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Author Topic: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters  (Read 16497 times)

Offline fishjay

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Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« on: March 01, 2011, 11:09:28 am »
Has anyone ever seen drawings (patent or 3-v) of the XR-1 helicopter? Numerous photos on the net, but no drawings. Did McDonnell use the XR-1 as the basis for their XHJD-1 design or is this one of those cases where two separate companies designed a similar aircraft simultaneously?

Lester (fishjay)
« Last Edit: November 28, 2012, 12:32:36 pm by Stargazer2006 »

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2011, 11:57:30 am »
Platt-Lepage's design was taken over by McDonnell and perfected in the form of the Model 38/Model 65 Whirlaway design.

I don't think I have a three-view of the XR-1 or the XR-1A, but I'll go check.

Offline fishjay

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2011, 01:11:48 pm »
Thanks. This confirms my suspicions that these two designs looked too much alike to not have been connected.

fishjay

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2011, 05:10:48 pm »
Quote
McDonnell Aircraft Co. which had invested in Platt-LePage Aircraft, in exchange for having McDonnell personnel learn helicopter design, had bought the rights to the PL-9 twin-engine twin-rotor design that became the XHJD-1 Whirlaway the first twin engine helicopter to fly in the USA.

From a very good Platt-Lepage page that can be found here:
http://www.plattlepageaircraft.com/2007/11/platt-lepage-aircraft-co-background.html

Offline Platt-LePage Aircraft

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2011, 05:32:36 pm »
McDonnell bought the Platt-LePage PL-9 twin engined design that became the XHJD-1.

In a sense, yes.....the PL-9 / XHJD-1 grew out of the XR-1 layout, though they were in reality two different beasts. (Most Platt-LePage designs were lateral tandems, though they had a couple of intriguing single rotor designs)

McDonnell had an interest in PL-LP, they had engineers at PL-LP learning helicopter design, and a number of ex-PL-LP employees went to McDonnell when Platt-LePage closed down.

The story of Platt-LePage is very complicated, the Wikipedia mess is innaccurate, and Rene Francillon's very dated chapter in the McDonnell book is not very accurate. (The Anigrand model kit is a piece of junk, as well)

« Last Edit: February 14, 2016, 01:45:05 pm by Platt-LePage Aircraft »

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2011, 05:40:03 pm »
The story of Platt-LePage is very complicated, the Wikipedia mess is innaccurate, and Rene Francillon's very dated chapter in the McDonnell book is very dated. (The Anigrand model kit is a piece of junk, as well)


Purrrleeeeaase would you fill the gaps for us!!??  ;)

Offline Platt-LePage Aircraft

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2011, 05:50:17 pm »
I'm working on it. (Someday I'll update my website, so the usual internet suspects can swipe my research  ;) )

I'll answer a few questions here...


First lift off of the XR-1 May 1941

« Last Edit: March 02, 2011, 06:08:20 pm by Platt-LePage Aircraft »

Offline fishjay

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2011, 09:09:14 am »
Assuming there was a single engine in the fuselage, the transmission, drive shafts and gear boxes must have been something to behold!

From what I have read it seems that PL-LP had worked out the lateral stability problems when the plug was pulled. Is this true?

fishjay

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2011, 09:47:33 am »
Assuming there was a single engine in the fuselage, the transmission, drive shafts and gear boxes must have been something to behold!

Perhaps Bell could have taken some sound advice from Platt-Lepage survivors when they struggled with that problem on the V-22??  ::) :D

Offline Platt-LePage Aircraft

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2011, 05:50:11 pm »
Assuming there was a single engine in the fuselage, the transmission, drive shafts and gear boxes must have been something to behold!

From what I have read it seems that PL-LP had worked out the lateral stability problems when the plug was pulled. Is this true?

fishjay



Haviland Platt and his team solved a nasty drive shaft failure problem with the Bell P-39 Airacobra, Haviland Platt, also laid out the cross shafting set up in the twin engined XHJD-1 Whirlaway, to transfer power in case of an a failure of one of the engines.


The stability issues were partially solved, unfortunately money and time ran out.
 
It would be nice to see the XR-1 fully re-assembled and displayed at Udvar-Hazy, it's in pretty decent shape.

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2011, 06:35:14 pm »
It would be nice to see the XR-1 fully re-assembled and displayed at Udvar-Hazy, it's in pretty decent shape.

You bet it would!!! ;)

Offline Platt-LePage Aircraft

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2011, 02:58:23 pm »
A little rarity to enjoy.

What might have been the PL-12 fuselage, with the XR-1A and XR-1 in the Platt-LePage shop, just after the end of WWII.


Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2011, 05:54:50 pm »
Brilliant! So Platt-Lepage actually had ANOTHER type in progress at the same time as the XR-1/XR-1A prototypes? Was this to be a civil version of these? Or something different? It's hard to tell proportions exactly in such a small picture, but it seems to be a little smaller than the PL-3...

Offline Platt-LePage Aircraft

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2011, 06:58:39 pm »
The PL-12 would have been larger, holding five people, this would have been the civilian helicopter Platt-LePage was working on producing.

There were a number of projects that had quite a bit of engineering work carried out, plus there were parts stockpiled to build a small number of civil helicopters, however events took over that caused everything to be shut down almost overnight.

(One interview I did with an ex-PL-LP employee, mentioned that they were working on rotary-wing projects literally one day, and the company that took over PL-LP, had them working on non-aircraft engineering the next day)

Others jumped over to McDonnell to work on the XHJD-1 project, but McDonnell wasn't able to move things along fast enough with Frank Piasecki taking the tandem helicopter market. (Frank Piasecki bought the XR-1A in 1947)

 

Offline Platt-LePage Aircraft

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2011, 07:25:01 pm »
What you could have bought for fifteen hundred dollars in 1947. (Frank Piasecki bought it)

« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 06:18:41 am by Platt-LePage Aircraft »

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2011, 12:10:01 am »
They had a great design, they had the first aircraft to be purchased in the "R- for Rotary" class, and on top of that it looked just GREAT... Why on Earth did they close business and sell the design to McDonnell, who obviously didn't do much with it afterwards?  ???

Offline Platt-LePage Aircraft

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2011, 07:12:12 pm »
Platt-LePage ran out of cash, and the company was liquidated, there are a couple of other things that happened that accelerated their demise.

There was just no chance of any further orders from the military, so they ran out of options and time, right as the postwar aviation boom went bust.

They sold the PL-9 design to McDonnell during the war, they simply did not have the means to build the design without a military contract, which was not going to happen due to the difficulties with the XR-1 program.

McDonnell unfortunately took too long to develop the XHJD-1, so the lateral tandem became a dead issue with the military.

Offline hesham

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2012, 03:56:46 pm »

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2012, 12:35:09 pm »
An item on the XR-1A's post-war career at HAT, taken from FLYING, August 1947:

Offline Platt-LePage Aircraft

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2012, 11:04:55 am »
Unfortunately most of the story of the XR-1A at HAT is a load of B.S., that came from ex test pilot Lou Leavitt.
Platt-LePage and HAT never were able to carry out the actual deal for what would have been done with the XR-1A airframe.

Lou Leavitt oversaw the reassembly of the XR-1A, the story he told about how HAT obtained the airframe differs greatly from the actual contract papers from Platt-LePage. (I have all the papers)

The XR-1A did fly again, though HAT could do no commercial work with the helicopter as it carried an experimental license, they wanted to sell the helicopter as HAT was in deep financial trouble of their own.

Shortly there after, HAT went bankrupt, and Frank Piasecki bought the XR-1A for sentimental reasons for $1500. at HAT's bankruptcy sale. Pi paid Lou Leavit to fly the XR-1A from Camdem NJ, to Piasecki Helicopter. (You can see the flight on youtube)



Frank kept the XR-1A for many years, bringing it Piasecki Aircraft in Essington PA, after it's use as a mock up for the PA2 "Ring-Wing", his works manager scrapped the airframe without telling Frank, as Piasecki had intended to keep the old helicopter in memory of his days at Platt-LePage. (Frank kept a lot of helicopter stuff)
« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 07:59:15 pm by Platt-LePage Aircraft »

Offline Platt-LePage Aircraft

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2012, 01:45:46 pm »
XR-1A lift off at Camden NJ



Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2012, 03:32:29 pm »
Thanks for the precious input as usual!

Offline hesham

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Offline Platt-LePage Aircraft

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2016, 05:47:56 am »
Basically an artists concept, that was also used a schematic for one of Haviland H. Platt's patents. I'll post an original photo of the art work sometime.

The real twin engine Platt-LePage designs, were the PL-9, PL-14 Amphibian, and two heavy lift designs, (A Flying boxcar helicopter, and a "Skycrane" tandem fuselage helicopter)...and the twin engine Tilt-Rotor.

Offline Maveric

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2016, 06:09:17 am »
Thanks for this Info. Do you have pics or drawings of the P.L. 9 and 14?
I see you on the dark side of the moon.

Offline Platt-LePage Aircraft

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2016, 12:07:21 am »
Yes, I have drawings and the engineering data for the PL-9 and PL-14, and all the other designs...

Offline hesham

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2016, 03:49:09 am »
Yes, I have drawings and the engineering data for the PL-9 and PL-14, and all the other designs...

Please can you send them here,and thanks.

Offline Platt-LePage Aircraft

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #27 on: February 04, 2016, 05:33:05 am »
The concept drawing of the PL-13 Helicopter, also used as a schematic for one of Haviland Platt's patents for a twin engine rotor drive system.

It was mainly used for publicity as a possible "this is coming postwar concept",  and was the only image of a Platt-LePage type machine allowed to be published at the time.

The Air Corps prohibited Platt-LePage from issuing any photos of their XR-1/XR-1A helicopters for publicity use, until the summer of '44 when the XR-1A was delivered to Wright Field. (Which is why there were so few photos published during WWII)

A scan of the PL-13 from the collection...


Offline hesham

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #28 on: February 04, 2016, 08:31:38 am »
Excellent Platt-LePage,we hope to get all his work.

Offline hesham

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #29 on: May 04, 2017, 06:18:48 am »
Excellent Platt-LePage,we hope to get all his work.

I hope to see all PL list,also this strange Project for Haviland Hull Platt;

Vertigiro c.1935 - Design for a helicopter having a single rotor with movable vanes in the rotor downwash for anti-torque control. Interestingly, an article by W Laurence LePage in the Oct 1936 Journal of the Franklin Institute was the first summary of Rotary Wing progress. Platt's patent #2,074,805 of the control system shows a three-view drawing of a multi-seat version, and at some point there was collaboration between Platt and LePage on this design that apparently never went beyond the model stage.

http://www.aerofiles.com/_pl.html

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #30 on: May 04, 2017, 05:11:06 pm »
Aerofiles put that up from an email I sent them many, many, years ago.

The model on top that Dr. LePage is holding...







Haviland Platt


Popular Mechanics ran an article on the Platt Helicopter model around the summer of 1936
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 05:38:49 pm by Platt-LePage Aircraft »

Offline hesham

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #31 on: May 05, 2017, 04:12:30 am »
Wow,OHG,you made my day,thank you Platt-LePage.

Offline Platt-LePage Aircraft

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2017, 08:22:33 pm »
From 1936:

Offline hesham

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #33 on: May 23, 2017, 04:39:52 am »
Nice find PLATT-LePage.

Offline Platt-LePage Aircraft

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #34 on: May 23, 2017, 05:56:47 am »
There were a couple of articles from 1936 where Dr. LePage talked about this concept.

LePage became an advocate of the lateral tandem by 1937, and would remain an advocate of the lateral tandem, until the end of his life.

Haviland Platt had a pair of novel single rotor helicopter designs during WW-2 that had no tail rotor, which used a counter balance vane, but the U.S. govt. would not allow Platt-LePage to divert any resources from the XR-1 / XR-1A / YR-1A program.

Offline hesham

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #35 on: May 23, 2017, 06:11:19 am »
Thank you for the Info Platt-LePage,

and is there any chance to know PL-2,PL-5,PL-6 & PL-10 ?,and thanks.

Offline hesham

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #36 on: September 10, 2017, 02:26:14 pm »
Thank you for the Info Platt-LePage,

and is there any chance to know PL-2,PL-5,PL-6 & PL-10 ?,and thanks.

I hope to know more about those Projects.

here is a strange ten-passenger transport autogiro Project of 1933.

http://archive.aviationweek.com/image/spread/19331101/5/2

Offline Platt-LePage Aircraft

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #37 on: September 10, 2017, 05:45:57 pm »
The PL-5 was the XR-1A.
The PL-6 and PL-10 were design studies for a single rotor helicopter with no tail rotor.
The PL-10 Utility/Liaison Helicopter came very close to being built, but the military would not allow Platt-LePage to divert any construction work, or materials from the XR-1A / YR-1A project.

The LePage LTA-1 Autogiro predated Dr. LePage's longtime collaboration with Haviland Platt.
Laurence LePage laid out a design study for a large sized autogiro, (For its time) with the depth of the economic depression going on in the early 1930s, there was no chance of this ever being built.




Offline hesham

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #38 on: September 11, 2017, 03:47:56 pm »
Many thanks to you my dear Platt-LePage,

and please what was the PL-2 & PL-7 ?.

Offline RAP

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #39 on: July 28, 2018, 07:15:01 pm »
Aviation News 1944.

Offline Platt-LePage Aircraft

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #40 on: August 07, 2018, 06:12:56 pm »
That was the first photograph of the XR-1A, that the Air Corps allowed to be released shortly after the XR-1A was delivered to Wright Field.

Offline hesham

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #41 on: August 08, 2018, 06:44:20 am »
Many thanks to you my dear Platt-LePage,

and please what was the PL-2 & PL-7 ?.

Please can you tell us about them,and thanks.

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #42 on: August 09, 2018, 05:29:32 am »
PL-7 was the YR-1A.

Seven helicopters were contracted for, and were partially completed at the time of contract cancellation.

The YR-1A's would have been some what different from the XR-1A.


Offline hesham

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #43 on: August 09, 2018, 05:44:19 am »
Amazing Info dear Platt-LePage,

and what about PL-2 ?,and thanks.

Offline Platt-LePage Aircraft

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #44 on: August 09, 2018, 05:58:32 am »
Let's just say that the Platt-LePage Aircraft Company, and it's serious design work began with the machine that became the XR-1.

« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 06:02:08 am by Platt-LePage Aircraft »

Offline hesham

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #45 on: August 09, 2018, 06:33:43 am »
Let's just say that the Platt-LePage Aircraft Company, and it's serious design work began with the machine that became the XR-1.

Thank you,and you meant maybe PL-2 was the XR-1 ?.

Offline Platt-LePage Aircraft

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #46 on: August 09, 2018, 10:58:47 pm »
The PL-3 was the design that became the XR-1.

The basic design was the similar to the XR-1, with some changes to the side cockpit glazing, for better visibility.

Their real design and construction work began when Platt-LePage Aircraft set up in Eddystone Pa, on the grounds of the Baldwin Locomotive Works.

They had started construction of the helicopter shortly before winning the Dorsey Bill contract, and once they had the XR-1 contract in hand, they expanded their facilities accordingly. (They remained a fairly small company)






Offline hesham

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #47 on: August 10, 2018, 06:10:42 am »
Thank you for the Info dear Platt-LePage.

Offline circle-5

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #48 on: October 17, 2018, 11:34:15 am »
This photo is currently for sale on eBay for about $2.50.

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #49 on: October 18, 2018, 05:11:41 am »
It's just a poor copy of an image swiped from NASM.


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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #50 on: October 23, 2018, 04:59:24 am »
A sample of what the photo should look like.

Offline hesham

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #51 on: February 07, 2019, 11:43:44 am »
From JAWA 1947,

here is a more info about PL-11,PL-12 & PL-14.

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #52 on: February 09, 2019, 11:35:32 am »
I first read that excerpt in JAWA when I was a kid in school back in the 1970s.

Unfortunately by the time that was published Platt-LePage had been closed since Aug. of 1946.
One ex-PL-LP employee I interviewed mentioned she was working on drawings for the smaller Tilt-Rotor one day, and literally the next day, working on drawings for a piece of industrial equipment. That is how fast they were shut down, and the personnel moved to another company. (non aircraft)




 

Offline hesham

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #53 on: February 09, 2019, 03:14:23 pm »
Thank you my dear.

Offline hesham

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #54 on: February 18, 2019, 07:36:34 am »
From Ali Nouva 10/1951,

what was this Project ?.

Offline nugo

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #55 on: February 18, 2019, 10:06:13 pm »
  Hi All!

 Maybe "proposal" of XV-1/XV-3 competition

Offline hesham

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #56 on: Yesterday at 04:29:35 am »
  Hi All!

 Maybe "proposal" of XV-1/XV-3 competition

Maybe my dear Nugo,

but how,the company liquidated in 1946/47 ?.

Offline Platt-LePage Aircraft

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #57 on: Yesterday at 06:07:27 pm »
Platt-LePage Aircraft was closed down in August of 1946.

The picture doesn't correspond to anything I've seen regarding Platt-LePage Aircraft Co.

It's possible the artist lifted some details from Haviland Platt's later VTOL patent applications.





Offline hesham

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Re: Platt-LePage XR-1 and XR-1A twin-rotor helicopters
« Reply #58 on: Today at 04:20:38 am »
Platt-LePage Aircraft was closed down in August of 1946.

The picture doesn't correspond to anything I've seen regarding Platt-LePage Aircraft Co.

It's possible the artist lifted some details from Haviland Platt's later VTOL patent applications.

Thank you my dear Platt-LePage,

and it was from Prof.Rutowski,and maybe Havilland Platt involve in it;

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,636.msg293047.html#msg293047