeker technology and ramrod propulsion to achieve a 100km range.

http://www.wattnow.co.za/article.php?id=649

Offline kaiserbill

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Some info on Denels FSIM missile.
 
I'd not heard of it until today.
 
Interesting is the stealthy Ingwe ATGW on display in the middle.
 
http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=20260

Offline compton_effect

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I've seen that photo a few times and every time my first thought is - 'That must be the ugliest demo model ever made'


I mean, it looks like a first year engineering student slapped it together with some stuff he found in the one storeroom.

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There is a lot more that I need to still add to this thread - in the meantime though, a nice article covering some of the latest developments and prototypes on the go.

http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/article/international-partnerships-start-paying-off-for-sa-aerospace-and-defence-group-2014-08-01

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One of the many developmental weapons the article in the link posted above talks a bit about is Umkhonto (Zulu - short stabbing spear) long range radar guided version. Here it is posed above two models of the short range and in use Unkhonto IR (South Africa, Finland and soon Algeria), and a cheap CLOS option (not yet sold). While the range of the IR version has just been increased to 20 Km, there has been various mention of the longer range radar guided version being in the 45-65 Km range class. Initially they had developed a standard type booster attached to the rear of the radar missile to obtain the extended range, now they seem to be opting for twin boosters on the sides of the missile - I would assume this was the only way they could ensure it was compateble with existing launch tubes.

As per the article in the link above, the radar seeker they are busy developing will also be used (maybe slightly modified?) in the new Marlin long range air-air AMRAAM type missile that they are also busy developing.

Pics taken at AAD 2012.

Offline kaiserbill

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I think that is the GBADS ground based SAM launcher unit in the backround?
 
That earlier link you posted was interesting, stressing that the AAM missile itself, not the project, is called Marlin.

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Quite correct Kaiserbill, that's a GBADS ground launcher in the background - moving onto another, here are some photos of the prototype Umbani (lightning) PGM, the first pic shows it without the range extension wing kit the 2nd pic with it attached and extended. It has now been ordered and is being jointly produced by Denel Dynamics and Tawazan Holdings in the UAE, after a $490 million order was placed by the UAE for the Umbani - now re-named Al-Tariq for use on their Mirage 2000-9's and perhaps also on their F-16 E/F Block 60's. - link regards the Al-Tariq purchase and it's ramifications -  http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/new-options-denel-tawazuns-precision-weapons-partnership-07551/

Note the copper coloured antennae around the front portion of Umbani in the first pic - I assume it's the GPS antennae.

Also note in the 2nd pic, the A-Darter missile mock-up on the ground under the Gripen's wing - it's a rather fat missile, whereas the IRIS-T mounted on the wingtip is a rather thin missile for it's class.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2014, 10:54:23 am by Graugrun »

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Who knows what this is?

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Ryan 147 drone
"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
- Sir Sydney Camm

Offline sa_bushwar

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Did not know the SAAF had these, must have been procured before USA sanctions.

Ryan 147 drone

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I posted without verifying.

Its probably actually a Teledyne Ryan Firebee target as the South African Air Force used those.
"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
- Sir Sydney Camm

Offline kaiserbill

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I posted without verifying.

Its probably actually a Teledyne Ryan Firebee target as the South African Air Force used those.

I was not aware of that Paul.
 
Do you have any further info on this?
Google didn't really reveal anything.
 
Where and when was the picture taken, SA Bushwar?
 
EDIT: The Friends of the SAAF Museum list a Teledyne Ryan Model 124 Firebee I which has a construction number of AF-83-0553 and a "previous identity" of 78022 listed in storage.
 
http://www.saaffriends.co.za/gallery/aeroplanes/museum_planes/list_of_museum_planes.htm
« Last Edit: August 10, 2014, 04:56:50 am by kaiserbill »

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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It's a US BGM-34A from 1983. No idea what its doing in South Africa.

http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_serials/1983.html

83-0514 - 83-0568      Ryan BQM-34A Firebee
"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
- Sir Sydney Camm

Offline sa_bushwar

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Picture taken at SAAF museum AFB Zwartkops, approx 2010, so it must be the item you refer to below.

I posted without verifying.

Its probably actually a Teledyne Ryan Firebee target as the South African Air Force used those.

I was not aware of that Paul.
 
Do you have any further info on this?
Google didn't really reveal anything.
 
Where and when was the picture taken, SA Bushwar?
 
EDIT: The Friends of the SAAF Museum list a Teledyne Ryan Model 124 Firebee I which has a construction number of AF-83-0553 and a "previous identity" of 78022 listed in storage.
 
http://www.saaffriends.co.za/gallery/aeroplanes/museum_planes/list_of_museum_planes.htm

Offline kaiserbill

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It's interesting in that it is painted the same blue as most of the combat planes (Buccaneer, Canberra, Mirage and Cheetah) of the SAAF of the time, and not a hi-vis colour for target work.
As Paul says, if the link given above has the correct serial numbers, then this was a combat variant, not a target variant.
 
Quite intriguing, to say the least....
 
Any other pics of it SA Bushwar?
« Last Edit: August 10, 2014, 07:39:53 am by kaiserbill »

Offline sa_bushwar

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Maybe it was used for the development of the Raptor or Mupsow?

It's interesting in that it is painted the same blue as most of the combat planes (Buccaneer, Canberra, Mirage and Cheetah) of the SAAF of the time, and not a hi-vis colour for target work.
As Paul says, if the link given above has the correct serial numbers, then this was a combat variant, not a target variant.
 
Quite intriguing, to say the least....
 
Any other pics of it SA Bushwar?

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H2 run on Cuito Bridge...





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Raptor I, Raptor II and Raptor IID.

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Laser guided bomb?

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120mm mortar rocket assisted bomb. I understand this concept have also been extended to the 81mm and 60mm mortars?

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Ingwe guts

Offline kaiserbill

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #67 on: September 02, 2014, 03:19:16 pm »
Does anyone have any backround info on the Skua target drone?
 
It has been mentioned in a book that the Skua was originally designed as a long range cruise missile, and was redeveloped into a target drone once the cold war ended.
Looking at the size and design, that makes a lot of sense.
 
Any history on the Skua would be most appreciated.

Offline sa_bushwar

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #68 on: September 04, 2014, 06:53:23 am »
Do not have any history, but here is a 2004 picture, and a strange Skua lookalike mock-up at the SAAF museum at AFB Zwartkops

Does anyone have any backround info on the Skua target drone?
 
It has been mentioned in a book that the Skua was originally designed as a long range cruise missile, and was redeveloped into a target drone once the cold war ended.
Looking at the size and design, that makes a lot of sense.
 
Any history on the Skua would be most appreciated.

Offline panzerskool

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #69 on: September 04, 2014, 10:01:10 am »
question for those in the know. Did We produce Skerpions under license or simply buy off the shelf Gabrials from Israel?

Offline kaiserbill

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #70 on: September 05, 2014, 06:50:21 am »
SA Bushwar, thanks for that pic of what looks like some sort of Skua type mick-up.
I wonder what the story behind that is?
Any further info?
Is it definitely something to do with the Skua, or is it something else?

EDIT: Nevermind, I see you said a type of "Skua lookalike". Be interesting to know what it is.

 
Panserskool, I'm also interested in whether the Skerpioen/Gabriel was produced in SA.
Certainly, Graugrun posted a couple of attachments earlier that show different types of warheads were designed in South Africa.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2014, 07:36:53 am by kaiserbill »

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #71 on: September 08, 2014, 11:44:32 am »
Fuel tank??? Another mystery from AFB Zwartkops.

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #72 on: September 08, 2014, 12:03:33 pm »
Looks like the big centerline drop tank for the Mirage F.1.

Offline curious george

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #73 on: September 08, 2014, 01:09:25 pm »
Looks like the big centerline drop tank for the Mirage F.1.

Indeed,as a kid I had a 1:48scale F1 (cz) with a fuel tank like that.

Offline kaiserbill

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #74 on: September 09, 2014, 12:46:02 am »
I seem to recall reading on the Saairforce forum that this was an indigenous project to replace the original aluminium Mirage F1 drop tank with a composite one.
I speak under correction though.
 
I think it was around the time of the All Composite Evaluator (ACE) and the composite fuel tanks and sponsons developed for the Oryx helicopter.
 
I'll see what I can find out.
 
I'm still interested in that mock-up of that winged cruise missile/target drone thingy SA Bushwar posted up a little earlier if anyone has any info...
SA Bushwar, do those displays have any information or name boards?
« Last Edit: September 09, 2014, 03:15:05 am by kaiserbill »

Offline kaiserbill

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #75 on: September 09, 2014, 03:43:46 am »
That tank above was an RP35 type fuel tank as used by the Mirage F1, containing 1200 liters.
 
This was a local project (CSIR) designed to manufacture a composite replacement of the original aluminium version.
 
3 prototypes were built, with the first being for structural testing. The next 2 prototypes were fully equipped and contained fuel and electrical systems.
I think this one above is the first prototype.
 
The project was actually to see whether new tanks should be constructed in aluminium or composites. Composites were selected due to a number of advantages, listed as including good corrosion behaviour with moisture and fuel, lower likelihood of suffering catastrophic structural failure due to a hostile strike, relatively low tooling requirements and cost for complex shapes, and greater scope to tailor the structural dynamics of the new drop tank to the original to prevent additional flutter clearance work.
 
Prepreg materials showed greater promise than wet lay-up systems, and weave was both plain weave and unidirectional.

 http://researchspace.csir.co.za/dspace/bitstream/10204/3235/1/Du%20Preez1_2007.pdf

 
It really belongs in the aerospace projects section.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2014, 04:24:11 am by kaiserbill »

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #76 on: September 13, 2014, 02:18:09 am »
Drone??? - seen in storage at AFB Zwartkops.

Offline kaiserbill

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #77 on: September 13, 2014, 04:25:57 am »
Italian Meteor Target Drone.

Offline Graugrun

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #78 on: September 14, 2014, 02:15:39 am »
Kaiserbill from what I have been told you are correct in terms of Skua originally being designed as a cruise missile. As with most high end South African projects, the cruise missile project was two tiered, that then later developed into a three tier project. The three tiers being:

1.Lower-end, low risk - Skua
2.Medium to high risk - MUPSOW (and later Torgus)
3. High risk - Flowchart 2 (later Seraph)

Flowchart 2/Seraph has always been of great interest to me for this reason - paraded under the (flimsy) covers of high speed UAV's and "stealthy" target drones (to allow the AA fraternity in the field to test their abilities and skills on stealth objects - according to Denel). The Seraph brochure states that it has a maximum range of 1300 km, 10- 1200m altitude, max speed of Mach 0.85 - Flowchart 2 must have had similar performances.

Back to Skua The IDR article posted below (published Jan 1993) states that it has a 100kg payload (including external storage), however take out the landing/recovery cushions and parachute and you can then easily fit more internally and increase the weight of a potential warhead. Since we supposedly had developed tactical nukes to fit in 155mm G5/6 gun shells, it would be more than easy enough to turn these into strategic nuclear cruise missile (one drawing in "Those who had the power" shows off the ability to launch two Skua's from our then Daphne submarines). The IDR article also mentions a 800km programmed round trip capability.

This is naturally a bit speculative, however I know at least one insider who is adamant that this is the case.

SA Bushwar's earlier picture post shows the early prototype/concept with the mini turbine mounted above the body. What I can tell you is that Denel Dynamics have revealed that they are definitely working on a Skua successor that they refer to internally simply as "Target 2". I know that we hired some Skua's out to Brazil for them to test their air-air projects with, later we sold them a couple.

See below for an early and later brochure on Skua - I will post some more on Flowchart 2 and Seraph in time to come.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2014, 02:27:37 am by Graugrun »

Offline kaiserbill

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #79 on: September 14, 2014, 01:34:44 pm »
Thanks for the detailed reply and attachments, Graugrun.
 
Even before I had read in that book about the Skua being initially designed as a cruise missile, years before when the Skua had first been revealed, the very first thing that came into my mind when I saw it first was that it had a cruise missile pedigree behind it.
 
I was not aware that the others, MUPSOW and Flowchart/Seraph, were basically contenders, just at different capability levels. I'd assumed they were follow-ons. Interesting.
 
Certainly, the heavy "target drone" story never really stood up as logical to me, particularly as there was more than one design, one of which had clear signature reduction/stealth features... ;D
 
When one looks at the known MRBM/ICBM programme, then the obvious cruise missile component is pure logic.

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #80 on: September 15, 2014, 05:05:07 am »
Another thing about that trio of cruise missiles....
 
I note you said it was 2 tiered, then became 3 tiered.
 
Something that I've noticed, and it is my opinion only:
The MUPSOW, later Torgos, is an air launched cruise missile (ALCM).
 
The other two, Skua and Flowchart/Seraph, seem to me to be far too big for the platforms the South African Airforce were going to operate from the mid/late 1990's onwards. Thus, they appear to me to be land launched missiles, or possibly sea launched too.
 
With the dwindling Buccaneer strike force on it's way out, the mid to late 90's would have seen upgraded Cheetah C's, D's, upgraded Mirage F1's, and the New Generation Fighter Aircraft (Carver) coming on line at some point.
None of these seem nearly large enough to tote a Skua or Flowchart/Seraph style ALCM. Not even the Buccaneer would have been either, IMHO.
 
The only aircraft with the size to launch them would have been the Boeing 707's.
I've seen it mentioned that additional examples were to be procured, with a view toward more offensive missions.
 
Still, that aside, it appears to me therefore that the MUPSOW/Torgos was the ALCM, and Skua and Flowchart/Seraph were a two tiered, land launched system.
Unless the Boeing 707 expansion programme, with a view to be an aerial launcher, was definitely the way planned ahead...

If I'm correct, this would mean Skua and Flowchart were in direct competition as the low/high end, and the MUPSOW/Torgos a seperate strand? If not in launch method, then certainly size?
 
Speculation on my part, of course.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2014, 05:07:28 am by kaiserbill »

Offline sa_bushwar

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #81 on: September 17, 2014, 03:22:15 am »
I do not see a photo of the Mupsow in this threat. For those wondering how the Mupsow (Multi purpose standoff weapon) looks...here is a photo of an early demonstrator version.

Offline Graugrun

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #82 on: September 18, 2014, 10:36:43 am »
Kaiserbill, your deductions make good sense, I need to chat to my source again in terms of this - it was many years ago, so my memory could be out a bit... Regarding the submarines, I need to correct myself, it was not from the Daphne's that the launch of 2 X Skua (cruise missiles) was shown as a diagram in "Those Who had The Power"  - but rather from a HDW Type 209/1500 - that we had apparentely bought the blue-prints for.

The real reason for this post was to show the first mock-up of Raptor III as revealed at AAD 2014 - herewith some pics I took earlier today - it will be powered by a mini turbojet and weigh under 1 ton (Raptor II is 1,2 tons). I had a long chat with the program lead from Denel on this, however I will expand on this in a later post - in the meantime here are the pics!

Offline kaiserbill

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #83 on: September 19, 2014, 06:30:03 am »
Interesting.
A mini cruise missile.
 
Looking forward to more pics and info. ;D
 
Hopefully you asked lots of questions, particuarly about previous stand-off weapons, and various BVRAAMs...

Offline Graugrun

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #84 on: September 21, 2014, 06:25:15 am »
As per the posts in the "Various aviation projects from South Africa" thread, in the Postwar Aircraft Projects section, I have decided to post this here as it relates specifically to cruise missile use -

I chatted to the lead engineer from CSIR on this project, and in essence he mentioned the following:

1. There is a strong international need/requirement that has been placed on them, hence the Resurrection of the program (plus a local need).
2. He dug up the project "Apartment" program purely as a starting point for the project, so as not to 'reinvent the wheel' - however his initial designs will differ quite a bit (much lighter, smaller, more powerful and more fuel efficient).
3. He has commissioned Stellenbosch University and a small private company to design and build a 200N turbojet engine for radio controlled models use. This could have easily been bought off the shelf, however the aim was to produce our own and obtain the basic knowledge and grounding, allowing them to develop larger stuff later. They have completed the 200N project (I will post pics later).
4. The University and small company are now busy with designing the 600N advanced cycle turbine for Glider sustain-er purposes - and to further increase their ability.
5. He has a request to produce a very compact engine (could be the 600N mentioned above, or perhaps the new 3 kN model, developed from project Apartment?), for the Raptor III as per my post above. Although the lead Engineer on the Raptor III told me that he is free to choose any gas turbine engine he wants - so if CSIR don't make it in time, I guess Denel is going elsewhere. He will end up on a 6.6 kN model at the end of this project (so -200N, then 600N, then 3.3 kN, ending with a 6.6 kN engine).
6. He mentioned that there were a few other projects, other then project Apartment on the go in the 80's and 90's, without elaborating...
7. He seemed to indicate that he will be working on developing a turbofan as his project (as opposed to the turbojet that project Apartment is) - perhaps this will be the 6.6 kN version.
8. The reason project Apartment was terminated (even though it was showing very good promise), was that the French quickly decided to supply us with one of their own turbojets (Microturbo?), as soon as they saw that we were getting it right, they obviously thought it better to get the sale and prevent a new competitor in the micro turbo market. Apparently what we bought from the French was then used in Skua (although the accompanying sign mentions that project Apartment was as a replacement for the Skua turbojet).

Below are some pics of project Apartment model as per the show - I am not a professional photographer and battled a bit with the perspex case covering the engine, so please forgive the poor quality of my pics.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2014, 06:33:35 am by Graugrun »

Offline kaiserbill

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #85 on: September 21, 2014, 08:43:20 am »
... Apparently what we bought from the French was then used in Skua (although the accompanying sign mentions that project Apartment was as a replacement for the Skua turbojet).


Excellent post, info and pics Graugrun.
 
The info board on Project Apartment is incorrect though. The Project Apartment turbojet features in Helmoed Romer Heitmans SA Arms and Armour from 1988. The writeup also features a pic of the engine, and was posted earlier in the thread.
So it clearly dates from before "the 1990's" that the info board states.
The SAAF museum for example, in the "Aviation Projcts forum", states that Project Apartment started in 1977, and the prototypes had all been constructed by the 1980's.

 
Thanks very much for all that info.
It is a pity he wouldn't elaborate more on "the other projects" from back in the day.
We also have that engine displayed earlier, as mentioned, that is clearly more advanced than Apartment. I suppose one day info will come out regarding it.
 
It appears that they will be following a similar route to the original programme, ie: a simple turbojet and a more advanced turbofan, but with new designs.
 
I look forward with great anticipation to your following posts. ;D
« Last Edit: September 21, 2014, 08:49:23 am by kaiserbill »

Offline Graugrun

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #86 on: September 21, 2014, 11:28:19 pm »
Kaiserbill, I think the info board was also meant to be politically correct - the new government thinks that anything before the 90's is evil and incorrect, hence the referral to the 90's and not the 80's.

In the meantime here is a link to the IHS Janes article on the Raptor III - http://www.janes.com/article/43441/long-range-raptor-iii-goes-on-display-aad143

Marlin (BVRAAM) is also there, I will post it's link as well as some of my own pics of it next.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2014, 11:41:44 pm by Graugrun »

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #87 on: September 22, 2014, 11:53:42 am »
Some more info on the 100Km Marlin BVRAAM as promised - I never got to speak to the lead engineer, only overheard a little here and there. It seems to be the final iteration of a long list of attempts to get the government to fund a BVRAAM/AMRAAM type missile (S-Darter/T-Darter/B-Darter). As the Janes article mentions it will start with the first ground launch (ballistic tests) early next year. It is interesting in that it will be both an air to air, surface to air (ground launched) and surface to air (ship launched) missile - when you don't have first world budgets you've got to wring the most out of it...

The pics where rather difficult to take due to the small surrounding space and how the missiles where positioned. I tried to get a flat side pic so as to see the differences in length and diameter compared to Umkhonto and A-Darter specifically. It seems to be a bit longer than Umkhonto, and the same or similar diameter (these are just models though, so don't rely too much on their accuracy). Umkhonto's diameter is 180 mm and it's length is 3,3 m (R-Darter was 160 mm by 3,62 m and A-Darter is 166 mm by 2,98 m). There is a strong drive to get Brazil (and perhaps others) to co-fund this project, as was the case with A-Darter. Something was signed off with Brazil earlier this year, time will tell whether it relates to Marlin or not though.

The IHS Janes article in this link gives much more interesting insight though: - http://www.janes.com/article/43439/marlin-nears-first-test-aad143

Below are some of the pics I took at AAD 2014 - note the AcuFuze atop the 155mm shell in the first pic - I will cover that in the artillery section, I will also post more about the Hungwe mini drone seen in the pics in it's relevant section.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 11:58:51 am by Graugrun »

Offline kaiserbill

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #88 on: September 23, 2014, 05:12:21 am »
Thanks Graugrun.
 
How does that Impundulu BVRAAM missile that you posted on Pg3 Reply 38 fit into the scheme of things?

Offline Graugrun

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #89 on: September 23, 2014, 07:07:22 am »

How does that Impundulu BVRAAM missile that you posted on Pg3 Reply 38 fit into the scheme of things?

I was about to post something on Impundulu , I also got to speak to the lead engineer on this (still a CSIR concept/project) - it is in essence a different project (albeit low key) to project Marlin. It was halted over the past two years by the DoD as they did not want anything to clash with or duplicate project Marlin. However they have now given it the go-ahead again (still low funding and low key) as it has a very different function to the Marlin BVRAAM.

It is in fact a HARM/ALAARM type anti radiation missile. It's being worked on as the potential future threat that we might face will most likely have far more sophisticated ground/radar defences than those we faced in the Border/Angolan war. Pantsir 1 was was mentioned as among the newer defences that might need to be considered. It also has another fulfilment/requirement, however they became very coy when I asked about it - is it perhaps also meant to be a bit of an AWACS type killer? Perhaps someone else can give us more of an educated guess regards this.

The engineer was well aware of the benefits of the aero-spike projecting out of the rocket motor - as per the feedback from compton_effect  and Racer on page 3 (note the new close up pic of it that I took below), he also mentioned that the jagged edges on the fins were for stealth purposes - however he also made it very clear that he had made use of a fair bit of 'artistic/engineering license' with the model, as it is still within the concept phase at the moment. It seems that a different rocket motor could be built for it (with the aero-spike?), as well as a different body to that of Marlin.

Looking at the model it clearly is a much larger missile than A-Darter, so looks to be a fair bit bigger than Marlin too - I know it's not at all sound practice to work off of a model in terms of measurements, but then perhaps the model in this case is accurate?

The new pod now on the centerline is the new Inundu EW test, evaluation and training pod (a completed project by the same lead engineer).
« Last Edit: September 23, 2014, 07:12:37 am by Graugrun »

Offline compton_effect

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #90 on: September 23, 2014, 09:09:06 pm »
Nice one. Thanks Graugrun.
A very interesting concept. Explains the gold patches near the nose too. Probably secondary thermal imaging or special receivers.
One thing that I was curious about was the maneuverability of a aerospike nozzle. I can't imagine it having thrust vectoring. But that is not really neccessary for a HARM type missile.

Offline Graugrun

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #91 on: September 24, 2014, 12:27:39 am »
Compton_effect - I think you are correct in terms of your assesement - I also think that any current military force worth it's salt will have or want to have an AWACS killer (and general type HARM) missile within it's inventry. I suspect that we have possibley also had discrete inquires from another country/ies in terms of this capability, hence the project being resurrected.

Here is another photo that I forgot to post with those above, it's a clearer shot of the rear of the model. Looking at it again, I must say that it really is a lot larger than the Marlin BVRAAM, so it's going to be quite a missile.

Interesting that it is displayed on the Hawk, while it could just be pure coincidence - alternatively it could also speak volumes in terms of our future air warfare doctrine.

Offline kaiserbill

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #92 on: September 24, 2014, 12:40:09 am »
I must admit I hadn't considered an ARM missile.
 
It makes a lot of sense now.
Thanks Graugrun.
 
I see you say resurrected.
I take it there was a previous Anti Radiation Missile programme?

Offline Graugrun

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #93 on: September 24, 2014, 02:51:48 am »
Kaiserbill I think the first sentence or two in my post #89 answers your question.

I was not going to post these as they are both produced weapons, however perhaps particularly for foreign visitors, they might find the progression of the Raptor PGM interesting (in light of my Raptor III pics in post #82 above). As mentioned in the brochures it has been integrated onto the Mirage III, V, Cheetah and F1. Then also on the Sukhoi SU-24 (which I suspect is for Algeria). Pakistan is fairly open about them having it, see one of their squadron's paintings below clearly depicting Raptor II being  launched from one of their Mirages.

The weapon is slightly unusual in that the dropping aircraft can be different from the controlling aircraft if need be.

As per sa_bushwar's video post # 61, showing it being dropped in combat action against the Cuito bridge in Angola on 3 January 1988 (when it was then still known as the H-2). I later met someone who was on the H-2 program at the time, he said that they we very upset with the military for wrenching the H-2 out of their hands for use against the Cuito bridge when it was still very much an uncompleted prototype. This explains some of the misses they had before the near (but successful) hit they had depicted in sa_bushwar's video. A little bit of translation from the video for those who don't understand Afrikaans - they are talking about a (military) vehicle that happens to be on the bridge as the H-2 is being guided in (this could be direct feedback from a South African Special Forces operator on the ground?), at the last moment one of them says that the Bomb is going in slightly to to left of the bridge into the water. It did enough damage though, as the Russians, Cubans and Fapla could only use it for walking traffic and not for their tanks/IFV/trucks - which is exactly why we were targeting the bridge in the first place.

Very nice post BTW sa_bushwar - thanks!

BTW the reason that they had initially for many years been so cagey about H-2/Raptor, was that it was apparently also very much part of our then nuclear weapons program.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2014, 02:54:12 am by Graugrun »

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #94 on: September 24, 2014, 11:12:03 am »
Anyone noticed this small display at AAD 2014. Next generation Skua?

Offline Graugrun

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #95 on: September 25, 2014, 07:23:27 am »
sa_bushwar - Although I did not ask the direct 'Is this the Skua replacement' question, the guys I spoke to on the CSIR stand about it said that it was simply an in-house concept that they want to build to test a whole range of their new and developing technologies (as per the adjacent word board) - an obvious one would be the new turbojet/turbofan project.

Denel have stated that they are working on a Skua replacement which they refer to in-house simply as "Target 2". Who knows though, maybe this is it...

One of my own pics taken from a slightly different angle to yours.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2014, 08:08:42 am by Graugrun »

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #96 on: September 25, 2014, 07:53:35 am »
Some points I forgot to mention in my Raptor III post #82, that were told to me:

1. There are Raptor II E and F versions that differ to the II D (seekers/guidance?).
2. The reason for lowering Raptor III's weight to under 1 ton (Raptor II is 1,2 tons) is that it will dramatically open up their potential to fit and therefore ability to sell it onto many other aircraft types (it sounded like there were other/new interested parties).
3. More interestingly is that Raptor IV is going to be very much like MUPSOW or the KEPD 350 Taurus in shape (and size?).
« Last Edit: September 26, 2014, 11:44:11 pm by Graugrun »

Offline kaiserbill

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #97 on: September 26, 2014, 09:16:54 am »
So, point number 3 seems to indicate that those long range munitions, based on the MUPSOW or Torgos, are back in development?
 
Good news if it comes to fruition.

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #98 on: September 27, 2014, 09:23:53 pm »
Kaiserbill, he did not confirm that either the MUPSOW or Torgos programmes were being resurrected, however I assume at the very least they would fall back on them as reference points, since a lot of work was done on them it would be foolish not to. However I got the impression that it would be a new project and therefore different to either of them. I never got MUPSOW's brochure, just a pic of the front - see below, also my own pic taken at DEXSA 1998 IIRC - see also sa_bushwar's post #81.

MUPSOW was a pretty serious weapon from our perspective, certainly also forming part of our then nuclear weapons program and also most certainly having a range far in excess of 300km (this was developed long before our signatory and membership to the MTCR missile control regime in 1995 (max 300km range and 500Kg warhead). The seeker is (Kentron's - now Denel Dynamics's) Kenis, a light weight third generation staring focal plane array, 3-5uM thermal imager that they had developed in-house. Coupled  with ATR (Automatic Target Recognition), or more likely man in the loop/GPS/INS guidance -  this would have allowed for some pretty accurate delivery over very long distances.

No wonder this program was cancelled the moment we denounced our nuclear weapons program and dis-mantelled the 7 odd nuclear warheads we supposedly had (many say that these 7 nukes were just the tip of the proverbial iceberg).

Torgos was derived from MUPSOW - I will also cover it soon.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2014, 03:38:01 am by Graugrun »

Offline kaiserbill

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #99 on: September 28, 2014, 09:24:51 am »
Thanks Graugrun.
 
I was pretty fascinated about it the moment MUPSOW was first shown, as it was clear to me that it was, as you allude to, a more strategic type weapon of a type that the SAAF hadn't previously operated.
 
I recall in Those who had the power that there seems to have been long ranged tests conducted on what appears to have been a cruise missile type weapon. I'm operating from memory here, so might be wrong, but I seem to recall that it was in a range bracket far far exceeding 300km. I recall it possibly being done along the coast. I'm not sure whether the conclusion was that it was a Skua type before it became a drone, or something like MUPSOW.
 
Again, operating from memory here, so might be wrong.
 
Once again, you have posted some really great stuff.

Offline Graugrun

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #100 on: September 29, 2014, 10:11:32 am »
The book (Those Who Had The Power), says that it apparently was a test involving a missile being launched in 1996 from the Denel OTB range near Cape Town. Launched with two boosters, it flew east towards Port Elizabeth, maintaining a constant altitude of 6 metres (skirting the coastline - and being visually tracked/monitored the whole way), splashed down near Port Elizabeth and then was recovered from the sea.

That's just over 500km as the crow flies, however by following the coastline it would have ended up being far more than just 500km. The authors say that they were told that it "cannot fly into mountains" and also that it "cannot be picked up by radar" - reference to terrain avoidance and stealth?. Ranges were given as 1760km and 880km for the UAV version. Speculation was that it could have been one of the two Skua's modified for use in support of the Seraph (Flowchart 2) development - if true, then could this have been the very elusive Flowchart 1? Alternatively they state that it could have been the offensive version of Flowchart 2

The authors rule out MUPSOW as per the above, even though they acknowledge MUPSOW had also been tested in the same year.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2014, 01:30:04 pm by Graugrun »

Offline Graugrun

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #101 on: September 30, 2014, 08:42:07 am »
I found it interesting that MUPSOW remained a secret until a British requirement for for a conventional stand-off missile materialised, suddenly MUPSOW was out in the open and initially formed part of the bidding process. Herewith some more info on MUPSOW- in the form of two articles, the first from Flight International 30 Nov-6 Dec 1994 indicating that Kentron (now Denel Dynamics)would be proposing a modular PGM weapon for the RAF's Air 1236 staff requirement. I doubt it was Torgos on offer, it was only revealed at the Dubai 2000 airshow in November 1999.

The next article from Janes Defence Weekly 22-07-1995, eight months later now states that Kentron has teamed up with GEC-Marconi Dynamics with it's Pegasus bid for SR Air 1236, as Kentron would not be able to meet the 100% offset requirement (proposing MUPSOW?), so instead opted for a sub-contractor role. More interesting is that it mentions that Kentron's role on Pegasus would most likely be structural and propulsion related.

So was Project Apartement and any other mini turbojet/turbofan projects a lot more advanced/complete than what has been revealed in public (even to date?).

Offline Graugrun

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #102 on: September 30, 2014, 08:58:11 am »
Although I originally posted this in the SA aviation thread, it being a small and expendable gas turbine it actually belongs here in the SA missile/PGM thread - also as reference to the above post.

Also unlike my post #84 above, this looks possibly like a working version.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2014, 09:04:08 am by Graugrun »

Offline kaiserbill

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #103 on: September 30, 2014, 10:20:11 am »
So is 1994 the first time MUPSOW was made public?
 
On the propulsion question, the only thing I can do is post again what I did on the Aviation Projects forum.
It is from Air Report 1994, and is from the chapter "Home Grown" that dealt with indigineous projects.
 
The picture description below, which I've bolded the interesting part:
 
Quote

"Although initially designed for military aviation use, this Gas Turbine may be used as an electricity supply generator for rural areas."

It is clearly a more advanced engine than the Apartment turbojets shown before.
Unfortunately, this is the only picture I've ever seen of it, and silence seems to have descended onto it after it was displayed.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2014, 12:41:13 am by kaiserbill »

Offline kaiserbill

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #104 on: September 30, 2014, 10:31:56 am »
Another interesting section of the "Home Grown" section:
 
Quote

"....in the mid-1970's when Armscor sponsored technology development areas through the CSIR's National Institute of Defence Research (NIDR). The first project was to develop a sea-skimming missile called "Project X". The projects emphasis was not so much on producing the missile, but in assessing local capabilities and expertise in the avionics and flight control and guidance fields."

Bear in mind that many projects were strictly classified still in 1994, and those that had something known about them were often subjected to deliberate misinformation.
In fact, some projects from that era still are...

Offline Graugrun

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #105 on: October 01, 2014, 12:33:19 am »
I believe MUPSOW was first revealed in 1994 - in relation to the RAF requirement - the one pic I took above was perhaps from DEXSA 1996 then - I will have to do some checking to find out.

You are quite correct about the turbofan development, I have also not been able to find out anything more on it... (perhaps the Americans insisted that the project be dismantled and records/info destroyed, as part of us coming clean getting rid of our Nuclear weapons/MRBM and ICBMs)

Below a pic of MUPSOW during testing (captive carry, flutter and drop tests IIRC).
« Last Edit: October 01, 2014, 12:37:08 am by Graugrun »

Offline Graugrun

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #106 on: October 03, 2014, 12:20:30 am »
There has been a fair deal of speculation over the years that a further developed, or more advanced version of MUPSOW found it's way into Pakistan's hands, manifesting in the form of the Hatf-VII Babur missile (although it could have also come from US Tomahawks that accidentally crash landed in Pakistan) and the later Hatf-VIII RA'AD cruise missile - and/or we assisted them to develop these cruise missiles.

Babur was first tested in 2005 (ground launch I think), RA'AD was first test fired in Aug 2007 (ground) and air test launched in May 2008, it carries a450Kg He warhead, or alternatively a 10-35Kt Nuclear warhead. over a distance of 350Km - Both missiles ability to also target naval targets is mentioned - sounds very similar to MUPSOW (and Torgos)

It's quite possible, as we did indeed sell air-air missiles to them (some say including ToT to locally manufacture the R-Darter) and then of course Raptor 1 and 2. Our long worked on Marlin AMRAAM was also offered to them when it was still T-Darter.

There is the feeling by various sources that they will purchase our A-Darter once it is in production (not sure if it will be ours or Brazil's sale though).

Offline Graugrun

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #107 on: October 03, 2014, 12:05:16 pm »
Just found this - article from Janes IDR 02-1999

Offline Graugrun

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #108 on: October 03, 2014, 08:29:57 pm »
This is Torgos, derived from MUPSOW, there was interest from a few parties, including once again Pakistan. It seemed to have been shelved due to there being no buyers and due to local budget cuts. It is possible that it (or it's technology) was sold and a far more developed version is being produced under license elsewhere. As well as a precision, high value target weapon, it was also strongly touted as being an anti ship weapon (was this due to Pakistan seeing it as also fulfilling the role of anti-shipping weapon for them?)

Link to Flight Global article - dated 1999: http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/south-africa39s-denel-reveals-saaf39s-torgos-long-range-guided-58815/

Article below courtesy of JDW 24-11-1999

Anyone know more about this project - got any more pics?

Offline kaiserbill

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #109 on: October 04, 2014, 01:17:20 am »
Thanks Graugrun.
 
I must admit that previously I was a little confused as to the relationaship between MUPSOW and Torgos.
 
Was Torgos a refinement or replacement for MUPSOW, etc.
 
Now though, seeing the article state that 2 Torgos could be touted on wing pylons by single engined aircraft such as the Mirage 2000 and F-16 (and by extension, the SAAF's Mirage/Cheetah/Carver) I'm beginning to understand the Torgos as a smaller, lighter (albeit later) complement to the heavier MUPSOW.

Offline Graugrun

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #110 on: October 04, 2014, 10:02:34 pm »
Kaiserbill it is often referred to as a refinement or further development of MUPSOW - I guess it's then meant to be it's replacement, however maybe it's compliment too. They certainly also promoted it as an anti ship weapon (ship to ship and surface to ship?), much more than the odd mention that they made of MUPSOW being able to fulfill the anti-ship role.

BTW I'm sure I read that both MUPSOW and Torgos were also tested and intended to be ground launched via a zero-zero launcher, exactly as Skua is launched. So certainly the shore to ship role could be fulfilled.

Below is another small pic off the web showing Torgos from a slightly different angle - I'm sure it was on display at one or more of the DEXSA shows, however I never took any decent photos, nor got a brochure - pity as nowadays it's rather hard to find good pics of it...
« Last Edit: October 05, 2014, 07:07:13 am by Graugrun »

Offline Graugrun

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #111 on: October 06, 2014, 07:29:47 am »
From the high tech to the very low tech - a boosted bomb for use in the toss-bombing fashion that the SAAF pilots used during the Angolan/Border War (toss-bombing as described on Pg # 1 of this thread) - instead of the 8km's that they got on average, they could now get 16km's - and keep further out of range of the massive amounts of sophisticated Soviet anti-aircraft equipment surrounding the target - that lay in waiting for them.

Might not make sense to other Airforces - but it made sense to us (as a poor man's 'glide' bomb...).
« Last Edit: October 06, 2014, 07:31:32 am by Graugrun »

Offline compton_effect

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #112 on: October 06, 2014, 10:41:35 am »
There's nothing wrong with low tech meeting high.
Cover that bomb with RAM Material, add in some new generation inertial navigation like they are working on for artillery shells, and you'd have a devastating low observable weapon on the cheap.

Offline Abraham Gubler

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #113 on: October 06, 2014, 08:32:56 pm »
Might not make sense to other Airforces - but it made sense to us (as a poor man's 'glide' bomb...).


There were a few sort of similar concepts to boost range for toss bombing from the UK and USA. The Barne Wallis 'Momentum Bomb' which was nearly built as the Bristol Tychon in the early 60s. It combined both wings and an internal rocket motor and was designed for achieving the toss bomb effect without the aircraft needing to toss the bomb (though it could do that as well for longer ranges).


The US Navy in the 80s added a rocket motor to the Paveway LGB to make the Skipper for some better standoff.


But the SAAF Mk 82s with preformed fragments and the internal motor (Sidewinder/Valkari?) option look like a pretty excellent customised solution combined with the F1AZ. Be interesting to see how its dispersion was at 16km with the F1AZ limited to about six bombs over combat ranges.
"There is a tendency in our planning to confuse the unfamiliar with the improbable." Thomas Schelling

Offline Graugrun

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #114 on: October 07, 2014, 07:02:17 am »
Thanks for the input/info compton_effect and Abraham Gubler - we specificaly adopted toss-bombing as a means of delivering munitions onto heavily defended targets in Angola out of necessity (see post #1). With a world-wide arms embargo, and therefore no chance of us obtaining any sort of smart bomb in a hurry -  and facing thousands of Cuban/Russian and various other troops with their air defences in Angola, we still had to get the bombs delivered onto the target.

During the 23 year 'Border War', most often our when our troops did larger raids they operated deep into enemy territory (350 Km plus) with no or very limited air-cover, so when we hit a major base and or there was a call for some sort of air intervention, it really was desperately needed!

Abraham - IIRC it was stated that our pilots got it down to a 200m X 200m bomb spread on target 8km's away - not sure on 16 km's with the added rocket dispersion effect what it would be.

Another version of this 'simple type bomb' update was also made in terms of something called a 'Super Stop' IIRC - it had a parachute attached and was designed to penetrate a runway (or other strategic area) going only a third of the way into the ground (with the back half sticking out almost upright). It had a delayed action and movement sensitive fuze - thus they littered the runway denied aircraft access (both by being a physical obstacle sticking out of the ground, as well a blowing up if touched/tampered with). This made clearing up of them very difficult and since they also delay detonated over a period of days they caused further psychological effect. With the fuze being buried underground, it was not as simple as shooting at them from a distance to set them all off - you would have to pretty much shell your own runway to get rid of them in a hurry...Simple but effective.

The downfall would be that the delivering aircraft had to almost fly over the runway to deliver them - a rather hazardous activity - I'm sure that's why it was also not adopted.

« Last Edit: October 07, 2014, 07:23:40 am by Graugrun »

Offline compton_effect

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #115 on: October 07, 2014, 07:44:03 am »
I remember seeing a model of the Super Stop at DEXA '94. Nasty thing, the cutaway model had a layer of steel balls for shrapnel.
(Still wish I'd had a camera back then. They were very relaxed at that show. I even climbed on top of the TTD to watch the big screen from the Loatla weapons demonstrations.)

Offline Graugrun

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #116 on: October 07, 2014, 10:33:50 pm »
You're right compton_effect - in fact in terms of the steel balls, it seems pretty much most of our bomb and rocket warheads were made with layers of steel balls in an epoxy resin of sorts - much increased lethality (see product info below).

I remember the parachute on the Reutech Superstop (ADBS-145) area denial bomb, however I forgot about the rocket - so it was toss-bombed with the rocket increasing the tossing range, the a parachute deployed ensuring that it impacted at a fairly high angle into the runway (70-90 degrees), thus causing an immediate runway obstruction and allowing for the greatest spread of the steel balls on detonation. The delayed action fuse could be set anywhere within a 150 hour time limit and as mentioned it had anti-tamper properties too.

I used to have the brochure, however over the 20 odd years of collecting brochures, every couple of years I had 'purged' some them as they started taking up too much space. Unfortunately I often got rid of the more obscure and unusual stuff, just like the Superstop bomb, which is a real pity as a lot of what I got rid of would have been perfect and very interesting for this forum...!

I have been trying to re-find info on a lot of what I threw away, as many of the unusual stuff was quite unique, showed clear 'out of the box' thinking on our part and often would have been really successful if deployed.

One of them for instance was the 'Vermin' or 'Platter' bomb - I now only have one or two small fuzzy pictures of it - a very interesting bomb/missile - I will post some on it soon and hopefully someone else can add some more pics and info on it.

Back to the Superstop ADBS-145 though - a link from Flight Global (1997):  http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/reutech-area-denial-13760/

Better info and a pic at this link - SA Airforce unofficial site: http://www.saairforce.co.za/the-airforce/weapons/60/superstop-adbs-145-bomb
« Last Edit: October 07, 2014, 11:08:57 pm by Graugrun »

Offline Graugrun

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #117 on: October 09, 2014, 05:57:29 am »
Some more pics of MUPSOW - note the two sub-munitions dangling above it, I have never seen them before and they also look like they represent some of what MUPSOW could deliver (Sub-munitions have often been mentioned as it's primary weapon of delivery).

There are a few other interesting items in the room, one being the FAE (Fuel Air Explosive) bomb, standing upright to the rear of MUPSOW, highlighted against the window, painted in black and light grey 'checks' as such, with both small yellow and purple rings around the top. Those who have the book "Those Who had the Power" should recognize it from there. The FAE is a weapon that we have been rather secretive about...
« Last Edit: October 09, 2014, 05:59:21 am by Graugrun »

Offline kaiserbill

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #118 on: October 09, 2014, 06:11:18 am »
Excellent, those are the clearest pics of the MUPSOW (inert demonstrator/aerodynamic test vehicle) I've seen yet.
 
I recall the FAE bomb photo from the book. The one which is in the process of exploding..
If I recall correctly, it was a small pic, relatively indistinct.
I'd assumed it was a generic pic.
I'll have to look through the book again this weekend.
 
What is very interesting, Graugrun, is that many of your posts/brochures are bearing out much of what was in the book, but which was written in a sort of "conjecture" style, which apparently was how it had to be revised to satisfy people before it could be printed.
Some of it is out there, a lot is not, but the clues are. It's all about piecing the parts together......

Offline Graugrun

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #119 on: October 10, 2014, 11:50:37 am »
So is 1994 the first time MUPSOW was made public?


Apologies - late 1995, see Janes Defence Weekly article below with date at bottom of page included - so I must have then first seen it at DEXSA 1996...

What can I say - old age and memory don't go well together!

Offline Graugrun

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #120 on: October 11, 2014, 03:23:59 am »
Taking advantage of the fact that this is still a prototype (production will only start in 2015), here is some info on the A-Darter AAM.

First mentioned in late 1994 as being about two years away from development - and then finally revealed in mid 1997, it languished on the back-burner for many years until a joint development contract was signed with Brazil in 2006.

Targets can designated by the aircraft's radar, pilot's helmet sight or autonomously using the A-Darter's own auto-scan feature (which apparently is extremely fast and precise, locking onto targets in just one scan 98% of the time). Little is published about it's range, however one or two reports mention 25 km's. Thrust vectoring and helmet sight designation naturally allow for over the shoulder shots - a high sensitivity  two colour thermal imaging seeker includes a multimode ECCM suite. High off-boresight capability (90 degrees IIRC) and very low smoke and launch signature (much more difficult for the aircraft being attacked to realise a AAM has been launched against him - note launch pic in brochure below).

Various smart digital processing allows improved performance in terms of image detection, ECCM, false target rejection and guidance and control. The feedback from the Swedish test Gripen pilots who tested it and who are very familiar with IRIS-T was that it had some benefits over IRIS-T and is a actually "a very cool missile".

That's all good and well though AFAIC, it needs to be battle tested to really prove itself and determine how good it really is. For example we learnt a few lessons in that regard during our Border War - take the French Magic AAM we had used (amongst others), it showed a clear tendency to constantly detonate prematurely about 10 meters or so behind the exhaust plume of of the target aircraft (as a couple of our gun camera photos testify to - as soon as I re-find them I will post) - a couple of Cuban/Russian Mig 23 pilots can thank their lucky stars for that!

An interesting link with pics to some of our air-air encounters/combat with the Russians/Cubans in Angola here: http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_184.shtml

Further envisaged development include a A-Darter light, A-Darter Extended Range, and a ASM version. There are also projects to develop an A-Darter Mk2 and later a Mk3.

Below is an earlier brochure (before Brazil joined) and a later one - the later development has shorter strakes and four small fins near the seeker nose.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2014, 03:27:24 am by Graugrun »

Offline Graugrun

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #121 on: October 16, 2014, 01:18:52 pm »
Early test launch of A-Darter using U-Darter's motor as a booster (non guided flight - validating various of it's basic aerodynamic aspects).
« Last Edit: October 16, 2014, 01:21:16 pm by Graugrun »

Offline Graugrun

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #122 on: October 19, 2014, 07:34:24 am »
Just a snippet from the latest CSIR brochure (2014) on their recently restarted mini turbine engine development/projects (mostly for cruise missile/PGM purposes).
« Last Edit: October 19, 2014, 07:35:59 am by Graugrun »

Offline Graugrun

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #123 on: October 24, 2014, 10:35:14 am »
Two small pics depicting early concepts of the Denel Dynamics (formally Kentron) Umbani PGM, The 3rd pic shows a much later prototype under the wing of a SAAF Hawk. This later evolved a bit more and has now been re-branded the Al-Tariq (and will be manufactured jointly in and with the UAE).
« Last Edit: October 25, 2014, 10:55:32 pm by Graugrun »

Offline Graugrun

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #124 on: November 04, 2014, 06:48:25 am »
Another missile that I am taking advantage of (it's finally just going into production). It's another one that's been languishing around for many, many years... The Mokopa (Sotho for the Mamba snake). It was developed as our version of the US Hellfire missile (including being the exact same 178mm diameter), as we had very little chance then of getting Hellfire for our Rooivalk attack Helicopters.

It's range is a little greater then Hellfire I believe (now up to 10 km IIRC) but currently only uses a semi-active laser homing seeker. Right from the start though it was intended to be modular in terms of having both mmW and IIR seekers, as well as tandem, fragmentation and penetration warheads. My understanding is that AMS, (who developed the 'BARB' boosted anti-radiation bomb as per the first page in this thread), where quite far advanced with the mmW (millimeter wave) seeker development around 1992.

The reason it's finally heading for production is that the Algerian navy have chosen it to equip their newly purchased navy Lynx helicopters (or are they Wildcats?). These will be deployed from their newly purchased German Meko 200 AN frigates.

The Algerian purchase (and therefore production) may at last also pave the way for us to get them equipped and integrated on the Rooivalks.

Article from Janes IDR July 1999 - note the very low signature (smokeless) launch - I've also attached pics of two different target strikes during early tests, in which it seems to be rather accurate.

Offline Graugrun

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #125 on: November 06, 2014, 08:12:42 am »
A pic of Mokopa being launched from Rooivalk (many years ago) - note once again the very low launch signature. I'm sure this was part of the initial basic testing, just for aerodynamic/separation purposes. They have now completed full loop testing (guided) from Rooivalk, although I believe they made use of a ground based laser designator (as the missile is not yet fully integrated with Rooivalk..?). The other two scans include the front of an old brochure and the rear of a newer one. 

Offline Graugrun

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #126 on: November 08, 2014, 10:10:30 pm »
Some pics I took of Mokopa at some of the AAD shows, giving a rough idea of Mokopa's size compared to the laser beam riding Ingwe missile (TOW equivalent), Ingwe's probe houses the precursor HEAT charge, Mokopa has a built in precursor HEAT charge to defeat reactive armour plates.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2014, 10:27:35 pm by Graugrun »

Offline Graugrun

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #127 on: November 10, 2014, 08:02:10 am »
Two pics of an earlier model of the project Marlin AMRAAM, shown at the LAAD 2013 defence show in Brazil, the 3rd pic is the latest model shown at AAD 2014. The later model has an elongated nose section, a sharper nose and it's mid fins are more angled back - just the model maker's interpretation or a true reflection of it's developmental progress...?

Offline sa_bushwar

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #128 on: December 04, 2014, 09:04:23 am »
Short history of the development of the air-to-air heat seeking missiles in South Africa, leading to the worlds first successful helmet slaved missile, the V3B.

Offline Matt R.

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #129 on: December 31, 2014, 07:37:25 am »
Nice pics Kaiserbill,

I had read some Somchen brochure in the past that stated that the very first picture you posted was in fact one of Somchen's ramjet artillery designs, it worked as a sort sabot within a 155mm artillery shell, sacrificing payload (size and therefore HE filling) for extreme range (for an artillery shell). It was all part of the 'Loosvoor' (Well-ahead) artillery program, unfortunately AFAIK it was not developed further for either practicality or funding reasons - hopefully someone can fill us in some more on this very interesting and perhaps unique project (pictured again below)

As of November 2011, research of SFRJ artillery projectiles was still alive, apparently under a programme named "Project Cloud". See for instance : Cloud Takes A Step Forward.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2014, 07:39:46 am by Matt R. »

Offline Matt R.

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #130 on: December 31, 2014, 08:23:50 am »
Some further info on the South African artillery ramjet projectiles, with some pics and windtunnel results.

One more paper on the subject : NUMERICAL MODEL FOR ANALYSIS AND SPECIFICATION OF A RAMJET PROPELLED ARTILLERY PROJECTILE

Offline sa_bushwar

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #131 on: January 18, 2015, 07:15:12 am »
Voorslag prototype?

Offline sa_bushwar

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #132 on: February 01, 2015, 03:53:56 am »
Ever seen a Impala MkII with a V3B AA missile?

Offline curious george

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #133 on: February 02, 2015, 10:24:16 am »
Saw them deployed at Rundu AFB in '87 with AAM's,which I assume to be Matra's.

Offline kaiserbill

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #134 on: February 02, 2015, 10:58:16 am »
I think the Impala 2 did a bit of disimilar air combat training.


I recall reading something along the lines that they could be a handful if operated by a skilled pilot.


2 more pics below, over Langebaanweg on the West Coast, where a lot of exercises were done.

Note the underwing flare/chaff dispensors, and RwR on the wing tip tanks...
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 11:01:04 am by kaiserbill »

Offline Bill Walker

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #135 on: February 02, 2015, 05:33:56 pm »
A work colleague of mine, former SAAF Flight Test, has told me that the AAM installation on the Impala was developed very quickly in the last half of the 1980s, in order to counter Hinds encountered over one of the northern neighbours of SA.
Bill Walker

Offline kaiserbill

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #136 on: February 03, 2015, 02:06:30 am »
That would make sense, Bill.


There was that operation in 1985 that downed 6 helicopters (4 Hinds and 2 Mi-17's) over southern Angola using the Impala, but those were carried out using the twin 30mm DEFA cannon in the end.


http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_183.shtml


I think the Impala was used on CAP over the border region, so I suppose it would make sense to equip them with a better weapon for potential anti-helicopter operations.

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #137 on: February 10, 2015, 08:37:42 am »
Rooivalk prototype seen in 1994 on a visit to Port Elizabeth. Fitted with a V3B AA missile. The Rooivalk attack helicopter developed into mainly a ground attack and fire support machine. Does anyone know if the AA capability was developed further and integrated into the production model operated by 16 Sqn in Bloemfontein?

Offline sa_bushwar

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #138 on: February 13, 2015, 04:59:50 am »
Rooivalk prototype seen in 1994 on a visit to Port Elizabeth. Fitted with a V3B AA missile. The Rooivalk attack helicopter developed into mainly a ground attack and fire support machine. Does anyone know if the AA capability was developed further and integrated into the production model operated by 16 Sqn in Bloemfontein?

Another early Rooivalk prototype (seen here in 1996) with the V3B AA missile. Production Rooivalk does not have a weapons hard point on the end of the stubby wings.

Note the difference between the engine intakes (debris filters) and the heat suppression on the engine outlets of these 2 prototypes. Further differences are in the prototype instrumentation on the nose, and antennas below the tail.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 08:00:43 am by sa_bushwar »

Offline Graugrun

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #140 on: February 13, 2015, 08:18:28 am »
Rooivalk prototype seen in 1994 on a visit to Port Elizabeth. Fitted with a V3B AA missile. The Rooivalk attack helicopter developed into mainly a ground attack and fire support machine. Does anyone know if the AA capability was developed further and integrated into the production model operated by 16 Sqn in Bloemfontein?

Another early Rooivalk prototype (seen here in 1996) with the V3B AA missile. Production Rooivalk does not have a weapons hard point on the end of the stubby wings.

Note the difference between the engine intakes (debris filters) and the heat suppression on the engine outlets of these 2 prototypes. Further differences are in the prototype instrumentation on the nose, and antennas below the tail.

And another view...

Offline Graugrun

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #141 on: February 24, 2015, 05:19:18 am »
Just a quick update on the Impi missile - now being called the 'Impi-S' - it's pictured under the wing of the Denel Seeker 400 armed UAV (armed version being designated as the 'Snyper'). According to the article 4 X Impi-S missile can be carried, still allowing for 40Kg's worth of an Optronics package. With a total carrying weight of 100 Kg for the Seeker 400, this means the Impi-S missile must weigh about 15 Kg's each.

Once again there is confirmation that it is derived from components of the Mokopa  and Ingwe missiles. It looks rather different from the first Impi missile mock-up first displayed under the wing of a mock-up Seeker 400 at one of the AAD shows a few years ago.

It seems that the Impi-S is finally being fully developed - attached pic is from the article.

http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=38129:weaponised-seeker-400-debuts-at-idex&catid=35:Aerospace&Itemid=107

Offline panzerskool

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Cape Vidal Missile Test Range


As a kid in the late 70's or very early 80's we spent a week up in Cape Vidal and i remember being stopped on the Beach North of Cape Vidal by army guys which must have been around the old missile test range. Does anyone know anything about this now demolished site which was used for many surface test of rockets and missiles between 1968 when it was opened and 1997 when it was demolished ?

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Cape Vidal Missile Test Range


As a kid in the late 70's or very early 80's we spent a week up in Cape Vidal and i remember being stopped on the Beach North of Cape Vidal by army guys which must have been around the old missile test range. Does anyone know anything about this now demolished site which was used for many surface test of rockets and missiles between 1968 when it was opened and 1997 when it was demolished ?

Used as an Artillery test range. Have seen pictures of the G5 and Valkiri being tested here.

Offline panzerskool

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read an environmental report on the area and how they have found lots of unexploded munitions over the years. Its not the flattest type of range like Lohatla or Potch but maybe mimicked the Angolan thick bush of Southern Angola.


Not much written anywhere about places like this or Rooi els or silver[size=78%]mine etc which is a shame as a lost generation of information will never be known (like Carva )[/size]

Offline kaiserbill

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Speaking about coastal test ranges....


I was googling a while back, and came across this:


http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC2MNEF_jericho-2?guid=12dc8bfd-f491-48a2-a2c4-61e422fc69ad


It seems to be some sort of "search" site for members edification.


Either way, just past halfway down the page, after this description below, the poster placed these attachments that I've attached below.
You can view them on the site too.
It is to do with the RSA Ballistic Missile.
I obviously can't verify the authenticity of these.
Does this look genuine?


Quote
During a return visit to Houwteq some years later, I found a local University giving a handful of Central African students some very basic electronics training on equipment that was capable of so much more. I walked through the development areas of the facility and found myself in the remote HRO area. Most of the equipment had been removed from this area and the room was basically derelict. In the corner was an old filing cabinet. In it I found some old documentation pertaining to the launch of RSA-1 and RSA-2. I have attached it as additional data.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 01:01:32 am by kaiserbill »

Offline kaiserbill

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The second attachment seems to imply a range reached of 1600km when the vehicle was still at an altitude of just over 250km.
It also seems to show on another graph that there was a seperate second acceleration 300 seconds after launch.


I was under the impression that released information stated that only "a booster was tested, splashing down in the South Atlantic after 1500km" to paraphrase what is out there.
This though seems to imply that there were 2 stages, and that the altitude was still 250km after 1600km was reached.


Unless I have it all wrong?
Ballistic missiles aren't my forte.


Certainly though, I see what was meant when I've seen it intimated (in books and by people I've conversed with) that the missile/nuclear/space programme was a whole lot further evolved than the official line that was spun by the politicians when it was all ended.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2015, 01:42:54 am by kaiserbill »

Offline TomS

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Geocaching is a sort of game where one person hides a box or marker and then provides clues so others can find it.  Sometimes the clues are simple, sometimes they are quite elaborate. In this case, it seems quite involved and I believe a lot of the story is a series of obfuscated clues. I would not have a lot of confidence in those documents.  The "FAX" for example is in a code of some sort and is probably another clue.  The graphs may well be clues too, rather than actual historical documents.

Offline sa_bushwar

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The second attachment seems to imply a range reached of 1600km when the vehicle was still at an altitude of just over 250km.
It also seems to show on another graph that there was a seperate second acceleration 300 seconds after launch.


I was under the impression that released information stated that only "a booster was tested, splashing down in the South Atlantic after 1500km" to paraphrase what is out there.
This though seems to imply that there were 2 stages, and that the altitude was still 250km after 1600km was reached.


Unless I have it all wrong?
Ballistic missiles aren't my forte.


Certainly though, I see what was meant when I've seen it intimated (in books and by people I've conversed with) that the missile/nuclear/space programme was a whole lot further evolved than the official line that was spun by the politicians when it was all ended.

Here is another graphical representation of a typical 3-stage launch sequence of the RSA3; - delivering a satellite to space or a warhead over long distance?

Offline sa_bushwar

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Anybody knows what this is? Seen at SAAF museum Zwartkops on a barrier chain preventing vehicular access to a certain area.

Offline Jemiba

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Maybe related to towed targets ?
->  http://www.sphaera.co.uk/secapem.htm
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline TomS

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Yes, a towed target.  Here's an ad being sold on eBay with a drawing of the gizmo:
 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/9-1978-PUB-SFENA-GUNNERY-TRAINING-SFENA-14-SECAPEM-S-90B-TARGET-CIBLE-MIRAGE-AD-/300907000201
 
Known in the US as the A/A37U-33.  Here's a page for its successor (which references the older system by name):
 
https://www.meggittdefense.com/index.php/agts-36-aerial-gunnery-target-system
 
 
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 04:31:03 pm by flateric »

Offline sa_bushwar

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Yes, a towed target.  Here's an ad being sold on eBay with a drawing of the gizmo:
 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/9-1978-PUB-SFENA-GUNNERY-TRAINING-SFENA-14-SECAPEM-S-90B-TARGET-CIBLE-MIRAGE-AD-/300907000201
 
Known in the US as the A/A37U-33.  Here's a page for its successor (which references the older system by name):
 
https://www.meggittdefense.com/index.php/agts-36-aerial-gunnery-target-system

Thanks for clarification!

Offline Graugrun

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Although this IHS/Janes article is more concerned with the potential sale to South Korea of the Umbani/Al-Tariq PGM - is also covers some future developments and iterations, thus I have added this link for those who may be interested.

http://www.janes.com/article/50940/denel-south-korea-in-talks-to-integrate-al-tariq-bomb-kit-on-fa-50s
« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 11:13:18 pm by Graugrun »

Offline curious george

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*off f/book,circa Dec'87/Jan'88


Offline curious george

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #156 on: January 15, 2016, 12:02:39 pm »
*off fb

"May 1988: The Mirage F1AZ became part of the H2 weapon system after the bush war was over. Here we see a 1 Sqn Mirage F1AZ - 242 at Upington during the 3rd H2 bomb trails camp held there together with the Buccaneers of 24 Sqn, loaded with an H2 Bomb under the belly and an H2 communications pod under the starboard wing."

Offline kaiserbill

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #157 on: January 18, 2016, 12:37:59 am »
That is interesting, earlier than I thought for the Mirage F1.
Thanks CG.

Note the black antennae for the RWR just behind the laser housing and near the tip of the vertical tail, which was part of the RIMS (Radar and Infra Red Misleading system) that was fitted near the end. Other parts of the system can't be seen from this angle however.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2016, 12:48:40 am by kaiserbill »

Offline sa_bushwar

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #158 on: February 02, 2016, 04:12:00 am »
From: http://www.africandefence.net/rheinmetall-denel-defence-day-in-pictures/

A South African Air Force (SAAF) Hawk armed with the Al Tariq long range guided munition performs a low altitude fly past before going weapons hot.

Offline Graugrun

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #159 on: February 23, 2016, 06:34:33 am »
Another update, this time on Umkhonto's (SAM) nose cone developments, allowing for extended range, I would assume this would also keep the glass domed (or sapphire crystal) seeker nose much cooler, thus improving detection range and accuracy once it's active - it has not yet been fully developed or tested, so I thought I would post it here.

Interesting that by using interns etc, it's only cost them about $ 9000.00 to develop it thus far!

http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=42458:denel-dynamics-develops-expendable-nose-cone-to-increase-missile-range&catid=7:Industry&Itemid=116


Offline Dodger67

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The "simple" CLOS version of the Umkhonto shown earler in this topic is basically a "repackaging" of the original SAHV 1980s development programme as a Cactus/Crotale replacement, that gave rise to the Umkhonto SAM family.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2016, 05:03:11 am by Dodger67 »

Offline sa_bushwar

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Denel Brochure of the Seraph High Speed Stealth Drone concept, that was as far as I know only taken to small scale mock-up stage. Time frame est. early 1990's.

Offline jsport

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Denel Brochure of the Seraph High Speed Stealth Drone concept, that was as far as I know only taken to small scale mock-up stage. Time frame est. early 1990's.

wow, thanks for posting :)

Offline kaiserbill

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Very interesting.

The Seraph obviously morphed and developed from the Flowchart 2 UAV, which can be seen below. From memory, this was a project that was first publically displayed in the early '90's. I've no recollection what the original Flowchart UAV (1?) was.

Edit: Just having a look at  my library, and it seems Flowchart 2 was first pubically revealed in 1994 (so obviously stemming from the years earlier), with the Seraph from around 1995.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2016, 01:25:42 pm by kaiserbill »

Offline kaiserbill

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More interesting is the second page of that pdf attachment...the picture marked Seraph 2.
I had these images on my PC for quite a while, simply marked as Seraph. No idea where I got them.
I had thought it was simply someones arty depiction of the Seraph, but that pic in the second attachment is exactly the same, so clearly it is official artwork of a Mark 2 version.

Edit: And a third artists depiction.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2016, 01:38:44 pm by kaiserbill »

Offline Graugrun

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #165 on: September 09, 2016, 09:57:17 am »
Although this post is perhaps not strictly within the realms of this webpage, I hope that Admin don't mind me posting it anyway...

In terms of missile updates, SAAB (Sweden) has just announced that they have completed the integration of their top selling Giraffe radar (range?) with the Umkhonto missile (pictured). It's significant as the Giraffe family of radars have been extremely successful and include within the 25 odd users countries, the likes of the USA (as the AN/SPS-77(V) 1 series installed on their new Littoral Class Combat Ships), Canada, the UK and France.

I would assume that the biggest reason this was done is due to the Algerian navies new MEKO-A200 class of frigates, which are both being supplied with the Sea Giraffe AMD G band 3-D radars and Umkhonto air defence missiles. Or is it as a result of the future South African GBAD ground based air defence requirements?

No matter the reason it should provide a significant boost to the attractiveness and therefore sale-ability of the Umkhonto missile. The Umkhonto missile itself appears to be on a constant upgrade path, as per the article I posted above relating to the nose cone development, although not always massive upgrades, they rather seem to be a series of steady smaller upgrades and incremental improvements, which will hopefully maintain it's relevance and lethality on the global market.

That is until 'Project Marlin' takes over, or compliments it...?

http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/article/swedish-and-sa-defence-groups-create-joint-anti-air-system-from-their-products-2016-09-09
« Last Edit: September 09, 2016, 08:00:05 pm by Graugrun »

Offline Graugrun

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #166 on: September 30, 2016, 09:16:51 am »
Okay - some updates from the AAD2016 show... First off is the Umkhonto EIR (extended range) prototype.

The main aim is obviously extended range, moving from the current missile (who's range has already been extended twice, from 12 Km to 15 Km and then on to 20 Km), the second objective was to develop and incorporate a newly developed dual pulse rocket motor (DPRM). The third objective was to update and refine many of the of the electronic sub-components (mostly to gain the benefit of reduced size, weight and power requirements of newer electronic components etc).

The missile is now longer by about 40cm (whereas the previous range extensions were completed with no alteration to the missile's dimensions), taking its length from 3,32 meters odd to nearly 3,7 meters. This still fits comfortably within the current ship launched containers, whose internal length is about 4.5 meters.

This now takes it's maximum range out to 30 Km and adds the flexibility of activating the 2nd stage DPRM to suite the engagement scenario - higher speed to shorten flight to to a closer target, or extending the range out to the full 30 Km.

The new rocket motor also increases the EIR missile's speed to Mach 2.7, as apposed to the standard Umkhonto's Mach 2.2. The large 23 kg warhead size for a missile of this class is retained.

Apparently this development is being pushed more for the GBADS requirements, rather then a naval one. In terms of further range extensions, once the nose cone being developed comes into play, it will add at least another 5 Km's, taking the EIR to 35 Km's plus. Also once developed, the 'old' Umkhonto will cease to exist and the new EIR will become the standard Umkhonto offering (and replacement for existing Umkhonto users).

Mock-up missile is pictured in front of the GBADS truck mounted land launcher.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2016, 10:24:50 am by Graugrun »

Offline Graugrun

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #167 on: October 06, 2016, 09:56:18 am »
Comparisons of the standard Umkhonto and the still being developed Umkhonto EIR (extended range).

Offline Graugrun

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #168 on: October 06, 2016, 09:58:41 am »
Just scanned the two cutaways in a much larger format for better comparison.

Offline JakobS

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #169 on: November 07, 2016, 04:45:04 pm »
Some great info about the Umkhonto-EIR!

Is there any info at all about what they are thinking with the Umkhonto-R? Or is it that going to be handled by the Marlin in SAM-mode?

Offline sa_bushwar

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #170 on: November 23, 2016, 09:09:04 am »
Prototype Voorslag missile history.

Offline sa_bushwar

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Kentron SAHV-3 mockup? missile installation on Cactus platform seen here in 1992.

Offline 61mech

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The top box looks like it was cut in half.
I've seen this on SAHV mockups before. Anyone know why ?

Offline Graugrun

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I took a couple of pics at AAD 2016 that I still need to post - this is one of them, it was hung under one of the pylons of the Mwari, outboard of a pylon with two Mokopa missiles attached. Speaking to one of the chief designers, he stated that a team from Denel arrived and placed it on (as per prior arrangement), but it was the first time he had seen it and also did not know what it was exactly. Obviously a PGM of some type - however unless it's just a mock-up purely for promotional purposes, I have not seen or heard of this weapon being developed or available from Denel.

Not at all out of Denel's ability and technical reach, however can anyone out there tell us anything more about this 'new' PGM (name/project name/technical details)?

BTW - apologies for the watermark, I am just finding so many of my pics and scans appearing on FB and other sites, sometimes with other people putting their own watermarks on and claiming the pics/scans as being their own!

Offline lastdingo

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The diameter changes point at it being a combination of existing sensor with existing bomb body IMO.

Offline Graugrun

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Thanks Lastdingo - what you say makes sense, it's most likely a watered down version of the Umbani/Al-Tariq's laser guided sensor option (or maybe it's the newly developed IIR version). No one at the stand could tell me anything more about it. Looks actually in many ways like the more cost effective option on all levels (to the Umbani/Al-Tariq).
« Last Edit: June 12, 2017, 12:12:11 pm by Graugrun »

Offline Graugrun

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Some info I got at the last AAD (2016) show concerning mini gas turbine development (specifically for PGMS and missiles) that I have been meaning to share for a while now.

There has been a sudden re-resurrection in terms of South Africa's development in this regard over the last 2 years or so. As per my earlier posts in this thread (#84 and #102 specifically), the 1980's project Apartment has also been widely mentioned and covered in these and other posts.

Here are some pics of the 200N micro gas turbine in development by Cape Aerospace Technologies (CAT), with CSIR help and guidance. It apparently will quickly become the top turbine in the enthusiast/model hobby market should they get it to match their projected specs. It's also an important step in getting a new (or rather renewed) grassroots level of expertise growing within the South African gas turbine development environment. Once perfected, it can also be scaled up to start meeting the 600N and perhaps even the 1000N thrust ranges. Once thus up-scaled, it will start matching the criteria for military PGM's etc. I suspect that Umbani/Al-Tariq or Raptor III could be a potential receiver of these higher thrust turbines - this will dramatically extend their range and combat flexibility. Naturally various existing and new UAV's being developed could benefit from this gas turbine range.

The bottom pic is my own - the top pic shows the difference in physical size to the project Apartment turbine and is off of the CAT website. There are some differences in the pics of each one respectively, more than likely earlier and later development versions.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2017, 12:07:53 am by Graugrun »

Offline Graugrun

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So while the above micro gas turbine is in essence more aimed at the hobby market and as a test bed (and perhaps for smaller PGM/UAV applications), this 1000N (1kN) turbojet is a much more serious design in terms of military applications. It was as of August 2016 in the detailed design phase, so it should by now be something pretty real. Quoting from a CSIR dossier, the following relates to both this turbojet, as well as the above posted micro turbine:

"the core for both designs are based on mixed flow compressor design, simultaneously enabling high mass flow and pressure ratios in single stages. The compressors that have been tested thus far all show that the designs should meet their targets. The technology has many potential applications and spin-offs."

Later the article goes on further to say:

"there are many variant designs possible; for instance, by adding turbine stages or converting the engine to bypass engines with higher thrust for helicopter applications and UAVs, respectively".

Speaking to the principal engineer, he told me that they has specifically gone the turbojet route with the 1 kN project as it was a rough and tough design that could pretty much handle anything thrown at it. My pic below depicts a 1:1 scale model of the turbojet, made using a 3D printing process. It's a fair bit larger than the 200N design - at about a third longer and much wider IIRC. He also indicated that the combustion chamber could easily be lengthened, allowing for in-flight relight, or more importantly for military purposes - the ability to launch at high altitudes. This I think perhaps alludes to the project Apartment's potential short-coming, in that it might only have been capable of ground start/launch (in a high oxygen density environment). I assume project Apartment would have been further developed for air launch - but before that could happen the French stepped in and offered us their Micro Turbo turbine (initially denied to us, but when they saw we were getting it right on our own....). As mentioned above the new turbine could grow into a far more powerful one, including a bypass version.

The new turbojet does not have any oil mist lubrication in order to comply with international ITAR regulations, it's current theoretically calculated range without any lubrication is about 300km's. There is however certainly a requirement for a much higher thrust design than just 1kN, so we are definitely going to see more from this project in the future.

I was told that the (black) air inlet portion at the front of the turbojet was simply added on to the model for demonstration purposes only, and certainly is not something that has been correctly calculated and tested in any way.

I think I might have some more info on it somewhere, as soon as I find it I will post more on this project....
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 09:06:14 am by Graugrun »

Offline flateric

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Offline kaiserbill

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Very interesting. I wonder what is driving the renewed interest in these small turbines?
I also wonder what the potential upper scale thrust could be? Project Apartment was 3kN as far as I recall, putting it firmly into cruise missile power territory.

Offline Graugrun

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As per the posts in the "Various aviation projects from South Africa" thread, in the Postwar Aircraft Projects section, I have decided to post this here as it relates specifically to cruise missile use -

I chatted to the lead engineer from CSIR on this project, and in essence he mentioned the following:

1. There is a strong international need/requirement that has been placed on them, hence the Resurrection of the program (plus a local need).
2. He dug up the project "Apartment" program purely as a starting point for the project, so as not to 'reinvent the wheel' - however his initial designs will differ quite a bit (much lighter, smaller, more powerful and more fuel efficient).
3. He has commissioned Stellenbosch University and a small private company to design and build a 200N turbojet engine for radio controlled models use. This could have easily been bought off the shelf, however the aim was to produce our own and obtain the basic knowledge and grounding, allowing them to develop larger stuff later. They have completed the 200N project (I will post pics later).
4. The University and small company are now busy with designing the 600N advanced cycle turbine for Glider sustain-er purposes - and to further increase their ability.
5. He has a request to produce a very compact engine (could be the 600N mentioned above, or perhaps the new 3 kN model, developed from project Apartment?), for the Raptor III as per my post above. Although the lead Engineer on the Raptor III told me that he is free to choose any gas turbine engine he wants - so if CSIR don't make it in time, I guess Denel is going elsewhere. He will end up on a 6.6 kN model at the end of this project (so -200N, then 600N, then 3.3 kN, ending with a 6.6 kN engine).
6. He mentioned that there were a few other projects, other then project Apartment on the go in the 80's and 90's, without elaborating...
7. He seemed to indicate that he will be working on developing a turbofan as his project (as opposed to the turbojet that project Apartment is) - perhaps this will be the 6.6 kN version.
8. The reason project Apartment was terminated (even though it was showing very good promise), was that the French quickly decided to supply us with one of their own turbojets (Microturbo?), as soon as they saw that we were getting it right, they obviously thought it better to get the sale and prevent a new competitor in the micro turbo market. Apparently what we bought from the French was then used in Skua (although the accompanying sign mentions that project Apartment was as a replacement for the Skua turbojet).

Below are some pics of project Apartment model as per the show - I am not a professional photographer and battled a bit with the perspex case covering the engine, so please forgive the poor quality of my pics.

Ok Kaiserbill - so to both answer you and for better reference and continuity purposes, I have quoted my own post (#84) above. The above was written directly after my AAD 2016 visit and therefore with a very fresh memory...

So looking back at my notes, I have now posted a pic of the (CAT) 200N Micro turbine as per point 3 - It seems that this will be developed into the 600N version for glider sustain-er purposes (civilian applications IIRC).

The 1000N/1kN turbine model I posted after that is the military specific development - I guess that they are starting with this as the core building block to verify and then test it all out. Once this core has matched expectations and theoretical projections, they will upscale it to a 3.3kN thrust model (specifically for the Raptor III requirement - which then should also cover Umbani/Al-Tariq should there also be that need). Finally ending up with a 6.6kN model, which I guess will be powering something pretty big (far bigger than your average cruise missile), so perhaps a fairly large UAV?

Whatever it all entails, there are certainly going to be some interesting times ahead for us in terms of new weapons and other (UAV?) developments. We would simply carry on buying more French micro-turbo's if it were not the case... With regards to what is driving this sudden resurgence of mini turbine development, I can only guess that there is a definite (more than likely foreign) client requirement/s that they are working to.

So in essence this is the 'new' Project Apartment, picking up where it left off in 1988 and building on it and diversifying on it quite dramatically too.

Two more pics of the 1kN model (different angles) - IIRC, it was about 40cm in length and about 20cm in width, excluding the black air inlet vane (the little slide lock on the inside of the cabinet door should also be able to give you some sort of size reference).

Offline Graugrun

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A bit of a change in direction from my above last posts - this time something more on the Cheetah C-RAM missile, currently being developed.

I assume it will work on the CLOS/Semi- Automatic CLOS principle (very cost effective and simple), although I could be wrong here. pictured is both the mock-up missile, as well as a scale model depicting it's deployment layout in conjunction with the Oerlikon Skyshield radar and 35mm (upgraded) guns. The Oerlikon radar usage is to both keep costs down and to increase potential client opportunities.

I actually do have the brochure somewhere, but seem to have mislaid it and a whole pile of the newer stuff I collected at AAD 2016... As soon as I find it, I will scan and post it too.

There is a call for a cheap type C-RAM system, in terms of our many deployments up in Africa as part of various U.N. forces. The U.N. camps are often located near to towns and cities, where every now and again mortar or other light weapons are fired into the camps at night, from positions within the surrounding civilian towns or cities. This makes retaliatory fire near impossible, so a system like this to eliminate the threat without causing collateral damage is needed. It should be available for testing in about 2 years time from now.

Let's hope they get it right and well within budget/cost per shot expectations.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 05:22:09 am by Graugrun »

Offline kaiserbill

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 :o Very interesting Graugrun...I wonder if it is based on Umkhonto or Darter components.

Offline Graugrun

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Kaiserbill - I would suspect more tech would be used from the Umkhonto missile program - it's much more matured, cheaper and lower tech (thus cheaper) than the A-Darter program.

Obviously a big part of the Cheetah C-Ram missile program is to get to a very low cost per round - also as per my picture below, the Umkhonto program had already made provision for a very cost effective CLOS version (bottom missile), specifically for those cash strapped countries operating in a low tech military environment (threat).
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 11:50:44 pm by Graugrun »

Offline Graugrun

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #184 on: October 13, 2017, 04:17:41 am »
Finely - an update on the Marlin BVR missile, looks like they are making good progress on it too!

http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=49580:marlin-missile-making-swift-progress&catid=35:Aerospace&Itemid=107


Offline kaiserbill

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #185 on: October 13, 2017, 02:41:56 pm »
Very interesting. .it's further along than I thought.
Interesting tidbit too that A-Darter will finish its final acceptance tests before year end..so in a matter of weeks.

Offline Graugrun

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #186 on: February 14, 2018, 10:56:52 am »
Here's an interesting article published in the then official SADF/SANDF magazine "Salut" in April 1995. It covers some of the development of the South African LRAAM Ramjet BVR Air- Air missile project (See from posts #25 to #35 on page 2 and 3 of this thread). It states that the project began in 1986 with multiple tests of 127mm and 230mm sized boosters occurring three years later in 1989. Final tests of 2 X 180mm Mach 2.3 capable missiles successfully took place in 1994.

I have never mentioned it before, but I have been told for the last 7 years or so that this technology was sold off to MBDA for use in their Meteor missile...? This was by someone who was and still is very connected in weapons development, and has a very good understanding of the industry in general. I certainly believe that at least Taiwan must have bought it. This might explain why with the current Marlin BVR missile program, we are using conventional propulsion instead of Ramjet propulsion (that I believe we should be doing) - because sadly we just don't own the IP anymore....
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 11:28:04 am by Graugrun »

Offline Trident

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #187 on: February 14, 2018, 11:06:12 am »
I have never mentioned it before, but I have been told for the last 7 years or so that this technology was sold off to the British for use in their Meteor missile...?

Seems unlikely - the Meteor ramjet is not a British area of responsibility (developed by Bayern-Chemie of Germany).

Offline Graugrun

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #188 on: February 14, 2018, 11:14:58 am »
Thanks for that Trident - correction made...

Offline Graugrun

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An interesting article on how Denel has been speeding up both the development and integration of both the A-Darter and Marlin missiles for the past while. They have also been able to make quite a large cut in integration costs too - this should interest many air-forces out there who want to achieve the same results, with new weapons they want to place on their aircraft.

It also provides a little bit of an update on the Marlin missile (BVRAAM) development.

http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=50926:test-pod-assisting-denels-missile-programmes&catid=90:science-a-defence-technology&Itemid=204
« Last Edit: March 05, 2018, 02:56:28 am by Graugrun »

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Malaysia has just trialed their new Denel Ingwe (leopard) ZT-35 missiles - a short article from Janes Defence on that. The Ingwe has been Denel's bread and butter missile for some time now, I know that there have been projects to develop a very stealthy version and naturally there have been ongoing smaller upgrades to the missile's components over the years.

The question is, that since it's combat debut in 1987 - when are they going to replace it with something new..?

http://www.janes.com/article/78500/malaysian-army-trials-ingwe-missile

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I originally posted this article in the "Space" section, however the below piece also relates very much to our nuclear missile program (dual use missiles), it's interesting in that the below is an official comment/admission to three test launches of MRBM/ICBM's - so I decided to add it here as well.


"In the 1980s the Overberg Test Range in the Western Cape was used for space launches. Four South African space rockets were built, and three launched between 1989 and 1990, but without useful payloads. In the 1990s funding for South Africa’s space programme dried up and as a requirement to join the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) in 1995, South Africa was forced to destroy much of its key facilities and technologies, including the launch pad at Overberg. However, the site has retained most of its space launch capabilities, including mission control centre, radar and telemetry tracking facilities, and range safety systems."

http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=51386:south-africa-to-increase-focus-on-space&catid=35:Aerospace&Itemid=107

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So here's some very interesting news concerning the supposedly defunct Mongoose 3 missile(?) being  the long range part of the LEDS close in vehicle protection system. So there is the short range (and well tested I believe) Mongoose 1 (5-20 meters), Mongoose 2 that reaches out to 60 meters and in this article they are talking about 300 meters for the Mongoose 3, or even up to a Km!

I have coincidentally just found some info on the early developments of the LEDS system and the Mongoose 1 - as soon as I get it scanned I will post.

It's a pity this program was short funded (and therefore very delayed), as we really were ahead of pretty much all other such close in vehicle weapons protection systems at the time!

http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=51913:firsts-for-denel-dynamics-in-close-area-protection-system-development&catid=50:Land&Itemid=105

Offline Graugrun

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On another note, Janes Defence has just reported that Denel Dynamics has successfully concluded a live test of the Marlin BVR missile's radar seeker (and the missile) - it was fired at a Locats target earlier this year.

So things are getting rather close to fruition for the Marlin program!

http://www.janes.com/article/80588/denel-tests-bvr-missile-seeker

Offline Graugrun

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Some more detailed info on the Mongoose 3 missile (Janes Defence), although I seem to have more questions than answers after reading the article... I suppose I'll have to wait a few months more for the AAD show to be able to find out more. I really thought it would be a much smaller missile and restricted to armour (tank) close in protection - it seems to be something else though...?

Your comments, thoughts...?

http://www.janes.com/article/80959/denel-dynamics-sheds-light-on-new-c-ram-missile

Offline kaiserbill

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Nice info Graugrun!

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Thanks Kaiserbill!

Here is another, more detailed article by Janes that covers the Mongoose 3 and Cheetah C-Ram development, it now clears up any confusion I had as to the roles/functions of the missiles. Looks quite nifty but could be a bit expensive to use in certain scenarios... Interesting the diverse amount of applications they have for it, plus the Piff/Paff type type rocket motors, doing away with the need for a trainable launcher in the tank/vehicle self protection mode.

I strongly suspect that they have an international order/contract to develop this (together with the Marlin BVR missile), I cannot see how they would get the necessary development funds and go-ahead otherwise.

http://www.janes.com/article/81207/denel-dynamics-unveils-layered-c-ram-system
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 07:48:54 pm by Graugrun »

Offline 61mech

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Interesting they don't really market it as a naval CIWS option. Sounds like it could work well as a bolt on type launcher for ship defence similar to RAM.

Thanks Kaiserbill!

Here is another, more detailed article by Janes that covers the Mongoose 3 and Cheetah C-Ram development, it now clears up any confusion I had as to the roles/functions of the missiles. Looks quite nifty but could be a bit expensive to use in certain scenarios... Interesting the diverse amount of applications they have for it, plus the Piff/Paff type type rocket motors, doing away with the need for a trainable launcher in the tank/vehicle self protection mode.

I strongly suspect that they have an international order/contract to develop this (together with the Marlin BVR missile), I cannot see how they would get the necessary development funds and go-ahead otherwise.

http://www.janes.com/article/81207/denel-dynamics-unveils-layered-c-ram-system

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #198 on: September 13, 2018, 07:01:38 am »
Interesting they don't really market it as a naval CIWS option. Sounds like it could work well as a bolt on type launcher for ship defence similar to RAM.

Thanks Kaiserbill!

Here is another, more detailed article by Janes that covers the Mongoose 3 and Cheetah C-Ram development, it now clears up any confusion I had as to the roles/functions of the missiles. Looks quite nifty but could be a bit expensive to use in certain scenarios... Interesting the diverse amount of applications they have for it, plus the Piff/Paff type type rocket motors, doing away with the need for a trainable launcher in the tank/vehicle self protection mode.

I strongly suspect that they have an international order/contract to develop this (together with the Marlin BVR missile), I cannot see how they would get the necessary development funds and go-ahead otherwise.

http://www.janes.com/article/81207/denel-dynamics-unveils-layered-c-ram-system

61 Mech - you are quite right, it could work very well as naval CIWS option, being vertically launched it has much more flexibility in terms of fitment and placement on a ship, and with a 10km range it seems to out range the RIM-116 Rolling Airframe Missile by 1 Km, so yes, they hopefully will be offering it in that role too.

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #199 on: September 13, 2018, 07:03:54 am »
Some nice updates on nearly the whole range of missiles Denel Dynamics is developing, testing and manufacturing. Some new ones are mentioned as well.

http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=53093:denel-dynamics-develops-new-missiles&catid=50:Land&Itemid=105

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #200 on: September 13, 2018, 07:14:02 am »
Some nice updates on nearly the whole range of missiles Denel Dynamics is developing, testing and manufacturing. Some new ones are mentioned as well.

http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=53093:denel-dynamics-develops-new-missiles&catid=50:Land&Itemid=105

There seems to be a typo in the press release.  It refers to P2 as a "surface-to-air munition" but the rest of the description makes it clear that it's an air-to-surface weapon, basically a small guided bomb (similar in scale to Griffin-A?).


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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #201 on: September 17, 2018, 05:51:51 am »
Thanks for spotting their error TomS!

Further to the article in my post #199 above - the following are (1st pic is my own my speculation) of three of the UAV type weapons mentioned in it:

1st pic - is perhaps a basic concept model of the P2 (14 kg, ground to air UN-powered small diameter weapon - medium range)?

2nd pic is a model of the Impi-S (15 kg, inertial/semi-active laser-guided missile - 6 km range).

3rd pic is the larger Impi missile (25 kg, inertial/semi-active laser-guided missile - 10 km range).

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« Last Edit: September 18, 2018, 09:19:36 am by Graugrun »

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #203 on: September 19, 2018, 09:54:27 am »
An update on the CAT range of micro gas turbine engines, ranging from 120 to 400 Newton models (see my previous post #176).

Most interesting to me is the mention of them featuring a fuel-atomising direct kerostart system, which also enables a relighting capability for high-altitude starts - I take this to mean the capability to launch PGM's/cruise missile type weapons from an aircraft.

https://www.janes.com/article/83092/power-up-aad18d1
« Last Edit: September 19, 2018, 10:47:24 am by Graugrun »

Offline 61mech

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #204 on: September 22, 2018, 08:18:52 am »
Some AAD missile pics

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #205 on: September 24, 2018, 03:42:45 am »
Thanks for those nice pics 61mech! - good to see some of the range in comparison/relation to each other, also it's great to finally get a decent sized pic of the elusive Impi missile (a mock-up's good enough for me). I'll add in some of my own pics soon.

In the meantime, some more info on the 1000N Gas Turbine- it's now named the SED-1000x.

As can be seen by the big change in the internal layout, a different direction in it's design has been taken (compare to my post #180), it's now much more conventional in it's layout and is also pretty much frozen in terms of it's final design - It's about 50cm long and 25cm wide. Testing of the compressor section is scheduled for March 2019, and I guess that the complete system will have been tested (fully?) by the end of 2019. One of the designers told me that he would more than likely scale it up (3,3 kN I mentioned in post #180?), and then go on to use it as a core for a turbofan model/version.

I still suspect that a foreign client is behind the need for this and once developed, they will buy the IP for it and produce it themselves..?
« Last Edit: September 24, 2018, 03:45:21 am by Graugrun »

Offline Grey Havoc

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #206 on: September 24, 2018, 04:27:39 am »
I still suspect that a foreign client is behind the need for this and once developed, they will buy the IP for it and produce it themselves..?

China, you think?
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Offline Graugrun

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #207 on: September 24, 2018, 05:27:34 am »
I still suspect that a foreign client is behind the need for this and once developed, they will buy the IP for it and produce it themselves..?

China, you think?

No - someone geographically more in the middle of us (South Africa) and China...

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #208 on: September 25, 2018, 09:52:43 am »
From Janes Defence - a little more on the Cheetah and Mongoose 3 C-RAM missiles. I'll add some comments from my discussion with one of the missile design team in the near future.


https://www.janes.com/article/83246/protecting-forces-from-aerial-aerial-threats-aad18d3

Offline Grey Havoc

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #209 on: September 25, 2018, 10:58:02 am »
No - someone geographically more in the middle of us (South Africa) and China...

Interesting.
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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #210 on: October 29, 2018, 06:04:38 am »
Some more detailed info on the CAT range of Micro turbines - with the indication that they want to develop a 1 to 1,5 kN model in the near future...

http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=53553:new-orders-for-cape-aerospace-technologies-gas-turbines&catid=35:Aerospace&Itemid=107

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #211 on: October 29, 2018, 08:04:36 am »
Quite interesting!

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Re: South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.
« Reply #213 on: January 09, 2019, 06:41:20 am »
Stealth Ingwe