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Author Topic: Georges Sablier Type Designations  (Read 11420 times)

Offline Apophenia

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Georges Sablier Type Designations
« on: May 07, 2011, 05:48:09 pm »

Georges Sablier (and Aviación Vizcaína SA) Type Designations

Designation Style: some current sources display Sablier designations as S-xx. Contemporary documents, including Sablier plan pamphlets always display designations as Sablier type xx.

At some point in the mid-1930s, Georges Sablier entered into an agreement with the Basque firm, Aviación Vizcaína SA. This seems to have resulted in a plethora of designs (some quite ambitious for a homebuild designer) but there is no evidence that a new design sequence was started. That said, some type numbers (eg: type 10) are repeated.

Type Dates: treat all dates with caution. For example, the type 8 (Sablier Sport) is listed by at least one source as a 1936 design. Yet a Norman newspaper (L'Ouest-Eclair) reports Sablier flying his "biplan Chanute" glider at Vauvilie on 09 Aug 1923.*

Some sources apply the date of plan booklet publication to Sablier designs. Others apply the date that the first homebuilder completed and/or flew their creation.

Missing Designations: that L'Ouest-Eclair article also mentions "un monoplan parasol de 35 kilos, avec 11 mètres carés de surface". No designations are provided for either type. It's possible that this Sablier parasol monoplane glider is the type 7 or type 9 missing from our sequence.

Around the same time (1922), Sablier built a tailless, swept monoplane glider. This 9m span glider was in no sense a parasol so it probably represents another 'missing' type number.
http://www.maquettes-planeurs.ch/dbj2mcl/planeurs-machines/planeur-fiche_0.php/?code=1137

Sablier's 1936 publication Manuel pratique de Construction des Planeurs et Motoplaneurs: 2e édition entièrement also features a number of otherwise unseen design variations. Some of these are motoplaneur variations on glider themes. Going by the type 19, it seems unlikely that Sablier applied distinct designations (or even type suffixes) to these motor glider adaptations. On the other hand, one that seems to deserve a distinct designation is a type 20-like motoplaneur featuring a remotely-driven engine.

Built or Project?: Georges Sablier published plans for homebuilders, he did not produce airframes for sale. As such, 'Project' status basically means that no builder was found.

Offline Apophenia

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Re: Georges Sablier Type Designations
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2011, 05:51:12 pm »
Georges Sablier Type Designations
______________________________

Sablier type 1 -- 1922 tailless, swept-wing monoplane glider, span 9.00 m
 - Type 1: (Initial) Open fuselage structure, unfaired main u/c legs
 - Type 1: (Mod) Faired-in cockpit area and main undercarriage legs
 -- * For Congrès expérimental de vol sans moteur de Combegrasse (Auvergne)
 -- Sablier type 1 is listed by j2mcl Planeurs as Sablier Type 01
 -- https://www.j2mcl-planeurs.net/dbj2mcl/planeurs-machines/planeur-fiche_0int.php

Sablier type 2 -- [??] Poss. the same as Type Sport (qv, below)

Sablier type 3 -- 1923 single-seat parasol monoplane glider, span 6.80 m
 - Type 3: For the 1923 Congrès expérimental Vauville
 -- https://www.j2mcl-planeurs.net/dbj2mcl/planeurs-machines/planeur-fiche_0int.php

Sablier type 4 - 1932, single-seat parasol-monoplane avionnette, 6.70 m span*
 - Type 4: aka Sablier type 4 modèle 39 (likely ref. to 1939 edition plan booklet)
 -- * 6.11 m according to another specification table pub. by G. Sablier
 -- Engine options: 25 hp AVA,** 18 hp Clerget, 15 hp JAP, 11 hp Train
 -- ** Presumably referring to AVA's Type 4A-00 air-cooled 2-stroke HO-4
 -- 1955 amateur build, 1 x 18 hp Aubier-Dunne horiz-opposed 2-cyl engine
 -- Type 4/52: Motor glider devel., 1 x 12 hp Coventry Victor, span 7.182 m
 -- See avion ancien's Reply #12 on Page 1 of this topic

Sablier type 5 -- [??]
Sablier type 6 -- [??]

Sablier type 7 -- 1930 side-by-side 2-seat tailless glider,* span 12.00 m
 -- * Structure reinforced to take a 25-to-50 hp engine at a later date
 -- https://www.j2mcl-planeurs.net/dbj2mcl/planeurs-machines/planeur-fiche_0int.php

Sablier type 8 -- 1922 Chanute-style biplane training hang-glider, span 4.80 m
 - Type 8: aka Sablier Sport* or Biplan Sablier, 3.5 m long, x 10 built
 -- * Same name as much larger Chanute-style biplane glider (poss. Type 2)
 -- https://www.j2mcl-planeurs.net/dbj2mcl/planeurs-machines/planeur-fiche_0int.php

Sablier type 9 -- [??] Poss. same as Grand Sport glider (qv, below)

Sablier type 10 - [Duplicate designation]
 - Type 10: 1929 school glider, box-beam fuselage,* thick wing, span 9.80 m
 -- https://www.j2mcl-planeurs.net/dbj2mcl/planeurs-machines/planeur-fiche_0int.php
 -- * Built 1939 as S-10 Modèle 1939 with Pratt truss tubular rear-fuselage str.
 - type 10: [Project] tandem 2-seat parasol monoplane trainer/multi-use a/c
 - type 10 Vizcaína Aviación: [Project] 4-seat parasol monoplane multi-use a/c
 -- type 10 Vizcaína Aviación: 1 x 180 hp Jacobs (?? LA-1 7-cyl radial ??)*

[* This image may show a type 10 with 2-cyl (?? Aubier-Dunne ??) engine]
 -- http://aircollection.pagesperso-orange.fr/images/histoire/sablieravion.JPG

Sablier type 11 - 1936, parasol Planeur de Performance (high-performance sailplane)
 - Type 11: aka S-11: wooden constr., fabric-covered flying surfaces, 14 m span
 -- http://www.j2mcl-planeurs.net/dbj2mcl/planeurs-machines/planeur-fiche_0.php/?code=2602

Sablier type 12 - 1932,  tandem 2-seat parasol monoplane avionnette, span 9.90 m
 - Type 12: Built by 'Ateliers Guédon' (?? Joseph Guédon ??) & Vizcaína Aviación
 -- Type 12: aka S-12, engines up to 100 hp (Rhône, Anzani, Salmson, Renault, Walter)

Sablier type 13 - [??]

Sablier type 14 - 1930, single-seat ab initio training glider, 9.00 m span*, x 16
 - Type 14: aka S-14: wooden constr., Warren truss tubular rear-fuselage structure
 -- [* NB: am44.ifrance.com says 10.8m span and only 12 x Sablier type 14s built]
 -- https://www.j2mcl-planeurs.net/dbj2mcl/planeurs-machines/planeur-fiche_0int.php
 - Type 14bis: Type 14 deriv. with larger, wire-braced wings, span 11.80 m, x ??
 -- https://www.j2mcl-planeurs.net/dbj2mcl/planeurs-machines/planeur-fiche_0int.php

Sablier type 15 - [??]

Sablier type 16 - [Project] 1929, single-seat parasol ab initio training glider
 - Type 16: aka S-16: Simplified type 10/S-10 study, 'monobloc' rear fuselage
 -- https://www.j2mcl-planeurs.net/dbj2mcl/planeurs-machines/planeur-fiche_0int.php

Sablier type 17 - [??]

Sablier type 18 - 1931, tandem 2-seat parasol training glider, span 12.80 m, x 6
 - Type 18: aka S-18, basically engineless S-12, optional skids or wheeled u/c
 -- http://aircollection.pagesperso-orange.fr/images/denis1.jpg
 -- https://www.j2mcl-planeurs.net/dbj2mcl/planeurs-machines/planeur-fiche_0int.php

Sablier type 19 - 1930, single-seat podded-fuselage school glider, 6 built*
 - Type 19: Semi-metallic structure glider for amateur or prof. production
 -- aka S-19: Rear fuselage boom structure related to Type 20, span 9.80 m
 -- https://www.j2mcl-planeurs.net/dbj2mcl/planeurs-machines/planeur-fiche_0int.php
 - Type 19 motoplaneur: motor glider version, Aubier-Dunne motorcycle engine
 - type 19A : 2-seat tandem deriv., aka S-19A, sources vary on wing span**
 -- ** Claudel says 10.83 m span, others 12.50 m or even 13.30 m span
 -- http://claudel.dopp.free.fr/Les_planeurs/Histoire/Georges_Sablier/Georges_Sablier_machines.htm
 -- https://www.j2mcl-planeurs.net/dbj2mcl/planeurs-machines/planeur-fiche_0int.php
 - Type 19 Biplace Motoplaneur: 1936 Vizcaína Aviación 2-seat motor glider
 -- Type 19 Biplace Motoplaneur powered by 18 hp Aubier-Dunne or Szekeley
 -- NB: Vizcaína Aviación motor glider prob. derived from 2-seat Type 19A
 -- https://www.j2mcl-planeurs.net/dbj2mcl/planeurs-machines/planeur-fiche_0int.php
 - Type 19 Vizcaína Aviación: 1936 prod'n, fully enclosed fuselage structure
 - Type 19A (II): Slightly revised 1962 prod. vers., aka S-19A, span 10.83 m

[* Type 19 gliders built by the Ateliers Legouge for the following Aéro-Clubs: Champagne, Eure, Altkirch, Créteil, Sidi Bel-Abbès, Ain M'Lila Douoe, Le Ailes Enghiennoises, and the Agence Retheloise (Aviation division).]

Sablier type 20 - 1931, single-seat open-frame school glider, 12 built
 - Type 20: aka S-20, parasol wing, vert. twin-boom rear fuselage struct.
 -- Simplified Type 16 project struct., 'monobloc' rear fuselage, span 9.80 m
 -- http://aircollection.pagesperso-orange.fr/images/histoire/sablierhermine.jpg
 -- https://www.j2mcl-planeurs.net/dbj2mcl/planeurs-machines/planeur-fiche_0int.php

Sablier type 21 - [Project] 1930 2-seat tandem school glider, span 10.00 m
 - Type 21: 2nd pilot under parasol wing, steel-tube wing structure
 -- https://www.j2mcl-planeurs.net/dbj2mcl/planeurs-machines/planeur-fiche_0int.php

Sablier type 22 - [??]

Sablier type 23 - 1932, 2-seat tandem parasol training sailplane, span 12.04 m
 - Type 23: Sim. to S-11 except refined fuselage, mid-mounted stab., 'comma' tail

Sablier type 24 - 1931 single-seat parasol wing training glider, span 9.00 m
 - Type 24: Dismountable tail beam and 3-part wings, see Reply #9
 -- Le Kersaint: 1932, experimental longitudinal stabilization mast
 -- Eriann-built for Eng. Charles de Rougé, aka de Rougé Le Kersaint
 -- see Retrofit's Reply #8, below

Sablier type 26 - Hydro, 1932 twin-float single-seat glider, span 10.98 m
 - Type 26: Essentially a type 14 glider with twin float undercarriage
 -- https://www.j2mcl-planeurs.net/dbj2mcl/planeurs-machines/planeur-fiche_0int.php

Sablier type 27 - [Project] 1931 single-seat shoulder wing/parasol avionette
 - Type 27: (??) No other details

Sablier type 28 - [Project] 1931 single-seat parasol school glider, span 9.77 m
 - Type 28: A simple training glider design using the wings of the type 14
 -- Type 28 was to be built to accept a small, auxiliary nose-mounted engine

Sablier type 29 - [Project] 1932 single-seat parasol light a/c, span 9.77 m
 - Type 29: 1 x 25 hp Anzani radial (or similarly-rated powerplant)

Sablier type 30 - [Project] Multi-use twin-engined low-wing monoplane
 - Type 30: 2 x radial engines, spatted main u/c, military or civil a/c
 -- Type 30 was to be built by Vizcaína Aviación

Sablier type 31 - [Project] 1932 single-seat low-wing light a/c, span 6.60 m
 - Type 31: 1 x 40 hp Salmson AD.9 (or other engines rated at 60-120 hp)

Sablier type 32 - [Project] 1932 single-seat school glider, span 12.90 m
 - Type 32: Box-beam rear fuselage incorporates kingpin, wire-braced wings

Sablier type 33 - [Project] 1932 single-seat biplane light a/c, span 6.60 m
 - Type 33: Derived from type 31 design, shown with cowled radial engine

Sablier type 34 - (??)

Sablier type 35 - (??)

Sablier type 36 - [Project] 1st desig. allocation, 1932 glider
 - Type 36: Simplified type 14 single-seat parasol glider, span 8.60 m
 -- https://www.j2mcl-planeurs.net/dbj2mcl/planeurs-machines/planeur-fiche_0int.php

Sablier type 36 - [Project] 2nd desig. allocation, 193? light a/c
 - Type 36: Multi-use biplane* trainer, 1 x tractor 4-cyl inline
 -- * Claudel says 'Monoplan' but shows biplane arrangement
 -- 2nd allocation Type 30 was to be built by Vizcaína Aviación

Sablier type 37 - (??)

Sablier type 38 - (??)

Sablier type 39 - [Project] 1932 single-seat parasol light a/c, span 7.02 m
 - Type 39: Reduced scale Type 12, 1 x 18 hp Clerget or 17 hp Salmson 3-cyl

Sablier type 40 - [Project] 1936 parasol monoplane (1-seat?) avionnette
 - Type 40: 1 x cowled 60 hp Le Blond 5-cylinder radial engine

Sablier type 41 - (??)

Sablier type 42 - [Project] 19?? low-wing multi-seat cabin monoplane
 - Type 42: Vizcaína Aviación tourer/trainer, 1 x 6-cyl inline

Sablier type (??)

Sablier type 50 - [Project] Twin-engine multi-use high-wing monoplane
 - Type 50: Vizcaína Aviación civil/military a/c, 2 x radial engines
 -- Type 50 drawing shows parasol wings and pax windows fore & aft

Sablier type 51 - (??)

Sablier type 52 - 1952 single-seat parasol motor glider, span 7.00 m
 - Type 52: aka Sablier T52, 1 x 12 hp Coventry Victor or 24 hp Solo
 -- https://www.j2mcl-planeurs.net/dbj2mcl/planeurs-machines/planeur-fiche_0int.php

Sablier type 53 - (??)

Sablier type 54 - (??) same as Type 4/52?

Sablier type ... (??)

Sablier type 61 - [Project] 2-seat tandem biplane tourer, span 8.40 m
 - Type 61: 1 x 95-150 hp (Renault, Cirrus, Fiat, Walter, Salmson, etc.)

Sablier type 62 - [Project] low-wing cantilever monoplane trainer
 - Type 62:  Vizcaína Aviación civil/military a/c, 1 x radial engine
 -- Drawing show single-seater, 2-row radial, and monocoque fuselage

Sablier type ... (??)

Sablier type 68 - [Project] Single-seat parasol aerobatic/sport a/c
 - Type 68: 1 x 80 hp Le Rhône rotary, spatted main u/c, span 8.40 m

Sablier type 82 - [Project] 2/4-seat parasol monoplane trainer
 - Type 82: Vizcaína Aviación multi-use a/c, liquid-cooled inline (??)

Sablier type 94 - [Project] high-winged cabin monoplane sports a/c
 - Type 94: Vizcaína Aviación, 1 x 4-cyl inline

Sablier type 100 - Single-seat parasol avionnette, span 9.92 m
 - Type 100: Vizcaína Aviación, various engine types offered*
 -- * Anzani, Gnome, Szeckeley, Train, Cirrus, Mikron, Mathis, etc.

Sablier type 140 - 1936 single-seat motor glider, span 7.22 m
 - Type 140: High wing, spatted main wheels, length 5.597 m

Sablier type 300 - Single-seat parasol avionnette, span 7.32 m
 - Type 300: 1 x 35-40 hp Volkswagen or 65 hp Continental HO-4

Sablier type 400 - (??)

Sablier type 500 - 19?? 2-seat low-wing avionnette, span 8.55 m
 - Type 500: One-piece wing, 1 x 45 hp Mengin HO-2 engine

Sablier type 600 - (??)
Sablier type 700 - (??)

Sablier type 800 - 19?? 2-seat side-by-side avionnette, span 9.20 m
 - Type 800: Wing-braced shoulder wing, 1 x 40/45 hp Mengin HO-2


Undesignated Sablier Designs (or Unknown Sablier Designation)


Type Sport - 1923 fuselageless Chanute-type biplane glider, span 11.00 m
 - Type Sport: For 1923 Congrès expérimental de Vauville, aka type 2 (??)
 -- https://www.j2mcl-planeurs.net/dbj2mcl/planeurs-machines/planeur-fiche_0int.php

Type Grand Sport - 19?? improved Chanute-type biplane glider, span 5.20 m
 - Type Grand Sport: Optional engine (eg: 10 hp McCulloch), (?? built ??)

Peulet Biplace Marcel Guittard - 1934 2-seat basic training glider
 -- Sablier Type 19 deriv. with box-girder frame fuselage structure
 -- Designed by Peulet (??), built at Aéro-Club de Créteil
 -- https://www.j2mcl-planeurs.net/dbj2mcl/planeurs-machines/planeur-fiche_0int.php

Type Avionnette Biplace - 1936 parasol (w/o dihedral), same as Type 12 (??)

Type Montevideo - 1936 single-seat parasol sailplane, span 15.60 m
 -- https://www.j2mcl-planeurs.net/dbj2mcl/planeurs-machines/planeur-fiche_0int.php

Type Scooter Ultra-Léger - 19?? basic training motor glider, span 6.12 m
 - Type Scooter (or Scooter Ultra-Léger): 'Monobloc' rear fuselage framing
 -- Nose-mounted HO-2 engine (4.5 hp required to maintain flight)

Type Biplan démontable - 19?? single-seat biplane motor glider
 - Type Biplan démontable: Removable wings,* span 4.866 m
 -- Nose-mounted engine, 1 x 24 hp Coventry Victor or Solo
 -- * Dismounted Wing components, each no longer than 1.60 m

Type Estafette X - 19?? 2-seat biplane tourer/trainer, span 7.604 m
 - Type Estafette X: 1 x 65-100 hp, equal-span, single-bay wings

Type Enseignement (École) - 19?? single-seat glider, span 9.99 m
 - Type Enseignement: Simplified 'monobloc' rear fuselage struct.
 -- School trainer, drawing shows open cockpit w/ optional fairing

Type Enseignement (Performance) - 19?? sailplane, span 12.00 m
 - Type Enseignement: Reduced-scale single-seat sailplane trainer

Type Enseignement (Biplace) - 19?? 2-seat glider, span 11.58 m
 - Type Enseignement: Side-by-side basic training school glider
 -- Faired cockpit, parasol wing, 'monobloc' twin-boom fuselage

Type Uruguay - 19?? single-seat low-wing avionnette, span 4.96 m
 - Type Uruguay: 1 x 18 hp Aubier-Dunne or 24 hp Solo engine
 -- Drawing shows cockpit canopy, spatted wide-track main u/c

1954 'backpack helicopter', coaxial tip jets ('Blattjet')
 -- See Reply #10
________________________________
« Last Edit: August 29, 2016, 10:19:50 am by Apophenia »

Offline Maveric

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Re: Georges Sablier Type Designations
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2011, 01:15:16 am »
Good man, Apophenia. This is all that I have found. Sablier is an other secret of french aircraft industry... ;)
I see you on the dark side of the moon.

Offline Grey Havoc

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Re: Georges Sablier Type Designations
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2011, 01:52:02 am »
Sablier type 14 - 1930, single-seat ab initio training glider, 9 m span*, 16 built*
 - aka S-14: wooden constr., Warren truss tubular rear-fuselage structure
 -- [* NB: am44.ifrance.com says 10.8m span and only 12 x Sablier Type 14s built]

Sablier type 15 - [??]

Perhaps the 10.8m wingspan development of the type 14 became the type 15? Could explain the confusion. I presume that the type 14 production models were delivered to what was still the French Army's Air Service, or was it to another collection of Aero Clubs?
The sole imperative of a government, once instituted, is to survive.

Offline Apophenia

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Re: Georges Sablier Type Designations
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2011, 05:02:23 pm »
Cheers Maveric!

Grey Havoc: interesting notion about the different spans quotes possibly suggesting other designations. Alas, there's nothing out there about the type 15. The different spans may also be detail differences between plan book editions (while retaining the type 14 designation). Who knows!

About possible Armée de l'Air use of type 14 gliders: AFAIK, prior to his engagement by Vizcaína Aviación and Garay y Sesúmaga, Georges Sablier's output was strictly for himself or those plan books listed by Mole in response to Maveric's Early Aircraft Projects topic.

So, no "production" per se. Those 12-16 type 14s were more likely completed by homebuilders rather than produced for the Armée de l'Air. Still, no reason that type 14s couldn't have shown up at the Aéro-Clubs alongside the type 19s.

Actually, that brings up another question: who the heck were les Ateliers Legouge? (Or should that perhaps be 'Ateliers Le Gouge?) Anyone know? Dominique Mahieu lists "Legouge" as a maker but gives no details.

dominique.mahieu.pagesperso-orange.fr/index/referentiel.pdf

Offline carolineaustria

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Re: Georges Sablier Type Designations
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2011, 08:59:03 am »
Hello,

 I sent a long message concerning my cousin Ingeneer, Georges Sablier, from Paris but I think it has been erased.

I will send a new complete including some souvenirs maybe pictures and anecdotes but  unfortunately no docs, plans or designs, i regret that some members of my family didn't keep the whole information and work concerning our cousin but maybe the persons who emptied the  flat when he died kept hopefully some documents left, for collectors, for history, for his memory and trace.

A french builder contacted me and he is constructing an aircraft in Annecy according to the plans he found. Some information circulates on different for aviation specialized forums...too.

I only have some anecdotes and personal information and private pictures.

so long,

caroline
caroline

Offline Apophenia

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Re: Georges Sablier Type Designations
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2011, 06:18:57 pm »
Thank you Caroline, we would appreciate any relevant information that you have.

Are you in contact with the the people who emptied Georges Sablier's flat? It would be fabulous if plans could be tracked down.

BTW: has anyone seen a Type number applied to Sablier's 'strap-on' helicopter demonstrated at St. Etienne in 1954?

Offline carolineaustria

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Re: Georges Sablier Type Designations
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2011, 03:12:38 am »
Thank you for your interest.

In fact I went to aéroclub de france in Paris in march and  I just asked by the way if they have some relevant information about my cousin who lived in Paris 76 rue lauriston in 16e district.and if he was a member of the club....I am in contact with Mr Simon Carrier +33147237272 or Rémy Maille +33147237338 in Paris who promised to help me to get some information. But both didn t contact me now. They told me to go and see at Le Bourget for information but i didn t have time. I don t have yet the name of the close friends of my cousins but i can try to  find out but  i have only some spare information. I will ask the Mairie of district if they know who cared for emptying the flat early 90's and when exactly he died... He had a huge volume and amount of doc, plans, designs and someone at the time must have  had hopefully the idea to distribute it for "connaisseurs" !!!!!!! and not to throw all this away..

so long

caroline






caroline

Offline Retrofit

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Re: Georges Sablier Type Designations
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2011, 04:49:17 am »
Here-after a side drawing and a photo of a Sablier glider modified by Charles de Rougé by the installation of elytroplan surfaces above the wings, in Autumn 1933.
Unfortunately the text (from "Le Trait d'union" magazine, dated 1981 or 1982) does not mention the type number of this glider, just the area (14m2) and the span (10m). But it looks like a type 20.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2011, 05:20:13 am by Retrofit »

Offline hesham

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Re: Georges Sablier Type Designations
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2014, 06:21:36 am »
From l'Aeronautique journal 1931,


here is info about Sablier Type 24 glider.

Offline hesham

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Re: Georges Sablier Type Designations
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2016, 08:38:01 am »
From l'Aeronautique journal 1931,


here is info about Sablier Type 24 glider.

Also a one-man or personal helicopter;

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3622.msg273081.html#msg273081

Offline Apophenia

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Re: Georges Sablier Type Designations
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2016, 11:23:18 am »
Thanks Hesham -- that's been added to the list.

Offline avion ancien

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Re: Georges Sablier Type Designations
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2016, 06:33:25 am »
I came across the attached drawing on the internet (q.v. http://www.retroplane.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4229&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0). Can anyone tell me where this fits into the Sablier canon? If it's a variation on the Type 4 design dating from 1952, it looks significantly more antique than the 1939 (?) variant of the Type 4 which carried the experimental registration F-WFOP and was constructed at Angers Avrillé by Wilfried Giraud in the immediate post WW2 years.

« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 06:38:03 am by avion ancien »

Offline avion ancien

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Re: Georges Sablier Type Designations
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2016, 06:37:07 am »
And a photograph of the Type 4/52



which is described as a motorglider!
« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 06:39:09 am by avion ancien »

Offline avion ancien

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Re: Georges Sablier Type Designations
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2016, 07:12:05 am »
According to J2mcplaneurs (https://www.j2mcl-planeurs.net/), the Sablier types 1, 3 and 7 were as follows:

Type 1 - a tailless flying wing monoplane glider, apparently to be flown by the pilot in a prone position, dating from 1922, which attended, but did not fly at,  the glider meeting at Combegrasse (q.v. https://www.j2mcl-planeurs.net/dbj2mcl/planeurs-machines/planeur-fiche_0int.php)

Type 3 - an ultralight parasol wing single seat glider, dating from 1923, and which participated at the Vauville glider meetings both in that year and 1925 (https://www.j2mcl-planeurs.net/dbj2mcl/planeurs-machines/planeur-fiche_0int.php)

Type 7 - another flying wing monoplane glider, this time with a rudder at the stern of its fuselage, dating from 1930, which Sablier claimed was robust enough to carry an auxillary(?) motor of 25 to 50 hp [I'm unsure whether, in this format, it was intended to be a motor glider or an avionnette] (q.v. https://www.j2mcl-planeurs.net/dbj2mcl/planeurs-machines/planeur-fiche_0int.php)

This website also records what the abovementioned plan (the work of Georges Sablier?) describes as the Type 4/52 as the Type 52 (q.v. https://www.j2mcl-planeurs.net/dbj2mcl/planeurs-machines/planeur-fiche_0int.php). It says of it that it was an avionnette, dating from 1952, which was envisaged as flying also as a pure glider. It will be noted that the plan is displayed on that page of the website but, unhelpfully, the author does not say why, when the plan describes the aircraft as a Type 4/52, he describes it as a Type 52. However there do appear to be dimensional differences between the two, as will be evident from the following:

                         Type 4       Type 4/52

Wingspan         6.70m        7.182m
Length              5.00m        4.365m
Surface             8.04m²       7.830m²
« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 08:08:04 am by avion ancien »

Offline hesham

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Re: Georges Sablier Type Designations
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2016, 10:51:06 am »
Nice find my dear Avions,

and in a drawing to Type-1,it had a skids for landing,and a weird tailless shape.

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Offline avion ancien

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Re: Georges Sablier Type Designations
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2016, 06:50:37 am »
Can anyone say how many Sablier Type 4s were constructed? The only one I know to have carried registration marks is F-WFOP, which was built by Wilfried Giraud, the mechanic of the Aéro Club de l'Ouest at Angers-Avrillé, soon after the last war, which is also known as the Giraud-Sablier T4 (see http://aeroclub-angers.fr/wp-content...-de-lOuest.pdf). It appears never to have employed a CDN or CNRA registration and is supposed to have been destroyed at Angers-Avrillé c. 1965. However in the private motorcycle museum of Jean-Luc Gaignard, near Laval, there is the fuselage of an aeroplane which looks like a Type 4 and also carries the registration mark F-WFOP (see http://www.aerostories.org/~aeroforums/forumhist/aff.php?nummsg=68597). Is this a second Type 4 or did Giraud's machine survive and is this it? Then on the aviafrance website there is a photograph of an unmarked Type 4 (see https://www.aviafrance.com/aviafrance1.php?ID=8067&ID_CONSTRUCTEUR=1154&ANNEE=0&ID_MISSION=0&MOTCLEF=). Is this Giraud's machine and/or the machine in the museum near Laval or another Type 4? And finally on the Vieilles Toiles et Planeurs Modernes website there are two photographs of a Type 4 which look to have been taken at the Paris salon, possibly pre-war (the design of the Type 4 dates from 1932)(see http://claudel.dopp.free.fr/Les_planeurs/Histoire/Georges_Sablier/Georges_Sablier_machines.htm), and, if it is, presumably it cannot be F-WFOP but is the pre-war original of the Type 4 - which means that there must have been at least two; but there could have been up to four; and there may have been more - or possibly less!

Offline hesham

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Re: Georges Sablier Type Designations
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2016, 09:31:50 am »
Great find my dear Patvig,

also more Projects on TU new issue.

Offline hesham

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Re: Georges Sablier Type Designations
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2016, 05:34:07 am »
French webpage available here : http://claudel.dopp.free.fr/Les_planeurs/Histoire/Georges_Sablier/Georges_Sablier_machines.htm

My dear Apophenia,my dear Patvig discovered a good site,has many new Sablier Projects and unknown aircraft
please add it to the list,and later I will introduce anther Projects.

Offline Apophenia

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Re: Georges Sablier Type Designations
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2016, 10:21:34 am »
Done ... along with some added links.

Good find patvig! Hard to tell how many of these are unbuilt projects but your link has filled a lot of the gaps  :D

Offline hesham

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Re: Georges Sablier Type Designations
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2016, 02:12:37 pm »
Done ... along with some added links.

Good find patvig! Hard to tell how many of these are unbuilt projects but your link has filled a lot of the gaps  :D

Excellent my dear Apophenia,

do you know that,Wikipedia always takes Infos from you and me,and also from my dear Skyblazer.

Offline hesham

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Re: Georges Sablier Type Designations
« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2016, 05:19:49 am »
Hi,

here is a strange airplane,it looks like Type-3,but in this Italian report,it had
a 13 hp engine,maybe it was Type-2 ?.

http://www.avia-it.com/act/biblioteca/periodici/PDF%20Riviste/Ala%20d'Italia/L'ALA%20D'ITALIA%201926%20011.pdf

Offline toura

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Re: Georges Sablier Type Designations
« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2016, 09:58:35 am »
from an old "le fana de l'aviation"

Offline toura

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Re: Georges Sablier Type Designations
« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2016, 10:07:37 am »
the helico

Offline Apophenia

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Re: Georges Sablier Type Designations
« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2016, 10:49:40 am »
here is a strange airplane,it looks like Type-3,but in this Italian report,it had a 13 hp engine,maybe it was Type-2 ?.

In the L'Ala d'Italia article (pg 490-491), it says something like:

Quote
'Sablier' Parasol Monoplane

From the three-view drawings of the apparatus, it is evident that this monoplane was conceived as a glider, although consideration has been given to the possibility of applying an auxiliary motor. Indeed, in the published data,  a 13 hp DKW engine is anticipated. Construction is all-wood, the wing being covered in cloth, while the sides of the fuselage are made of plywood.

In other words,  L'Ala d'Italia are illustrating the Sablier Type 3 in this 3-view drawing while noting the possibility of a future motor-glider variant with a DKW auxiliary engine (presumably nose-mounted).

I think it far more likely that the 1923 Chanute type glider was the Sablier Type 2 (although this is pure speculation).


Offline hesham

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Re: Georges Sablier Type Designations
« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2016, 12:50:03 pm »
Thank you my dears Toura and Apophenia.