Kramer X-4 Air-To-Air Missile

HoHun said:
Hi T. A.,



Stüwe contradicts you on p. 703, stating that the transmitter voltage was 200 V DC.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
Click to expand...
The 200 VDC system was used with standard Keil-Strassburg and Kogge-Brigg. They upped it to 600 VDC for the X-4 system because of the line loss (wire resistance).
 
Hi T. A.,

T. A. Gardner said:
The 200 VDC system was used with standard Keil-Strassburg and Kogge-Brigg. They upped it to 600 VDC for the X-4 system because of the line loss (wire resistance).
Click to expand...

You seem to have "forgotten" to mention the source for your claim. So, what is it this time?

(Stüwe, p. 703, is explicitely talking about the X-4 system.)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
 
HoHun said:
Hi T. A.,



You seem to have "forgotten" to mention the source for your claim. So, what is it this time?

(Stüwe, p. 703, is explicitely talking about the X-4 system.)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
Click to expand...
The X-4, a development of the Fritz X, was line controlled with the “Dusseldorf* (FuG 510) system as transmitter and a system similar to the “Detmold" type as receiver. The “Dusseldorf" transmitter was essentially the same as the "Duren," but its working voltage was only 200 V, as compared with the 600 V of the “Duren."

archive.org

AGARD AG 20:HISTORY OF GERMAN GUIDED MISSILES DEVELOPMENT : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

History of german guided missile development report by AGARDAGARD-AG-20AGARD-AG-21Max-A homing deviceTelecontrol by Ferdinand Muller (1957)
archive.org

Because the wire was so long, and so thin, and that steel was being used, made the resistance so high that they had to up the voltage to get a useful signal to the missile.
 
Hi T. A.,

You don't seem to be very consistent:

T. A. Gardner said:
With Dusseldorf / Detmold the combo on the X-4, yes. [...]

It's 200 VDC (there is a 600 VDC system that's similar that was proposed for Hs 293 and the Fritz X. Higher voltage due to longer wire runout. That's shown in the video too).
Click to expand...

T. A. Gardner said:
Additionally, the signals from the guiding aircraft are 600 VDC to cover line loss (resistance in the wire)
Click to expand...

T. A. Gardner said:
The X-4, a development of the Fritz X, was line controlled with the “Dusseldorf* (FuG 510) system as transmitter and a system similar to the “Detmold" type as receiver. The “Dusseldorf" transmitter was essentially the same as the "Duren," but its working voltage was only 200 V, as compared with the 600 V of the “Duren."
Click to expand...

You're 2:1 in favour of 200 V DC, which would put you in agreement with Stüwe.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
 
HoHun said:
Hi T. A.,

You don't seem to be very consistent:







You're 2:1 in favour of 200 V DC, which would put you in agreement with Stüwe.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
Click to expand...
X-4 used Duren Detmold as the control system. It was a 600 VDC system upped from the previous 200 VDC of other similar systems.

Pocock German Guided Missiles says the same thing on pg 74
 
Hi T. A.,

T. A. Gardner said:
X-4 used Duren Detmold as the control system. It was a 600 VDC system upped from the previous 200 VDC of other similar systems.
Click to expand...

Here is the very source you quoted:

The X-4, a development of the Fritz X, was line controlled with the “Dusseldorf" (FuG 510) system as transmitter and a system similar to the “Detmold" type as receiver. The “Dusseldorf" transmitter was essentially the same as the "Duren", but its working voltage was only 200 V, as compared with the 600 V of the “Duren".
Click to expand...

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
 
Hi T. A.,

T. A. Gardner said:
X-4 used Duren Detmold as the control system. It was a 600 VDC system upped from the previous 200 VDC of other similar systems.

Pocock German Guided Missiles says the same thing on pg 74
Click to expand...

Pocock on p.74 talks about "equipment reserved for the SD 1400 X only". If you read p. 75, he writes, "As the SD 1400 X went out of service, from the spring of 1944, production of the 'Düren-Detmold' also stopped, but existing apparatus was modified into 'Düsseldorf-Detmold' sets for the Ruhrstahl X-4 air-to-air missile. This system was almost identical with the 'Düren-Detmold', but working with a lower voltage."

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
 
Maybe a quick calculation clears things up?!

Resistance of one wire:
length 5500m
diameter 0,2mm
surface = (0,2²*PI)/4 = 0,031416 mm²
specific resistance [rho] for steelwire = 0,13 in (ohm*mm2)/m

R = (5500m * 0,13)/0,031416 = 22759.1 ohm


that gives for 200V :
200V/(2*22760 ohm)=0.00439 Ampere
or 4.4 mA
in the control circut

seems a little low in my eyes ( i have only superficial knowledge ) but still possible.
the decoder relais must be quite small but they only have to switch the 9V internal circut propably with low amp allowing them to be small.


Anyway our written sources dont seem to contradict each other anymore so the discussion about the 200V DC system seems to be settled.

nice:cool:
 
i just reread Stüwes article about the x4, he also mentions 5mA in the control circut.

he later gives the encoder drum frequency with 20 Hz instaed of 5 Hz that i used to describe in my long post some days ago.
 
Hi Basil,

Basil said:
A well made analytic description of the whole system:
View: https://youtube.com/watch?v=zXan1fo6qi0&si=YLKPklG5AhBD3OgC
Click to expand...

This was actually linked near the begining of this thread already :)


One inaccuracy I noticed is that it depicts a drum encoder despite stating that the joystick used is a "Knirps", which as far as I've been able to tell from the various sources covered in this thread is actually using potentiometers to evaluate the position, with the pulse width modulation obviously being done by a different technology.

"Knirps" means "midget", implying miniaturization, which was achieved by eliminating the moving parts of the older rotating-drum encoder joysticks that can be seen here:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALtdaBgo8JE&t=462s


Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
 
HoHun said:
Hi Basil,



This was actually linked near the begining of this thread already :)


One inaccuracy I noticed is that it depicts a drum encoder despite stating that the joystick used is a "Knirps", which as far as I've been able to tell from the various sources covered in this thread is actually using potentiometers to evaluate the position, with the pulse width modulation obviously being done by a different technology.

"Knirps" means "midget", implying miniaturization, which was achieved by eliminating the moving parts of the older rotating-drum encoder joysticks that can be seen here:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALtdaBgo8JE&t=462s


Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
Click to expand...
as far as i know knirps had potentiometers that regulated the position of the decoder drums... so that you can have a small joystick in the cockpit and wire the commands to the larger decoder drum box in a more convinient place on the aircraft.

i have to read stüwes take again, remake of this video is scheduled anyway so im going to watch out for these differences and change to the correct Steuergerät name (with the drums).
 

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