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Author Topic: Early US ATF Projects- references  (Read 18127 times)

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Early US ATF Projects- references
« on: February 19, 2006, 02:06:02 pm »
Here's some references for early US ATF project information. Its culled from a TsAGI technical bulletin, an open-source roundup of ATF information circa 1984.

Sources
  • Aerospace Daily, 1982, V.117, 3/IX, N3, p17
  • Aerospace Daily, 1982, V.117, 27/IX, N18, p139
  • AIAA Student Journal, 1982, V.20, N3, p2
  • "Future Fighters for the US Airforce" International Defence Review, 1983, V.16, N2, p165-174
  • AWST, 1983, V.119, 28/XI, N22, p44
  • Aerospace Daily, 1983, V.120, 17/III, N13, p97
  • AWST, 1983, V.119, 7/XI, N19, p44
  • Interavia Aerospace Review, 1981, v.36, 1, N1, p19
  • Flug-Revue Flugwelt, 1981, N4, p4
  • AWST, 1981, V114, 30/III, N13, p15
  • Flight International, 1982, v121, 6/II, N3796, p.291
  • AWST, 1981, V114, 15/VI, N24, p87
  • Flight International, 1982, v122, 17/VII, N3819, p.123
  • Koku-fan, 1984, I, N1, p67-69
  • Interavia Aerospace Review, 1983, v.38, VI, N6, p583
  • Paris Air Daily, 1983, 30/V, p.27
  • AWST, 1978, V108, 10/IV, N15, p46
  • Flight International, 1983, v123, 11/VI, N3866, p.1732
  • Aerospace Daily, 1983, V.122, 28/VII, N19, p252
  • AWST, 1983, V119, 12/IX, N11, p52
  • Interavia Air Letter, 1983, 14/XII, N10404, p5
  • Interavia Air Letter, 1983, 21/XII, N10408, p4
  • Flight International, 1983, v124, 15/X, N3884, p.992-993
  • Flight International, 1983, v123, 15/I, N3845, p.141
  • Jane's Defence Weekly, 1984, V1, 11/II, N7 p192
  • Interavia Air Letter, 1983, 19/IX, N10342, p1-2
  • AWST, 1983, V119, 10/X, N15, p30
  • Flight International, 1983, v124, 10/XII, N3892, p.1516
  • Interavia Air Letter, 1983, 22/VI, N10281, p4
  • Interavia Air Letter, 1983, 21/XI, N10387, p4
  • Aerospace Daily, 1983, V.123, 3/X, N22, p172
  • AWST, 1983, V119, 10/X, N15, p28
  • Aerospace Daily, 1982, V.114, 29/III, N21, p164
  • AWST, 1984, V120, 13/II, N7, p160
  • Kinnucan, P. Superfighters, High Technology, 1984, V4, IV, N4, p36-48
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Offline Sundog

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Re: Early US ATF Projects- references
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2007, 07:28:29 pm »
I've been reading the book Advanced Tactical Fighter to F-22 Raptor: Origins of the 21st Century Air Dominance Fighter that is published by the AIAA and it has really opened up my eyes to understanding alot of the early ATF concepts. When we look at the early design concepts, some of them are very large cruisers. I used to wonder how such a plane could really be considered a fighter in the Air Dominance sense. Well, it turns out, they weren't.

The ATF program actually began in the early 70's and as originally envisioned was to be an advanced strike aircraft, somewhat similar to the Long Range Strike Aircraft being pursued now. In fact, it would probably be best to think of it as an F-111 replacement in its' early days. It was supposed to complement the F-15 and A-10. However, as the LWF came into play and the capability of the F-15 and F-16 became understood, they realized they could use one of those platforms to perform that roll, hence the fly-off between the F-15E and F-16XL.

As that occured, though, the ATF program continued on, adding stealth into it's requirements and morphing into what eventually became the YF-23 and YF-22. The book actually delves into all of the program names that it went through during the 70's and how the requirements changed. But I thought I would just post this information as it explains many of the design concepts we saw during the late 70's early 80's that didn't seem to fit the role that the F-22 performs now. The info in the book on the YF-23's performance is erroneous, considering what's been reported in Aviation Week and other sources. However, once I've finished the book I'll post a bigger review in the books section.

Here are the links to many of the ATF threads on this forum for reference;

McD-D ATF studies

Northrop ATF studies

Grumman ATF studies

Boeing ATF studies

Rockwell ATF studies

Generic ATF studies
« Last Edit: March 13, 2007, 07:30:44 pm by Sundog »

Online hesham

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Re: Early US ATF Projects- references
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2008, 10:53:34 am »
Hi,

I don't remember where we displayed this ATF aircraft project?!.
http://www.flightglobal.com/PDFArchive/View/1987/1987%20-%201938.html

Offline flateric

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Re: Early US ATF Projects- references
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2008, 01:07:26 pm »
It's official USAF rendering of their view of how ATF should look like.
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

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Re: Early US ATF Projects- references
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2008, 04:59:37 pm »
It's official USAF rendering of their view of how ATF should look like.

Yep, saw it in Air Force Magazine many times back then.
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Offline RyanC

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Re: Early US ATF Projects- references
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2008, 04:24:01 am »
So I was reading a rather forgettable book titled "Warplanes of the Future", by MBI; and there was this passage:

----------

Nine airframe companies and three engine manufacturers responded to the challenge when the USAF Aeronautical Systems Division (ASD) re-entered the game and issued its request for information (RFI) for an ATF in 1981. 

At this early stage of the program, the USAF had not decided whether the new aircraft would emphasize air-to-air or air-to-ground missions and invited industry to share ideas for the new fighter.

The companies submitted a wide range of configurations in their responses. Lockheed favored a derivitive of the YF-12A, the forerunner of the two-seat SR-71 Blackbird. The YF-12A, designed for air-to-ground missions, carried several kinetic-energy penetrator weapons in a central weapon bay which would be released at supersonic speeds at high altitudes and guided to the target by a laser. The approach, which was worked through in early 1982, built up technical data gathered from a series of air-to-air missile launches from the YF-12A conducted in the mid-to-late 1960s. The YF-12A had fired seven Hughes AIM-47 missiles at altitudes of up to 80,000 feet (24,250m) at speeds of over Mach 3. The shots, at aerial targets at ranges of over 30 miles (48km), were highly successful. This high-altitude, high-speed approach was also one of Lockheed's candidates for the F-X program which became the F-15.

. . . .

Including stealth set an unusual security precedent. The security level of the original RFPs at this stage of the program precluded any details on stealth, a topic that was highly classified in the early 1980s. Companies that could claim low-observable (LO) technologies would be considered in a design but they could not reference any actual experience or techniques in their proposals. Stealth technologies were considered "black" and as such did not exist to anyone not cleared on them. The last minute change in the RFPs placed the program in both the "black" and "white" worlds.

The next phase in the program was the demonstration/validation (dem/val) phase in which companies would have to prove their technologies and refine their designs. Lockheed, however, took a radical departure from its high-speed, high-altitude design. "Clearly, ATF was going to be superstealth and not a cousin of the YF-12 or SR-71," explained Bart Osborne, Lockheed's chief engineer during this phase of the ATF program. "I stopped the YF-12 derivative effort and we started working on an F-117 derivative for ATF...."

------------------------------------------

I'm really interested in the YF-12 derivatives they were looking at now...

Offline cat-shot

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Re: Early US ATF Projects- references
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2008, 02:07:42 pm »
Supersonic Cruise Fighter was a USAF research program of the 70s.
The studies between NASA LaRC and GD leading to the F-16XL, can be described by three phases
First phase: the Pre-SCAMP (SCAMP: Supersonic Cruise And Maneuvering Prototype) cranked arrow wing (77/67)
Second phase: the GD-SCAMP,cranked arrow wing (70/50)
Third the GD F-16XL, cranked arow wing (70/50).

Offline Spring

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Re: Early US ATF Projects- references
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2008, 11:50:57 am »
Actually, that design, the Tomcat II, is a Grumman design, and my guess is it was a new build version designed to use as much of the existing jigs, etc and the knowledge base of the Tomcat structurally. But it was sort of a cheap attempt to get into the stealth game in much the same way that the B-1B was an attempt to get a "Stealth Bomber" out of the original B-1A design.

The F-23 airframe concept was based on a non-stealth design, is not that hard to turn a conventional airframe into an semi-stealth one.

The B1 was not a LO aircraft at all, just an airframe with some RAM
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Offline flateric

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Re: Early US ATF Projects- references
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2008, 12:31:01 pm »
The F-23 airframe concept was based on a non-stealth design

Oh, rly?
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stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

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Re: Early US ATF Projects- references
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2008, 12:40:18 pm »

The F-23 airframe concept was based on a non-stealth design, is not that hard to turn a conventional airframe into an semi-stealth one.

The B1 was not a LO aircraft at all, just an airframe with some RAM

ROFL!!
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Offline Spring

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Re: Early US ATF Projects- references
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2008, 01:23:39 pm »
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,185.0/.html

The early concepts (on the early ATF proposals) dont show any faceted or planar edge feature and all were  high agility/supercruiser cooncepts, later the engines were re-located, the airframe edge was given etc..

There were studies pre-final-ATF projects, where the diferent designs were changed due the actualization of the USAF requirements, Northrop opted to keep the original design, and later adapt it to the new specifications

Other teams changed the designs for the last ATF contest, for example the Mcdonnel douglas and lockheed concepts
« Last Edit: June 15, 2008, 01:41:03 pm by Spring »
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Offline flateric

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Re: Early US ATF Projects- references
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2008, 01:40:24 pm »
When we will learn to separate publicity drawings from the real things? Compare what Lockheed did release, calling it *ATF*, at the same timeframe, to real project iterations, and now approximate it to Northrop's artist's renderings. Real predecessors of (Y)F-23 design chain are still in black.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2008, 01:47:27 pm by flateric »
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline Spring

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Re: Early US ATF Projects- references
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2008, 01:53:50 pm »
The ATF program started in the late 70s,  and were some pre-studies before the final thing ,these models were real, and many companies presented their early proposals, stealth technology was not mature for these early proposals

Later, after some changes, the only ones on the contest were 4-5 models designed for the new requirements

Off topic, maybe, but i think the early Rockwell proposal was the best of them
« Last Edit: June 15, 2008, 01:56:06 pm by Spring »
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Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Early US ATF Projects- references
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2008, 02:07:33 pm »
Rockwell's design got the supercruise part correct, but they didn't put enough effort in during the later stages, persisting with refinements of their earlier design. With the revised stealth requirements it wasn't good enough.

Rockwell had some fairly strong stealth capabilities (better than Grumman, certainly) but they were too busy on B-1 programme, I think.
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Offline Spring

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Re: Early US ATF Projects- references
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2008, 02:08:44 pm »
Is sad, that airframe had a lot of potential
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