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Author Topic: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter  (Read 93570 times)

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« on: November 27, 2006, 12:54:23 pm »
Some ideas of what the F-117 might look like from the 1980s

Source:
Bill Gunston, Warplanes of the Future Salamander 1986
« Last Edit: November 27, 2006, 12:56:48 pm by overscan »
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Offline Matej

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2006, 01:02:47 pm »
Interesting design from cca 1990 that nearly matched it.

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Offline flateric

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2006, 01:06:14 pm »
From 'Lockheed Aircrafts Since 1913' by Rene J Francillon, Putnam 1987
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline frank

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2006, 04:27:44 pm »

      Considering the F-117 was officially revealed in November, 1988, it's no wonder that a 1990 drawing nearly matches it.


Interesting design from cca 1990 that nearly matched it.

Offline SOC

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2006, 04:32:27 pm »
What's really amusing is how far off some of the drawings were thanks to the odd angle of the jet in the retouched photo that was released.

Offline fightingirish

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2006, 01:32:10 am »
Interesting design from cca 1990 that nearly matched it.

Reminds me very much of the "Stealth Fighter" from Matchbox toys, I had as a kid! :)
Slán,
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Slán ist an Irish Gaelic word for Goodbye.  :)

Offline Matej

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2006, 02:24:18 am »
This was falling down to Iraqi people during operations Desert Shield and Desert Storm:

http://www.hitechweb.genezis.eu/stealth5b.files/letak.jpg

« Last Edit: November 22, 2009, 04:14:59 am by Matej »

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Offline flateric

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2007, 01:12:07 pm »
After unveiling F-117A heavily mastered photo in November, 1988, numerous attempts were made to imagine fighter 3-view and understand how all this faceted stuff situated.
First one comes from guru Bill Sweetman, with an additional effort from Interavia magazine artist to reveal facets at official photo. (c) Bill Sweetman/Interavia (January, 1989)
 
« Last Edit: January 21, 2007, 01:54:33 pm by flateric »
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline flateric

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2007, 01:26:41 pm »
Untill first inflight photos of F-117A by John Andrews and Tony Landis, showing the right wing swept of the a/c, were released, several kit manufacturers did a big mistake, hurrying to feed a market with 'correct' Stealth Fighter model kits. First was Hasegawa, producing in 1989 something really weird. In the moment I don't have kit in hands, more quality boxart and 3-view graphics is to come.
AMT also made its small effort.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2007, 01:59:50 pm by flateric »
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline flateric

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2007, 01:34:23 pm »
After first in-flight F-117 plan-view photo appeared on the cover of Aviation Week, new generation of drawings and kits appeared, a little more close to real aircraft.
1). 3-view from Dough Richardson's Stealth Warplanes (c) MBI Publishing, 1990
« Last Edit: January 21, 2007, 01:52:46 pm by flateric »
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline flateric

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2007, 01:41:58 pm »
In 1990 Revell produced both 1/144 and 1/72 kits, now I don't have 1/72 on hands, but seems that this is just scaled up 1/144 kit (or vice versa)
« Last Edit: January 21, 2007, 01:53:12 pm by flateric »
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline Matej

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2007, 01:58:43 pm »
Ough! Especially the exhaust nozzle looks like the drainage cover.

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Offline flateric

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2007, 02:17:06 pm »
And the inlets like the cart grill :)
OK, I've ordered all 'wrong' F-117 kits on eBay. More pics are to follow.
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline fightingirish

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2007, 05:04:37 am »
And what about toys?

F-117 Stealth fighter
SB-35
Made in Thailand
Matchbox Int'l LTD
(C) 1990
Slán,
fightingirish

Slán ist an Irish Gaelic word for Goodbye.  :)

Offline flateric

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2007, 06:43:44 am »
Cool, thanks for posting this masterpiece)))
1-2). FURUTA MILITARY AIRCRAFT EGG SERIES F-19 STEALTH FIGHTER
3). ZEE Die - Cast F-19 Stealth Fighter
« Last Edit: January 22, 2007, 06:52:18 am by flateric »
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline flateric

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2007, 11:15:20 am »
Hasegawa 1989 'US Air Force Stealth Fighter' I could not stop myself from buying this masterpiece for USD 0.99 at eBay
« Last Edit: January 29, 2007, 11:16:59 am by flateric »
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline flateric

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2007, 11:28:57 am »
Earlier, than their attempt to replicate F-117 in 1/144 scale, here goes Revell's Stealth Fighter in 1/72. Just note at the V-tail angle and this pretty air pressure sensors...but Hasegava's one at the top of the canopy much more sexy:)
« Last Edit: January 31, 2007, 11:29:41 am by flateric »
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline Golfus

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2007, 11:48:03 pm »
A bit of nostalgy: Bill Gunston´s excellent "Stealth Warplanes"

Offline Matej

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2007, 01:53:48 pm »
Under the lamp is the biggest dark....

I realised that I have my own mutation of F-117! But not one. Two!!! When I was youger, I used to create and make my original paper models. Some of them were aircrafts and two of them were F-117 related. When the first was an attempt to make the real F-117 (however I didnt understand the angels), the second one is much progressive mutation with single jet at the center of the fuselage, that powered via shaft two cold-air ducted fans. Ducted fans are two things above wing that looks like jet engines.

And when the two batteries are in the bomb bay of the first model, then comes....    the surprise  :)

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Offline flateric

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2007, 03:54:11 am »
Cutaways god Mike Badrocke's and Bill Sweetman's collective impressions of a 'stealth fighter'. It was 1986 on the backyard. Already then Sweetman was aknowledged that real aircraft use faceting LO technology.
(Bill Sweetman 'Stealth Aircraft: Secrets of Future Airpower', Motorbooks International, 1986)
« Last Edit: February 03, 2007, 03:58:19 am by flateric »
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline flateric

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2007, 04:05:17 am »
Three more modelling beasts in the F-117 mood - DML's 1/144, DML B-2/F-117 double kit pack in 1/200 and HobbyModelKits 1/72 creature.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2007, 06:52:14 am by flateric »
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline flateric

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2007, 06:36:37 am »
AMT 1989 F-117A in 1/72. Second place on wobbly goblin contest after Hasegawa.
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline Matej

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2007, 02:26:00 am »
Full stealthy ironless F-117 made from.... LEGO  :D

http://www.dementia.org/~adams/lego/f117/index.html

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Offline flateric

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2007, 09:30:22 am »
DML's 1990 1/144 F-117A. Note that boxart looks much weirder than kit molds itself.
My gathering of the full collection of 'wrong' F-117s is close to the end.
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline flateric

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2007, 01:21:05 pm »
This F-117A wood desk model commemorated F-117A final delivery date in 1990. Seems to have Lockheed Martin origins and marks a good sense of ADP stuff humor.
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline CFE

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #25 on: September 01, 2007, 09:58:12 pm »
Does anybody have the full story on how John Andrews came up with the famous Testors F-19 design?  I recall reading that one of Andrews's inside sources described the F-117 as looking like "a Douglas Skyray with Packard grills on the intakes."  His final design looks like it borrows liberally from the SR-71, but it demonstrates that Andrews had some idea of aeronautical engineering and stealth design.  He even got a patent for his design (probably an effort to prevent copycats from cloning his F-19 design more than anything else.)

Offline LowObservable

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2007, 08:09:55 pm »
If a person had been close to the scene at the time, one might have speculated reasonably that the design fused elements of the Blackbird - which clearly had RAS built into the wing edges - such as the planform and inward-canted fins, with AvWeek reports of a double-delta aircraft with two F404s. The flush inlets look a lot like standard NACA flush inlets and the verticals shield the exhaust.

Offline CFE

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #27 on: September 04, 2007, 09:16:00 pm »
One strike against Andrews is his canards mounted on the upper surface of the F-19.  They'd have been useless at moderate angles of attack. 

The wing is very tiny, likely due to a perceived need to transport the F-19 inside a C-5.  We'd hear the C-5 story again in the years that followed.  Reports of a craft resembling the nose of an SR-71 being unloaded from a C-5 at Palmdale.  AvWeek stories about the "Blackstar" orbiter being ferried by C-5.  I don't know if there's any truth to these tales, but it's fascinating to follow.

Offline flateric

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #28 on: September 04, 2007, 10:41:49 pm »
Interesting that front view profiles of Testors kit and actual aircraft are strikingly close (except, of course, inward canted tails and these small fins). Again, we see some 'angled' structure from the front. I bet some observer's notes who probably have seen it in hangar have leaked. OK, just my guess.

BTW, story of F-19 kit described quite well in glamorous Curtis Pebbles 'Dark Eagles'.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2007, 10:51:07 pm by flateric »
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline pometablava

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #29 on: November 22, 2007, 07:28:27 am »
please, could anyone tell me what is "PR art"?

Thanks again

Antonio

Offline sferrin

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #30 on: November 22, 2007, 07:28:49 am »
LowObservable, could you please tell me what is a PR image?

thanks :)

A picture released for public consumption which may or may not resemble a real project.  A prime example would be some of the old Loral ads.  Showing a table full of black boxes isn't nearly "sexy" enough for your average marketer so they had a picture of a stealth fighter in their ads that looked like what they thought stealth looked like back in those days.  To this day that damn thing pops up with people saying "what aircraft was this?"  


Oh, and "PR" stands for Public Relations.  You hear that term a lot around election time when candidates are trying to convince the masses that they really believe what the latest polls tell them the public wants to hear.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2007, 08:15:07 am by sferrin »
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Offline doggedman

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #31 on: November 22, 2007, 09:51:46 am »
The artwork you are showing was done by an artist named Atilla Hejja.  The configuration was purely his invention and has no basis in any actual program that I'm aware of.  If I remember correctly, he actually did a cutaway illustration of the airplane which had no fewer than 4 engines.  Indeed, looking at the design, except for the canted verticals and top mounted intake, it bears little homage to low observable aircraft design.

Offline sferrin

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #32 on: November 22, 2007, 10:01:36 am »
has no basis in any actual program that I'm aware of

Read what I wrote.  I said it's fictional.



Indeed, looking at the design, except for the canted verticals and top mounted intake, it bears little homage to low observable aircraft design.

On the contrary, it embodies everything the public thought stealth would look like in those days: upper surface inlets, smooth curvy edges, inward canted tails, canards (because they looked futuristic so all future fighter drawings had them pretty much), and 2D exhaust.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2007, 10:03:37 am by sferrin »
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Offline flateric

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #33 on: November 22, 2007, 10:42:59 am »
Read this and following, *very interesting* commentary from Elmayerle
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,185.msg15039.html#msg15039
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline Merv_P

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #34 on: November 22, 2007, 01:04:46 pm »
The artwork you are showing was done by an artist named Atilla Hejja. 

I see Hejja died suddenly about three months ago.

http://www.antonnews.com/oysterbayenterprisepilot/2007/09/07/obituaries/




Offline doggedman

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #35 on: November 22, 2007, 07:53:47 pm »
Atilla died of a heart attack.  I became friends with him through another artist I know, John Batchelor.  Atilla was one of the best aerospace artists I've ever met.  You might be interested to know that he and John also designed the V-44, a 4 engine version of the V-22 that appeared in Popular Mechanics some time ago.  I understand that Boeing and Textron have looked at the configuration and even had a CGI movie of the V-44 at the Farnborough air show in 2006.

I think a great deal of public information was and is available regarding Low Observable aircraft design. Two references that comes to mind are Skolnik's book as well as Pyotr Ufimtsev's work on ray tracing.  None of these works reference canards, inward canted tails, or smooth curvey edges as a the essentials for an LO design.

The planform of an LO penetrator (a fighter, reconnaissance, or bomber aircraft that penetrates hostile, defended airspace) generally employs a straight leading edge for the fuselage, wings, and empennage.  Straight, and if possible parallel, edges allow you to focus and reflect incoming energy in specific directions (spikes).  The configurations of the Have Blue, F-117, B-2, A-12, YF-23, F-22, X-32, F-35, and Boeing's Bird of Prey all retain the same straight, parallel edge configuration to some degree.  Attilla's fuselage and wing design employs a continuous compound curve which results in an omni-directional scattering source; anathema to LO design.  The canted verticals also employ compound curves which would themselves be large scattering sources.  As a separate note, radar absorbing materials are employed to attenuate or reduce the signature.

Whereas the planform employs straight edges, expanding the planform to accommodate volume does employ continuous compound curves in order to scatter incoming energy away from the source of emission.  Looking at the B-2 nose on gives a clear illustration of this as the fuselage blending into the wing is a continuous compound curve.

Some aircraft, such as the Lockheed/Boeing Tier 3- Dark Star had nearly straight wings and a semicircular fuselage.  This creates a nose-aft spike which is desired for surveillance aircraft as they fly parallel to threat radars vs. penetrating. 

Canards have little, if anything to do with LO design. Neither does smooth curvey edges or inward canted verticals.  Indeed both the F-117 and YF-23 had outwardly canted verticals.  To the best of my knowledge only the Have Blue demonstrators had inwardly canted verticals and I believe Lockheed really regretted doing that. In fact LO design would want you to eliminate as many control surfaces as possible (fore, aft, or vertical).  You are correct about the inlets, however, as the top mounted inlets allow you to obscure the engine front face and avoid the scintillation effect caused by the rotating machinery.  One final point, LO aircraft designers for the most part are electrical engineers and Physicists who care primarily about electrical emissivity not aerodynamics.

Offline sferrin

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #36 on: November 22, 2007, 09:16:55 pm »
Atilla died of a heart attack.  I became friends with him through another artist I know, John Batchelor.  Atilla was one of the best aerospace artists I've ever met.  You might be interested to know that he and John also designed the V-44, a 4 engine version of the V-22 that appeared in Popular Mechanics some time ago.  I understand that Boeing and Textron have looked at the configuration and even had a CGI movie of the V-44 at the Farnborough air show in 2006.

I think a great deal of public information was and is available regarding Low Observable aircraft design. Two references that comes to mind are Skolnik's book as well as Pyotr Ufimtsev's work on ray tracing.  None of these works reference canards, inward canted tails, or smooth curvey edges as a the essentials for an LO design.

The planform of an LO penetrator (a fighter, reconnaissance, or bomber aircraft that penetrates hostile, defended airspace) generally employs a straight leading edge for the fuselage, wings, and empennage.  Straight, and if possible parallel, edges allow you to focus and reflect incoming energy in specific directions (spikes).  The configurations of the Have Blue, F-117, B-2, A-12, YF-23, F-22, X-32, F-35, and Boeing's Bird of Prey all retain the same straight, parallel edge configuration to some degree.  Attilla's fuselage and wing design employs a continuous compound curve which results in an omni-directional scattering source; anathema to LO design.  The canted verticals also employ compound curves which would themselves be large scattering sources.  As a separate note, radar absorbing materials are employed to attenuate or reduce the signature.

Whereas the planform employs straight edges, expanding the planform to accommodate volume does employ continuous compound curves in order to scatter incoming energy away from the source of emission.  Looking at the B-2 nose on gives a clear illustration of this as the fuselage blending into the wing is a continuous compound curve.

Some aircraft, such as the Lockheed/Boeing Tier 3- Dark Star had nearly straight wings and a semicircular fuselage.  This creates a nose-aft spike which is desired for surveillance aircraft as they fly parallel to threat radars vs. penetrating. 

Canards have little, if anything to do with LO design. Neither does smooth curvey edges or inward canted verticals.  Indeed both the F-117 and YF-23 had outwardly canted verticals.  To the best of my knowledge only the Have Blue demonstrators had inwardly canted verticals and I believe Lockheed really regretted doing that. In fact LO design would want you to eliminate as many control surfaces as possible (fore, aft, or vertical).  You are correct about the inlets, however, as the top mounted inlets allow you to obscure the engine front face and avoid the scintillation effect caused by the rotating machinery.  One final point, LO aircraft designers for the most part are electrical engineers and Physicists who care primarily about electrical emissivity not aerodynamics.

You seem to keep missing the forrest for the trees.  I didn't say it WAS representative of a stealth aircraft, I said it was representative of what the public THOUGHT a stealth aircraft would look like.
"DARPA Hard"  It ain't what it use to be.

Offline flateric

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #37 on: December 06, 2007, 02:11:46 pm »
That famous Atilla Hejja's LORAL ad
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline consealed

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2008, 07:06:24 am »
3 VIEWS MUSTN'T BE LOST ;D
The key to any great story not is who or what, when or where, but why

Offline Helodriver

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #39 on: August 25, 2008, 08:46:19 pm »
It looks like at some point someone took Atilla Hejja's stealth design seriously. The link has images of a model built by Wesco Models out of Baldwin Park, California. This was a company known for producing models of prototypes and design studies for the major aerospace companies in the LA basin, and not known for making toys or things for mass production. As you can see it it a very fair representation of the Loral artwork, even more than the later Monogram "F-19" model.  the question is, which came first? Atilla's or the professional prototype model shop's? BTW, Wesco went out of the model business in mid 1980s.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8686041@N02/2798961456/in/photostream/

Offline flateric

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #40 on: September 04, 2008, 07:05:18 pm »
Here we go...
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline XP67_Moonbat

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #41 on: September 06, 2008, 09:25:28 pm »
OMG!

I took one look at the little black lifting body toy page 1 of this thread. It was like seeing an old childhood friend. I used to have two of those when I was a kid. The fins came off the first one. So I bought another one. Then later on I made two fins from an old credit card and superglued them to plane 1, canted outwardly. I dont remember what happened to them. Wish I had saved them.
In God we trust, all others we monitor. :-p

Offline flateric

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #42 on: September 16, 2008, 02:24:16 pm »
Lockheed artist's attempt to make first released F-117A murky photo even more wrong - authentic Lockheed's F-117A leaflet.
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Offline Firefly 2

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #43 on: September 16, 2008, 02:36:38 pm »


It even slipped into the Belgian comic world

Offline Justo Miranda

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #44 on: September 16, 2008, 03:29:00 pm »
From my files
Post 1

Offline Cutaway

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #45 on: November 07, 2008, 06:04:35 pm »
I know of "F-19A" models being released to the public to confuse communist spy rings during the 1980s, But is it possible this aircraft or somthing like it exists?. Its becouse the design from Monogram models is based on a design by Loral and is also more aircraft-like than the one made by Testors.

Wherever it is real or not, I believe the "F-19A Specter" would be a feasible design for a fighter aircraft that will offer a wide range of capabilities, even for todays technology.

The first image below is the concept by Loral Inc:

Quote
In 1972, the United States Air Force issued a Request For Proposal (RFP) to Northrop, McDonnell-Douglas, and General Dynamics for a supersonic stealth aircraft.
All three companies submitted design proposals in early 1974. On 2 September 1974, it was quietly announced that Northrop would be prime contractor of PROJECT SPECTER

(It is interesting to note that the design submitted by General Dynamics would later be the “cranked arrow” F-16XL that would later compete against the F-15E in the light strike fighter/bomber competition in 1985.)
Northrop went to work immediately following the contract announcement. Special Project 711 was underway. Northrop had to invent new technologies for project 711. Engineers decided to incorporate a Fly-by-Wire flight control system, use of carbon-fiber epoxy as the main component of the airframe and the new Sperry APQ-118 fire control system. Project 711 also had to make use of the new Hughes AIM-78X low observable air-to-air/air-to-ground missile. The decision was also made that there would be six preproduction prototype aircraft.
To speed the design and build process, Northrop used many “off-the-shelf” parts. The nose landing gear system was from the F-5E Tiger II, the main landing gear came from the F-18A Hornet, in which Northrop is sub-sub-contractor. The main landing gear wheels and came from mothballed F-4C/D/E Phantom II’s in the Boneyard. Northrop, acting as a foreign entity through the permission of the President of the United States, purchased F-16A canopy assemblies for the project. The majority of the avionics were also proven avionics systems found in other aircraft minus specialized ECM equipment.

Design features included a wing folding mechanism that are horizontal for take-off and landing, then can droop up to 30 degrees in flight and then fold back on top of the wing when parked. The droop tip design extends the cruise range by allowing the aircraft to ride its own shock wave, hence reducing fuel consumption. The intake ramps pivot up to fair over the intake for extended glide stealth target approach, the breather doors for the engine compressors open when the aircraft performing high-g maneuvers. The Rapid Rotating Weapon Pallet (RRWP) provides a wide variety of mission profiles for all weapons.
On August 2, 1982, Special Project 711, now officially called the F-19A Specter, made it’s official rollout from the Northrop Black Cat facility under extreme secrecy. Following a Northrop flight test program, the aircraft was delivered to the Air Force on 15 December 1982. Specter One arrived at Groom Lake, Nevada under the cover of darkness by Lt. Col. Chester “Devastator” Moore. Specter One became part of the 440th Test Wing, 199th Test and Evaluation Squadron. Specter crews were chosen from the top fighter and reconnaissance pilots in the Air Force.

A total of six pre-production Engineering Manufacturing and Design (EMD) test aircraft were delivered to the 199th in 1982 and 1983.
Specter One was used for flight envelope testing.
Specter Two was used for stealth and penetration testing.
Specter Three was the armament test bed.
Specter Four was used for ballistics tests.
Specter Five was the dedicated pilot training aircraft.
Specter Six, also know as “Groom’s Gal” was the first Specter to be used in a full up exercise and had the complete suite of defensive, offensive avionics suites installed. Complete avionic suites would be added to all aircraft by May 1984.

Specter Six, also know as “Groom’s Gal” was the first Specter to be used in a full up exercise and had the complete suite of defensive, offensive avionics suites installed. Complete avionic suites would be added to all aircraft by May 1984

During the Operational Test and Evaluation (OT&E) of the Specter in the May 1984, the aircrafts performed flawlessly. The F-19 held a mission capable rate of 98.7% of all sorties tasked. When word was delivered that the F-19 met all mission requirements; the decision was made to put the F-19 into low rate initial production (LRIP).
An order was placed in July 1986 for 100 F-19A and 25 F-19B two-place fighter/trainer aircraft from Northrop for the USAF. It looked as though the Specter program had nothing but smooth sailing ahead of it.
As with all black budget programs, no disclosure was made due to national security, but that year, Congress had changed the rules concerning black budget programs. Congress had demanded where and how much money was being spent on the program. After intense pressure, then President Ronald Reagan released all information on PROJECT SPECTER. The cost overruns were astronomical. The F-19 was 10 million dollars over budget. When word of this circulated around Capital Hill, cancellation of the program was imminent.

Almost one year to the day, July 1987, Congress announced that the F-19 Specter was to be cancelled. On an interesting note, Lockheed already had a stealth aircraft, the F-117 Nighthawk, flying at the Tonopah Test Range, Nevada. But since both aircraft teams were sworn to secrecy, neither knew of each other’s existence.
The news was devastating to both Northrop and the Specter team at Groom Lake. Due to the secret nature of the aircraft, it was decided that all six Specter stay at Groom Lake and be disposition on site:
Specter Two was stripped of it components and was towed to the flight line fire pit for fire training and of last report was completely destroyed after one fire exercise due to the carbon fiber make up of the aircraft.
Specter Three was used as a maintenance trainer in Composite Airframe Battle Damage Repair (CABDR) and by 1995 there was little left of the aircraft to be recognizable as an F-19; it was eventually hauled away to an undisclosed location. Rumor has it that it is buried under the Bellagio Hotel in Las Vegas.
Specter Four was placed out on the live fire test range and was eventually destroyed by it’s rival, the F-117A Nighthawk, aircraft number 790, in a bombing run.

Specter Five was destroyed in a training accident in 1985 when the primary flight control hydraulic pump failed in flight. The pilot ejected safely.
Specter Six was also destroyed in a training accident in 1986 when pilot, Capt. Dirk “Squarejaw” Pottenger over stressed the airframe in a 15g turn and catastrophic airframe damage occurred. Luckily, Squarejaw did eject safely and now in the Guinness Book of World Records as the only human to survive a 15g ejection from an aircraft.
Perhaps the most interesting disposition is Specter One. Specter One remained at Groom Lake for limited flight-testing. This aircraft was used to test a wide range of programs. Specter One holds the distinction as being the test bed for the now famous “Hill II” paint scheme, found on the F-4G Wild Weasel. In 1988, Specter One was turned over to NASA for High-Speed Stealth Research (HSSR). When NASA finished the HSSR program in 1994, it was stripped of all equipment and the USAF released the aircraft for static display at the Pima County Air Museum in Arizona. Specter One remained on display until 1997, when it was discovered, that a foreign government had, in essence, copied the F-19. The USAF took possession of the aircraft and it was towed to nearby Davis-Monthan Air Force Base. It is rumored that the aircraft stayed at Davis-Monthan for two-years under going an extensive modification program. In the summer of 1999, the last remaining F-19A Specter was seen taking-off from the main runway at dusk, never to be seen again.

EPILOGUE
Northrop tried to regain its glory in the fighter aircraft industry in the 1980s with the F-20 Tigershark. Even though it was flown by famous test pilot, Charles “Chuck” Yeager and endorsed by him as the finest jet fighter ever built, the USAF had no need for the aircraft. Since the U.S. would not buy the aircraft, there was little hope for foreign sales. After a series of fatal crashes, the F-20 was cancelled. But, Northrop had an ace in the hole.
Northrop, vowing not to be counted out as a contender in the stealth race, won the B-2 stealth bomber contract. The B-2A has met all design requirements and is in full production. But all was not well.

Once again the USAF released a design requirement for the Advanced Technology Fighter (ATF) program. Competing bids by Lockheed/Boeing/General Dynamics and Northrop/McDonnell-Douglas were awarded and a fly-off would determine the winner. Once again Lockheed came out on top and was awarded the ATF contract for the F-22 Raptor. Sources state that
Northrop’s entry, the YF-23, was clearly a superior aircraft and the reason it as not awarded to them was that Northrop held the B-2 bomber contract.
As for F-19A, serial number AF81-0001, Specter One, its current location and mission are unknown. Several sources, close to the author, have stated seeing the F-19A during operations over Kosovo and recently in OPERATION IRAQI FREEDOM. Air Force officials do admit that Specter One is still in service and is only used when absolutely necessary. There is some talk as to producing ten more F-19’s with updated 21st Century technology and carrying the F-19C designation. Only time and budget will tell…
« Last Edit: November 08, 2008, 05:26:51 am by flateric »
DILLIGAF KB Wilson.
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Offline flateric

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #46 on: November 08, 2008, 05:42:40 am »
I know of "F-19A" models being released to the public to confuse communist spy rings during the 1980s, But is it possible this aircraft or somthing like it exists?. Its becouse the design from Monogram models is based on a design by Loral and is also more aircraft-like than the one made by Testors.

Wherever it is real or not, I believe the "F-19A Specter" would be a feasible design for a fighter aircraft that will offer a wide range of capabilities, even for todays technology.

I believe it's not. Planform shapes (continously curved edges) proved to be much more RCS hot-spots that one could suggest - in one moment of time you have at least one sector of edge looking stright to radar (it was one of the mistakes learned by MDC during their Quiet Attack Aircraft study for ONR in early 70s).
In terms of aerodynamics this configuration for a *fighter* is non-plausable, too - imagine things that will happen to intakes airflow and tiny vertical tails already at AoA=5.
This is oneof the cases when rule 'nice looking aircraft fly nice' is non-applicable.
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline frank

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #47 on: November 08, 2008, 06:09:19 am »
      In 1983, Revell-Germany announced a 1/32 model of the "F-19" & it was supposedly based on the LORAL design. Rumor is the model was canceled at the request of the US Gov't.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2008, 06:42:23 am by flateric »

Offline flateric

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #48 on: December 19, 2008, 07:38:29 am »
Interbational Combat Arms, March 1987, on Testors F-19 model
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline frank

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #49 on: December 19, 2008, 08:15:24 am »

    Toy?! TOY?! He calls a MODEL a TOY?????????



Interbational Combat Arms, March 1987, on Testors F-19 model

Offline Tailspin Turtle

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #50 on: December 19, 2008, 10:12:10 am »
My theory is that if someone who had seen Have Blue described it over the telephone to somebody at Testors (and John Andrews would have answered the call), then what you might get from that conversation might very well look like the "F-19": single seat, low aspect ratio delta wing extending to the nose, twin canted-in vertical fins, engine inlets above the wing and "blocked" off, etc. (The model is by Dan Lee.)

« Last Edit: December 19, 2008, 02:02:53 pm by Tailspin Turtle »

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #51 on: December 19, 2008, 10:35:11 am »
I think its certainly possible. Reminds me of the story of how when Marco Polo first saw a rhino he thought it was a unicorn.
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Offline flateric

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #52 on: December 19, 2008, 11:33:57 am »
he may be seing Have Blue in hangar while moving in car along the line - front views are almost exactly match
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline r16

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #53 on: December 20, 2008, 01:34:06 am »
ı have seen a Stingray in a book published in early 1990s . Reputedly McDonnell Douglas entry in the programme won by the A-12 , you can always establish a relationship between it and  Testor's Mig-37 , which we all know really infuriated Pentagon . But would it be "bisonic " enough to be the actual '19 ı wouldn't know .

Offline flateric

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #54 on: December 21, 2008, 06:46:34 am »
Hejja's art in full beauty
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline The Artist

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #55 on: November 21, 2009, 10:16:59 pm »
My theory is that if someone who had seen Have Blue described it over the telephone to somebody at Testors (and John Andrews would have answered the call), then what you might get from that conversation might very well look like the "F-19": single seat, low aspect ratio delta wing extending to the nose, twin canted-in vertical fins, engine inlets above the wing and "blocked" off, etc. (The model is by Dan Lee.)



Now, The theory I'm proposing is based on a conversation I had several years back with friends in the Gateway IPMS chapter. (some of those friends worked for Big Mac - now McBoeing -  at one time or another)

What if the shape developed for the Testors kit was derived from either photos or description of an airframe wrapped for shipment? If you look at the Have Blue shape and think about how it would look all wrapped up you could arrive at something suggesting the Testors shape. The same could be be said for a F-117 wrapped with the wings removed. Additionally I've heard of deception being incorporated into the wrapping process such as filled trash bags being placed between an aircraft and the wrap to distort the shape.

Mike
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Offline The Artist

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #56 on: November 21, 2009, 10:31:01 pm »
After unveiling F-117A heavily mastered photo in November, 1988, numerous attempts were made to imagine fighter 3-view and understand how all this faceted stuff situated.
First one comes from guru Bill Sweetman, with an additional effort from Interavia magazine artist to reveal facets at official photo. (c) Bill Sweetman/Interavia (January, 1989)
 

I'm not sure how to get the photo into the quote but the pic is on the first page of this thread.

Not too long ago I played around with the Academy 1/72 scale F-117 kit in trying to recreate the viewing angle in that first USAF official photograph. This was done with the mark-1 eyeball so I don't have any pics to post. I'm convinced that this pic was taken at a distance with a long lens then cropped to look like a close-up shot. Additionally, from the quality of the image, I suspect that the pic was taken from a frame of a movie - most likely a 16mm movie.

Additionally, I played around with my KR Models X-20 and I found that a similar viewing angle can create a deceptive view of that shape.

Mike
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Hiccup Horrendous Haddock III

Offline frank

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #57 on: November 22, 2009, 06:05:34 am »

        Just a few months after the Nov '88 F-117 photo was released, the now defunct(?) Lunar Models made a 1/72 resin model of it based on that view. It was shorter & wider than later more accurate kits. ISTR it used F-18 type of gear. I think I still have the model somewhere.



After unveiling F-117A heavily mastered photo in November, 1988, numerous attempts were made to imagine fighter 3-view and understand how all this faceted stuff situated.
First one comes from guru Bill Sweetman, with an additional effort from Interavia magazine artist to reveal facets at official photo. (c) Bill Sweetman/Interavia (January, 1989)
 

I'm not sure how to get the photo into the quote but the pic is on the first page of this thread.

Not too long ago I played around with the Academy 1/72 scale F-117 kit in trying to recreate the viewing angle in that first USAF official photograph. This was done with the mark-1 eyeball so I don't have any pics to post. I'm convinced that this pic was taken at a distance with a long lens then cropped to look like a close-up shot. Additionally, from the quality of the image, I suspect that the pic was taken from a frame of a movie - most likely a 16mm movie.

Additionally, I played around with my KR Models X-20 and I found that a similar viewing angle can create a deceptive view of that shape.

Mike

Offline shedofdread

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #58 on: November 22, 2009, 06:20:09 am »
For me, the thing that makes the whole F19 (Loral) thing look utterly fake is the fin location. Far too far forward to offer any yaw stability.

BTW, first post here so 'Hi' to everyone - very interesting site.

S

Offline robunos

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #59 on: November 22, 2009, 10:11:48 am »
Quote
  Just a few months after the Nov '88 F-117 photo was released, the now defunct(?) Lunar Models made a 1/72 resin model of it based on that view. It was shorter & wider than later more accurate kits

One of the big boy kit makers (italeri??) made a small-scale (1/100, 1/144??) double kit with a B-2 and F-117, and the F-117 was this foreshortened version.


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Offline flateric

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #60 on: November 22, 2009, 12:19:00 pm »
DML/Dragon 1:200
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline robunos

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #61 on: November 22, 2009, 02:12:29 pm »
Quote
DML/Dragon 1:200

Yep, that's the one, thanks...


cheers,
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Where ARE the Daleks when you need them......

Offline fightingirish

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #62 on: June 05, 2010, 02:58:24 pm »
Quote from: attitude @ forum.keypublishing.co.uk
There is an 80's movie with Chevy Chase where he is an arms dealer with an intelligent UCAV.
It also stars Gregory Hines and Sigourney Weaver..
It's called "Deal of the Century".
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085412/
Trailer:

In the end at an arms show the UCAV goes mental and Gregory Hines jumps into the cockpit of an F-19X and chases down the UCAV and destroys it..
Its the only movie I've seen with an "F-19" portrayed in it.
Quote from: SpudmanWP@ forum.keypublishing.co.uk
Looks like it was neither, but a new design.
Takeoff

Profile

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Three more shots:

Top


Rear


Cockpit
Slán,
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Slán ist an Irish Gaelic word for Goodbye.  :)

Offline archipeppe

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #63 on: June 06, 2010, 01:31:03 am »
Interesting, this movie is totally new to me (probably never made it all the way to Italy...) and indeed I'm a Chase's fan.

The fictional aircraft seems to have more connection with ATF proposal rather than the XST one. It seems also to have some point of contact with the later Northrop YF-23.

Offline dannydale

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #64 on: June 06, 2010, 12:30:15 pm »
For me, the thing that makes the whole F19 (Loral) thing look utterly fake is the fin location. Far too far forward to offer any yaw stability.

BTW, first post here so 'Hi' to everyone - very interesting site.

S
That's what nagged me about the Loral F-19 ever since I was a little kid, actually. I just didn't know what that particular wrong was actually called at the time.  :D

Offline frank

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #65 on: June 17, 2010, 02:06:51 pm »

  It wasn't exactly portrayed as the F-19. Its designation was "X-19F", IIRC. Also, ISTR reading somewhere that one of the Firefox models was cut up & used as the basis for the X-19F. I guess maybe the wing, part of the fuselage & maybe the engine intakes show the kinship.

Offline The Artist

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #66 on: June 18, 2010, 12:52:22 am »
If anyone has a copy of the movie Brainstorm, (I don't) please take a look at it. I think there was an F-19 or other stealth fighter design in that one. They had their Human test subject in a full motion simulator flying the thing while they recorded his mind and you saw a quick CG sequence of the thing in flight.
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Offline Cutaway

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« Last Edit: July 02, 2010, 08:11:21 am by Cutaway »
DILLIGAF KB Wilson.
Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoset.
(Not KB Wilson ).

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #68 on: July 01, 2010, 05:49:56 pm »
Going back on this page, I realize that from this angle, the movie guys got some design features incredibly right a solid decade before the F-23 ever came into view...


Offline flateric

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #69 on: July 02, 2010, 01:58:56 am »
please use damn attachments
don't post links to images at other site
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #70 on: July 02, 2010, 03:55:55 am »
please use damn attachments
don't post links to images at other site

When it's my pics, fine, but here it's another pic from the very same page that's already linked there!!!

Offline Nick

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #71 on: July 17, 2010, 02:44:42 am »
It's kind of strange seeing my RAF F-19 being linked to from another site while it's actually sitting in my display case behind me here! B)

Offline stevee617

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #72 on: October 10, 2010, 11:28:39 pm »
I know of "F-19A" models being released to the public to confuse communist spy rings during the 1980s, But is it possible this aircraft or somthing like it exists?. Its becouse the design from Monogram models is based on a design by Loral and is also more aircraft-like than the one made by Testors.

Wherever it is real or not, I believe the "F-19A Specter" would be a feasible design for a fighter aircraft that will offer a wide range of capabilities, even for todays technology.

The first image below is the concept by Loral Inc:

Quote
In 1972, the United States Air Force issued a Request For Proposal (RFP) to Northrop, McDonnell-Douglas, and General Dynamics for a supersonic stealth aircraft.
All three companies submitted design proposals in early 1974. On 2 September 1974, it was quietly announced that Northrop would be prime contractor of PROJECT SPECTER

I just came a cross this....this is MY story to go along with the model that I build on ARC a few years ago...you can find the whole thing here: http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Fea1/901-1000/Fea915_F-19_Eggers/00.shtm
« Last Edit: October 11, 2010, 12:32:02 am by flateric »

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #73 on: October 11, 2010, 06:20:23 am »
I just came a cross this....this is MY story to go along with the model that I build on ARC a few years ago...you can find the whole thing here: http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Fea1/901-1000/Fea915_F-19_Eggers/00.shtm

I remember visiting your page years ago. Although it was clearly a fictional depiction of the F-19 project, I assumed at the time that the text did contain some true information. Did you actually made it all up? If so, you may not realize that this has been widely circulated on the web! And if there was some element of truth in it, what did you base it upon?

Offline stevee617

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #74 on: October 11, 2010, 11:05:14 pm »
I just came a cross this....this is MY story to go along with the model that I build on ARC a few years ago...you can find the whole thing here: http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Fea1/901-1000/Fea915_F-19_Eggers/00.shtm

I remember visiting your page years ago. Although it was clearly a fictional depiction of the F-19 project, I assumed at the time that the text did contain some true information. Did you actually made it all up? If so, you may not realize that this has been widely circulated on the web! And if there was some element of truth in it, what did you base it upon?

UMMM.....WOW, That's amazing. Because quite honestly, I really did make it all up. I actually put some humor into it that nobody ever got. For example:


"Special Project 711" - F-117 backwards
"Lt. Col Chester "Devastator" Moore" - Lt. Col. Moore was a USAF test pilot on the F-22 program. I got his name off the decal sheet
“Squarejaw” - A Mystery Science Theater 3000 episode that I was one night and the commentary by Tom Servo was priceless!

"the last remaining F-19A Specter was seen taking-off from the main runway at dusk, never to be seen again. " - That scene is from the CBC Production "The Arrow", where one Avro Arrow escaped distruction.


To be quite honest I am flattered!  Check out my B-2 on ARC:
http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Gal10/9201-9300/gal9207-B-2-Eggers/00.shtm
« Last Edit: October 11, 2010, 11:23:48 pm by stevee617 »

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #75 on: October 12, 2010, 01:26:13 am »
Oh yeah! I remember that one too! But at least on the "B-2" page it was made clear from the start that it was an alternate storyline. Besides, the model was clearly inspired by the imaginings of Bill Gunston in his Osprey Warplanes series. Not so with the Specter. The story is so brilliantly written and the details so perversely accurate that many people fell for it at the time, me included! Congratulations.

Offline cthippo

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #76 on: February 06, 2011, 10:00:11 pm »
  Is anyone aware of someone having built a flying model of the Testors F-19 design?  I would be really curious to know how it flew and what it's RCS was.  Would be neat to look at these design concepts and see if any of them would have worked aerodynamically and from the "stealth" perspective.

Offline OM

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #77 on: February 18, 2011, 07:04:27 pm »
  Is anyone aware of someone having built a flying model of the Testors F-19 design? 

...Not an R/C version, but I've seen a couple of scratchbuilt model rocketry versions over the years. Flew straight up pretty stable, but they weren't allowed to glide back down having a nose cone that popped off to allow the F-19 to dangle from a chute. ISTR some comments on another forum about 10 years ago or so about how a couple of old hands at Langley put the Testors kit through a wind tunnel with mixed results, but nothing I can pull up using Google-Fu, alas.

Offline shedofdread

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #78 on: February 23, 2011, 10:48:53 am »
Pretty sure I saw an electric ducted - fan one on one of the R/C forum sites. IIRC it flew well... or so the designer / builder said! It looked rather nice and was a composite moulding. So long as it's built light enough and there's enough power, I can't imagine there would be a problem flying it, apart from the fin location which might make yaw stability a bit marginal.

S

Offline quellish

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #79 on: February 23, 2011, 12:11:44 pm »
Here is one:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=799368&page=2

Not sure if this is the same one....
« Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 12:14:11 pm by quellish »

Offline shedofdread

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #80 on: February 24, 2011, 07:38:02 am »
^ Yes, that's the one I had in mind :)

S

Offline OM

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #81 on: February 28, 2011, 12:08:05 am »
^ Yes, that's the one I had in mind :)

...Anyone else reminded of the Flying Sub on a Lydecker Rig while watching that clip?  :D

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #82 on: October 05, 2011, 10:10:35 am »
Loral Aerospace F-19 model found on eBay.

URL:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-1980s-Stealth-Fighter-Factory-Concept-Loral-F-19A-not-Topping-EXCELLENT-/200658259841?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eb82a0f81

Seller's description:
Quote
Loral Aerospace commissioned a run of several dozen of these models in 1981 to promote its passive digital electronics suites to aerospace companies secretly designing stealthy aircraft and ships.  People knew a stealth fighter (later revealed as F-117) was flying but didn't know its shape yet. Loral ordered two versions--silver and black. Loral CEO Bernard Schwartz was photographed with this on his desk. Fuselage length is about 15" and wingspan is 10". The deep black paint is finished with a very high gloss coat. All decals are perfect; only flaw on the model is a tiny paint chip. Stand is in excellent shape also, with some unobtrusive scratches on the bottom since it never had any pads.

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #83 on: October 05, 2011, 12:11:07 pm »
The pics:



Offline Skyblazer

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #84 on: October 05, 2011, 01:04:17 pm »
The original Loral ads and promo material using the design (please note the different, unblended canards in the first depiction):


Offline circle-5

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #85 on: October 06, 2011, 06:08:52 pm »
One bidder asks an interesting question: "Does the paint chip increase the radar cross-section?"

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #86 on: October 07, 2011, 04:55:50 am »
One bidder asks an interesting question: "Does the paint chip increase the radar cross-section?"

Yep, and the seller's full answer is quite funny too:

Quote
Exact figures are classified, but loss of that radar absorbent material chip indeed degraded the monostatic RCS profile significantly at the Helendale range. As a result I decided to bring the entire F-19A Spector program out of the black world. First step was de-accessioning this model from its secure vault beneath Groom Lake. I am authorized to reveal that non-PayPal offers were immediately made by John Cashio; a mid-level apparatchik at Sukhoi; and an apparent animal rights group calling itself The Skunk Works. After careful study by the procurement team that managed the USAF tanker bids for a decade, I decided to instead offer it to the eBay model collector community, known to be notoriously secretive about the origins of its own assets. Thanks for a great laugh, chuckandconnie!

Offline flateric

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #87 on: October 08, 2011, 09:42:28 am »
F-19s (Sweetman's/Badrocke concept, Loral concept based Monogram 1:48 model. and Testors model, too) made their appearance in 1988 spy comedy 'Zits' by Arthur Sherman with Ilya Baskin as russian spy Timoshenko
if you can borrow a copy on VHS (no DVD was ever released) you will spent some nice time back in 80s

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096509/reviews














"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline dannydale

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #88 on: October 08, 2011, 12:35:48 pm »
I remember seeing plastic toy models of something like the Loral F-19 back in the late 80s-early 90s. They were sold at this yellow and stainless-steel monstrosity of a supermarket chain called The Real Superstore. They were nearly as garish: black with flourescent orange cockpit canopy, missiles, intakes, and exhaust! ???

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #89 on: October 10, 2011, 06:23:59 am »
I have a little die-cast toy of that F-19 fighter too.  Ah, the memories.

Offline Jemiba

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #90 on: October 15, 2011, 07:43:50 am »
I have a little die-cast toy of that F-19 fighter too.  Ah, the memories.

They are all around !   ;D
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline The Artist

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #91 on: October 16, 2011, 08:19:32 pm »
And in different colors. Mine is overall light lime green with light yellow and black trim
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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #92 on: October 17, 2011, 10:33:21 am »
Mine's the typical black.  It's a newer toy.

Offline antigravite

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #93 on: November 18, 2012, 04:59:48 am »
117th Intelligence Squadron Patch using a Northrop / Loral F19 Specter concept art design
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
L e t   b o l d s   b e   l i g h t
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Offline airrocket

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #94 on: February 13, 2013, 11:26:34 pm »
The Loral (Northtop) F-19 was the real deal it did exist the models you see are very close to the actual design planform. The Testor's F-19 is more of a fantasy model which has taken on the F-19 mystic while the real F-19 is the Loral. It did exist as a real concept and very likely it did fly and perhaps one is still out there..... It is a direct Grandparent of the YF-23 much of the Loral was translated to the B2 and YF-23. And much of the stealth incorporated in to the Loral design is period correct its place in stealth evolution.

The Loral F-19 planform has been flown as an RC EDF and way back in the day prior to the modern micro gyro's as an all composite large scale late 80's  scratch built messy old gas powered ducted fan flown by "seat-of-the -pants".

So yes that planform can fly and rather well actually. Modern micro gyro's allow it to fly very solid and smooth as an RC model just as a real one may have back in the day.

The Loral F-19 was mostly based on "source distribution technique" like the B-2 rather than the the angular faceted method. If one is familiar with source distribution you will recognize it clearly at play in the planform shape of the Loral models and art work.

The Loral F-19 is much more accepted as being a reality in the mainstream today.

All the pieces of the Loral F-19 fit very nicely into the F-19 puzzle... I believe so because they belong there.

This is a case where the legend is much more of a mystery than the reality.
Vis Viva

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #95 on: February 14, 2013, 05:14:07 am »
The Loral (Northrop) F-19 (...) did exist as a real concept and very likely it did fly and perhaps one is still out there.

I am convinced that there WAS an F-19 aircraft that had nothing to do with the F-117, and this for several reasons:
  • The skipping of "F-19" makes no sense. The stealth program was not that much of a secret until the late 1970s. Work on Have Blue was hinted at as early as 1973 or 1974. The "F-19" slot corresponds to that period when stealth was in development but not yet top secret. It is likely that whatever the "F-19" was, the designation was made secret as an afterthought.
  • The F-117 never was a fighter but an attack aircraft and therefore belonged in the A- class. It could NOT have been the "F-19".
  • In the early days of the internet, I saved a whole page of very detailed specs for the F-19 fighter from the website of a perfectly serious and genuine aircraft supplier that allegedly provided parts for the type and had no reason to make up the whole thing.
  • If stealth attack and the bomber demonstrators were created, it makes little sense that stealth would not have been tested on a fighter design.
Besides, several aerospace companies such as Loral or Hughes featured designs of unknown combat planes in the midst of other well identified types on posters and ads showing the programs they were involved in.I have doubt however that the Northrop/Loral design (which was shown in the Loral ads and also became the Testors model) is the real one. Looks too sci-fi to me, and besides there is no reason why Northrop and Loral would have disclosed the real design in their ads at a time when stealth had become highly secret. The real item must have been a lot less impressive...

Offline Arjen

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #96 on: February 14, 2013, 05:20:55 am »
I read somewhere  - possibly on spf, alzheimer light kicking in - that Northrop wanted the F-20 designation for its F-5 derivative. Because that would make the Tigershark the first Twenty-something fighter, in stead of the last Teen-fighter.

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #97 on: February 14, 2013, 05:37:16 am »
I read somewhere  - possibly on spf, alzheimer light kicking in - that Northrop wanted the F-20 designation for its F-5 derivative. Because that would make the Tigershark the first Twenty-something fighter, in stead of the last Teen-fighter.

Heard that one too, but that doesn't mean F-19 had to be skipped. Apart from the Fisher P-75 Eagle that followed the Republic P-72, designations are rarely skipped... Apart from the *-13 designations (for superstitious reasons), most are used. Sometimes a number is skipped after several submissions were made and rejected (the C-16 for instance) but mostly that doesn't happen. The jump from F-23 to F-35 may have resulted from an official mistake, but it could also be a convenient way not to have to raise questions about the numbers in-between (we know for instance that there WAS a YF-24A though no-one knows what it was).

Offline GTX

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #98 on: February 14, 2013, 09:26:30 am »
Quote
we know for instance that there WAS a YF-24A though no-one knows what it was


We do?

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #99 on: February 14, 2013, 11:48:02 am »
People have mixed up two lines from Joe Lanni's biography:
 
http://web.archive.org/web/20050318164828/http://www.edwards.af.mil/units/bio/lanni-bio.html
 
 
Quote
Aircraft flown include: F-4C-E, F-5E, F-15, F-16A-D, F-14, F-18, HH-60G, F/A-22, YF-24

and
 
Quote
Conducted first flights of two classified prototype aircraft

Into believing YF-24 was a designation for a classified prototype stealth aircraft.
 
In fact, YF-24 seems to have been a cover designation for US evalation of an Su-27. It may or may not be one of the two "classified prototype aircraft" mentioned.
 
 Lanni was involved with the "Red Hats" so its certain that he flew foreign aircraft in the 1992 - 1997 period.
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Offline _Del_

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #100 on: February 14, 2013, 08:20:35 pm »
I'm game that the YF-24 may have represented the SU-27 in inventory, but you lose me suggesting that may qualify as one of the "prototype" aircraft. 

I'm not completely convinced that the YF-24 designation wasn't applied to the SU-27 for convenience after that little tidbit appeared in print either, but I confess that I love a good conspiracy.


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« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 06:08:08 pm by Triton »

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #102 on: April 10, 2013, 05:56:03 pm »
Additional photos of G.I. Joe X-19 Phantom Stealth Fighter toy released by Hasbro in 1988.

Source:
http://www.yojoe.com/vehicles/88/phantom/
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 06:08:34 pm by Triton »

Online Triton

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #103 on: April 10, 2013, 05:59:27 pm »
Additional photos of G.I. Joe X-19 Phantom Stealth Fighter toy released by Hasbro in 1988.

Source:
http://www.yojoe.com/vehicles/88/phantom/
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 06:09:01 pm by Triton »

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In God we trust, all others we monitor. :-p

Offline bagera3005

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #105 on: December 22, 2013, 08:32:33 pm »
blueprint of x-19 gi-joe

Offline Richard N

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #106 on: December 25, 2013, 03:37:55 pm »
A friend, who is a model maker for an aircraft manufacturer, told me about a model he saw at an IPMS Nationals before the F-117 picture came out. 
It had the then unpublicized stealth characteristics of aligned edges and surfaces.  He said it attracted a fair amount of attention and at some point was surrounded by suits and made invisible (gone). 
« Last Edit: December 25, 2013, 03:41:27 pm by Richard N »

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #107 on: December 25, 2013, 03:56:53 pm »
A friend, who is a model maker for an aircraft manufacturer, told me about a model he saw at an IPMS Nationals before the F-117 picture came out. 
It had the then unpublicized stealth characteristics of aligned edges and surfaces.  He said it attracted a fair amount of attention and at some point was surrounded by suits and made invisible (gone). 


Possibly a desktop model of the Northrop XST?

Offline Richard N

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #108 on: December 25, 2013, 05:22:14 pm »
A friend, who is a model maker for an aircraft manufacturer, told me about a model he saw at an IPMS Nationals before the F-117 picture came out. 
It had the then unpublicized stealth characteristics of aligned edges and surfaces.  He said it attracted a fair amount of attention and at some point was surrounded by suits and made invisible (gone). 


Possibly a desktop model of the Northrop XST?


I think he would have mentioned what is was if it was recognizable as something he knew of.  I'll ask him the next time I see him and find out which Nationals it was.

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #109 on: December 26, 2013, 12:38:00 am »
A friend, who is a model maker for an aircraft manufacturer, told me about a model he saw at an IPMS Nationals before the F-117 picture came out. 
It had the then unpublicized stealth characteristics of aligned edges and surfaces.  He said it attracted a fair amount of attention and at some point was surrounded by suits and made invisible (gone). 



I made a faceted model in 1986ish as a 13 year old kid after reading Bill Sweetman's book "Stealth" which described the "F-19" as being faceted. I achieved this by taking a 1/72 Italeri F-19 model and generous amounts of milliput (epoxy putty) and various plastic implements to get sharp facets. Planform alignment wasn't on my radar though and my facets were quite small - it would have been something like a 30 spike RCS. I got one half looking vaguely interesting but had no idea how to make the other half match. If only I'd owned a computer with CAD software and a mirror command....
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Offline Skyblazer

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #110 on: December 26, 2013, 04:54:50 am »
I think he would have mentioned what is was if it was recognizable as something he knew of.  I'll ask him the next time I see him and find out which Nationals it was.

But if we're talking about before the first F-117 pic was revealed, it means the Northrop design wasn't known either (unless of course you're implying that your friend's employer WAS Northrop and that therefore he would have known what it was).

Offline hesham

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #111 on: August 23, 2014, 04:43:59 am »
From the Report; Retraite anticipée pour un avion extraordinaire


a good artist drawing to Lockheed F-19.

Offline fightingirish

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #112 on: August 23, 2014, 10:24:01 am »
After unveiling F-117A heavily mastered photo in 10th November, 1988, numerous attempts were made to imagine fighter 3-view and understand how all this faceted stuff situated.
First one comes from guru Bill Sweetman, with an additional effort from Interavia magazine artist to reveal facets at official photo. (c) Bill Sweetman/Interavia (January, 1989)


Other drawings from his earlier article "USAF reveals the F-117A stealth fighter", published in Interavia December 1988, page 1221.
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Offline hesham

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #113 on: August 23, 2014, 01:44:13 pm »
Great find my dear Rolf.

Offline fightingirish

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #114 on: November 12, 2014, 04:41:12 am »
Cutaways god Mike Badrocke's and Bill Sweetman's collective impressions of a 'stealth fighter'. It was 1986 on the backyard. Already then Sweetman was aknowledged that real aircraft use faceting LO technology.
(Bill Sweetman 'Stealth Aircraft: Secrets of Future Airpower', Motorbooks International, 1986)
Source: Bill Sweetman 'Stealth Aircraft: Secrets of Future Airpower', Motorbooks International, 1986, page 67 & 68
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Offline Jeb

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #115 on: November 24, 2014, 11:18:33 am »
From the Report; Retraite anticipée pour un avion extraordinaire


a good artist drawing to Lockheed F-19.


I still have this one in die-cast.

Offline hesham

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #116 on: November 30, 2014, 05:13:41 am »
Hi Jeb,


here is anther drawing to Lockheed F-19,from Jane's All the World's Aircraft 1986-1987.

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #117 on: December 06, 2014, 04:27:48 pm »
Here is the source of the three-view drawing which appeared 'way back in Reply #2.  I have included the story that accompanied it.  Unfortunately I cannot recall the name of the magazine, which is abbreviated on the text page as "S & D 92".  From some of the expressions in the text, it appears that English was not the author's first language.  The illustrator goes by the name JODA, unless that is an acronym.  The article appeared in 1984 and while the drawing is way off, the article got many things right, so that, at the time, I thought that it had revealed the mythical F-19.  I have no idea as to what a "lamellar intake" could be (made up of thin plates?). It repeats in text and drawing the story that the airplane should fit inside a C-5.
 

Offline Steve Pace

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #118 on: December 06, 2014, 08:48:16 pm »
bogus
When you know you're right, go ahead.

Offline HeavyG

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #119 on: December 07, 2014, 01:15:29 pm »
The magazine "S&D" refers to "Strategy and Defence" which was a legitimate magazine based out of Ireland; it was short lived, only having lasted a little less that a year. I remember as I recall purchasing a few copies of this particular magazine; it's production run lasted less than a year. That artists conception is probably legit; there were similar drawings published in other magazines and books.

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #120 on: December 07, 2014, 02:55:06 pm »
It repeats in text and drawing the story that the airplane should fit inside a C-5.

I do not know if I told the story here before, but back in the days when I was a language instructor in the French Armée de l'Air (as part of my national service) our  students ranked from young aspiring student warrant officer up to colonels. At night, after supper at the mess, we would often go for a drink with some of our students and after a couple of glasses, tongues would loosen and we would hear the occasional anecdote from a former presidential pilot or a Normandie-Niemen squadron leader. That was in 1988-89, about the time when the F-117 was first revealed.

One of the officers told us that during a visit on a Spanish Air Force base during the Libyan crisis, he had witnessed some cloaked aircraft being unloaded from a C-5 Galaxy (that would have been 1986). The conclusion that he was able to draw from the episode, his own questions to his Spanish colleagues and how it fitted in the chronology of events was that initially the US had deployed a stealth fighter in the Mediterranean for use against Khadafi's MiGs (so as to end the matter quickly and safely by benefitting from the effect of surprise) but that it was later decided to go for F-14s instead. When the F-117 was revealed in 1989, he believed that this was proof that his story was correct... Now of course we all know that the F-117 is NOT a fighter and would be terrible in any air combat situation, and besides an F-117 wouldn't easily fit in a Galaxy... So what secret aircraft, capable of swift air-to-air combat and fitting within a C-5, did he see exactly?

On a side note (not related to the stealth fighter) another officer claimed that during these operations, American aircraft sent  from England, which theoretically had to go around the Iberic Peninsula (i.e. Spain and Portugal, since non-NATO aligned France would not allow for them to fly over French territory) had in fact been allowed unofficially by the French government to fly over the Western Pyrenees at night. Yet another officer claimed that some French bases in the Southern Alps area had routinely let American aircraft transit during these events. It's always difficult to prove such things of course, but when enough separate testimonies add up, they can end up giving a pretty coherent picture.

Offline Steve Pace

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #121 on: December 07, 2014, 04:49:08 pm »
Very interesting indeed - thanks for sharing! -SP
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Offline quellish

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #122 on: December 08, 2014, 11:36:20 am »

One of the officers told us that during a visit on a Spanish Air Force base during the Libyan crisis, he had witnessed some cloaked aircraft being unloaded from a C-5 Galaxy (that would have been 1986). The conclusion that he was able to draw from the episode, his own questions to his Spanish colleagues and how it fitted in the chronology of events was that initially the US had deployed a stealth fighter in the Mediterranean for use against Khadafi's MiGs (so as to end the matter quickly and safely by benefitting from the effect of surprise) but that it was later decided to go for F-14s instead. When the F-117 was revealed in 1989, he believed that this was proof that his story was correct... Now of course we all know that the F-117 is NOT a fighter and would be terrible in any air combat situation, and besides an F-117 wouldn't easily fit in a Galaxy... So what secret aircraft, capable of swift air-to-air combat and fitting within a C-5, did he see exactly?




EL DORADO CANYON was to be the combat debut of the F-117, but it was decided not to use it at the last minute. According to persons who were with the program at the time, no aircraft left the US to participate. It's certainly possible that the C-5 was carrying support equipment for the F-117s, or that it was carrying something else.

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #123 on: December 08, 2014, 01:55:18 pm »
EL DORADO CANYON was to be the combat debut of the F-117, but it was decided not to use it at the last minute. According to persons who were with the program at the time, no aircraft left the US to participate. It's certainly possible that the C-5 was carrying support equipment for the F-117s, or that it was carrying something else.

Thanks quellish. Following your comment I checked on the web for more info and the story of how they withdrew from using the F-117 at the last minute confirms the story I'd heard. I also found that what I'd been told back in the early 1990s about the use of F-117s in Panama has since been officially acknowledged, which I wasn't aware of.

Offline famvburg

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #124 on: December 09, 2014, 07:04:46 am »
ISTR AW&ST reported the use of the F-117 in Panama, but I may be remembering wrong.

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #125 on: December 09, 2014, 09:42:46 am »
ISTR AW&ST reported the use of the F-117 in Panama, but I may be remembering wrong.

I also read about the F-117 being used in Panama. Apparently 2,000lb unguided bombs were employed.

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #126 on: December 11, 2014, 10:42:46 am »
http://www.f-117a.com/Panama.html

The Panama mission (JUST CAUSE) has been public for a long time.
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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #127 on: December 11, 2014, 12:16:19 pm »
http://www.f-117a.com/Panama.html

The Panama mission (JUST CAUSE) has been public for a long time.

I'm not disputing the fact that it's been known and discussed for a while. I was talking of its being officially acknowledged; this 2003 page definitely was not official!

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #128 on: December 11, 2014, 04:23:25 pm »
It was world news on TV when it happened. -SP
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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #129 on: December 11, 2014, 04:30:04 pm »
It was world news on TV when it happened. -SP

I don't live in the US so I don't know exactly what was shown or said on TV back then.
However I vividly remember all commentators and journalists both on TV and in the press back in 1991 describing the F-117A's sorties over Baghdad as the type's first operational use.

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #130 on: December 11, 2014, 04:50:11 pm »
I'm afraid they were wrong. To the best of my recollection both ABC World News and CNN in the U.S. covered F-117s in Panama. -SP
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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #131 on: December 12, 2014, 03:56:56 am »
Oh, okay. Can a mod perhaps remove this string of useless posts on Panama? I'll edit my initial post accordingly. Thanks.

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #132 on: December 19, 2014, 11:35:33 am »
I have a hard time believing in the f 19 stealth fighter.  For starters the USA would not need to send super secret invisible fighters to deal with Libyan migs.  They could have sent over some t6 texans with 50 caliber guns for that job!

Secondly work backwards the timing for when the program was started to when the hypothetical airplane entered service.  LOCKHEED still couldn't design the atf to be an effective fighter and Northrop was still experimenting with curved shaping.


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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #133 on: December 19, 2014, 04:31:51 pm »
Oddly enough, the US Air Force National Museum lists the "Lockheed F-19 CSIRS" in its "Aircraft Fighter Designations."
http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/research/aircraft/fighter/index.asp
 
Second column, fifth from the bottom.
 
Maybe a joke, someone entered the info not realizing the designation wasn't real, or maybe F-19 was used during development of the F-117A?
 
The picture is, I believe the CSIRS by Mark Kopp. How accurate the aircraft is that reflects the CSIRS study aircraft concept I don't know.

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #134 on: December 19, 2014, 05:27:08 pm »
Considering the style of the artwork and the company's practice at that time of incorporating the design number into the paintings, I think it is a safe bet to assume that this image depicts the Northrop N363. This number is perfectly coherent with the Northrop design number chronology, placing it in 1983.

However, the would-be F-19 demonstrator, if ever built, would have been prior to that, presumably around 1981, which has led some to believe that it may have been related to another Northrop design, the smaller scale THAP demonstrator, rather than the full-scale operational CSIRS in the picture. But then a whole lot of theories and conjectures have been associated to this whole matter, so that in the end it's hard to know what to think.

One thing I know for a fact:
>> The F-19, whether built or merely planned, could NOT be the F-117A for the simple reason that the latter was always meant as a pure low altitude ground attack platform, not a fighter. The unofficial secret F-"century" series types could be anything: attack, fighter, recce... but the regular F- series was for fighters/pursuits/interceptors or whatever.

One thing I have seen (even saved, but then lost in a computer crash):
>> In the early 2000s, the webpage of an industry subcontractor (whose name I forgot) listed the projects they had been involved in, and for each of them, provided a small recap of the aircraft's performances. Surprisingly, they listed the "F-19" as a program they'd worked on and provided a whole set of specs that was clearly for a fighter and had nothing to do with the F-117A. Now why would they do that? I could not say.

One thing I very much believe:
>> With stealth being completely new and unproven, the USAF likely didn't put all their eggs in one basket and must have considered several configurations for testing and possibly several companies each working on a different type of design. Perhaps there were only Have Blue and Tacit Blue, perhaps there could have been a couple more test planes in-between that are still unheard of. But of course if there ever were such planes, they probably were failures and/or crashed, otherwise we'd have heard about them and they'd be in a museum by now. They might also have been company-financed prototypes, hence the lack of obligation by the DoD to go public about them and the lack of desire from the companies to brag about failed projects.

Offline aim9xray

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #135 on: December 19, 2014, 06:13:49 pm »
http://www.ausairpower.net/Mark-Kopp-Art.html

Scroll halfway down the memorial page for the B&W and color versions of the illustration; listed as "speculative". The art, by Australian Mark Kopp (brother to Dr. Carlo Kopp) does not appear to have any connection to Northrop.

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #136 on: December 20, 2014, 06:35:13 pm »
Considering the f-20 first rolled out in 1981 then the 19 would have to precede even that date.  Work the timeline backwards, the number of years to develop a fighter, and the 19 don't exist.  It would have to have preceded have blue and yet been so fantastic that it's stealth secrets were relevant past the revelation of the 117 and after the atf and b2 were rolled out. 


The 117 when it was still secret had a trail even a blind man could see. There is none for a stealth fighter.  Now the "manta" does have a trail not to mention being caught on camera at red flag in the late 80s.  Same for the aurora.  I think it was 1987 when national news agencies were reporting its first flights. Then mysteriously like Roswell the next day it fell down a black hole and was never heard again in the news.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2014, 06:38:43 pm by tacitblue »

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #137 on: December 21, 2014, 01:15:08 am »
Purely from a tri-service designation perspective I think it's possible there was a prototype or small run aircraft like the yf-17/yf-20. It may well have been an exciting stealthy fighter aircraft but that doesn't mean it was operational aircraft or that there was a fleet of them.
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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #138 on: December 21, 2014, 03:31:00 am »
Allow me to differ tacitblue, in that the time of allocation of a designation has nothing to do with the actual time of construction or flight of a prototype.
I'm sure we can find many examples in the history of U.S. designations where the type didn't fly until quite a few years after it was designated.
If the type was technologically challenging or complicated to develop, then logically it would fly at a later date than types designated after it.
Think of the F-103 for instance. If the project had been carried through, it would have flown waaaay after the F-104, right? So your argument doesn't hold water, here, I'm afraid.

Offline tacitblue

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #139 on: December 21, 2014, 02:54:15 pm »
F-14 preceded the F-15 which preceded the F-16/17 which preceded the F-18 which preceded the F-20 which preceded the F-22/23.

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #140 on: December 21, 2014, 03:20:39 pm »
F-14 preceded the F-15 which preceded the F-16/17 which preceded the F-18 which preceded the F-20 which preceded the F-22/23.


Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #141 on: December 21, 2014, 03:25:33 pm »
Or, just possibly, -19 was skipped so Northrop could get F-20 for the Tigershark.
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Offline Arjen

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #142 on: December 22, 2014, 01:09:00 am »
Or, just possibly, -19 was skipped so Northrop could get F-20 for the Tigershark.
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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #143 on: December 23, 2014, 03:56:56 pm »
F-14 preceded the F-15 which preceded the F-16/17 which preceded the F-18 which preceded the F-20 which preceded the F-22/23.




Just demonstrating the lunacy of the statement above my diatribe with facts. 

Offline fightingirish

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #144 on: January 14, 2015, 06:34:09 am »
Here an drawing of the F-117 Nighthawk. Look at the aft section with those air intakes for cooling the IR-signature.
Source: Bill Yenne - The Great Warplanes of the 1990s, Gallery Books 1991, ISBN: 0831740752, page 13
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Offline covert_shores

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #145 on: January 14, 2015, 07:39:04 am »
It's literally a tracing of the first released photo I think. Nice pic though.
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Offline Steve Pace

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #146 on: March 18, 2015, 10:19:30 am »
Does anyone know who produced this line drawing? Thanks in advance. -SP
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Offline famvburg

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #147 on: March 18, 2015, 11:35:14 am »
Isn't it Monogram's F-19?

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #148 on: March 18, 2015, 11:48:04 am »
Isn't it Monogram's F-19?
I just don't know. -SP
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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #149 on: March 30, 2015, 01:48:21 pm »
The Loral/Northrop F-19 Specter may or may not have been considered for prototyping at some point...

One thing for sure though, the design must have been a little more than PR/disinformation material since it featured prominently as an example of a fighter design with desirable stealth characteristics in a once top secret CIA report that was partially "sanitized" for public release...

As for the elusive "TR-3/Black Manta" being the same as "CSIRS", you may find this excerpt from the same CIA document (dated 1985) worthy of interest. It states that CSIRS was in effect simply what was later known as the F-117. This seems to be confirmed by the second document which calls it "F-19" in quotes for lack of a better designation.

Quote
The Lockheed Company, using the experience it gained in designing its SR-71 and A-11 aircraft, is at present building 29 reconnaissance aircraft which have received the designation CSIRS. Their construction is being financed by the project for designing the future ATF fighter aircraft.

http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB443/docs/area51_43.PDF
http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB443/docs/area51_45.PDF
« Last Edit: March 30, 2015, 01:54:04 pm by Skyblazer »

Offline quellish

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #150 on: April 07, 2015, 01:04:27 am »
It's very likely that this document was just repeating what was being reported in the popular press at the time.

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #151 on: April 07, 2015, 01:22:46 am »
The Loral/Northrop F-19 Specter may or may not have been considered for prototyping at some point...

One thing for sure though, the design must have been a little more than PR/disinformation material since it featured prominently as an example of a fighter design with desirable stealth characteristics in a once top secret CIA report that was partially "sanitized" for public release...

As for the elusive "TR-3/Black Manta" being the same as "CSIRS", you may find this excerpt from the same CIA document (dated 1985) worthy of interest. It states that CSIRS was in effect simply what was later known as the F-117. This seems to be confirmed by the second document which calls it "F-19" in quotes for lack of a better designation.

Quote
The Lockheed Company, using the experience it gained in designing its SR-71 and A-11 aircraft, is at present building 29 reconnaissance aircraft which have received the designation CSIRS. Their construction is being financed by the project for designing the future ATF fighter aircraft.

http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB443/docs/area51_43.PDF
http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB443/docs/area51_45.PDF

Disagree on this.

1) There is no evidence there was such a design beyond a concept design for a Loral advert.

2) It fundamentally fails to adhere to the rules of stealth.

3) The report you link to is about Soviet Stealth. It doesn't disclose anything about US stealth beyond public speculation of the time. In lieu of a picture of the F-117 or ATB, which could not be included due to its classification, and which the report authors probably had no access to, they used a well known image instead.
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Offline xstatic3000

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #152 on: April 07, 2015, 08:17:26 am »

Paul brings up a very important point - a CIA analyst preparing a largely open-source intelligence report on Soviet Stealth would almost certainly not have access to or a "Need to Know" about the configuration of the F-117. That's not how classification rules work.




As for the elusive "TR-3/Black Manta" being the same as "CSIRS", you may find this excerpt from the same CIA document (dated 1985) worthy of interest. It states that CSIRS was in effect simply what was later known as the F-117. This seems to be confirmed by the second document which calls it "F-19" in quotes for lack of a better designation.


Here is our thread on CSIRS, which has no connection with either the F-117/Senior Trend or the nonexistent "TR-3/Black Manta":


http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,20795.0.html
« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 08:24:18 am by xstatic3000 »

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #153 on: April 07, 2015, 03:01:07 pm »
Here is our thread on CSIRS, which has no connection with either the F-117/Senior Trend or the nonexistent "TR-3/Black Manta":

I know that thread, thanks, I even wrote in it...  ;)

Since CSIRS has never been clearly explained, what exactly makes you assert so positively that "CSIRS has no connection with (...) the F-117/Senior Trend"?

The not-yet-designated F-117 was a covert reconnaissance-strike type, and the fact that 29 were said to have been produced thus far by Lockheed makes it pretty obvious to me that the author is talking about the same aircraft.

You're entitled to disagree of course, but what bugs me is that we have a document here that is official, from that era, clearly asserting that Lockheed has produced 29 aircraft for the CSIRS program, but you'd like to think there is more to CSIRS than that. Inasmuch as I'd LOVE to hear there were plenty more secret types in the works or in testing, I can see no reason not to take this particular assertion at face value.

Offline quellish

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #154 on: April 08, 2015, 03:29:03 pm »

Since CSIRS has never been clearly explained, what exactly makes you assert so positively that "CSIRS has no connection with (...) the F-117/Senior Trend"?


CSIRS never existed as a program.
The phrase "Covert, Survivable In-Weather Reconnaisance/Strike" made it into the press sometime in the early 80s (probably from the Senate proceedings Overscan posted), and was shortened by the press to "CSIRS". In the absence of real information on the rumored stealth fighter program those terms took on a life of their own.


The reality is that "Covert, Survivable In-Weather Reconnaisance/Strike" was a phrase often used in the descriptions of elements of the Covert Strike programs. Covert Strike was a set of programs with the intent of developing and demonstrating new radar concepts that would not reveal the attacking aircraft's position. This involved a remote radar illuminating (ground) targets for the attacking aircraft, which would remain passive. It also involved newer LPI radar techniques and munitions that could take advantage of the new capabilities. Some currently fielded systems have "Covert Strike" radars.


The only connection between Covert Strike and the F-117 program was a short demonstration of a Hughes radar system fitted to an F-117. IIRC that was done in 1986.

The not-yet-designated F-117 was a covert reconnaissance-strike type, and the fact that 29 were said to have been produced thus far by Lockheed makes it pretty obvious to me that the author is talking about the same aircraft.



It still seems to me that the author was speculating or repeating what was reported in the press at the time. The F-117 was never intended to perform reconnaissance.
The Aronstein, Piccirillo F-117 book has a survey of some of the press reports of that era as an appendix. Though not detailed, it should give the reader some idea of how the legend of the F-19 evolved over time.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 12:58:06 am by PaulMM (Overscan) »

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #155 on: April 09, 2015, 05:49:43 am »
Here is a UPI example of the press calling it CSIRS in 1986.


WASHINGTON -- Information shut off so quickly it seemed as if Martians had landed in California, but defense experts say the Air Force merely was hiding the crash of its supersecret F-19 Stealth fighter. Conceived as being invisible to hostile radar, the $150 million Stealth fighter presents no more than a ghostly image to the American public. Yet the fiery crash of a plane 12 miles outside of Bakersfield, Calif., on July 11 not only ignited a brush fire that consumed 145 acres, it reawakened interest in the F-19, as the Stealth fighter has been dubbed.
The Air Force -- indeed, the entire Defense Department -- denies the existence of what has become the most pursued and elusive aircraft in the U.S. arsenal, a recluse at a desert base familiar only to its pilots, maintenance crews and others elsewhere charged with the ``need to know.``But snooping by experts in and out of government who make it their business to learn about military technology and its price tag has lifted corners of the veil dropped over the F-19. The plane also is known as the Covert Survivable In-Weather Reconnaissance Strike aircraft. Emphasis has been put on ``covert`` because the CIA may find uses for the plane, one source said. The F-19 fits into C-5A Galaxy transports, which means it can be ferried to U.S. air bases anywhere.
In piecing together reports from publications and sources, which the Air Force refuses to confirm, the F-19 emerges as a major secret weapon with a possible role in a nuclear war -- either for suppressing Soviet air defenses or slipping through them to attack mobile targets with atomic weapons. After several prototypes of the plane were built by the Lockheed Corp. in the late 1970s, the F-19 went into full production in 1981 at a company plant in Palmdale, Calif., the sources said.


Offline Skyblazer

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #156 on: April 09, 2015, 12:04:46 pm »
Thanks a lot, sublight is back.

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #157 on: April 09, 2015, 12:41:21 pm »
The CSIRS=Stealth fighter thing was probably caused by a single journalist making a wrong association (probably in AWST) which was repeated ad infinitum by other sources. We now know what program  "Covert Survivable In-Weather Reconnaissance Strike" actually referred to.  I would suggest that, possibly, there is a connection between  "Covert Survivable In-Weather Reconnaissance Strike" radar technologies and Northrop's Tacit Blue program, but that is the extent of the truth here.

There is simply zero evidence of a "Loral-Northrop F-19".
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Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 12:58:10 pm by PaulMM (Overscan) »
"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #159 on: April 09, 2015, 12:57:55 pm »
And this 1976 report correctly uses "XST" as the designation for Lockheed's "Stealth Fighter".

 https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1976/1976%20-%202367.html
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"DARPA Hard"  It ain't what it use to be.

Offline quellish

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #161 on: April 09, 2015, 02:12:58 pm »
I would suggest that, possibly, there is a connection between  "Covert Survivable In-Weather Reconnaissance Strike" radar technologies and Northrop's Tacit Blue program, but that is the extent of the truth here.



There is, BSAX was part of the larger group of Covert Strike programs and participated in some of those tests.

Online sublight is back

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #162 on: April 09, 2015, 03:09:06 pm »
And this 1976 report correctly uses "XST" as the designation for Lockheed's "Stealth Fighter".

 https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1976/1976%20-%202367.html

Wow, I am quite surprised at the mention of XST, even though they got the acronym wrong. I guess they got REALLY serious about classification once the RCS results starting piling up?

Offline JimK

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #163 on: December 03, 2015, 03:34:37 pm »
The artwork you are showing was done by an artist named Atilla Hejja.  The configuration was purely his invention and has no basis in any actual program that I'm aware of.  If I remember correctly, he actually did a cutaway illustration of the airplane which had no fewer than 4 engines.  Indeed, looking at the design, except for the canted verticals and top mounted intake, it bears little homage to low observable aircraft design.

Just for completeness of this discussion, here is that cutaway from the October 11, 1982 issue of AW&ST.  It is interesting to see what an aviation artist considered relevant to a "stealth" design a third of a century ago:  Upper surface inlet and exhaust. Check! Internal weapons bay. Check!  SR-71 fuselage sections. Check!  IRST sensor. Check! Canted verticals. Check! (Although of ridiculous planform and poor location.)  But what are those pipes in the wing leading edge and why the large holes in the weapons bay aft bulkhead? And that canopy: fifty percent larger that an F-16's!  How much elevon power it would take to lift that nose about the apparent main gear location.  Ahh.  That's what that canard is for!  It does show that some thought went beyond the external shape.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2015, 02:36:53 pm by JimK »

Offline Vladimir

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #164 on: December 05, 2015, 07:21:16 am »
Hi, when i was a boy i think that F-19 real plane...according to this "Turbo" chewing gum  ;D

Offline Vladimir

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #165 on: December 05, 2015, 07:22:31 am »
some pics:
« Last Edit: December 05, 2015, 07:25:54 am by Vladimir »

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #166 on: December 05, 2015, 07:56:38 am »
Heh.  I use to have a copy of that blue stealth book by Bill Sweetman.
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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #167 on: December 05, 2015, 10:00:35 am »
I used to play that Microprose game a lot.

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #168 on: December 05, 2015, 03:14:20 pm »
I used to play that Microprose game a lot.

Me too! On my Amiga... My favourite were the carrier missions. Bombing the USSR was easy compared to finding and landing on the carrier.
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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #169 on: December 05, 2015, 03:15:25 pm »
Heh.  I use to have a copy of that blue stealth book by Bill Sweetman.

I still do.
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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #170 on: December 05, 2015, 06:01:35 pm »
Heh.  I use to have a copy of that blue stealth book by Bill Sweetman.

I still do.

I think my little brother lifted mine.  When I went off to college I left my books at my parents place.  Years later when I grabbed the rest of my stuff my book collection had "mysteriously" gotten smaller.  :'(
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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #171 on: December 05, 2015, 08:19:54 pm »
I got another copy from Coas Books in Las Cruces, NM back in March. Saw about three other copies then. This bookstore has a lot used, older titles on their shelves. Good selections!

Here's the website:
http://www.coasbooks.com/
« Last Edit: December 07, 2015, 01:58:41 pm by XP67_Moonbat »
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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #172 on: December 06, 2015, 07:25:23 am »
...
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #173 on: March 17, 2016, 04:37:11 pm »
Fun video for fans of Testors F-19.


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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #174 on: March 17, 2016, 05:59:12 pm »
You really can see how the Have Blue was seen by an unauthorised person who saw it side on, and to the rear but not planform.

Inward canter tails faceted cockpit, engine intakes above and behind... And Wowser, what a great video!

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #175 on: March 18, 2016, 12:09:34 pm »
I'm curious, with as much attention that the Testor F-19 model received during its heyday, if there was ever any engineering or popular article written on it from an engineering perspective? I can see a variety of issues (e.g. canard and spoiler control effectiveness, wing loading, obstructed inlet, stealth effectiveness, etc.) that may have already been addressed in a peer reviewed article.     

This article explains how Anderson came up with the design:
http://articles.latimes.com/1986-10-19/magazine/tm-5852_1_f-19-stealth-fighter/2

The initial inspiration for the design came from an electronic company's (Loral's?) stealth aircraft advertisement.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2016, 12:58:28 pm by Dynoman »

Offline Hobbes

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #176 on: March 18, 2016, 01:18:16 pm »
What struck me when building the Revell F-19 (and having an F-117 to compare it to) was the lack of space in the fuselage. You'd have the engines, weapons bay and landing gear all impinging on each other, while leaving no space for fuel.

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #177 on: March 18, 2016, 01:47:00 pm »
What struck me when building the Revell F-19 (and having an F-117 to compare it to) was the lack of space in the fuselage. You'd have the engines, weapons bay and landing gear all impinging on each other, while leaving no space for fuel.

F35 early variant?

But yeah, can see why it was a demonstrator, Have Blue sized.

Offline Dynoman

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #178 on: March 18, 2016, 05:02:08 pm »
Although not a definitive case, the basic configuration of the Testor F-19, flown here in an RC model, is tentatively a stable and a controllable design. The video demonstrates no apparent oscillations in high AoA maneuvers (i.e. slow flight, climb out, landing, etc.) and no gross oscillations in sideslip when turning. Maneuvers seemed to respond positively to all the controllers inputs, flying patterns that appeared precise with no over-controlling, suggesting positive static stability. Again, its very subjective, but its an interesting exercise in 'napkin-engineering.'



Note: Just found quellish posted similar video of an earlier version of the RC model.Sorry for the duplication
« Last Edit: March 18, 2016, 05:11:48 pm by Dynoman »

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #179 on: March 18, 2016, 09:33:16 pm »
What struck me when building the Revell F-19 (and having an F-117 to compare it to) was the lack of space in the fuselage. You'd have the engines, weapons bay and landing gear all impinging on each other, while leaving no space for fuel.

F35 early variant?

But yeah, can see why it was a demonstrator, Have Blue sized.

Size of the model was driven by the reports that the Stealth Fighter was transportable without disassembly in the C-5.
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Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #180 on: March 19, 2016, 12:52:58 am »
Doesn't seem like this has ever been posted here, surprisingly.

Testors F-19 Patent drawings.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2016, 01:10:50 am by PaulMM (Overscan) »
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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #181 on: March 19, 2016, 06:32:42 pm »
That's a beauty, even if she is just a model.

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #182 on: March 19, 2016, 06:48:33 pm »
Doesn't seem like this has ever been posted here, surprisingly.

Testors F-19 Patent drawings.
Do you have the link to that patent - I googled it and came up with nothing. Thanks -SP
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"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
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Offline Steve Pace

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #184 on: March 19, 2016, 07:02:41 pm »
Thanks so much, Paul. Now if we could just get the same re the LORAL F-19 concept. -SP
When you know you're right, go ahead.

Offline LEG

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #185 on: November 26, 2016, 11:59:25 pm »
Cutaway,

Very Nice buildup of the 72nd snaptite.  It's too bad that Monogram had to butcher the beautiful LORAL concept artwork with the chintzy F/A-18 MLG and misproportioned belly (effectively turning the jet from a low wing monoplane to a midwing design, like turning an F-20 into an F-16) but from the top, the jet is still very impressive, as your beautiful replica shows.

The real issue here is that the LORAL design is for a very high altitude wave rider with elements of XB-70 theory in it whereas the nominal 'F-19' was part of a fictional (?) COSIRS or Covert Survivable In-Weather Reconnaissance Strike system capability which simply never would have looked like the jet shown.

You don't build a huge wing area to fly 'In Weather' but /over it/ (turbulence etc.) and once you develop that concept and marry it to the ideals of stealth for which a blended wing:body theory, similar to the B-2, is applied, the nature of the design becomes one of a flat belly with a sculpted upper deck where the real depth of the structural volume (sufficient for OUTBOARD positioning of tall landing gear for instance) is inherent to a delta wing with F-4 rather than F/A-18 influence MLG.

The Monogram kits (they also did one in 48th with the full gear) diverge from this by attempting to navalize the aircraft with folding wings and other nonsense at a time when the SOA in VLO design was the F-117 with 'vinyl tile' appliques and lots of 'butter' edge seal putty that would simply never stand up to such articulation.

As such, rather than use what we now know to be a standard of design with the perfect skin envelope built first and the structural body integrated into it as a separately trimmed design, Monogram used a component approach with discrete fuselage and wing elements that could not and did not have the blended depth needed to achieve true VLO within a believable packaging constraint for such a broad-but-shallow design.

Part of this may well have been LORALs fault in putting what is essentially an F-16 scaled cockpit on what would have been something closer in size to an SR-71 but it is equally important to note that the LORAL concept artwork was only ever released once, as a (high) in-flight shot and thus you never really see the belly or landing gear.

As Kelly Johnson once said of the 'RS-71' performance regime:  "We don't really give the Russians enough to think about in the high fast envelope."  The analogy being made of an AGM-69 SRAM having 10-15nm of range in the TF mode, 20-30nm from a B-1B at 30,000ft and 70+nm in the B-52 at 50,000ft when compared to a strike configured blackbird releasing one at Mach 3 and 80,000ft to fly perhaps 200nm downrange.

Of course, the bar always raises and today the 'F-19' would be hypersonic with a wedge as much as traditional wing design.  It would probably use a weapons tunnel like the A-5A Vigilante with positive release EML shunt of multiple trained or stacked weapons behind a habitation module and the performance numbers would reflect the capacities of the 40N6 missile of the S-400/500 with defensive coverage in excess of 600km equating to a need to adopt minimum 500nm standoffs from a Mach 10 and 200,000ft, hypercruising, airframe.  Skipping the weapons across-track like stones over a millpond before tipover reacceleration under blip motor (and possible MARVing) to slam into high value infrastructure and industrial targets in economic warfare.

Such a weapons system might very well have the planform of the 'F-19' but it would likely have the deep spine of something like a Bird of Prey or even an M2 lifting body

http://new--tomorrows.tumblr.com/post/25109308262/scanzen-northrop-loral-f-19a-specter-stealth

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/ff/b0/47/ffb0470b41267b6b6aa8d694ec70db4f.jpg

http://l7.alamy.com/zooms/9b552809394c49a2aea908a2f6df3bc5/m2-f3-lifting-body-research-aircraft-begins-its-rocket-powered-flight-c0krbf.jpg

Ironically, it might even be navalized.  If you want to retain cheap, fast, manned strike without the cost and fuel issues of feeding (and upgrading) an entire airwing constellation of support missions, into an A2AD/ICD biased threat environment, you almost have to go high-fast to allow for tangential drive-by attacks and 'here to there' shuttle bombing from say the East China Sea to the South China Sea before rinse-and-repeat return missions, more than 1,000nm offshore from the threat BASM/ROTHR coverage.

It is not Midway anymore and if you are going to beat 1,500km DF-21 or 2,500km DF-26 with BASM capabilities, you have to make the jet behave like the missile does in terms of speed of transit, depth of reach as SOI and multiplicity of strikes per day on valuable targets.  The fact that Megawatt class SSLs are going to come to dominate close-in defenses must also be considered.

Offline hesham

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #186 on: July 28, 2017, 11:04:01 am »
From JAWA 1985.

Offline Dynoman

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #187 on: October 19, 2017, 06:46:58 pm »
A couple more videos of the F-19 in action via VSKYLABS X-Plane. The details of the X-Plane model is based on the Testor/Italeri design.



« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 07:14:50 pm by Dynoman »

Offline Dynoman

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #188 on: October 19, 2017, 07:25:31 pm »
Scale of Testor's F-19 compared to Lockheed F-117A, and Have Blue compared to F-117A. The smaller F-19 model looks more like a demonstrator in size than an operational concept with two F404s and two AGMs buried inside its airframe with fuel, cockpit and equipment. The F-19 is similar in dimensions to an F-16 Fighting Falcon.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2017, 07:54:26 am by Dynoman »

Offline flateric

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Re: F-19: artists impressions of the Stealth Fighter
« Reply #189 on: October 29, 2017, 03:19:12 pm »
...
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works