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Author Topic: Arsenal de l'Aéronautique ("Arsenal") designations  (Read 14794 times)


Offline Robert

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Re: Arsenal de l'Aéronautique ("Arsenal") designations
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2017, 05:12:19 am »
Slightly off-topic, but I wonder if anyone has any more information about the origin of this state-run arsenal? I recently acquired a reprint of the 1938 edition of Jane's All the World's Aircraft, which has this information about it:
THE GOVERNMENT AIR ARSENAL
Location: Villacoublay
Director: M. Vernisse.
"Under the Law for the Nationalisation of Military Industries the State acquired the works at Villacoublay which formerly belonged to the Breguet Company and converted it into a State Arsenal."

The French Wikipedia entry for Arsenal has this interesting information:

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Rapporteur du premier budget de l’Air, voté le 2 juillet 1934, le député socialiste Pierre Renaudel proposa la création d’un établissement d’État, doté de moyens industriels, pour étudier de nouvelles techniques et développer du matériel moderne destiné à l’Armée française. Placé sous la tutelle de la Direction technique et industrielle (DTI) du ministère de l’Air et disposant d’un bureau d’études, de machines outils, d’ateliers de fabrication et de moyens d’essais, l’Arsenal du matériel aérien fut constitué fin 1934. Son bureau d’études fut confié à l’ingénieur général de l’air Michel Vernisse. La loi du 11 août 1936 portant nationalisation de l’industrie aéronautique française permettra à l’Arsenal de l’aéronautique de s’installer dans des hangars récemment construits par Louis Breguet à Villacoublay.

L’arrivée au pouvoir du Front populaire en 1936 et la nationalisation de l’industrie aéronautique modifia légèrement les missions de l’établissement de Villacoublay, rebaptisé Arsenal de l’aéronautique à la suite d'un décret du 6 mai 1936 :

1/ Il doit permettre aux ingénieurs d’État d’obtenir les compétences nécessaires pour calculer les prix de revient exacts du matériel aéronautique, donc de mieux utiliser les fonds publics1.

2/ D’étudier sans soucis de rentabilité des projets ne débouchant pas nécessairement sur des fabrications de série ou « sensibles »1.

3/ De former les ingénieurs d’État aux techniques de pointe1.

I don't speak or read French, but running this through Google translate, it seems to indicate that "l’Arsenal du materiel" was established in 1934 and then in 1936 after nationalization was enacted, it was relocated to the former Breguet factory in Villacoublay as "l’Arsenal de l’aéronautique."  The only source for this French Wikipedia entry is "Claude Bonnier, Les Ailes no 753 et 754, novembre 1935", which I do not have access to (and would presumably be in French). This source is dated 1935, which is prior to the nationalization law of 1936. I know that Claude Bonnier was at the Lorraine aircraft engine factory and was appointed Chief Administrator of it when it was nationalized in April 1937 as Société Nationale de Construction de Moteurs.
 

Offline hesham

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Re: Arsenal de l'Aéronautique ("Arsenal") designations
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2017, 07:37:33 am »
Hi Robert,

here is the two articles,but we want a translator.

Offline Robert

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Re: Arsenal de l'Aéronautique ("Arsenal") designations
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2017, 11:16:14 am »
That's great, thanks Hesham! I have a French-Canadian co-worker; I will talk to him next week and see if he can perhaps assist with translation.

Offline Robert

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Re: Arsenal de l'Aéronautique ("Arsenal") designations
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2018, 09:01:59 am »
So, my co-worker took a look at Les Ailes articles by Claude Bonnier, but it was a bit more than he was willing to translate. It seems that I will need to manually translate them with Google Translate if I want to find out more information (I tried OCR / text recognition but it was not very successful). From what little I have translated so far, it appears that these articles are an editorial or opinion piece by Claude Bonnier, advocating for the creation of the Arsenal.

I have also found a little bit more information from another source, which I am currently reading: State Capitalism and Working-Class Radicalism in the French Aircraft Industry. From page 84: "Even Fernand Lioré, rarely a progressive voice on labor matters, suggested that an effort under way to establish a collective agreement at the Arsenal d'Aéronautique, a state-run facility in Orléans, might provide a framework for broad negotiations." This was in the context of the May 1936 labor strikes in France. So it would seem that Arsenal already existed at this point, and was located in Orléans. It was later, I think in August 1936 around the time of the aircraft industry nationalizations, that Arsenal was re-located to the former Breguet factory in Villacoublay.

Offline Robert

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Re: Arsenal de l'Aéronautique ("Arsenal") designations
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2018, 06:39:18 am »
Using Google Translate, I've manually re-typed the first article (No. 753 21-11-35, pages 4 & 5) in French and then translated to English. The interesting parts:

Quote
La création de l'Arsenal de l'Aéronautique implique la refonte des Services Techniques

La "Technique", base et raison d'être du Ministère-de l'Air doit  avoir à sa tête un directeur genéral assisté de quatre directeurs consacrés respectivement aux cellules, aux moteurs et carburants, aux équipements, à l'armement

A propos do l'Arsenal de l'Aéronautique, M. Claude Bonnier, très distingué chef du Service des Essais à l'Office National des Combustibles Liquides, nous donne dans cette premiere partie de son etude des vues sensees et  seduisantes sur ce que devrait etre l'organisation des Services Techniques français. Nous ne savons si cet état de perfection humaine et de travail facile peut etre atteint dans une admlnlstration publique· maies le sens des reformes indiquées par M. Bonnier est certainement celui vers lequel il faut a'orienter.

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The creation of the Arsenal of Aeronautics involves the redesign of the Technical Services

About the Arsenal of Aeronautics, Mr. Claude Bonnier, very distinguished head of the Testing Department at the National Office of Liquid Fuels, gives us in this first part of his study some sensible and seductive views on what should to be the organization of the French Technical Services. We do not know whether this state of human perfection and easy work can be attained in a public administration, but the sense of the reforms indicated by M. Bonnier is certainly the one to which we must point.

The "Technique", the basis and raison d'être of the Air Ministry must be headed by a general manager assisted by four directors, respectively dedicated to organization, engines and fuels, equipment and weapons.


So, this first article is about M. Bonnier's opinion on redesigning the Technical Services of the Air Ministry. The only interesting information about the Arsenal is near the beginning:

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C ’est en 1930 que, pour la premiere fois, su l’initiative de Pierre Renaudel, rapporteur du Budget de l’Air, la creation d’un Arsenal de l’Aeronautiqe etait decide par le Parlement.
   Le rapport sur le Budget de 1930 explique en effet (Chapitre 53 bis) qu’un credit nouveau de 5 millions est prevu pour la creation d’un atelier-temoin destine, non pas a des fabrications de serie, mais a la mise au point de materiels speciaux ou secrets, au controle des prix, notamment,
des reparations, a la formation de personnel specialise.
      En 1931-32, l’atelier prenait le nom d’Arsenal; 5 nouveaux millions etaient votes. En 1933, 2 millions. En 1934, 5 millions. En 1935, 5 millions, plus 3 millions pour un atelier de reparations de moteurs.
   Ainsi, a l’heure actuelle, le Parlement a accorde au total 25 millions pour un Arsenal de l’Aeronautique. Or, c’est un fait que nous n’avons pas d’Arsenal, et il a fallu, au debut de cette annee, d’assez vives observations de la Commission des Finances du Senat pour qu’on se decide a envisage la construction de cet Arsenal.

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It was in 1930 for the first time once, on the initiative of Pierre Renaudel, rapporteur of the Budget of the Air, the creation of an Arsenal of Aeronautics was decided by Parliament.   
   The report on the 1930 Budget explains (Chapter 53 bis) that a new credit of 5 million [francs] is planned for the creation of a second workshop intended, not for serial fabrications, but for the development of special or secret materials, price controls, including repairs, and the training of specialized staff.                  
   In 1931-32, the workshop took the name of Arsenal; 5 million new [francs] were voted. In 1933, 2 million. In 1934, 5 million. In 1935, 5 million plus 3 million for an engine repair shop.   
   Thus, at present, Parliament has granted a total of 25 million for an Arsenal of Aeronautics. It is a fact that we do not have an Arsenal, and it was necessary, at the beginning of this year, to have quite lively comments of the Finance Committee of the Senate, so that we could consider the construction of this Arsenal.

So it would seem that in 1930 the French Parliament approved funding for the establishment of the Arsenal, and approved additional funding in subsequent years, but as of the beginning of 1935, it had not yet been constructed.

M. Bonnier also briefly mentions Orleans near the end of his article:

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   Ainsi, les quatre Directions ont besoin d’essais en vol. Le materiel et le personnel permanent de ces terrains sera groupe sure des aerodromes specialement equips, ainsi qu’il en existe a Villacoublay ou Saint-Raphael et qu’il doit en exister a Orleans. C’est au commandant de ces centres que s’addresseront les Directeurs ou les Ingenieurs pour leurs essais.

Quote
   Thus, the four directorates need flight tests. The equipment and permanent staff of these fields will be a group of specially equipped aerodromes, as exists at Villacoublay or Saint Raphael, and must exist in Orleans. It is to the commander of these centers that the Directors or Engineers will address themselves for their tests.

Offline hesham

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Re: Arsenal de l'Aéronautique ("Arsenal") designations
« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2019, 04:32:43 am »
In Decollage 7/1947,

the spoke about Arsenal C.128,I know it was O.101,but what was this designation,
first allocated ?.

Offline Deltafan

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Re: Arsenal de l'Aéronautique ("Arsenal") designations
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2019, 10:49:28 am »
In Decollage 7/1947,

the spoke about Arsenal C.128,I know it was O.101,but what was this designation,
first allocated ?.
In an article by French author Philippe Ricco in Air Magazine 52, he says that nobody knows why this plane had two names (C.128 and O.101). But he adds that the C.128 designation seems to have been ephemeral.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2019, 11:07:38 am by Deltafan »

Offline hesham

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Re: Arsenal de l'Aéronautique ("Arsenal") designations
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2019, 03:13:09 pm »
Thank you my dear Deltafan.