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Author Topic: Lockheed Martin CUDA Air-to-Air Missile  (Read 64275 times)

Offline bobbymike

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Lockheed Martin CUDA Air-to-Air Missile
« on: October 31, 2012, 09:17:49 pm »
Best picture on page 6 Lockheed Martin 'Cuda' small AMRAAM for internal weapons bay of the F-35. I count 12 missiles total.

http://www.airforce-magazine.com/MagazineArchive/Magazine%20Documents/2012/November%202012/1112expo.pdf

Can some of the experts here at SP estimate its size and therefore its potential range from these pictures?
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Offline SpudmanWP

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Re: Lockheed Martin CUDA Air-to-Air Missile
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2012, 01:35:01 pm »
Here's the quote:

Quote
|1| A Lockheed Martin model shows how its “’Cuda” concept for a small AMRAAM-class radar guided dogfight missile could triple the air-to-air internal loadout on an F-35. The missile is about the size of a Small Diameter Bomb and fits on an SDB-style rack.

Would it not make more sense, given the limited space available in a small missile package, to go with IIR (hardened against DIRCM)?

Also, how about using it for missile defense (anti-SAM & anti-AAM)?
WE4-45-1-08     OMHIWDMB
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Offline mithril

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Re: Lockheed Martin CUDA Air-to-Air Missile
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2012, 03:46:11 pm »
maybe the choice of radar guidance was to limit the exposure of the aircraft?
IIRC, IR guidance require the missile to be mounted such that it can acquire the target just before launch using its own seeker. something that can be difficult using internal bays. on the F-22 they used a trapeze system, on the F-35 the sidewinder compatible hardpoint was mounted on the door, etc.

using radar guidance, the missile can be just ejected out of the bay along a preprogrammed course. which means that it not only can be fired with less risk to the stealth of the plane, but also means that it doesn't have to have special mounting systems to make use of internal bays.

the Small Diameter Bomb size is interesting.. i seem to remember that at one point, the F-22 was predicted to be able to carry 8 SDB's along with 2 AMRAAMs and a 2 Sidewinders.. if these 'Cuda' missiles use the same mounts, an F-22 could conceivably carry 8+ 'Cuda' missiles in an air to air role, plus the larger systems.

i would imagine however that the small size and use of radar guidance would really limit the range of the missile.

also, it seems lockheed copyrighted 'Cuda' back in 2011.

Offline SpudmanWP

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Re: Lockheed Martin CUDA Air-to-Air Missile
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2012, 06:18:48 pm »
The latest IIR missiles (like the Aim-9x Blk2) have lockon after launch (LOAL mode) so having a lock before launch is no longer needed.


Since these are dogfighting missiles, the target will be in full view and within the tracking ability of EODAS the whole time.  With a datalink constantly updating them with the target location, an IIR seeker is not a problem.


Another part of the problem with a radar seeker is the the nosecone is hollow (wasted space).  With such a small missile space is at a premium and an IIR seeker is more efficient (no wasted space in the nosecone, smaller battery, etc).   


And yes, currently the F-22 carries 8x SDB, 2x AMRAAM, and 2x Sidewinder.  Since the F-22 lives in BVR, a better option might be 4x AMRAAM, 2x Sidewinder and 4xCUDA.


They might continue the work done on the NCADE.  Notice that most to the seeker fits into the normally empty AMRAAM nosecone.  Compared to the NCADE seeker, more space can be saved due to not needing the shockwave spike (or whatever that is) on the NCADE.




Just like the F-22, I think it's a mistake to go with too many CUDA missiles.  3xAMRAAM (or 4 with the Blk5 upgrade) and 4xCUDA would be the ideal A2A loadout IMHO.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 07:13:18 pm by SpudmanWP »
WE4-45-1-08     OMHIWDMB
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

Offline sferrin

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Re: Lockheed Martin CUDA Air-to-Air Missile
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2012, 07:11:09 pm »
The latest IIR missiles (like the Aim-9x Blk2) have lockon after launch (LOAL mode) so having a lock before launch is no longer needed.


Since these are dogfighting missiles, the target will be in full view and within the tracking ability of EODAS the whole time.  With a datalink constantly updating them with the target location, an IIR seeker is not a problem.


Another part of the problem with a radar seeker is the the nosecone is hollow (wasted space).  With such a small missile space is at a premium and an IIR seeker is more efficient (no wasted space in the nosecone, smaller battery, etc).   


And yes, currently the F-22 carries 8x SDB, 2x AMRAAM, and 2x Sidewinder.  Since the F-22 lives in BVR, a better option might be 4x AMRAAM, 2x Sidewinder and 4xCUDA.


They might continue the work done on the NCADE.  Notice that most to the seeker fits into the normally empty AMRAAM nosecone.  Compared to the NCADE seeker, more space can be saved due to not needing the shockwave spike (or whatever that is) on the NCADE.

I wonder how big the upper stage of the GD/Westinghouse AAAM was.  Even the upper stage had TVC and dual-mode guidance.  And folding wings.  Damn, every time I think about that thing it seems like such a shame it was never pursued. 
"DARPA Hard"  It ain't what it use to be.

Offline SpudmanWP

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Re: Lockheed Martin CUDA Air-to-Air Missile
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2012, 07:16:35 pm »
It was my fav too.  The thing to remember with the 2nd stage of the AAAM was that all the heavy lifting (up to it's max altitude) was handled by the 1st stage booster.  The 2nd stage was able to get the job done due to it being able to trade potential energy for maneuver energy (aka gravity).


A CUDA would not have this benefit since it would be fighting gravity the whole way.


Here is the cutaway for the AAAM

« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 07:57:16 pm by SpudmanWP »
WE4-45-1-08     OMHIWDMB
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

Offline chuck4

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Re: Lockheed Martin CUDA Air-to-Air Missile
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2012, 09:59:40 pm »
What happened to the dual band radar and infrared seeker for AAM that being developed during the late 1980s?
I believe the idea was for the missile to fly to within Lockon range with a hollow nose cone, then eject the nose cone to expose the dual band seeker to lock onto the target.


Offline SpudmanWP

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Re: Lockheed Martin CUDA Air-to-Air Missile
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2012, 07:57:20 am »
Turn out the CUDA's range should not be as bad as I thought, aka math is your friend :)

I ran some simple cylinder calculations and found out that if the CUDA uses a 7 inch body that it will have the a little more internal volume (at least 10%) than an AIM-9X.  I added calculations for 6 and 5 inch bodys.

Code: [Select]
All in inches

Missile    Length    Diameter    Volume
AMRAAM     144       7           22167
9x         118.8     5           9331
CUDA       70.8*     7           10899
CUDA       70.8*     6           8007
CUDA       70.8*     5           5561

*SDB used as length

Different drag will have to be accounted for and if a radar seeker is used then even more volume will be lost for the fuel.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2012, 08:00:48 am by SpudmanWP »
WE4-45-1-08     OMHIWDMB
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

Offline mithril

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Re: Lockheed Martin CUDA Air-to-Air Missile
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2012, 12:57:52 pm »
so if we assume the same warhead as a sidewinder, and a radar seeker off an AMRAAM, what kind of range could we be looking at here?

Offline SpudmanWP

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Re: Lockheed Martin CUDA Air-to-Air Missile
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2012, 01:09:07 pm »
The problem with that kind of comparison is that the Radar seeker + dead space + batteries = much more volume than a 9x's IIR seeker + batteries and I do not know how much.
WE4-45-1-08     OMHIWDMB
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

Offline SpudmanWP

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Re: Lockheed Martin CUDA Air-to-Air Missile
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2012, 06:34:33 pm »
CUDA is HTK

http://theaviationist.com/2012/11/30/cuda/



Quote
“Cuda is a Lockheed Martin multi-role Hit-to-Kill (HTK) missile concept.  Lockheed Martin has discussed the missile concept with the United States Air Force. The Cuda concept significantly increases the internal carriage capacity for 5th generation fighters (provides 2X to 3X capacity).  Combat proven HTK  technology has been in the US Army for over a decade.  Bringing this proven HTK technology to the USAF will provide potentially transformational new capabilities and options for new CONOPS.”
WE4-45-1-08     OMHIWDMB
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."

Offline bobbymike

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Re: Lockheed Martin CUDA Air-to-Air Missile
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2012, 04:15:52 am »
Turn out the CUDA's range should not be as bad as I thought, aka math is your friend :)

I ran some simple cylinder calculations and found out that if the CUDA uses a 7 inch body that it will have the a little more internal volume (at least 10%) than an AIM-9X.  I added calculations for 6 and 5 inch bodys.

Code: [Select]
All in inches

Missile    Length    Diameter    Volume
AMRAAM     144       7           22167
9x         118.8     5           9331
CUDA       70.8*     7           10899
CUDA       70.8*     6           8007
CUDA       70.8*     5           5561

*SDB used as length

Different drag will have to be accounted for and if a radar seeker is used then even more volume will be lost for the fuel.

So can you enhance range with a higher energy propellant? I am assuming if there is going to be a boost phase intercept mode you need a faster burn out speed?
Books are the quietest and most constant of friends; they are the most accessible and wisest of counselors, and the most patient of teachers.

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Offline starviking

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Re: Lockheed Martin CUDA Air-to-Air Missile
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2012, 05:01:16 am »
CUDA is HTK

http://theaviationist.com/2012/11/30/cuda/





What are the rows of circles just down from the nose? Manouvering jets?

Offline Rafael

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Re: Lockheed Martin CUDA Air-to-Air Missile
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2012, 08:16:17 am »
CUDA is HTK

http://theaviationist.com/2012/11/30/cuda/





What are the rows of circles just down from the nose? Manouvering jets?

It says it's a HTK "a small AMRAAM-class radar guided dogfight missile ". I speculate from these tidbits that this missile will be launched in LOBL mode to "reduce exposure" (though I'm not sure it can't be done with modern IR guidance). The "AMRAAM class" suggests to me that this small missile will have a range similar to an AIM-120 (no warhead inside, use the space for fuel). It's "dogfighting" capable, so the crown of maneuvering jets close to the nose suggests a very agile vehicle, In consequence, It's small, and can be stowed in greater numbers. It also says in the article it's "Multi-role"; so I'm thinking HTK=antimissile intercept capable, a Mini-PAC, maybe?. Kinetic Kill vehicle for A2G or anti-tank?

So many speculations on my part, but just the notion of storing more kills per bay makes me more comfortable with the F-35 and -22

Offline Avimimus

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Re: Lockheed Martin CUDA Air-to-Air Missile
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2012, 11:07:17 am »
I'd assume that multi-role would mean both BVR and WVR modes... It'd be asking too much for an ATG mode (That said I've always liked the AGM-122 Sidearm).