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Author Topic: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)  (Read 43104 times)

Online flateric

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Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« on: July 10, 2012, 05:36:55 pm »

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/in-focus-bae-strenghtens-unmanned-systems-activities-373318/


Quote
"At Farnborough we will also look for a positive indication from the governments that they are willing to allow BAE, Dassault and engine suppliers [Rolls-Royce and Snecma] to work on an 18-month FCAS demonstrator preparation programme," Fillingham says. This will draw on the companies' respective experiences with the Taranis and Neuron air vehicles, both of which are expected to make their flight debuts within the coming months.
A scale model of a conceptual future strike aircraft will be on display outside BAE's exhibit at the show, but Fillingham stresses that this "is not the designed vehicle" for any Anglo-French programme. The company also does not rule out the possibility of manned systems being considered as a part of such studies.
photo by Marina Lystceva


(someone needs to buy pants one size more next time)
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Online flateric

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2012, 04:44:14 pm »
...
« Last Edit: March 04, 2016, 02:03:24 pm by flateric »
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2012, 04:47:26 pm »

BAE Plans for UAV Fanfare Fizzle Out


FARNBOROUGH AIR SHOW » JULY 11, 2012
by  CHRIS POCOCK




July 10, 2012, 4:50 PM
BAE Systems canceled a briefing here yesterday on Anglo-French collaboration for the next generation of UAVs. The company had hoped that ministers from both countries would be ready to announce joint funding for further studies of medium altitude long endurance (MALE) UAVs and a future combat air system (FCAS).


In briefings last month, BAE officials expressed guarded optimism that the deals could be struck. They still hope for approval of the studies this month. But the recent change of government in France has slowed the process, and may even have confused it. New French defense minister Jean-Yves Le Drian has said that the German and Italian aerospace industries might become partners in joint European UAV development. The British government, on the other hand, is on record as preferring bilateral cooperation only.


More immediately, Le Drian is due to announce this week whether France will stick to a plan to procure the Voltiger MALE system that was outlined by the previous government. Intended as an interim solution to an urgent requirement to support French troops in Afghanistan, the system was proposed by Dassault and based on the IAI Heron TP platform. But no contract was signed, and French troops are leaving Afghanistan later this year. Various alternatives have been suggested, including an upgrade to France’s existing Harfang MALE system based on the smaller IAI Heron, or even a buy of Reaper UAVs from the U.S.


The UK Royal Air Force (RAF) already operates Reaper UAVs in Afghanistan. These were acquired under an urgent operational requirement (UOR) and are not funded from the core defense budget. They are supposed to be withdrawn in 2015 after most British troops leave Afghanistan.


The RAF has been pleased with the Reapers in operation, but has raised concerns over the lack of operational sovereignty. However, two recent developments have allayed some of those concerns. The RAF Reaper ground station has been relocated from the U.S. to the UK, and the U.S. has conceded that non-American payloads can be integrated on the Predator/Reaper via a new open architecture. If the UK were to take Reaper into the core defense budget and prolong its service life, the case for speedy development of the proposed Anglo-French Telemos MALE could be undermined.


http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/2012-07-10/bae-plans-uav-fanfare-fizzle-out
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline Matej

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2013, 06:33:05 am »
FCAS in the form of reincarnated Dassault Grand Duc mockup.

Bizarre aviation expert.

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2016, 12:12:10 pm »
 A brand new and very detailed article highlighting how serious the participants of the Anglo/French FCAS UCAV programme are:

http://www.defenceiq.com/air-forces-and-military-aircraft/articles/bae-s-taranis-completes-phase-3-of-flight-tests/


"What BAE Systems engineers learn from the Taranis can ultimately be expected to contribute to the Future Combat Air System (FCAS) programme, the goal of which will be an armed drone, jointly developed, produced, and utilised by the RAF and French Air Force. Closer defence co-operation between the UK and French governments was provisionally marked with signing the Lancaster House Treaty in November 2010, and the 2015 Strategic Defence and Security Review (SDSR) recommitting Britain to continue its partnership with France on the FCAS.
Interestingly, both countries continue to work on their own stealth UCAS programmes, with the experiences gained from the Dassault nEUROn likely to contribute to the FCAS as much as the Taranis will.
The FCAS is currently in the middle of its two-year Feasibility Phase (FP), which began in November 2014 with the two governments awarding £120 million to six partner companies: Dassault, Safran and Thales in France, and BAE Systems, Rolls-Royce, and Selex ES in the United Kingdom.
Goals of the FP include the maturation of operational UCAS concepts, the development of key UCAS technologies, the evolution of simulation capabilities, and the formation of a programme vision – including a proposal for the first phase of a demonstrator programme, ultimately bringing the accomplishments and experience of all six companies together."
« Last Edit: January 24, 2016, 12:52:02 pm by mrmalaya »

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2016, 04:17:57 am »
A tantalising glimpse of a new piece from AW about the FCAS UCAV work and the progress being made:

http://aviationweek.com/defense/anglo-french-ucav-study-begins-take-shape

I don't have a subscription but would welcome a précis from anyone who does.

The subtitle reads:  British-French UCAV could fly as wingman to manned fighters

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2016, 02:31:51 am »
Ok, so here is the link to the full article now:

http://aviationweek.com/defense/anglo-french-ucav-study-begins-take-shape

According to the article it is not clear whether 2017 will see a move to a demonstrator or something representative of an operational aircraft.

It also suggests an aircraft as long as Typhoon with longer wingspan and two engines, but more details will be due in a few months.

I found this quote interesting:

"The FCAS team has taken lessons from both the British Taranis program and the joint European Neuron, led by France. Rowe-Willcocks says that even though both platforms are powered by the same Rolls-Royce Adour engine, the integration of the engine into the platform is “very different.” In addition, while the French chose to incorporate weapon delivery into Neuron, BAE Systems chose to insert what it calls a “high level of automation and survivability technologies.”

Which suggests to me that Taranis is stealthier and smarter than Neuron.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2016, 02:48:46 am by mrmalaya »

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2016, 05:49:51 am »
Confirmation is due soon but the Uk and France are today signing up to a $2billion dollar UCAV project under the FCAS banner with a flying prototype as the next stage:

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-france-drones-idUKKCN0W51HM

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2016, 11:30:49 am »
So Britain and France are each contributing £750million to the FCAS UCAV

The programme begins next year with a "Technical review" in 2020 - this is in line with the next SDSR in the UK.

Prototype (or operational demonstrator) to fly in 2025 and service scheduled for after 2030.

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2016-03-03/britain-france-jointly-develop-future-combat-air-system

Other articles suggest it is to clear a path for manned assets, but I haven't seen that stated officially.

But one prototype or multiple, and is there to be a different aircraft either side of the Channel?
« Last Edit: March 03, 2016, 02:01:50 pm by mrmalaya »

Offline Deltafan

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2016, 06:23:44 pm »
In November 2014, the first "results" (drawings ? 3D ? Others ?) for the first stage of the project were foreseen for the end of the year 2016.

Wait and see... :-\

Offline Grey Havoc

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2016, 01:53:41 am »
In other words, it's likely dead on arrival.
The sole imperative of a government, once instituted, is to survive.

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2016, 02:48:20 am »
I don't see that.

Where is the issue?

They have just set out $2 billion of expenditure and its dead on arrival?


Offline red admiral

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2016, 09:33:25 am »
They have just set out $2 billion of expenditure and its dead on arrival?

Indeed. That is some serious money being spent. More than double that spent on X-47B. Will be interesting to compare with CBARS/RAQ-25 when more detail is available.

Offline Grey Havoc

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2016, 01:53:52 pm »
They have just set out $2 billion of expenditure and its dead on arrival?

Indeed. That is some serious money being spent. More than double that spent on X-47B. Will be interesting to compare with CBARS/RAQ-25 when more detail is available.

The problem is, not only is the deal implicitly contingent on there being no 'Brexit', but also neither Britain nor France have actually allocated any funding or other resources for the program, nor are likely to do so in the near future due to budget pressures and other priorities. Basically the deal is a glorified (and incomplete) Memorandum Of Understanding at best, superseding the long lapsed Item 16 bi-MALE outline from 2010 (part of the UK–France Summit 2010 Declaration on Defence and Security Co-operation). The respective governments may try to get their erstwhile industrial partners to cover the gap, but the odds of them actually succeeding in this (with the possible exception of Thales, though even that is a bit doubtful) are not good, especially given that the 2014 FCAS study appears to have been something of a dead end/industrial embarrassment.
The sole imperative of a government, once instituted, is to survive.

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2016, 02:28:33 pm »
I don't understand ? You are well enough read to be able to see this programme has pedigree. Is this more about Britain and the EU for you?

Do you expect to see the results of the 2014 phase of the programme even though it was a two year deal?

As far as I can see FCAS is running to schedule and just had a massive boost in funding and support, so how is it you think the whole thing is a sham?

I don't understand where this reaction is coming from and can only assume its some anti-european thing (which is not relevant in my view).

From an aerospace point of view I think its a very important development and whilst it is yet to yield results, more than one government on both sides of the Channel have backed the project, so in my view FCAS is very much alive.

« Last Edit: March 04, 2016, 11:47:10 pm by mrmalaya »

Offline Grey Havoc

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2016, 02:31:13 pm »
We'll agree to disagree then.
The sole imperative of a government, once instituted, is to survive.

Offline red admiral

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2016, 03:08:25 pm »
We'll agree to disagree then.

They've just allocated $2bn if you read the statements, which follows on from the initial study started in 2014. This is programme start for prototype aircraft rather than a dying whimper.

Online flateric

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2016, 02:41:53 am »





« Last Edit: March 05, 2016, 02:43:49 am by flateric »
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2016, 04:15:59 am »
Thanks for the context flateric.

I find it interesting though that all the publicity around FCAS is generated by the French side and BAE are either rubbish at PR or don't want to talk.

It's this aspect alone that makes me wonder whether we will see one prototype from Britain and one from France sharing engines and sensors but with the airframe remaining sovereign.

Time will tell.

Online flateric

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2016, 04:50:22 am »
Well, BAe is putting some efforts on FCAS PR, but for limited circles indeed.
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline Deltafan

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2016, 05:29:59 am »
Thanks Flateric :)

For comparison : Taranis, Neuron, model of FCAS (November 2014) and the US Navy X-47b :

« Last Edit: March 05, 2016, 05:48:07 am by Deltafan »

Online flateric

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2016, 07:07:14 am »
cranked kite planform is not something unknown for BAe
FOAS concepts mix, 2004
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline Deltafan

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2016, 12:51:35 pm »
"Future" Dassault fighter, from CATIA software in 1994 :




Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2016, 01:46:03 pm »
In recent times the only designs that BAE have produced are one which looks like the X45A and Taranis.

I find the X47B lookalike from Dassault and X45A lookalike from BAE a bit fishy and more likely to be placeholders than representative of genuine designs.

But I could be wrong.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2018, 09:22:20 pm by flateric »

Online flateric

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2016, 03:27:28 am »
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2016, 06:13:00 am »
Oh good, it wouldn't be the first time ;D

When the time is right I look forward to further illumination then.

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2016, 05:59:16 am »
More evidence that the French like their 2014 design enough to release it into the public domain:

http://www.asds-media.com/videos/fcas-studies-m1190

BAE have yet to release an image of their 2014 vintage X45A lookalike other than as the model/artwork used during the ceremony.

The French have used this type of planform before 2014, so perhaps that is why they are comfortable with it?
« Last Edit: March 08, 2016, 06:01:07 am by mrmalaya »

Offline shedofdread

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2016, 08:33:01 am »
Considering the classification of some of the work done / being done, I'd infer nothing [at this time] from that which is publicly available.

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2016, 11:57:55 am »
Agreed. This plus the fact the new phase has yet to begin and by definition will differ significantly from anything studied in the past 10 years.


Offline Deltafan

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2016, 09:01:38 pm »
More evidence that the French like their 2014 design enough to release it into the public domain:
http://www.asds-media.com/videos/fcas-studies-m1190
Interesting.

Thanks for the sharing MrMalaya.

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2016, 10:57:05 pm »
France has ordered a new round of tests for neuron as the two countries move towards the FCAS demonstrator phase for next year:

http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Security-Industry/2016/05/18/New-flight-test-campaign-for-nEUROn-combat-drone/5481463577875/

"France has announced a new round of flight tests for the nEUROn unmanned combat aerial vehicle to study the use of the drone in a naval context....

The tests will include sea trials from the Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier and will be followed by an electromagnetic signature measurement series of tests early next year."

Offline Deltafan

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #31 on: May 19, 2016, 02:14:25 am »
Thanks again for the sharing Mrmalaya :)

Quote
The tests will include sea trials from the Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier

Is the Neuron able to take off from a carrier ? :o

Or there will be "only"  "almost touch and go" tests, as for the Rafale A with the carrier Clémenceau (30 April 1987, with the Rafale seven times 50cm above the deck) ?  ???
« Last Edit: May 19, 2016, 03:45:45 am by Deltafan »

Offline Deltafan

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #32 on: May 20, 2016, 12:33:02 am »
Well, i got the answer on a french website. The Neuron will take off and land on earth, but it will fly above the ships of the fleet.

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #33 on: May 20, 2016, 12:59:45 am »
Yes I understand from Janes that they are using the carrier groups sensors against neuron. I guess they are filling time before the next phase kicks off.

Offline Deltafan

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #34 on: June 05, 2016, 12:00:02 pm »

Online flateric

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #35 on: June 14, 2016, 07:33:32 am »
(c) ONERA
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

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Offline Flyaway

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #37 on: July 12, 2016, 09:54:37 am »
FCAS set to deliver national variants

Quote
The Anglo/French Future Combat Air Systems (FCAS) programme will likely see two variants of a base aircraft developed and delivered - one to each partner.

http://www.janes.com/article/62191/farnborough-2016-fcas-set-to-deliver-national-variants

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #38 on: July 12, 2016, 11:04:48 am »
I wonder if anyone is thinking of naval operations? The French cant really have been flyin neuron over the carrier group just to test their radars.

In addition it is becoming pretty clear both partners (and the Germans for that matter) are going to use this UCAV as an extension of the manned fleet.

Online flateric

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #39 on: July 25, 2016, 02:39:52 pm »
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline starviking

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #40 on: July 25, 2016, 04:33:29 pm »
Future Programmes and Services (FP&S)? Sounds like a City Hall planning committee! :o

Offline TomS

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #41 on: July 26, 2016, 09:22:03 am »
I'm seeing "Future Programs and Support."  And FP&S is not FCAS, it's the BAE effort to figure out ways to estimate the support costs of programs long into the future.  As the slide says

Quote
"How do we estimate three decades of
Support Costs,
for something that won’t be on the line
for two decades,
utilising technology that hasn’t
been invented yet?"

FCAS just happens to be one of the programs they have to do this long-range support cost estimating for.

I sort of love that their example is a series of battlestars.  You can do the methodology on anything, but making the study example totally fictional should prevent anyone from reading into it anything about actual programs.

Online flateric

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #42 on: July 26, 2016, 11:58:17 am »
I don't insist though. My bad, seems that I got things wrong.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2016, 12:07:24 pm by flateric »
"There are many disbelievers in
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Offline Grey Havoc

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #43 on: August 27, 2016, 07:05:09 am »
On a possibly related note, via the UK Defence Journal blog:



EDIT: I had totally forgotten that fightingirish had posted the same video back in 2014!

« Last Edit: August 27, 2016, 07:13:45 am by Grey Havoc »
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Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #44 on: November 13, 2016, 09:33:46 am »
Fresh from halloweene on  the Key aviation forum; the CEO of Safran engines talks (in French) about the FCAS engine partnership with RR:



Most areas of workshare for the power plant are decided and Britain and France have agreed on how to firm up the project before they open it up to other countries like Germany.

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #45 on: December 20, 2016, 05:00:34 am »
Another agreement signature leading towards the flying demonstrator phase of the programme in 2017:

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articles-view/release/3/179650/france,-uk-extend-fcas-program,-sign-new-agreements.html


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Offline Hood

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #47 on: March 10, 2017, 07:21:20 am »
It seems BAE Systems and Dassault are keen to press on regardless of any political influences beyond the sphere of defence policy.
Doubtless though Dassault will have a Plan B ready in case there are problems, after all they are Europe's most successful military aircraft company and have the will and ability to go it alone.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/dassault-plays-down-brexit-fears-over-anglo-french-u-435036/

Offline kaiserd

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #48 on: March 10, 2017, 11:22:17 am »
Nice try but Dassault do not have either the will or the ability to go it alone anymore than BAE does. In fact they are currently busily telling financial analysts that the handful of Rafale export orders they have achieved are whats saving them in the face of falling business jet sales.

As for most successful, perhaps individually but they have been significantly outproduced by consortiums that have had heavy BAE involvement. 599 Typhoons have been ordered in total, Rafale is unlikely to get close to that based on current planned procurement by France and export orders to date.

In fairness Dassault doing at least as well as selling Rafales as any of the Eurofighter consortium members are doing selling Typhoons; indeed it's appears there is going to be a 2nd hand market for unwanted and unloved early Tranch Typhoons competing with the factory fresh model.
Dassault will be hopping for follow on orders from existing clients, any further large Eurofighter orders likely to rest on if Saudi Arabia goes for a follow up order.
It should be remembered that Saudi's current order wasn't actualy an addition to the overall order book but came off existing UK order numbers (similar case for other Typhoon orders coming off other partners existing orders). Less a new order won, more an expensive cancellation prevented.
(For the record I'm a fan of both aircraft.)

In reality even just in terms of what is politicaly and commercially viable neither BAE or Dassault capable of going it alone on a major UCAV or equivalent project.
For BAE the concern maybe that in a post-Brexit, Trump-as-president world it (and the British government as its principal customer for new planes) will struggle to be seen as a reliable or significant partner or player (at least in terms of new programmes).
« Last Edit: March 10, 2017, 11:35:13 am by kaiserd »

Offline JFC Fuller

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #49 on: March 11, 2017, 01:28:34 am »
As previously pointed out, Typhoon will exist in far greater numbers than Rafaela ever will. Typhoon Tranche 1s are hardly competitors to new build Tranche 3s either- they are essentially different aircraft.

The UK government is seen as a reliable partner. Far more so than many other European countries.

Offline kaiserd

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #50 on: March 11, 2017, 04:01:32 am »
As previously pointed out, Typhoon will exist in far greater numbers than Rafaela ever will. Typhoon Tranche 1s are hardly competitors to new build Tranche 3s either- they are essentially different aircraft.

The UK government is seen as a reliable partner. Far more so than many other European countries.

I wouldn't look to defend France's decision to go it alone be back in the 80's and your probably right about ultimately more Typhoons than Rafales. But given that the Eurofighter members are the UK, Germany, Italy & Spain then if the Typhoon didn't outnumber the Rafale (with only France as its "home" country) then sosomething must have gone massively wrong for that not to be the case.
There isn't much difference between the orders both have won in open international tenders; to be blunt this is a bit like arguing like who is the tallest drawf as both have faired badly against American competition (particularly the F-35, which BAE have a share of work in).
Again would emphasise that I'm a fan of both aircraft.

And while I appreciate that there substantial under the skin differences between Tranch 1 and Tranch 2/ Tranch 3 Typhoons (with latter far more capable long term, particularly in the air-to-ground role) it is a bit disingenuous to pretend that the availability of 2nd hand examples of the former won't impact the already limited demand for the latter.

And being as non-editorial as possible it would not be surprising if European Partner look at the UK differently after Brexit and it appears that the new US administration is generaly less interested in international partnerships and in more in "US-first" policies. As such it is reasonable for there to be concerns around how easily the U.K. based parts of BAE will find it to form new partnerships with European and/or US partners, such as substantial UCAV projects with remotely significant production numbers.
Ironically the US based subsidiary of BAE may do well out of increased US defense spending.

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #51 on: March 11, 2017, 12:37:18 pm »
My problem with this project is that for the past several months everything (in terms of PR) has been coming from the French. They tell us everything is progressing, they tell us everyone is really keen to continue and yet BAE have literally nothing to say on the subject.

BAE talk about Taranis and what it has done, but we have had no programme update, models or details from BAE or the project partners.

The latest rumours suggest that the shared design is to  be along the French X47b lookalike lines, with a modified Rafale engine in it.....

The UK and BAE have the comfort blanket of the F35 work for decades to come, with the F35 doing LO work alongside Typhoon. The French have nothing to fly alongside Rafale in ten years time, and have consistently talked about FCAS as a buddy to Rafale. So does the UK need FCAS enough to continue?

Offline red admiral

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #52 on: March 12, 2017, 12:43:46 am »
My problem with this project is that for the past several months everything (in terms of PR) has been coming from the French. They tell us everything is progressing, they tell us everyone is really keen to continue and yet BAE have literally nothing to say on the subject.

UK government security and other sensitivities generally mean there is little public info on UK position. The UK has said very very in substancecaround Taranis for example - still plenty of stories on it being supersonic with intercontinental range.

Whereas DGA/Dassault are happy to blab to the journalists, despite the fact that DGA has no money...

Offline kaiserd

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #53 on: March 12, 2017, 01:14:40 am »
My problem with this project is that for the past several months everything (in terms of PR) has been coming from the French. They tell us everything is progressing, they tell us everyone is really keen to continue and yet BAE have literally nothing to say on the subject.

BAE talk about Taranis and what it has done, but we have had no programme update, models or details from BAE or the project partners.

The latest rumours suggest that the shared design is to  be along the French X47b lookalike lines, with a modified Rafale engine in it.....

The UK and BAE have the comfort blanket of the F35 work for decades to come, with the F35 doing LO work alongside Typhoon. The French have nothing to fly alongside Rafale in ten years time, and have consistently talked about FCAS as a buddy to Rafale. So does the UK need FCAS enough to continue?

I agree that it is very easy to see the UK role & money for their share of the FCAS being seen to overlap/ be in competition with with a potential/ likely F-35A order to replace the early Tranch Typhoons.
In previous scenarios similar to this (for example the decision to go with the Tornado ADV)  industry and political considerations mitigated towards the UK-European option.
Post-Brexit it is unclear what will be the stronger drive with the UK decision makers; to prove the UK remains interested in strong partnerships with its European neighbours, or a U.K. equivalent to Trumps "American-First" as may be expected from the most hardcore & vocal Brexiters.

And while I may disagree with the idealogy and politics of the later it is quite possible that the basic maths and cost versus capacity equation will favour prioritising a F-35A (which also has U.K. BAE workshare) buy over the UK portion of the FCAS.
Given that even the US isn't currently willing to put its deep strike eggs in the UCAV basket then for France & UK to do so would represent a significant risk which could turn out to be an expensive way to obtain assets that are potentially inherently less flexible or reliable (especially when facing a near-peer opponent) versus a manned alternative like the F-35.
FCAS is a necessary gamble for the likes of Dassault and the UK portion of BAE to remain relevant as independent producers of 1st grade military aircraft; its yet to be seen if both the Frence & UK governments have the same view of the necessity of this gamble or the stomach to see it through, especially in a post Brexit world neither foresaw when they started it.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2017, 01:23:15 am by kaiserd »

Offline Hood

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #54 on: March 12, 2017, 03:37:36 am »
BAE's silence could be secrecy or it could be practical cynicism. As I said in the T-X thread, BAE Systems is very risk adverse. It will do nothing without a partner and its shareholders probably see more profit and value in its electronic systems projects, most of which depend on sizable US contracts. You only have to look at the Advanced Hawk, a 50/50 risk share. BAE designed the new wing but they've left it to HAL to do the flying and assembly and any Advanced Hawk exports will come from HAL's factory not BAE's. And Hawk is BAE's only successful remaining military export aircraft. The RJX had no international partner and was scrapped.
 
One could question if BAE Systems was so busy on FCAS would they be willingly sending 100 engineers on a holiday jaunt to Turkey? (*tongue-in-cheek*). The truth is there is more profit and less risk in acting as a design consultancy. Developing nations like India and Poland are crying out for valuable offset production work so its a win-win for both parties, but it leaves companies like BAE Systems as niche players in cutting edge technology and makers of one-off prototypes.
Dassault, from what we've seen of their travails in India, seems to resist this trend and wants to produce its own stuff. With Airbus Military on its doorstep you can see why.

That's not to say BAE don't take FCAS seriously, the technology demonstrators will be essential to keep their cutting edge skills but given most other air forces haven't gone down the path of FCAS-like technologies means the chances for exports are low (classified systems and tech also play a part) and its a long-term gamble whether it will produce actual service aircraft. It's as much of a long term gamble of that a low-flying supersonic strike aircraft designed in the late 1950s would remain viable by 1970. History has been littered with thousands of words on the next big thing in the next 20 years from VTOL airliners, supersonic airliners and supersonic V/STOL fighters but that doesn't mean when you get there things have already moved on.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2017, 03:41:07 am by Hood »

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #55 on: March 12, 2017, 03:44:19 am »
I suppose it runs something like this: The UK embarked upon Taranis because it had years of research into UCAVs and had recently had its fingers burned over F35 source codes and thus needed to reinforce its sovereignty in such matters. Clearly BAE had a big say in this process.

Taranis testing appears to have been developing along the lines of deep penetration using its advanced aerodynamics and VLO design to do things other UK assets can't (even the F35 has the encumbrance of the pilot being at risk).

This has been achieved with no outside help.

The French view is that they use their less ambitious neuron, built with the help of everyone in Europe in order to get some experience of LO operations and feed that into the development of an unmanned wingman for Rafael (is their any evidence the French view FCAS as more than this?).

The suggestion is that the x47b lookalike is built with warmed over M88s and then the 2countries use their own avionics in operational test. The most optimistic slant you can put on this, is that BAE will use it as a cheaper and more financially secure way to get their advanced sensors and navigation package into operational testing.

Or, nothing is being said because the reality is that the 2 teams were not at the same place in terms of technology and that without a beneficial political climate to drive the cooperation, the whole thing is falling apart.

Offline red admiral

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #56 on: March 12, 2017, 12:29:58 pm »
Interesting to see people's perceptions of how they think the BAES - MoD (RAF, FMC, Dstl) relationship works.

@Hood

"Make in India" is the only reason that Advanced Hawk exists. Most customers want operating cost savings and more alignment to current fighter types, which T2 / 128 services. It doesn't even seem that India wants Advanced Hawk.

Risk avoidance is to be expected in current military aircraft design when initial costs are at 100s of £ms at the very least. No one is taking that sort of risk nowadays.

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #57 on: March 12, 2017, 01:18:45 pm »
Well I'm not sure any of the above branches of government/industry have a true fix on the nature of their relationship :)

I also don't want to get into an interminable discussion on the lineage of Taranis. Perhaps because of the above, we all have slightly different views on what the point of it is.

That said, I do think the project is more ambitious and the aircraft more accomplished than it's European counterpart. I also don't think that Dassault is as far ahead in the field of AI and LO as BAE, but that is only based on it's focus on Rafale as the pinnacle of it's work to date.

I had assumed that we would see two distinct demonstrators with some common sub-systems that would allow sovereignty in design, whilst sharing costly engine development. If it's the case that the airframe is essentially feeding off of French research and the engine likewise, that is not much of a partnership- more of an extension of Neuron isn't it?

Offline red admiral

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #58 on: March 12, 2017, 02:45:34 pm »
I had assumed that we would see two distinct demonstrators with some common sub-systems that would allow sovereignty in design, whilst sharing costly engine development. If it's the case that the airframe is essentially feeding off of French research and the engine likewise, that is not much of a partnership- more of an extension of Neuron isn't it?

Not sure why you think France is leading airframe design.

M88 vs. EJ200 vs. Something else - helps to not have international partners sometimes.

Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #59 on: March 12, 2017, 11:55:12 pm »
Yes I take the point about engines (although the Turks seem to have enrolled RR to use the EJ200 for their jet and thrust vectoring -RR having bought IPT recently)).

That said, EJ200 wasn't on the cards really was it? Wasn't it either M88, a heavily modified M88 or something new?

As to my paranoia, it is fed by a well connected rumour and the distinct lack of PR from the UK. Time will tell :)

Offline Harrier

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #60 on: March 13, 2017, 12:44:31 pm »
I'm not brave enough to post this in an F-35 thread, so will park it here:

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/445708/f-35-replacement-f-45-mustang-ii-fighter-simple-lightweight

If the UK took up this idea in place of big unmanned Doritos, and added a dose of ASTOVL because, well, why not?, I would be happy as a taxpayer and airshow fan.
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Offline kcran567

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #61 on: March 13, 2017, 02:12:47 pm »
I had the same idea a few years ago and posted here in a few threads. Next generation A-4 or F-5/20 with limited stealth, good performance and passive sensors. Built in higher numbers than current generation because the cost is astronomical and growing exponentially.

Stealth and expensive gadgets are good, but how can there be an effective lower cost solution? Unless this happens will end up with $500M fighters and $Trillion bombers very soon.

 What if the old Sukhois and Migs find a good way to detect the F-22/35 in combat using old radars, jamming, and good IR sensors?? You then have have low numbers of very expensive fighter fleets that are extremely difficult to maintain and keep operational at parity with cheaper enemy aircraft.

Offline kaiserd

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #62 on: March 13, 2017, 04:18:50 pm »
Your going a bit off topic lads.
If what your are suggesting was such a good idea then one would expect that very few countries would be mistakenly pursuing F-22/F-35/Typhoon/ Rafale etc. equivalents and that many countries would be persuing the type of design you are proposing.
In reality the opposite is true; multiple countries are voting with their wallets and selecting the capable but expensive types with light weight fighters becoming rarer and very much niche players.
Even the Gripen has got larger and heavier to compete.

Re: UCAVs (and specifically re: the FCAS) there will of course be the same capability versus cost trade-off, with UCAVs perhaps offering greater scope for trading some survivability for lower costs and greater numbers but also with the cost of systems for true autonomy mitigating against going too far in this direction.
It is this aspect, and the fear that a survivable deep strike UCAV flexible enough to be worth having could be a challenging and costly endeavour, that helps drive up the risks for the FCAS.
And that's before you get to the politics.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2017, 04:22:03 pm by kaiserd »

Offline Triton

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #63 on: March 13, 2017, 05:53:14 pm »
How much does the F-16IN Super Viper cost?

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #64 on: March 14, 2017, 02:39:40 am »
All the later F-16s cost way more than they should, having become high tech bomb trucks, and taking on more of LM's overheads due to delays in the successor programmes.

Designing any kind of system and hoping for controlled costs, while making and supporting it in a high overhead firm, will end up with something expensive, even if the thing itself is simple.
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Offline Flyaway

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #65 on: March 14, 2017, 04:37:10 am »
I'm not brave enough to post this in an F-35 thread, so will park it here:

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/445708/f-35-replacement-f-45-mustang-ii-fighter-simple-lightweight

If the UK took up this idea in place of big unmanned Doritos, and added a dose of ASTOVL because, well, why not?, I would be happy as a taxpayer and airshow fan.

Was that meant as some kind of comedy article?

Offline Flyaway

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #66 on: April 04, 2017, 10:11:50 am »
Brexit could impact future European fighter development, Airbus warns

Quote
The United Kingdom's decision to leave the European Union could have a major impact on Europe's plans to design, develop, and manufacture the next generation of combat aircraft, Airbus Defence and Space (DS) chief executive Dirk Hoke has warned.

Speaking to Germany's Handelsblatt newspaper on 31 March, Hoke said that, with the company currently working with the German government to define its Future Combat Air System (FCAS) requirements under the Next-Generation Weapon System (NGWS) future fighter programme, and France and the United Kingdom carrying out their own preliminary studies for the project, the Brexit decision by the United Kingdom to leave the European Union could be "significant".

"With regards to the United Kingdom, the next two years and the course of Brexit will have a significant impact on the decision of whether or not [the country chooses] to be involved [in NGWS]," he noted.

The UK decision on being involved in NGWS would be highly important to the overall success of the project as Europe can no longer realistically afford to develop multiple fighter types as it has done previously. It must pool its resources rather than set them against each other, as was the most recent case with the Eurofighter Typhoon, Dassault Rafale, and Saab Gripen platforms.

http://www.janes.com/article/69272/brexit-could-impact-future-european-fighter-development-airbus-warns

Offline red admiral

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #67 on: April 04, 2017, 11:25:15 am »
Airbus would say that, but the fact is that only UK and France have the money and industrial capabilities to do this.

I don't think either UK or France is going to set up another make-work collaboration like Eurofighter. Time for best athlete approach and consolidation.

Offline Harrier

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #68 on: June 21, 2017, 03:14:33 am »
News from Paris/AW:

http://aviationweek.com/paris-air-show-2017/engine-planform-begin-shaping-anglo-french-ucav

M88 engine = more UK airframe share? Different sensors/software for each nation. A carrier version too! Wow. Someone been given a budget to blow?
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Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #69 on: June 21, 2017, 04:27:06 am »
Hmm.

French engine (but arguable better choice for this application), French carrier compatible (as opposed to STOVL for QEC class) and the planform is very similar to that which the French have long favoured.

I have to wonder who is most motivated here.

Offline red admiral

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #70 on: June 21, 2017, 11:29:58 am »
DGA wants to spend money it doesn't have. The whole article is obviously written from discussions with Dassault/DGA and as such represents their hopes and dreams viewpoint, not necessarily reality.

The UK has been all over double edge planforms since FOAS days if you look back


Offline FighterJock

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #71 on: June 21, 2017, 11:48:51 am »
DGA wants to spend money it doesn't have. The whole article is obviously written from discussions with Dassault/DGA and as such represents their hopes and dreams viewpoint, not necessarily reality.

The UK has been all over double edge planforms since FOAS days if you look back

I am old enough to remember reading about some of the designs for FOAS and being impressed by some of them, including one that looked almost like Replica.

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #72 on: June 22, 2017, 05:01:35 am »
I know you can say that the most imaged FOAS study was a double edge platform but the DGA/Onera one is very similar to what we are being shown for FCAS. That said, all we hear these days is the French side of things.

When did you last hear or see anything on the UK work?


« Last Edit: June 22, 2017, 05:31:50 am by mrmalaya »

Offline red admiral

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #73 on: June 22, 2017, 12:35:23 pm »
When did you last hear or see anything on the UK work?

Yes the MoD doesn't brief journalists or allow Industry to, beyond agreed things, as there's no benefit in doing so. This doesn't mean that nothing is happening.

Chris Lee has done his lecture on Taranis aerodynamics a few times now, which is a masterpiece in saying nothing.

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #74 on: June 22, 2017, 12:50:38 pm »
Well hopefully there is still scope for it to look a bit more refined than the Dassault imagery suggests. That is depicting their original design from a few years ago anyway.


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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #75 on: June 22, 2017, 01:20:20 pm »
Quote
Chris Lee has done his lecture on Taranis aerodynamics a few times now, which is a masterpiece in saying nothing.

How much could be said on the aerodynamics of a subsonic non manoeuvring drone anyway? "Keep. The. Flow. Attached."?
« Last Edit: June 22, 2017, 01:27:22 pm by Harrier »
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Offline Trident

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #76 on: June 23, 2017, 01:10:51 pm »
Having googled Mr. Lee's name in connection with Taranis, a lot seems to concern engine integration (nozzle & particularly inlet). Makes sense, given the rather eccentric, LO-driven inlet shape that is probably non-trivial to achieve decent flow quality with.

Offline Flyaway

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #77 on: June 29, 2017, 12:36:05 pm »
Europe’s Complex UAV Studies Delivering Tangible Results

Maturing UAV studies suggest Europe’s governments are taking sovereign unmanned capabilities more seriously

Quote
Meanwhile, the veil has been lifted on British and French plans to develop unmanned combat air vehicle (UCAV) demonstrators planned for flight in 2025.

The €2 billion ($2.2 billion) program, agreed to by the governments in March 2016 in Amiens, France, looks set to deliver two advanced UCAVs, one to each country—which while nearly identical, will feature sovereign capabilities in terms of the radar, electronic warfare and electro-optical systems.

Concluding the joint Future Combat Air System (FCAS) feasibility study, signed off on at the 2014 Farnborough Airshow, officials from both countries have agreed to proceed on a platform to be powered by a derivative of Safran’s M88 turbofan engine, which powers the Dassault Rafale fighter.

They have also adopted a so-called “cranked kite” planform for the system, similar to that used on Northrop Grumman’s X-47. The platforms will be as long as that of a Dassault Rafale or Eurofighter Typhoon but will feature a larger wingspan. Total weight will be comparable to the two fighter jets, with the platforms optimized for range and endurance at subsonic speeds.

Quote
While much of the FCAS program’s progress has so far been kept under wraps, a series of scenario videos shown by French defense procurement agency DGA, illustrated key areas of study. Among the ones being explored by the development teams are use of artificial intelligence (AI) to assist ground operators with mission planning, target acquisition and on-the-fly analysis of threats.

In one scenario, the AI identified which UCAV, from a flight of four, was best suited to attacking a particular target type based on the UCAV’s weapon load, fuel status and other parameter sets. And as BAE has already demonstrated with Taranis, the UCAV can be requested to search for a target and report its findings to the operator.

At the moment the focus, in France at least, has been on controlling the UCAVs from a ground station, but officials are also looking at how technologies such as augmented reality can ease operator workloads.

However, officials note that the capabilities being developed for the UCAV could also apply to Rafale upgrades. Technologies being developed for the UCAV’s radar will likely feature in the Rafale’s future development road map.

http://aviationweek.com/technology/europe-s-complex-uav-studies-delivering-tangible-results
« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 12:48:05 pm by Flyaway »

Offline totoro

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #78 on: June 30, 2017, 12:39:06 am »
So... operational UCAVs starting to enter french/british air forces in 2030-2035 period? If the political will to pursue to project is still there?
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Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #79 on: June 30, 2017, 02:58:49 am »
Hmm.

Perhaps I had misinterpreted the "cranked kite" definition as applying solely to the French design?

http://aviationweek.com/shownews/bae-stealthily-posits-future-ucav-concept


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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #80 on: June 30, 2017, 03:06:54 am »
If the political will to pursue to project is still there?

In light of the UK election result I would not be surprised if the UK side  of FCAS suddenly went to Bombardier in Belfast!  :o

Seriously, the whole Brexit issue will complicate things, although I will believe any high end combat system from UK/Europe when I see it.
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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #81 on: November 12, 2017, 12:27:26 pm »
This could be the UK cranked delta version of the planform Dassault has been publicising in the past couple of years.

Dates from Farnborough last year.

Obviously BAE like their intake.

It also looks to me as if the fuselage forward of the wing is narrower and more pointed than the French design we have been shown.

« Last Edit: November 13, 2017, 07:07:31 am by mrmalaya »

Offline Deltafan

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #82 on: November 13, 2017, 04:27:00 pm »
It also looks to me as if the fuselage forward of the wing is narrower and more pointed than the French design we have been shown.
It seems :
« Last Edit: November 13, 2017, 04:29:28 pm by Deltafan »

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #83 on: November 13, 2017, 11:11:38 pm »
You agree?

The fuselage joins the wing inboard or at the same point as the rear fuselage, whereas on the French artwork its been outboard of that point since the beginning.

At the end of the day its comparison of a model from BAE, but its the first one that appears in context and resembles the supposed shared design.

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #84 on: November 14, 2017, 04:08:12 am »
You agree?
Yes.

As the 2 prototypes FCAS/SCAF must have the same "basis" but different "systems". It will be interesting to compare their shapes, when they will fly.

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #85 on: December 07, 2017, 06:03:18 am »
...
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 06:07:07 am by flateric »
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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #86 on: December 07, 2017, 07:52:43 am »
The white box / black box approach sounds wrong to me. The limitation among  all variables won't come from the level of comprehension but from the cognitive flows. We know from air combat history that SA surges before going down to zero. This where and how AI will sustain the combativeness of the SoS: supplementing human when a lot of small decision have to be done in a short time for a limited effect (the kill of one single bandit).

On the contrary, adding difficulty while building the tactical picture would have a detrimental effect and lead to inherent malfunctions b/w the pair human/AI. It is of utmost importance that the pilot remain the tactical battle manager (with suggestion from the AI obviously) since once decision would have to be taken (shoot, position, intercept for example), the better the comprehension, the quicker the chain and effect. Past that point where the SA degrades due to the shortness of decision time and surge of little information, the AI would be better suited to take the decision.   

In other word, it will be ill-suited to see tomorrow AI as a revolution that will need its own set of rules in air combat but, at least for the next decade, something more evolutionary. AI comes as something new in the civil world. It is not in the Aerospace where a crude form of it has been existing since combat automation (autonomously directed fighter for example).
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 08:08:27 am by TomcatViP »

Offline red admiral

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #87 on: December 08, 2017, 09:09:27 am »
Great, now UK, Germany and Sweden have separate programmes with identical names...

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #88 on: December 08, 2017, 09:25:29 am »
In the 80's Americans referred to FEFA as 'Five Europeans 'Fooling' Around' (Fooling us the clean version).

3 x FCAS may suggest similar thoughts!
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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #89 on: December 09, 2017, 03:24:47 am »
It almost seems deliberate on the part of SAAB and Airbus, where the France/UK project is government to government. A bit like, "Oh you guys have FCAS but don't forget we can do FCAS too, nudge, nudge".

I think the problem for them is that the Anglo-French Programme has a lot of practical work behind and ahead of it, with tangible aircraft being built, whereas SAAB and Airbus are still trying to find concrete programmes to hang some ideas on.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2017, 03:30:42 am by mrmalaya »

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #90 on: December 09, 2017, 05:33:08 am »
Maybe its just a lack of imaginative acronyms?

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #91 on: January 05, 2018, 06:46:24 am »
Happy new year.

Here is a paper that is free to download until the end of January:

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/aeronautical-journal/all-issues/ucavs-in-the-battlefield-operational-design-challenges

It says Taranis is to demonstrate supersonic capability!
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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #92 on: January 05, 2018, 08:09:15 am »
I'm not brave enough to post this in an F-35 thread, so will park it here:

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/445708/f-35-replacement-f-45-mustang-ii-fighter-simple-lightweight

If the UK took up this idea in place of big unmanned Doritos, and added a dose of ASTOVL because, well, why not?, I would be happy as a taxpayer and airshow fan.
thank yo for posting Harrier.
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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #93 on: January 05, 2018, 08:23:39 am »
Hmm, the reference within the paper for Taranis being supersonic, is a BBC article.

Which in turn will be sourced from the original newspaper articles which said it was supersonic.

If you want compelling evidence that Taranis is supersonic, then you only need to pick up a copy of the Guinness Book of Records which calls it "Fastest Unmanned Combat drone" or something equally odd ;D

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #94 on: January 05, 2018, 08:36:54 am »
Hmm, the reference within the paper for Taranis being supersonic, is a BBC article.

Which in turn will be sourced from the original newspaper articles which said it was supersonic.

If you want compelling evidence that Taranis is supersonic, then you only need to pick up a copy of the Guinness Book of Records which calls it "Fastest Unmanned Combat drone" or something equally odd ;D

I always thought that Taranis was subsonic?  I wonder who came up with the nonsense that Taranis is supersonic?   

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #95 on: January 05, 2018, 09:53:06 am »
I would be surprised if it was supersonic. Maybe a massive afterburner is hidden away. Big flames are hot but cool! :o
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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #96 on: January 05, 2018, 09:59:21 am »
I'm not brave enough to post this in an F-35 thread, so will park it here:

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/445708/f-35-replacement-f-45-mustang-ii-fighter-simple-lightweight

If the UK took up this idea in place of big unmanned Doritos, and added a dose of ASTOVL because, well, why not?, I would be happy as a taxpayer and airshow fan.
thank yo for posting Harrier.
This National Review Author is a prophet among men and he will be likewise be ignored.
If Taranis has big flames and can go supersonic, maybe put it on its tail for VTOL. I would be happy as an airshow visitor.

More seriously, anyone suggesting ways of getting costs down is worth a listen. Their ideas may not be practical, but rebutting them may lead your own thinking somewhere more useful. For me the problem is the desire to fly a lot thanks to the need for training. That is what costs the most. But thinking of ways to reduce that while still offering the desired capability..... VAAC Harrier was all about that.
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Offline jsport

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #97 on: January 05, 2018, 12:40:27 pm »
I'm not brave enough to post this in an F-35 thread, so will park it here:

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/445708/f-35-replacement-f-45-mustang-ii-fighter-simple-lightweight

If the UK took up this idea in place of big unmanned Doritos, and added a dose of ASTOVL because, well, why not?, I would be happy as a taxpayer and airshow fan.
thank yo for posting Harrier.
This National Review Author is a prophet among men and he will be likewise be ignored.
If Taranis has big flames and can go supersonic, maybe put it on its tail for VTOL. I would be happy as an airshow visitor.

More seriously, anyone suggesting ways of getting costs down is worth a listen. Their ideas may not be practical, but rebutting them may lead your own thinking somewhere more useful. For me the problem is the desire to fly a lot thanks to the need for training. That is what costs the most. But thinking of ways to reduce that while still offering the desired capability..... VAAC Harrier was all about that.
The FA-XX may need to be a large expensive piece w/ many missions, and even need to be guarded by unmanned versions of itself but an affordable optionally manned fighter has big space to fill as well. 

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #98 on: January 06, 2018, 04:10:21 am »
For me the problem is the desire to fly a lot thanks to the need for training. That is what costs the most.

Research and development, production, and operations and support cost proportions vary significantly across different programmes. Its not necessarily O&S that is the largest proportion, and its usually the lowest on a per year basis and hence most "affordable". For modern programmes with low production numbers, R&D costs are very significant for launching a new programme.

Now on the training point specifically, modern sims provide both cheaper and more realistic training for BVR combat. There are only a few places with nice big areas of closed airspace a long way from where people can electronically eavesdrop, and these aren't in Western Europe. Then training against realistic threats etc.

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #99 on: January 06, 2018, 08:51:57 am »
It depends on design choices. Development is always expensive if 'all new'. It always amazes me how, post McNamara, we can only cost what the cost database has, so repeat past concepts and approaches. Wider options cannot be costed in a defensible way with standard approaches, so get discounted.

The Harrier is very bad in O&S cost terms, with much flying and resultant maintenance done just to make sure the left hand does the right thing. Designing out the cost is more complex than taking a percentage off each column of the legacy-derived database. VAAC reduced STOVL costs, but no cost engineer would ever have suggested it.

Simulation is often cheaper, as long as it reflects reality, which can be messier than expected.
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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #100 on: January 06, 2018, 09:09:40 am »
How to go fast:
  A: increase thrust
  B: reduce drag
« Last Edit: January 06, 2018, 09:18:30 am by TomcatViP »

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #101 on: January 06, 2018, 02:59:18 pm »
How to go fast:
  A: increase thrust
  B: reduce drag

You forgot; C: Do both ;)

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #102 on: January 07, 2018, 12:03:07 am »
I have been told elsewhere that Taranis isn't supersonic because it doesn't look supersonic.

Other than the potential lack of engine thrust, is it the case that Taranis doesn't "look" supersonic?

Potentially relevant here because it may be that the BAE FCAS demonstrator is using the same forebody.

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #103 on: February 22, 2018, 12:48:07 pm »
UK preparing ambitious combat air strategy

Quote
The UK Ministry of Defence will publish a new combat air strategy document later this year, which defence secretary Gavin Williamson says will “bring together the best of British engineering, skill and design, and deliver a compelling vision for the future of air power".

Quote
France and Germany late last year expressed their willingness to develop a future combat aircraft to follow their Dassault Rafale and Eurofighter programmes. UK involvement in such a scheme remains uncertain, in part due to the effect of its departure from the EU in March 2019.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/uk-preparing-ambitious-combat-air-strategy-446123/


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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #104 on: February 22, 2018, 07:13:48 pm »
http://aviationweek.com/defense/britain-crafting-future-combat-aircraft-strategy

Quote
Britain Crafting Future Combat Aircraft Strategy
Feb 21, 2018 Tony Osborne | Aerospace Daily & Defense Report

LONDON—The British government is drawing up a long-awaited future combat aircraft strategy which could outline how Britain will replace the Eurofighter Typhoon.
Details of the Combat Air Strategy document, due to be published this summer, were revealed Feb. 21. Officials say it will examine the operational capabilities needed in the future and whether the skills and resources to deliver them are available within British industry. The work will consider new and emerging technologies as well as export potential, officials say.

Aerospace DAILY reported in January that civil servants were drawing up a draft combat air strategy.

British Defense Secretary Gavin Williamson said the document would result in “bold and ambitious plans” and “bring together the best of British engineering, skill and design, and deliver a compelling vision for the future of air power.”
Britain’s last defense industry strategy document, published in 2005, said the introduction of the Eurofighter and F-35 Joint Strike Fighter meant the UK did not need to build a new fast jet aircraft for more than 30 years because the Eurofighter and F-35 were likely to have long operational lives.

Thirteen years on, it is unclear whether the document will call for Britain to work on a new fighter alone or look for closer European or international cooperation. It could also call for the development of a new training aircraft as a follow-on to the successful Hawk.

The announcement has been widely welcomed by industry. It has been lobbying the government for a decision on a post-Typhoon vision, particularly in light of joint Franco-German fighter plans revealed last summer, which caught Britain largely off guard.

The need for a strategy was further strengthened by BAE Systems’ decision in October 2017 to lay off workers because of a shortage of Typhoon and Hawk orders, although the line was subsequently buoyed by the Typhoon order from Qatar. At the time, BAE’s Chris Boardman, the company’s managing director for military aviation, urged the government to detail a “combat air vision of the future.

“We are not looking for a handout, but a clear view for military aerospace beyond Typhoon,” he added. “It would be good for the country and the defense industry.”

As the UK’s largest defense company, BAE Systems is likely to be the biggest beneficiary of any future British combat aircraft program.

With the Qatar order, Typhoon production is now set to continue until 2024.

“We welcome the government’s commitment to developing the UK’s Combat Air Strategy, which recognizes the central role of the air sector in our nation’s defenses and prosperity,” a company statement said. “We look forward to working closely with the government as we further develop UK’s world-leading combat air capability.”

Paul Everitt, CEO of UK aerospace trade organization ADS, said there is a “vital need” for industry and government to work together to ensure the UK remains a “world-leading military air power and a highly competitive and capable option in the export market. The UK’s world-leading combat air sector welcome today’s announcement and will actively support the strategy’s development through the coming months.”

As well as building the Typhoon and Hawk, BAE has a significant share in the construction and development of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. British engineers also are involved in the development of a future Turkish fighter, the TF-X, as well as ongoing development of a joint Anglo-French unmanned combat air vehicle due to fly in 2025. But the program’s future appears hazy, with the next phase, a potentially costly design and development program, currently subject to delay.
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Offline Hood

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #105 on: February 23, 2018, 02:02:03 am »
Sounds laudable enough but I'm not holding my breath that it will be particularly innovative coming straight off the back of the Defence Modernisation Programme (aka Defence Review).
I suspect FCAS might be toted as a useful money-saving tool by reducing pilot manpower demands and flight training costs.
An all-new fighter or trainer seem unlikely compared to going ahead with FCAS, assuming the French can be brought on board (would they realisticaly pursue Neutron and a manned fighter at the same time?).

It's refreshing to see industrial aspects attached to this, though in reality this is about keeping BAE Systems aviation arm in business beyond 2025. By then they aren't likely to be making anything (supposing a few Hawk buyers can be rustled up).

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #106 on: February 23, 2018, 03:07:04 am »
The French are likely to hold on to Rafale for longer than the UK will operate Typhoon (given that Rafale is doing the job of the F35 and Typhoon for the French). They are very enthusiastic about the FCAS UCAV because it allows them to keep the all French Rafale alive and relevant for longer (as well as representing their first genuine LO design).

In the UK we have a tendancy to be less jingoistic about these projects because (save for Taranis), we have been sharing construction of our fighters/fast jets for decades.

I understand that there is a clear distinction between the VLO technology being used in the UK UCAV and French UCAV, but there is little detail beyond what I posted as to whether there are significant differences in the aiframe or operational spec.

I personally don't think we will cooperate with Europe for the Typhoon replacement. We have the F35 to do A2G and I have always said that Japan offers a good synergy with our needs- provided they stick with a domestic design.




« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 03:09:04 am by mrmalaya »

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #107 on: February 25, 2018, 11:14:43 pm »
Ministerial announcement due in April.

Britain moving away from strike and placing emphasis on reconnaissance (because there isn't room for F35 and a UCAV in the future  LO  budget?)

https://www.defensenews.com/intel-geoint/isr/2018/02/22/france-us-are-negotiating-isr-capability-for-reaper-drones-official-reveals/

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #108 on: February 26, 2018, 04:34:23 am »
Yes I posted in haste, so please forgive the reference to an LO budget (although your reply indicates that you took my point).

France needs something to help Rafale, but we have long thought of this type of thing as helping to inform the intelligence picture from deep into enemy territory.

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #109 on: February 26, 2018, 01:05:52 pm »
Relevant: Defence HQ is briefing today that the decision on what variant  any F-35 order beyond the planned 48 F-35Bs is has still not been made.

All government energies expended on Brexit?

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #110 on: February 26, 2018, 11:19:57 pm »
It could just be that now the RAF is operating it's own manned LO fighter (with all the 'exciting'  new capabilities the F35 apparently brings), it's harder to make the case for funding an unmanned stealthy wingman.

« Last Edit: February 26, 2018, 11:22:33 pm by mrmalaya »

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #111 on: February 27, 2018, 08:18:32 am »
JFC Fuller, I wondered if you had a link or could point in the direction of one, for the MoD F35 comment?

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #112 on: March 08, 2018, 06:42:53 am »
Dassault are pointing the finger at Brexit as they feel FCAS stalling:

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/brexit-throws-anglo-french-fcas-programme-into-doubt-446592/?cmpid=SOC|Twitter|Flightglobal|sf183961242|sf183961242&sfid=701w0000000uP3H#sf183961242

Is the UK starting to see less synergy with the French on this rather than Brexit causing a problem?

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #113 on: March 08, 2018, 10:26:50 am »
Perhaps the 'powers that be' have finally caught on to what those who work in the UK's northwest have been saying for quite a while - in that BAE can do the whole job...? One can only hope  ;)

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #114 on: March 09, 2018, 04:45:39 am »
Nothing is likely to happen from the UK side until the Defence Modernisation Programme and the new Future Combat Aircraft Strategy is completed, so probably not until 2019 at the earliest.
I don't think this has anything to do with Brexit but rather the lack of government willingness to part development cash on a programme neither air force seems to be clamouring for. I guess once we get an industrial and a military strategy in place then thing will move.
I feel this is Dassault trying to shake up both the three governments (Britain, Germany and France) to actually agree to something and fund something rather than just words, whether that's an Anglo-French UCAV or a Franco-German fighter. The former still seems the most likely to go ahead at some point.

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #115 on: March 09, 2018, 07:41:44 am »
I agree that it's far easier for a French Defence exec to blame Brexit.

F35 induction was also mentioned in the briefing as well to be fair.

I would love to know how much BAE et al are invested in the idea of working with Dassault.

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #116 on: March 09, 2018, 08:49:43 am »
I would love to know how much BAE et al are invested in the idea of working with Dassault.

Dassault has never successfully partnered with anyone before. Difficult to see the causes behind that changing anytime soon

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #117 on: March 09, 2018, 11:09:11 am »
All of which helps the Typhoon stay current for longer.

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #119 on: March 23, 2018, 01:23:18 am »
I would love to know how much BAE et al are invested in the idea of working with Dassault.

Dassault has never successfully partnered with anyone before. Difficult to see the causes behind that changing anytime soon

Alphajet does not agree...  >:( 
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Offline red admiral

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #120 on: March 23, 2018, 03:04:52 am »
Alphajet does not agree...  >:(

Breguet, not Dassault

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #121 on: March 23, 2018, 03:11:27 am »
Dassault merged with bought Breguet in 1971. Jaguar and Alpha Jet may have started under the Breguet banner, but first flight and production were very much a concern for the merged company Dassault-Breguet (since renamed Dassault Aviation).
« Last Edit: March 23, 2018, 03:13:31 am by Arjen »

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #122 on: March 23, 2018, 04:11:22 am »
Nope, while the Jaguar was a Breguet design, the TA-501 was a Dassault design, teamed with Dornier.

Wow, the anti - Dassault feelings are quite annoying (to stay polite). Nearly as much as hated as De Gaulle  ::)
« Last Edit: March 23, 2018, 04:14:04 am by Archibald »
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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #123 on: March 23, 2018, 04:13:29 am »
Dassault merged with bought Breguet in 1971. Jaguar and Alpha Jet may have started under the Breguet banner, but first flight and production were very much a concern for the merged company Dassault-Breguet (since renamed Dassault Aviation).

While Dassault somewhat dropped the Jaguar under a bus for their own F-1, the Alpha Jet did not suffered such fate and was in continuous development until the late 80's.
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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #124 on: March 23, 2018, 04:57:18 am »
It would make a lot of sense tbh. As we have dicussed earlier, the RAF doesn't need an unmanned F35, but the French do.

Might I ask if there is any more information on this tender you mentioned?

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #125 on: March 23, 2018, 12:19:55 pm »
Nope, while the Jaguar was a Breguet design, the TA-501 was a Dassault design, teamed with Dornier.

No, TA501 was developed from Breguet 126 and the Dornier 375 before Dassault and Breguet merged. The design work was pretty much done prior to Dassault joining. On all other projects, Dassault has insisted on total design leadership, regardless of whether it is best placed to do so or not. This isn't hate, simply an observation of Dassault's continued culture of independence which isn't conducive to successful partnering. Reports seem to indicate Airbus is experiencing the same joy in their FR-GER future fighter study e.g.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-germany-defence/airbus-dassault-vie-for-leadership-of-franco-german-fighter-idUSKBN1D31W0

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #126 on: April 05, 2018, 05:10:03 am »
Flight have finally reported on the Industry Day on 13th March, which JFC Fuller highlighted above.
The "Team Tempest" formed to submit a bid includes BAE Systems, Leonardo, MBDA and Rolls-Royce. So it involves everyone across the UK industry. The aim seems to be to follow on from Taranis but also as a development alongside the Anglo-French FCAS. I wonder how much of the work done on MAGMA will feed into this?

I still can't help thinking this is just another funding drip feed to keep the industry doing something. How radically different is it likely to be from Taranis or is this just a cut-price FCAS in case the latter programme goes nowhere?

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/team-tempest-pursues-ucas-demonstrator-deal-447301/

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #127 on: April 30, 2018, 06:23:21 am »
http://aviationweek.com/combat-aircraft/fighter-jet-will-reinvigorate-stunted-european-defense-industry?utm_rid=CPEN1000000230026&utm_campaign=14674&utm_medium=email&elq2=dfca9c966e4a432c917585957b09888e

Quote
Heralding a new era of European multinational defense programs, Airbus and Dassault Aviation are putting aside years of fierce competition to work side by side on the Future Combat Air System (FCAS), while France will take the lead in platform development.

The fighter is the flagship in a wave of new cooperative programs European governments hope to use to strengthen their resolve against a resurgent and increasingly aggressive Russia, as well as to halt the tide of European cash flowing into U.S. coffers for new armaments.
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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #128 on: April 30, 2018, 05:03:59 pm »
http://aviationweek.com/combat-aircraft/fighter-jet-will-reinvigorate-stunted-european-defense-industry?utm_rid=CPEN1000000230026&utm_campaign=14674&utm_medium=email&elq2=dfca9c966e4a432c917585957b09888e

Quote
Heralding a new era of European multinational defense programs, Airbus and Dassault Aviation are putting aside years of fierce competition to work side by side on the Future Combat Air System (FCAS), while France will take the lead in platform development.

The fighter is the flagship in a wave of new cooperative programs European governments hope to use to strengthen their resolve against a resurgent and increasingly aggressive Russia, as well as to halt the tide of European cash flowing into U.S. coffers for new armaments.

Yes,

But there is a little problem. There are now two Future Combat Air Systems : the (dead ?) programme of the British-French UCAV (That Britain wanted finally to be only UAV) in this topic and the new programme of the French-German manned fighter (and its system of systems), with its own topic in the link.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,29201.135.html
« Last Edit: April 30, 2018, 05:06:14 pm by Deltafan »

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #129 on: May 01, 2018, 01:24:34 am »
Maybe to differentiate between the projects we should identify the new Franco-German fighter under the French acronym SCAF (Système de combat aérien du futur européen)?

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #130 on: May 01, 2018, 03:38:26 pm »
It could be a good solution.

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #131 on: May 01, 2018, 11:19:11 pm »
....and hopefully we will get something more concrete on FCAS in the coming weeks.

We could however be facing  the prospect of the programme having run its entire length with virtually no comment on it by the UK team!

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #132 on: May 14, 2018, 12:47:15 pm »
Interview of the French Defense Minister in the French Weekly Aerospace Magazine Air & Cosmos :

"Le projet FCAS est en cours de réorientation. Au départ, nous avions l'ambition de faire un drone de combat. Nos alliés britanniques souhaitent faire évoluer le projet vers un drone de surveillance. Pour pouvoir concilier les deux approches, nous sommes en train de travailler à la définition de briques technologiques qui nous permettront de nourrir en même temps ces deux orientations."

We can understand that the project is not dead and that as France and UK have to build one demonstrator each, the current work consists in determining technical solutions allowing the building of a British UAV* and a French UCAV on the same basis (and no more a British UCAV and a French UCAV on the same basis).


*For the British demonstrator, maybe ISR or ISTAR are better words than UAV.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 01:12:16 pm by Deltafan »

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #133 on: May 14, 2018, 11:12:11 pm »
Great stuff, some genuine news thanks.
https://www.defensenews.com/unmanned/2018/05/11/britain-flip-flops-toward-isr-drone-but-france-keeps-eye-on-combat-capability/

Quote
Britain flip-flops toward ISR drone, but France keeps eye on combat capability
By: Pierre Tran     May 11
 
The U.K. has expressed interest in an intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance UAV over a combat-capable drone. (VanderWolf-Images/Getty Images)
PARIS ― An Anglo-French project for a combat drone demonstrator is switching tracks, as Britain is now more interested in pursuing a surveillance UAV, according to French Armed Forces Minister Florence Parly.

“The FCAS project is undergoing a reorientation,“ she said in an interview with weekly magazine Air & Cosmos, published May 11. “Our British allies would like to steer the project toward a surveillance drone.“

London and Paris, in a bid to pool their interest in respectively surveillance and combat drones, are working on “definition of the technology packages, which would allow us to feed into these two streams at the same time,“ she said.

France and the U.K. had planned to pursue a €2 billion (U.S. $2.4 billion) project to design and build a technology demonstrator for a combat drone, dubbed Future Combat Air System Demonstration Program, or FCAS DP. But the lack of announcement of a program launch at the Anglo-French summit in January was seen by French industry as a rethink on the British side.

France, however, has continued interest in building an unmanned combat air vehicle.

Despite the U.K.’s interest in an intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance UAV, there was scope for cooperation with France by sharing the technology on the FCAS DP.

The technology packages were a “great opportunity“ that could be used in a broad project to integrate manned and unmanned aircraft into a combined network, dubbed Future System for Air Combat, Parly said.

Germany is the partner for France on the latter, which will be opened up to other European partners, she said. “Certain (countries) have already asked and nothing rules out opening the project up for the United Kingdom if they wish to join,“ she said.

Work on the FCAS DP project is “extremely useful“ for France and the U.K., she added. “This is not about public relations.“

Defense industry analyst Fabrice Wolf is not surprised at the revelation, as Britain will have the stealthy F-35 fighter jet for operations in high-intensity zones, and a UCAV would duplicate the F-35.

For France, and particularly Germany, it is “indispensable“ to have such a UCAV capability, he added. Germany needs a replacement for its Tornado fighter and a planned Franco-German fighter will enter service around 2040.

Time was needed to allow the FCAS DP projects to mature and then be considered for incorporation with a larger European program, Parly said.

The French approach, whether working on the project with Germany or the U.K., was to identify useful and concrete projects, work in close cooperation, build solid foundations, and then open up to other partners, she said, all aimed at building European defense.

A strengthening of ties between Berlin and Paris is seen by the French defense industry as partly due to London’s planned departure next year from the European Union.

Britain worked on its Taranis UCAV demonstrator, which was first flown by prime contractor BAE Systems in Australia in August 2013.

For France, the initial test program for its Neuron UCAV demonstrator began in December 2012 to September 2015, flying in France and partner nations Italy and Sweden. The six nations backing the program are France, Greece, Italy, Spain, Sweden and Switzerland, with the former acting as the lead nation.

Dassault Aviation is the Neuron prime contractor, with subcontractors Airbus Defence & Space of Spain, Alenia of Italy, Hellenic Aerospace Industry of Greece, Ruag of Switzerland, and Saab of Sweden.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2018, 07:51:46 am by flateric »

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #135 on: May 17, 2018, 11:23:43 am »
I have noticed that sort of excellent English on their website before.

Does a Super Typhoon make a super ucav more likely or are we looking at cheaper ucav and expensive reconnaissance system?

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #136 on: May 17, 2018, 02:51:27 pm »
The Express story seems to be a complete rip-off from the Torygraph.

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #137 on: May 20, 2018, 05:34:43 am »
I don't think that turning the Typhoon into a UCAV would make any sense at all, it would be better to design a brand new UCAV from the ground up.

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #138 on: May 20, 2018, 09:39:50 am »
Don't know if you were replying to me, but I was referencing the idea that the UK buying so many F35s in the future was making it hard for anyone to justify building a big, advanced UCAV with France... and I wondered if a bigger fleet of Typhoon would instead require a more complex UCAV (as the French want to help Rafale) or just a loyal wingman (as they are reportedly looking at now)?

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #139 on: May 20, 2018, 11:17:11 am »
Don't know if you were replying to me, but I was referencing the idea that the UK buying so many F35s in the future was making it hard for anyone to justify building a big, advanced UCAV with France... and I wondered if a bigger fleet of Typhoon would instead require a more complex UCAV (as the French want to help Rafale) or just a loyal wingman (as they are reportedly looking at now)?

Sorry about that, I forgot to click on the Quote button.  :o  :-[.  Anyway I can see your point now and perhaps a slightly less advanced UCAV would do for now and let the technology mature, and the price of the technology to come down so that in the future we can afford to build a big and advanced UCAV.

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #140 on: June 29, 2018, 04:38:45 am »
Quote
In the July 2018 AEROSPACE: The UK mulls sixth gen fighter options, interview with Marillyn Hewson, CEO of Lockheed Martin, airlines face post-Brexit uncertainty and Russia relaunches biplane design.
Source: https://www.aerosociety.com/news/in-the-latest-aerospace-magazine-july-2018/
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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #141 on: June 29, 2018, 04:43:07 am »
Does Tempest work for the Japanese too?  ;)

Now that the French are offering SCAF membership to the Belgians as part of their efforts to push Rafale on them, I think the writing is on the wall for that particular cross-channel partnership unfortunately...

« Last Edit: June 29, 2018, 07:56:57 am by mrmalaya »

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #142 on: June 29, 2018, 05:35:00 am »
Eurofighter does that too with a similar offer:
Quote
General Manager of Airbus Defense and Space (ADS) -Belgium, Eric Lardinois:

"A participation into Scaf program (in English FCAS for "Future Combat Air System") is not solely related to the selection of French Rafale, as suggested by Paris."

Source (in Fr):
http://www.sudinfo.be/id62097/article/2018-06-28/remplacement-des-f-16-lachat-de-typhoon-permettra-aussi-lindustrie-belge-de

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #143 on: July 03, 2018, 01:28:41 pm »
Quote
In the July 2018 AEROSPACE: The UK mulls sixth gen fighter options, interview with Marillyn Hewson, CEO of Lockheed Martin, airlines face post-Brexit uncertainty and Russia relaunches biplane design.
Source: https://www.aerosociety.com/news/in-the-latest-aerospace-magazine-july-2018/
The article is now online.
Article: https://www.aerosociety.com/news/uk-mulls-sixth-generation-fighter-project/
Twitter with more pictures:
https://twitter.com/RAeSTimR/status/1014238654938730496
https://twitter.com/AeroSociety/status/1014087645440430081
That YF-23 version of the FCAS, you see in Twitter,  is just fan-art.
See:
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https://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/fa-fireghost-stealth-rocket-fighter/76106/
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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #144 on: July 03, 2018, 03:23:36 pm »
UK gives BAE Systems 12-month contract for FCAS work

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/uk-gives-bae-systems-12-month-contract-for-fcas-work-449913/

No details provided as to what the work is.

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #145 on: July 04, 2018, 02:38:53 am »
A good article that summarises the position well, even if it doesn't have any juicy revelations for us.

There does seem to be more momentum on the domestic UCAV front than the Anglo-French FCAS now though. At least from the UK perspective.

We are in danger of having FCAS-UK, FCAS-DP and FCAS terms in use across Europe.

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #147 on: July 04, 2018, 06:27:46 am »
What a find!

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #149 on: July 04, 2018, 12:41:45 pm »
A good article that summarises the position well, even if it doesn't have any juicy revelations for us.

There does seem to be more momentum on the domestic UCAV front than the Anglo-French FCAS now though. At least from the UK perspective.

We are in danger of having FCAS-UK, FCAS-DP and FCAS terms in use across Europe.

I wonder if the Taranis could be evolved to an active product?

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #150 on: July 05, 2018, 03:13:50 am »
Well it seems as though the UK has concluded that FCAS (with the French) is not the answer for the loyal wingman concept they are now actively pursuing and that is treads on the F35's toes too much. The RAF would rather have more F35s than risk a significant cut in numbers because of a still undefined FCAS UCAV.

It is supposed to continue for now, and the UK are thinking more of a sensor craft than deep-strike role apparently.

I think we will see a domestic UCAV to fly alongside Typhoon and the F35 - which has some pretty significant export potential in my view.

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #151 on: July 05, 2018, 04:22:24 am »
Some images off Twitter from BAE Warton media day.

Pointy wing tips (stalling) and tailplanes that seem to attach by magic indicate this is just for PR.
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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #152 on: July 05, 2018, 05:54:03 am »
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/uk-holds-discussions-with-sweden-over-fighter-collaboration/

But we actually need to see what SAAB and BAE can design between them!

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #153 on: July 05, 2018, 07:47:31 am »
Seems odd that BAE Systems aren't trying to get onto the Franco-German programme, but then BAE always did have a stake in Gripen so it makes sense to pursue the SAAB option.

Given the financial and technical issues that contracted the desires of the European nations to just three European platforms in the 1980s, it seems unlikely that the vastly increased R&D costs and the smaller export markets can sustain two, let alone three European programmes. I feel sure that the nations will coalesce as time goes on into the early 2020s if their different requirements can be met. 

I don't feel the Turkish programme really counts, I have a feeling its going to be a lot like the K-FX with cool stealthy looks but decidedly 4.5th generation capabilities. Useful fill-in fighters and useful industrial and political tools but not at the cutting edge by any means.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2018, 07:52:05 am by Hood »

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #154 on: July 05, 2018, 07:51:19 am »
Here is a paper showing a bit more of what BAE might have up their sleeves:



https://www.gla.ac.uk/media/media_432748_en.pdf

Including more detail on how that adaptable airframe might work (with a hint as to why those tailfins appear to be stuck on as an afterthought on the newly released BAE concept image).

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #155 on: July 05, 2018, 09:05:08 am »
Some images off Twitter from BAE Warton media day.

Pointy wing tips (stalling) and tailplanes that seem to attach by magic indicate this is just for PR.

I really hope that model was a case of some execs 13 year old son messing around in blender and not a professional modeller.

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #156 on: July 05, 2018, 09:15:03 am »
A sketch from @RAeSTimR on Twitter, at today's media day at Warton.

Optional manning discussed.
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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #158 on: July 05, 2018, 12:51:44 pm »
Seems odd that BAE Systems aren't trying to get onto the Franco-German programme, but then BAE always did have a stake in Gripen so it makes sense to pursue the SAAB option.

Given the financial and technical issues that contracted the desires of the European nations to just three European platforms in the 1980s, it seems unlikely that the vastly increased R&D costs and the smaller export markets can sustain two, let alone three European programmes. I feel sure that the nations will coalesce as time goes on into the early 2020s if their different requirements can be met. 

I don't feel the Turkish programme really counts, I have a feeling its going to be a lot like the K-FX with cool stealthy looks but decidedly 4.5th generation capabilities. Useful fill-in fighters and useful industrial and political tools but not at the cutting edge by any means.

That will be down to Brexit & the sour relations it has engendered with European nations.

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #159 on: July 05, 2018, 01:25:02 pm »
Not just the Europeans, we are not too happy about things either.

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #160 on: July 05, 2018, 03:03:12 pm »
Here is a paper showing a bit more of what BAE might have up their sleeves:



https://www.gla.ac.uk/media/media_432748_en.pdf

Including more detail on how that adaptable airframe might work (with a hint as to why those tailfins appear to be stuck on as an afterthought on the newly released BAE concept image).

Gorgeous !!!! Althought  Those that did read Ol'T-VIP would not feel like standing off guard :) so, Taranis IS the first supersonic stealthy drone designed in Europe?
« Last Edit: July 05, 2018, 03:06:46 pm by TomcatViP »

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #161 on: July 06, 2018, 01:06:01 am »
Interesting. A drone with VG wings and tails.
I'm no aerodynamics expert, but I assume the complicated VG tail fins are purely to ensure stability during sweep-change of the main wings? I can't think of any tailless VG concepts off hand.

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #162 on: July 06, 2018, 01:29:37 am »
I think the tails and reconfigurable leading edge and wing are to allow the same system to perform different roles. When you combine this with the flexible payload bay (which has already been tested), this UAV concept allows much more bang for buck.

BAE first talked about this with Corax, which was their Raven UAV demonstrator with ISTAR suitable wings.

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #163 on: July 06, 2018, 01:53:57 am »
Here is a paper showing a bit more of what BAE might have up their sleeves:



https://www.gla.ac.uk/media/media_432748_en.pdf

Including more detail on how that adaptable airframe might work (with a hint as to why those tailfins appear to be stuck on as an afterthought on the newly released BAE concept image).

Thx for sharing PDF !!, concept of BAE like airflow control for stealth, and variable wing are interesting !!

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #164 on: July 06, 2018, 05:50:13 pm »
higher res
well, I know that it's just a funny placeholder art, but whatever
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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #165 on: July 06, 2018, 06:52:12 pm »
super  Vulcan?
(The fr art is similarly a super Rafale. How funny....)

Offline Harrier

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #166 on: July 10, 2018, 11:40:50 am »
Something from the day job:

UK Combat Air - The Next Generation

https://www.cranfield.ac.uk/about/cds/low-cost-by-design
« Last Edit: July 10, 2018, 12:10:39 pm by Harrier »
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Offline Flyaway

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #168 on: July 15, 2018, 12:56:12 pm »
Jobs boost as MoD plan for British fighter jet takes off

Quote
Ministers are set to unveil plans to build a new fighter jet tomorrow — in a move that will sustain thousands of jobs and continue more than a century of combat aircraft manufacturing.

The commitment to develop a sixth-generation manned fighter is expected to be the highlight of defence secretary Gavin Williamson’s Combat Air Strategy, a blueprint for sustaining military aerospace design and manufacturing skills.

The pledge will provide a boost for the defence industry on the first day of the Farnborough air show, which will be opened by Theresa May. Bosses have long argued that Britain must commit to a new fighter jet or risk losing a crucial industry.

The move will sustain thousands of jobs in Lancashire, where BAE Systems builds the Eurofighter…

Unfortunately the rest of the article is behind a paywall.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/jobs-boost-as-mod-plan-for-british-fighter-jet-takes-off-xn372l230


Offline mrmalaya

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #169 on: July 15, 2018, 01:07:39 pm »
Well the Combat Air Strategy is definitely on for tomorrow, but what will it bring? Can we hope for a genuinely national project?

Offline muttbutt

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #170 on: July 16, 2018, 03:45:48 am »
Thanks to Tim Robinson,


Offline Harrier

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #171 on: July 16, 2018, 03:46:56 am »
And another from him.
BAe P.1216 Supersonic ASTOVL Aircraft: www.harrier.org.uk/P1216.htm

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #172 on: July 16, 2018, 03:55:50 am »
Surely this must warrant it's own thread now that we have a name for the project and some clearly defined aims?

Is it Team Tempest or just plain tempest?

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #173 on: August 01, 2018, 06:26:36 am »
The low cost UCAV being developed under LANCA is to have 2 phases of development and a flight demonstration according to Tony Osborne on Twitter. Open only to UK manufacturers.


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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #174 on: August 19, 2018, 12:59:24 pm »
Team Tempest

Team Tempest is the name of the RAF RCO led consortium responsible for the FCAS-TI series of technology demonstrations.

The conceptual model shown at Fairford and Farnborough does not have a name.

There is, as yet, no Tempest.

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #175 on: August 19, 2018, 01:54:46 pm »
The conceptual model shown at Fairford and Farnborough does not have a name.
There is, as yet, no Tempest.
Then this is BS? (well, I understand that Team Tempest =/= concept name, but whatever)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWATZoGyLq0&feature=youtu.be&t=228

UPD
yes, you are right - nowhere at the BAE, RR or MoD site I see Tempest as a fighter name
« Last Edit: August 19, 2018, 03:55:43 pm by flateric »
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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #176 on: August 19, 2018, 03:41:48 pm »
It's certainly a big hint as to what people think the new fighter should be called, when it's eventually defined and designed, but the concept shown at Fairford and Farnborough is a VERY long way from being the RAF's next fighter. That aircraft could still look VERY different - as discussed on the Tempest thread.

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #177 on: August 20, 2018, 12:26:26 am »
In fairness to myself there, I was questioning what to call the project within minutes of the launch and have since stopped calling the aircraft Tempest.

Not that there is anything better to call it, and there are still plenty of industry types calling it Tempest -if only as a form of shorthand.

I understand why Jackonicko needs to be more accurate in the reporting though.

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #178 on: August 20, 2018, 02:36:17 am »
Team Tempest (BAE Systems, Leonardo, MBDA and Rolls-Royce) was formed around the time of the MoD industry day on 13th March 2018. Flightglobal reported this was work on concepts for a low-cost unmanned combat air system demonstrator alongside the Anglo-French UCAV efforts.
The Aerosociety article posted in the LANCA thread splits out Team Tempest's involvement as broader FCAS concepts and the Rapid Capabilities Office (RCO) RFI issued around the same time for LANCA is a ‘Loyal Wingman’ low-cost UCAV as a separate but "potential part of the future combat air system.”
Then in July the Tempest is unveiled at Farnborough as a potential collaborative sixth-gen fighter platform, with Team Tempest seemingly behind it.

From my analysis it seems like the initial Flightglobal article was hinting at LANCA but whether Team Tempest is actively involved in LANCA is open to question, given the involvement of RCO and restriction to UK companies with involvement from university research partners etc., which seems to indicate a programme similar in scope and scale to MAGMA.
The quotes in the Aerosociety article by Air Vice Marshall Simon Rochelle clearly states Team Tempest involvement is to look at FCAS concepts. Plus there is still the Anglo-French programme of which little has been said, but presumably is still rumbling along, perhaps at slow pace.

Therefore I think we can discount that Team Tempest is leading LANCA at this stage, though they may well enter a proposal bid. Instead they are looking at the bigger hardware. FCAS is going to be a manned platform, a sixth-generation aircraft. Whatever thoughts might have led to Taranis have probably been swept aside by the European clamour for new fighters to replace Rafale, Typhoon and Gripen. The potential market and collaborations are simply too great to miss. Strike UCAVs have little or no export market (political implications too) so its natural a fighter platform is seen as a cash generator. This is where the bulk of the governments R&D spending will go.

Where does that leave LANCA? A low-cost demonstrator to add to the others in a dusty hangar? I doubt the MoD can contribute to a fighter programme and develop a homegrown UCAV at the same time but it makes a good case to retain a home industry by developing something cheaper at home to give FCAS a full national component. LANCA makes no sense if the MoD wants to wait until 2040 when FCAS is ready. My hunch is that LANCA might reach fruition sooner, perhaps a loyal wingman for F-35? France and Germany probably face the same problem. Making the fighter optionally manned offers a solution but its hardly the low-cost expendable strike platform that LANCA is aiming towards. Taranis and Neuron are similar high-end options that might be feasible within the shorter term (potentially ready before the fighter platform is) but the appetite seems to have shifted, perhaps the defence staffs are interested but the aerospace industry seems to be pushing fighters to any government that will listen (Airbus especially with Enders telling politicians not to interfere - shut up and open the cheque book).

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #179 on: August 20, 2018, 03:59:24 am »
Hood,

Like so many people, you're making the mistake of assuming that FCAS is a single platform. It isn't. Everyone who has got up and talked about it recognises that it will be a system of systems.

FCAS is not, in other words:

Quote
"going to be a manned platform, a sixth-generation aircraft."

FCAS will be much more than a manned platform. I don't think the Sixth generation tag is remotely useful, incidentally.

It's going to be a system of systems - just one element of which will be a manned platform. That means that it is absolutely 100% the plan to:

Quote
"contribute to a fighter programme and develop a homegrown UCAV at the same time."

There is no way that FCAS will not include other platforms - including a 'loyal wingman' kind of vehicle, smaller swarming UAVs, etc. I'd be astonished if LANCA (as a core component of the Future Combat Air System) isn't being managed by Team Tempest (and the RCO in particular) even if the contract for building it eventually goes outside the core companies who CURRENTLY comprise the Tempest team.

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #180 on: August 20, 2018, 05:04:46 am »
It's certainly a big hint as to what people think the new fighter should be called, when it's eventually defined and designed

But...well
« Last Edit: August 20, 2018, 05:07:08 am by flateric »
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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #181 on: August 20, 2018, 05:38:47 am »
Jackonicko,
You misread me. Of course FCAS will be a system with several component parts, that is plainly obvious. But the core platform will be a manned fighter/strike aircraft, that is the node of the airborne system and that is where the industry focus is. Air Vice Marshal Rochelle was quoted as saying of FCAS says: “It’s a platform within a systems of systems which is important in the future... There’s always a system within a system. The question for us is: how far do we go further forward in the conceptual ideas and what is the next natural evolution of those concepts?”. Whatever the Tempest mockup eventually emerges at will be with platform around which FCAS will sit.

As Gavin Williamson said "Team Tempest's activities will span work across 50-60 national demonstrations, covering aspects such as low-observability, advanced sensors, propulsion and future cockpit design, contained within an existing FCAS technology initiative." That's a lot of R&D work and they can't do everything, so it makes sense to bring in smaller partners for particular demonstrator models. I agree it makes sense for Team Tempest to have an oversight of all the technical aspects.

FCAS started in 2011 to identify and research unmanned technologies. In 2014 under the Lancaster House talks it became an Anglo-French programme, the government allocating £120M of its £200M unmanned research budget for the joint study phase designed to build on experience with Taranis and Neuron (£80M also went to further work on both). In March 2016 £1.54 billion was committed to a full scale demonstrator programme due to start at the end of 2017, with a first flight planned for 2025 and an operational system during the 2030s. But the full scale demonstrator never happened for whatever reason and Dassault by early 2018 were looking at Airbus' fighter programme instead.

It seems to me to be no coincidence that as France and Germany began studying a manned Eurofighter/Rafale replacement for the 2040s and BAE Systems began to look at its diminishing production line at Warton, that suddenly FCAS stopped being a purely unmanned technology demonstrator but has grown to encompass a manned Eurofighter replacement as well, including technologies required for future cockpits etc. FCAS has now also absorbed Rolls-Royce's future engine work which their chief engineer for future defence programmes Conrad Banks in Februrary 2018 stated was for futuristic programmes in general rather than FCAS-specific work.
In March 2018 Team Tempest was formed to look into FCAS concept, some 7 years after FCAS began, indicating whatever original concepts there were have been reviewed and revised. In July Flightglobal revealed BAE Systems had received a single-source award with 12 month contract for unspecified FCAS work, we can only conjecture what that might be.

FCAS still seems quite undefined, or at least everyone is holding their cards to their chest. Its clear that as it has evolved FCAS has had various national and multinational threads. If the UK does join one of the European programmes on offer its highly likely that the scope of FCAS will change again.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2018, 05:47:09 am by Hood »

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #182 on: August 22, 2018, 12:46:41 pm »
This could be the UK cranked delta version of the planform Dassault has been publicising in the past couple of years.
Slightly better versions and some more stuff on BAE Systems cranked kite FCAS configuration (it was BAE Systems pavilion at FIA'16 for a note)


« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 01:46:53 pm by flateric »
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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #183 on: August 23, 2018, 04:00:57 am »
Great find flateric!

The more I look at that model, the more it is apparent that it is the same as the French one, except the structure related to the British approach to the intake and engine.

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #184 on: August 24, 2018, 04:34:30 pm »
For a note: all FCAS/SCAF images/video galleries are gone from Dassault core site.
Just a couple of press-releases left.
There are FCAS interviews still at Dassault TV though.
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #185 on: August 29, 2018, 09:05:21 pm »
one more
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works


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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #187 on: February 28, 2019, 01:58:18 am »
It looks like, that the British-French FCAS project has been canceled.
Quote from: Helen Ch. @ChDefense
Ah. Pour celles et ceux qui se demandent ce qu'est devenu le programme FCAS franco-britannique lancé en novembre 2014 : les travaux ont été arrêtés, confirme Eric Trappier.
Twitter: https://twitter.com/ChDefense/status/1101035355057332224
Quote from: Dominic Perry @fg_domperry
More tests this year on @Dassault_OnAir Neuron demonstrator focused on stealth, confirms CEO Eric Trappier. However work on FCAS with "our British friends" has been discontinued.
Twitter: https://twitter.com/fg_domperry/status/1101035607550296064
Slán,
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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #188 on: February 28, 2019, 08:07:58 am »
This Flightglobal article has a few more snippets, the most important perhaps being that interest from Britain seemed to wane. Even Trappier seems unaware exactly why it fizzled out.
The demonstrator phase was due to start in 2017, so it seems the pullback, perhaps due to funding or change of political interests, took hold before 'Tempest' came on the scene.
It seems some low-level co-operation is being maintained.
It would be too tempting to say the Brexit guillotine imposed by the government that inexplicably cut us from things like Euratom, which had little to do with the EU, had a hand in the unraveling of all the 2010-era Anglo-French defence cooperation initiatives. The truth is probably more nuanced than that.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/dassault-confirms-end-of-anglo-french-ucav-work-456199/

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #189 on: February 28, 2019, 09:25:12 am »
The historians will have fun reading through the emails and PowerPoint, and interviewing in the future. The reasons for this will be pretty obvious.

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #190 on: February 28, 2019, 10:04:11 am »
The historians will have fun reading through the emails and PowerPoint, and interviewing in the future. The reasons for this will be pretty obvious.

Don't get me started on the B word red admiral.   >:(

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #191 on: February 28, 2019, 11:27:12 am »
The historians will have fun reading through the emails and PowerPoint, and interviewing in the future. The reasons for this will be pretty obvious.

Patisserie?
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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #192 on: March 01, 2019, 01:18:42 am »
Trappier seems to be laying out the arguments for not letting anyone interfere with his company's project. "One company or one country" sounds easy, but Dassault and Airbus are not one company (yet) and that assumes that the AdA and Luftwaffe have the same requirements in mind.
The cynic would say how would Dassault know about the multinational experience having not been part of one since the 1960s!

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/dassault-chief-warns-on-creating-eurofighter-20-f-456242/


The historians will have fun reading through the emails and PowerPoint, and interviewing in the future. The reasons for this will be pretty obvious.

I very much doubt much of the electronic source material will ever find its way to Kew or the company archives for us to read about. With 50 years to wait plus however long the Tempest is in service for (the 2040 introduction is barely halfway through the embargo period) we will all be dead or doddery old centenarians before we get the inside story. Hopefully our children or grandchildren will pick up the aviation historian bug and go have a look for us, assuming the software exists to read the files.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2019, 01:27:28 am by Hood »

Offline TomcatViP

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #193 on: March 01, 2019, 03:48:54 am »
You're too pessimistic (but I agree that the matters discussed in the latter posts brings anyone easily into this). In 50y from now, the SP forum will still be hotly debated by yet to be born forumers.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2019, 03:59:03 am by TomcatViP »

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #194 on: March 01, 2019, 07:28:15 pm »
The cynic would say how would Dassault know about the multinational experience having not been part of one since the 1960s!


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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #195 on: March 02, 2019, 04:27:47 am »
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/dassault-chief-warns-on-creating-eurofighter-20-f-456242/

Dassaults repeats demand to have most of the workshare whilst France puts in less money. I don't remember that working out well for them last time. Its almost like they don't know what "partner" means.

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #196 on: March 02, 2019, 05:11:55 am »
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/dassault-chief-warns-on-creating-eurofighter-20-f-456242/

Dassaults repeats demand to have most of the workshare whilst France puts in less money. I don't remember that working out well for them last time. Its almost like they don't know what "partner" means.

Here we go again.  Looks like Dassault have never learned from their past mistakes.

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #197 on: March 02, 2019, 06:29:28 am »
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/dassault-chief-warns-on-creating-eurofighter-20-f-456242/

Dassaults repeats demand to have most of the workshare whilst France puts in less money. I don't remember that working out well for them last time. Its almost like they don't know what "partner" means.

Here we go again.  Looks like Dassault have never learned from their past mistakes.

Not going to defend previous decisions by Dassault & France but trying to project that on current decision making in a very different context is perhaps overreaching.

And considering how Brexit and it’s impact is going, and the state of the current relationship between the current US administration and many of its closest allies, perhaps we should all be mindful of getting high and mighty about being a good “partner”.

And specifically on this topic it’s the UK that just “let down” France in their joint “FCAS” project.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2019, 06:32:08 am by kaiserd »

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #198 on: March 02, 2019, 08:06:19 am »
And specifically on this topic it’s the UK that just “let down” France in their joint “FCAS” project.

Certainly it seems the UK lost interest in the demonstrator by early 2018. (https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/brexit-throws-anglo-french-fcas-programme-into-doubt-446592/)
But interestingly Paris didn't put up the rest of the money for the demonstrator to satisfy Dassault either and since mid-2018 the focus on both sides of the channel has been the manned element of the FCAS system rather than the UCAV element.

Taranis and Neuron had proven the UCAV element, a further demonstrator might not have been that useful without a suitable manned 'wingman' for it to operate with and the complete combat system required. The new FCAS seems to be a more logical progression looking at the software first.


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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #199 on: March 02, 2019, 08:58:38 am »
And specifically on this topic it’s the UK that just “let down” France in their joint “FCAS” project.

That is the Dassault line...

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #200 on: March 02, 2019, 10:48:52 am »
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/dassault-chief-warns-on-creating-eurofighter-20-f-456242/

Dassaults repeats demand to have most of the workshare whilst France puts in less money. I don't remember that working out well for them last time. Its almost like they don't know what "partner" means.

It didn't worked out well ? how so ?
« Last Edit: March 02, 2019, 11:01:28 am by galgot »

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #201 on: March 02, 2019, 01:43:10 pm »
lol
Billion of French taxpayer hard gained € spent on something 10% better than a M2K... What a bargain! Add to that the crystallization of the french Esprit critique among decision makers and this might be the first aerospace program that make us fly backward!

So, no it didn't work "that well".
« Last Edit: March 02, 2019, 01:45:10 pm by TomcatViP »

Offline galgot

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #202 on: March 02, 2019, 01:55:06 pm »
lol
Billion of French taxpayer hard gained € spent on something 10% better than a M2K... What a bargain! Add to that the crystallization of the french Esprit critique among decision makers and this might be the first aerospace program that make us fly backward!

So, no it didn't work "that well".

I’m asking to the original poster Kitty… If he cares responding.
You, definitively you should consider applying for lordship :
https://www.lordtitles.co.uk
here, cheap…

Offline TomcatViP

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #203 on: March 02, 2019, 03:00:39 pm »
Kitty... ??? What a joke coming from someone that is probably a skinny 50lb 5ft tall alpha male.

If you can't cope with different opinions... don't join a forum. This is getting freaky. 
« Last Edit: March 02, 2019, 03:12:09 pm by TomcatViP »

Offline galgot

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #204 on: March 02, 2019, 03:11:50 pm »
You've sent me pm (was a good laugh, thanks btw) asking me to forget you, and now you respond to my post with your usual brightness... Though you  know my love for you... THIS is freaky :D

Offline TomcatViP

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #205 on: March 02, 2019, 03:13:20 pm »
go to bed. Have some rest. Thank you.

Offline galgot

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #206 on: March 02, 2019, 03:18:29 pm »
Sure! good night, thanks to you :)

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #207 on: March 02, 2019, 03:38:19 pm »
I have yet to see a project of any kind, involving the french, that went anywhere worth going.  Dumbed down cheapened products for huge amounts of outlay, not much of it french.  Personally I would leave them to develop their own products and do likewise.  It would be cheaper and we would have a better product at the end.

Offline Deltafan

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #208 on: March 02, 2019, 04:05:46 pm »
something 10% better than a M2K...

With so much tons of evidence and facts, what a complex, elaborate and credible analysis... ::)

And don't forget the masochistic Egyptians, Indians and Qataris who ordered too (for billions € too) a plane 10% better than the M2K they already have too... ::)



Offline galgot

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #209 on: March 02, 2019, 04:18:53 pm »
And had France not done this selfish silliness rafalish thing, we would have had a beautifully designed fighter like the Typhoon, and would have had to order the all mighty F-35 later as a striker and for the carrier... Oh god, how stupid we are, it would certainly have been oh so much cheaper..
« Last Edit: March 02, 2019, 04:39:28 pm by galgot »

Offline Deltafan

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #210 on: March 02, 2019, 04:24:57 pm »
I have yet to see a project of any kind, involving the french, that went anywhere worth going.  Dumbed down cheapened products for huge amounts of outlay, not much of it french.  Personally I would leave them to develop their own products and do likewise.  It would be cheaper and we would have a better product at the end.
-In 2010, the French National Audit Office said that the Rafale program has increased by 16.5% since the beginning of the program
https://www.lesechos.fr/10/04/2015/lesechos.fr/0204293660236_le-rafale-en-cinq-questions.htm
(translation of the relevant sentence) : "These figures show that the unit price increased by 16.5% compared to the original estimate of 1988)

-In 2011, the British National Audit Office said that the EF program has increased by 75% since the beginning of the program
https://www.nao.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/1011755.pdf

For better product or not It would be too long to bring here tons of anglo-saxonians articles which say since 30 years that the EF is better and tons of french articles which say since 30 years that the Rafale is better.

Good night ;)


Offline Deltafan

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #211 on: March 02, 2019, 04:30:39 pm »
And had France not done this selfish silliness rafalish thing, we would have had a beautifully designed fighter like the Typhoon, and would have had to order the all mighty F-35 later as a striker and for the carrier... Oh god, how stupid we are, it would certainly have been much cheaper..
and Blair even mentioned for a while the possibility of a navalized EF (one of the reasons for the disagreement between the countries of the EF consortium with France when the program had to be common ;) )

Well, maybe if everyone agrees that the builders and the users of the EF are satisfied and that the builder and users of the Rafale are also satisfied, it would avoid unnecessary discussions that lead to nothing, since everyone will remain anyway on his opinion ;)

And for NGF and Tempest II, they have around 22 years to success or collapse. It may be better to judge at this time what has worked or not (even if, if they succeed, the builders and users of everyone will say that theirs is the best ;D )

« Last Edit: March 02, 2019, 04:48:48 pm by Deltafan »

Offline red admiral

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #212 on: March 03, 2019, 12:33:55 am »
It didn't worked out well ? how so ?

I don't remember Dassault leading a European partnership for a new fighter last time that produced more than double the number of aircraft.

If Rafale worked out so for Dassault and France well last time, why are they pushing for a multinational approach this time around?

Offline kaiserd

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #213 on: March 03, 2019, 12:51:55 am »
It didn't worked out well ? how so ?

I don't remember Dassault leading a European partnership for a new fighter last time that produced more than double the number of aircraft.

If Rafale worked out so for Dassault and France well last time, why are they pushing for a multinational approach this time around?

By the same logic why would the UK now be undertaking a “solo run” re: whatever will emerge from “Project Tempest” when their last sole successful solo combat aircraft development was the first generation Harrier approx. 50 years ago and even that followed a string of failed “solo” developments with their international cooperation combat aircraft projects having a far better track record of success.

In the current context France & Dassault appear to see the merits of staying in the combat aircraft game going forward by teaming with Germany (principally) and Airbus.

While the UK and BaE are in contrast left investing in technology to demonstrate usefulness to potential partners while hopping/ praying they can build partnerships they realistically need for such a project to go anywhere in the future.
Mainly because of the “B” word....
« Last Edit: March 03, 2019, 01:07:38 am by kaiserd »

Offline galgot

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #214 on: March 03, 2019, 02:16:31 am »
It didn't worked out well ? how so ?

I don't remember Dassault leading a European partnership for a new fighter last time that produced more than double the number of aircraft.

If Rafale worked out so for Dassault and France well last time, why are they pushing for a multinational approach this time around?

You can't remember that because it never happened. Dassault never "leaded" a European partnership for a new fighter. So there is no way you know how it would have turned out… The point wasn't to be in a Euro fighter program at all cost, it was to be in it at terms they would be sure it would have been profitable to them, and to keep their knowhow in fighter planes. If these conditions weren't there, why be in?
And even more, if the plane that was to be build wasn't the one their principal customer (France) wanted.

They are pushing now for a multinational approach because, (a) they know a next gen fighter will be too expensive for a single country to finance, (b) they agree with it as long as they have the lead on the airframe design (as agreed by Fr/Gr govs so far), (c) and it's been agreed (so far) that the aircraft spec requirements will be defined only by the two starting project countries (Fr/Gr), which is at least better than having 5/6 countries asking what they want.

As far as Rafale, Dassault is very happy (and making lots €€) with it, and AdlA and Marine are delighted.
Just as Bae is happy with Typhoon, and RAF/RN are delighted with their Typhoon and F-35s…
« Last Edit: March 03, 2019, 02:27:57 am by galgot »

Offline red admiral

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #215 on: March 03, 2019, 03:32:31 am »
I find some of the views expressed here bizarre.

Dassault uber alles!

Offline galgot

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #216 on: March 03, 2019, 03:45:34 am »
As you like… I myself find bizarre that you think it didn’t worked out well for Dassault, when they are still in the fighter business and selling planes. And the AdlA/Marine have the plane they wanted and needed.

(Dassault (Marcel) being originally named Bloch and deported, the "uber alles!" is a nice touch…  ??? ...)

Offline Antonio

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #217 on: March 03, 2019, 04:35:28 am »
Please try to avoid going personal. FCAS could end as a conflictive topic if we put the focus in European Aerospace Industry rivalry only.

Offline _Del_

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #218 on: March 03, 2019, 05:27:52 am »
I know politics made the split mostly inevitable, but I cannot help but imagine that both sides would have ultimately been happier with a joint product. The cost savings on development alone would be a bundle. Smaller workshare is offset by a larger program/production run. Which would have helped drop unit price for exports outside of the consortium, leading to possibly even more sales.
I have no dog in the fight. I sort of prefer the Rafale approach, but the Tiff is probably better suited to the UK requirements. Hard not to imagine that both parties could have been content, if not elated, about a compromise design, especially in light of the financial savings.
I don't think there is enough money/demand to support two healthy and independent 5/6-gen strike fighter programs out of Europe again. It's hard to believe neither "side" sees this.

Offline Foo Fighter

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #219 on: March 03, 2019, 06:43:26 am »
Considering the 'potential' savings from scale economics, it would make sense for a europe wide collaboration but frankly put, something always gets in the way.  This creates a situation where US companies gain the advantage and sales.  Very sad.

Offline galgot

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #220 on: March 03, 2019, 07:01:12 am »
Indeed. The problem are not much the Euro manufacturers, Bae, Dassault, Saab, you name it. They are working for their best interests and it’s understandable, it’s the business.
They have almost as many manufacturers in The US, that are also working each for their own interests, only there they deal with ONE very rich admin, where in Europe the Euro manufacturers have to deal with xx admins with less and less money demanding different things… So I wouldn’t put the blame on X company against Y company.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2019, 08:34:15 am by galgot »

Offline LowObservable

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Re: Future Combat Air System (FCAS)
« Reply #221 on: March 03, 2019, 08:18:37 am »
Rafale has been a well executed program in many ways, given PCW budget constraints (nuclear vs. conventional) and force structure: the smaller PCW air force had a very young fleet because the older F1s, IVs &c were retired, leaving a lot of very young M2Ks, but the Aeronavale could only stretch the F-8 so far. Hence the slow delivery starting with the very basic F1 standard; F2 and F3 arrived pretty much according to the late-90s schedule.

I can't blame Dassault in the least for not wanting to see a repetition of the Panavia/Eurofighter political problems. With four parliamentary democracies involved, it's almost inevitable that one or more will be in the throes or aftermath of an election whenever a decision has to be taken on a production tranche or upgrade investment, and while at present everyone is united against the Pootster there is no guarantee that this will prevail over the time taken to develop a major military capability.