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Author Topic: Royal Canadian Navy: General Purpose Frigate (Cancelled 1963).  (Read 9158 times)

Offline Abraham Gubler

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Re: Royal Canadian Navy: General Purpose Frigate (Cancelled 1963).
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2016, 07:39:04 pm »
Another possibility is just that the antenna in the sketch design was drawn in with a circle giving a maximum reach with stabilization and training so as to provide physical deconfliction with the rest of the ship. The artist who painted the illustration could have interperated this outline as a solid radome.
"There is a tendency in our planning to confuse the unfamiliar with the improbable." Thomas Schelling

Offline Grey Havoc

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Re: Royal Canadian Navy: General Purpose Frigate (Cancelled 1963).
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2016, 01:50:15 am »
Wouldn't be the first time something like that has happened.
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Offline TomS

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Re: Royal Canadian Navy: General Purpose Frigate (Cancelled 1963).
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2016, 01:50:38 pm »
I think this thesis contains a lot of useful information for this topic:

https://qspace.library.queensu.ca/bitstream/1974/8298/1/Mayne_Richard_O_finalsubmission_200804_PhD.pdf

It deals with the various evolutions of General Purpose Destroyer, General Purpose Frigate, DDH, etc.  Very illuminating.

Offline starviking

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Re: Royal Canadian Navy: General Purpose Frigate (Cancelled 1963).
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2016, 03:47:14 pm »
Great find!

I note there are design evolutions of the GPF in the appendices.

Offline JFC Fuller

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Re: Royal Canadian Navy: General Purpose Frigate (Cancelled 1963).
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2016, 04:00:50 pm »
Wonderful document! Look carefully and it tells us that the image at the beginning of this thread is the September 1963 design of the GPF, essentially the final version. It also confirms the twin mounting is a 5"/38. It also gives us the designations of the radar fit, the main radar being the AN/SPS-48.

Offline Pioneer

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Re: Royal Canadian Navy: General Purpose Frigate (Cancelled 1963).
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2017, 01:01:54 am »
Still no drawings of this General Purpose Frigate project:-X

Does anyone involved with Shipbucket Forum know if someone's done a profile work of this Canadian General Purpose Frigate project?

Regards
Pioneer
And remember…remember the glory is not the exhortation of war, but the exhortation of man.
Mans nobility, made transcendent in the fiery crucible of war.
Faithfulness and fortitude.
Gentleness and compassion.
I am honored to be your brother.”

— Lt Col Ralph Honner DSO M

Offline Tzoli

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Re: Royal Canadian Navy: General Purpose Frigate (Cancelled 1963).
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2017, 03:52:32 am »
Still no drawings of this General Purpose Frigate project:-X

Does anyone involved with Shipbucket Forum know if someone's done a profile work of this Canadian General Purpose Frigate project?

Regards
Pioneer


Well Conway's all the world Fighting ships 1947-1991 have only a side drawing of it:


And it states 5"/54 not 5/38 as we earlier discussed

Offline TomS

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Re: Royal Canadian Navy: General Purpose Frigate (Cancelled 1963).
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2017, 04:09:03 am »
Conway's is a bit confused regarding the gun.  The one in the drawing is clearly not a Mk42, and the drawings in the dissertation above (which the Conway's drawing seem to be related to) clearly call out a 5"/38 twin.

Offline Brickmuppet

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Re: Royal Canadian Navy: General Purpose Frigate (Cancelled 1963).
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2017, 10:03:44 am »
Still no drawings of this General Purpose Frigate project:-X

Does anyone involved with Shipbucket Forum know if someone's done a profile work of this Canadian General Purpose Frigate project?

Regards
Pioneer

Well, the PDF posted by Tom S. has not only a sketch. but a set of schematics detailed right down to the location of the heads. I was rather surprised that this was as fully developed a design as it was.

Offline Pioneer

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Re: Royal Canadian Navy: General Purpose Frigate (Cancelled 1963).
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2017, 01:34:26 pm »

Well Conway's all the world Fighting ships 1947-1991 have only a side drawing of it:


And it states 5"/54 not 5/38 as we earlier discussed

Thanks Tzoli, your a gentleman!!  ;D

Regards
Pioneer
And remember…remember the glory is not the exhortation of war, but the exhortation of man.
Mans nobility, made transcendent in the fiery crucible of war.
Faithfulness and fortitude.
Gentleness and compassion.
I am honored to be your brother.”

— Lt Col Ralph Honner DSO M

Offline Pioneer

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Re: Royal Canadian Navy: General Purpose Frigate (Cancelled 1963).
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2017, 02:00:19 pm »
Thanks Brickmuppet, and of course Tom.S!
Ironically, I did skim through this great document, but didn't get to its end!  :-[

Thanks again for the heads-up

Regards
Pioneer
And remember…remember the glory is not the exhortation of war, but the exhortation of man.
Mans nobility, made transcendent in the fiery crucible of war.
Faithfulness and fortitude.
Gentleness and compassion.
I am honored to be your brother.”

— Lt Col Ralph Honner DSO M

Offline Abraham Gubler

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Re: Royal Canadian Navy: General Purpose Frigate (Cancelled 1963).
« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2017, 06:13:54 pm »
Conway's is a bit confused regarding the gun.  The one in the drawing is clearly not a Mk42, and the drawings in the dissertation above (which the Conway's drawing seem to be related to) clearly call out a 5"/38 twin.

Richard Mayne's "The Annapolis Riddle" (the .pdf dissertation attached above) makes clear that the gun for the GPF was the Mk 38 twin 5"/38 of WWII fame. Looking at the deck plans it would appear to have been chosen because of its minimal below deck footprint. Compared to the Mk 42 5"/52 the Mk 38 twin mounting saves about 14 tonnes in weight but does not require a below decks loading drum and hoist. The GPF has the shell and cartridge rooms right below the mount on no. 2 deck with no magazine in the hold. The Mk 42 mount would require an additional gun room below the mount for the loading drums. The GPF would appear to be a very tightly designed ship with priority going to neatly arranged crew spaces than resilience. Most notably in there being no below waterline magazines for the guns, torpedoes and mortars.
"There is a tendency in our planning to confuse the unfamiliar with the improbable." Thomas Schelling

Offline Pioneer

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Re: Royal Canadian Navy: General Purpose Frigate (Cancelled 1963).
« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2017, 11:18:51 pm »
Ok, just stumbled upon this:

Quote
In Friedman's "Network-Centric Warfare" there is an interesting footnote at p. 311 which talks about those neverweres.

Eight ships, somewhat smaller than contemporary Brooke class U.S. DEGs (398 x 46 vs 415 x 43 ft, 3,300 tons), were included in the projected 1963 program.
Into this smaller hull would have been squeezed much more than in a DEG: one twin 5-inch/38 mount (Signaal N26 fire control system), one Mk.22 missile launcher (16 Tartars with two Mk.74 directors), two Sea Mauler short-range launchers (72 missiles), two triple Mk.32 torpedo tubes, and a single Limbo mortar (60 projectiles).
There would also be a U.S.-type light helicopter (the primary ASW standoff weapon).
Complement was given as 236, compared to 246 for the nonautomated U.S. DEG with a comparable missile battery.
Estimated cost was $34.25 million.
The Canadians adopted the Tartar missile in hopes that the U.S. Navy would develop the projected ASW version of the missile (then unfunded), to carry either a homing torpedo or a depth bomb.
Where the U.S. Navy relied on a massive bow-mounted low frequency sonar (SQS-26), the Canadians held to medium-frequency sets but included a variable-depth sonar aft, which would have made processing at least as complex.
An unusual feature was a requirement to support two hundred troops for up to 15 days.
The design emphasized human engineering, automation (she could steam with her machinery spaces unmanned), and centralized command/control.
Much of the equipment had not yet been developed.

(Source: https://forum.worldofwarships.eu/topic/4250-canadian-navy-never-were-designs/

I particularly find the notion of an ASW derivative of the Tartar missile very interesting, to which I was completely unaware of!!

Regards
Pioneer
And remember…remember the glory is not the exhortation of war, but the exhortation of man.
Mans nobility, made transcendent in the fiery crucible of war.
Faithfulness and fortitude.
Gentleness and compassion.
I am honored to be your brother.”

— Lt Col Ralph Honner DSO M

Offline starviking

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Re: Royal Canadian Navy: General Purpose Frigate (Cancelled 1963).
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2017, 12:14:44 am »

I particularly find the notion of an ASW derivative of the Tartar missile very interesting, to which I was completely unaware of!!

Regards
Pioneer

I wonder if it's a mistake? Could the Canadians have been wanting ASROC integrated with their Tartar launcher?

Personally, I'd think there'd be way too much design change to turn the Tartar missile into a short-range ASW weapon-delivery system to make it worthwhile.

Offline TomS

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Re: Royal Canadian Navy: General Purpose Frigate (Cancelled 1963).
« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2017, 09:53:05 am »
Ok, just stumbled upon this:

Quote
In Friedman's "Network-Centric Warfare" there is an interesting footnote at p. 311 which talks about those neverweres.

Eight ships, somewhat smaller than contemporary Brooke class U.S. DEGs (398 x 46 vs 415 x 43 ft, 3,300 tons), were included in the projected 1963 program.
[snip]
(Source: https://forum.worldofwarships.eu/topic/4250-canadian-navy-never-were-designs/

I particularly find the notion of an ASW derivative of the Tartar missile very interesting, to which I was completely unaware of!!

Regards
Pioneer

FWIW, this design seems to be almost exactly the 1963 GPF outlined in the "The Annapolis Riddle" (the dissertation earlier in this thread).  See Annex B (p 458).  The only change is a reduction of 4 crew and a rounding error in price. 

Nothing in that document mentions ASW Tartar, and it seems detailed enough that the topic would have come up if it was a serious factor in RCN decision-making.  ASROC and Tartar acquisition were closely intertwined, so perhaps Friedman misunderstood a comment about the RCN wanting both Tartar and ASW capabilities from the US.