Ideal USAF air superiority fighter for the Vietnam War.

njiiaf

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
6 December 2021
Messages
113
Reaction score
287
As we all know, the USAF went into Vietnam without a dedicated air superiority fighter and suffered for it, particularly in the early years with unreliable sparrows/sidewinders, no cannons on the Phantoms, and inadequate BFM training. Que the arrival of the F-4E, along with better missiles and pilot training, and you start to see some acceptable results.

But lets just assume for a second that the USAF had to come to their senses around the mid-to-late 50's and designed a proper air superiority fighter to replace Sabre.

What would this aircraft ideally have looked like?

Would it be some variation of an existing design like the Super Sabre? Or was that aircraft simply unsuitable?

Perhaps an F-104 with larger wings? Or a clean-sheet design?

And how would the air war over Vietnam have changed?
 

Attachments

  • X-27-Lancer.jpg
    X-27-Lancer.jpg
    167.1 KB · Views: 113
  • f100-on-tarmac.jpg
    f100-on-tarmac.jpg
    38.2 KB · Views: 104
  • download.jpg
    download.jpg
    8.6 KB · Views: 101
Last edited:
I think the F8U Crusader was pretty close, but its success was probably due more to pilot training than to configuration. One of the problems with the aircraft was the unreliability of its guns. Perhaps swap in DEFAs or Adens?

Of other existing aircraft, the F11F (with either the J65 or J79) would also be good. While it wasn't particularly supersonic, it was reputed to have quite sweet handling, which means that the pilots would be able to get all the performance out of it.
 
How about Air Force goes through with their large ~700 airframe purchase of F-104s as originally planned, and trains them primarily in dogfighting rather than lobbing nuclear bombs? Project Feather Duster shows the F-104, with proper training, could fight MiGs and win.


 
If we're talking ideal, with hindsight? You want a decent radar, for detection and ranging, but an armament focused on Sidewinders over Sparrows, and more than two. You want the Phantom's power, but better maneuverability. A reliable gun as a backup weapon.

The Super Tiger probably is the closest you're going to get of planes the US actually drew up - good handling, as noted; space for a radar; power to spare when fitted with the J79; and four pylons for Sidewinders. Range for escorting Thunderchiefs is the only potential problem, and between the J79's lower fuel consumption than the J65 and bobtdwarf's proposed new wing here that's probably a solvable problem - the Air Force doesn't need folding wings, after all.
 
How about Air Force goes through with their large ~700 airframe purchase of F-104s as originally planned, and trains them primarily in dogfighting rather than lobbing nuclear bombs? Project Feather Duster shows the F-104, with proper training, could fight MiGs and win.


Based on the article, a properly flown F-104 should be more than a match for F-86/MiG-15/MiG-17 type aircraft, i.e., early 50s swept-wing fighters.

But that 600kt minimum is going to make them really struggle against MiG-21s and anything later. The 1971 war between India and Pakistan made that quite clear. IIRC the exchange rate was some thing like 4:0 in favor of the MiG-21.
 
But that 600kt minimum is going to make them really struggle against MiG-21s and anything later. The 1971 war between India and Pakistan made that quite clear. IIRC the exchange rate was some thing like 4:0 in favor of the MiG-21.
I'm not sure how "fair" it is to compare 13 year old F-104As with limited availability due to the post 1965 embargo versus freshly built MiG-21s with support from the Soviets, but I do agree the F-104 did not have a stellar record! :confused:

Late in the F-104As life, some AF birds were fitted with the J79-GE-19 engine which greatly increased thrust and performance in all areas. Perhaps using the light F-104A/B airframe with -19 engine is a good place to start? Update the radar, ECM, and load some AIM-9E's and you'd have a plane to stay abreast with the MiG-21PFM series.
-19.png

 
But that 600kt minimum is going to make them really struggle against MiG-21s and anything later. The 1971 war between India and Pakistan made that quite clear. IIRC the exchange rate was some thing like 4:0 in favor of the MiG-21.
I'm not sure how "fair" it is to compare 13 year old F-104As with limited availability due to the post 1965 embargo versus freshly built MiG-21s with support from the Soviets, but I do agree the F-104 did not have a stellar record! :confused:

Late in the F-104As life, some AF birds were fitted with the J79-GE-19 engine which greatly increased thrust and performance in all areas. Perhaps using the light F-104A/B airframe with -19 engine is a good place to start? Update the radar, ECM, and load some AIM-9E's and you'd have a plane to stay abreast with the MiG-21PFM series.
View attachment 683111

I didn’t realize how old Pakistan’s Starfighters were. In that case, a new engine could give it a decent boost, although it wouldn’t hurt to use some new wings in order to offset the weight of the new radar/ecm and help with maneuverability.

Besides this and our fantasy Super Tiger, I wonder how viable the N-102 Fang would be. Seems like a decent, if ambitious, design to rival the -21.
 
I think the F8U Crusader was pretty close, but its success was probably due more to pilot training than to configuration. One of the problems with the aircraft was the unreliability of its guns. Perhaps swap in DEFAs or Adens?

Of other existing aircraft, the F11F (with either the J65 or J79) would also be good. While it wasn't particularly supersonic, it was reputed to have quite sweet handling, which means that the pilots would be able to get all the performance out of it.
1. The F-8's problem was NOT the guns... it was that the ammo feeds were very susceptible to jamming during high-G maneuvers (like when dogfighting) - something that won't be fixed by just a change in gun models.

Fix the feed chutes (maybe by finding a way to replace the 4 Mk 12 20mm cannon with a M61 Vulcan) and it will be a different story.


Armament System.jpg F8U-1 Cross section gun and ammo crop.jpg



2. The Super Tiger exceeded Mach 2 with the J79 (and other changes, which improved its drag issues, etc).
 
Last edited:
The US wanted improved F-5s instead of A-7s in 1965, for close support and a secondary air superiority function, but were forced into adopting the A-7 instead.

USAF A-7s arrived in Vietnam in 1972, USAF improved F-5s might have been earlier.
 
They needed a better air-superiority aircraft to be in squadron strength on airfields in South Vietnam at the start of 1966... improved F-5s ordered in 1965 likely would have been just entering squadron service in the US in 1968 or so, and deploying to SV one year later.
 
Crusader
F-104C
F-106 with gun and better missiles than Falcons.

Among the three, F-104C is not Navy and readily available with little mods.

From 1968 F-104S rolling out of Fiat production line have Sparrow capability...
 
The Super Tiger probably is the closest you're going to get of planes the US actually drew up - good handling, as noted; space for a radar; power to spare when fitted with the J79; and four pylons for Sidewinders. Range for escorting Thunderchiefs is the only potential problem

Agree. Also the J79 powered F-8 variant (V-1000) would have been great… but without the 349 gallon reduction in internal fuel capacity.



145392-79a336ae6d5dc667d3c92bc8b59519f0.jpg


197172-d5d41ff538ff913b7d37a6b03ca1e146.jpg
 
Last edited:
The issue in Vietnam had much more to do with Pilot training, poor cockpit design, and poor situational awareness then airframe. Just about any option would have been fine if used right.
I’m going to have to disagree here. While the lack of those attributes did have a significant impact, there was an equally great impact from the lack of a dedicated, agile air superiority fighter equipped with the proper weaponry.

There’s a reason why the next generation of aircraft placed such a significant emphasis on maneuverability despite having more advanced radars, better cockpit visibility, and better weaponry. Even for an aircraft primarily designed for fleet defense like the Tomcat.

Reading USAF/USN pilot anecdotes on air battles with MiGs illustrates the severe handicap they had with F-4B/Cs armed only with early model AAMs. In some cases pilots were ripple firing nearly all of their missiles just to achieve one kill. Or were unable to keep up with and engage hard maneuvering targets/targets that were too close for missiles but in perfect range for guns.
 
I think the F8U Crusader was pretty close, but its success was probably due more to pilot training than to configuration. One of the problems with the aircraft was the unreliability of its guns. Perhaps swap in DEFAs or Adens?

Of other existing aircraft, the F11F (with either the J65 or J79) would also be good. While it wasn't particularly supersonic, it was reputed to have quite sweet handling, which means that the pilots would be able to get all the performance out of it.
1. The F-8's problem was NOT the guns... it was that the ammo feeds were very susceptible to jamming during high-G maneuvers (like when dogfighting) - something that won't be fixed by just a change in gun models.

Fix the feed chutes (maybe by finding a way to replace the 4 Mk 12 20mm cannon with a M61 Vulcan) and it will be a different story.


View attachment 683112View attachment 683113



2. The Super Tiger exceeded Mach 2 with the J79 (and other changes, which improved its drag issues, etc).
The feed mechanism is necessary for the gun to work. While it may not be part of the gun, proper, the gun is rather useless if it's not working.
 
The reality is that earlier improvements to the F-4 along the lines of what came later for the F-4S and the F-4E and earlier improvements to training would both be the best and most easily implemented changes to arrive at this scenario.

The F-8s dogfighting prowess is somewhat exaggerated and the F-4 was considered the generally better platform for further development by the US Navy (and definitely by the US airforce) in this direction.

And some of the suggestions (F-5 variant) simply wouldn’t have the range for the missions in North Vietnam.
 
But that 600kt minimum is going to make them really struggle against MiG-21s and anything later. The 1971 war between India and Pakistan made that quite clear. IIRC the exchange rate was some thing like 4:0 in favor of the MiG-21.
I'm not sure how "fair" it is to compare 13 year old F-104As with limited availability due to the post 1965 embargo versus freshly built MiG-21s with support from the Soviets, but I do agree the F-104 did not have a stellar record! :confused:

Late in the F-104As life, some AF birds were fitted with the J79-GE-19 engine which greatly increased thrust and performance in all areas. Perhaps using the light F-104A/B airframe with -19 engine is a good place to start? Update the radar, ECM, and load some AIM-9E's and you'd have a plane to stay abreast with the MiG-21PFM series.
View attachment 683111


http://www.916-starfighter.de/Ruminations on the F-104.htm

"I know the bird will cruise at 73,000 at Mach 2.0; Paul Da San Martineo and I RTB'd from Tyndall to Homestead that way. It certainly impressed Miami Center; I remember the controller's answer when we called "Level Flight Level 730". "Roger, and you weren't lying about your true airspeed either!" (We'd filed a TAS of 1150 kts)"


"Ho-kay. Sit down, open a cool one, lean back and here it comes. And, gentlemen, this is the straight skinny. No B-S. This is about flying the 1956 F104A Starfighter with the new J79-19 engine, the modified F4E/S engine which replaced our old tired J79-3bs in 1967. . ."
 
Last edited:
Frankly based on how the usaf actually fought the war the the f8U-3 would have been better the the f-4. But thats really missing the forest for the trees, the usaf gust didn't fight well in vetnam because of bad decision making. Honestly the mig-21 is a interceptor its not actually very good a dog fighter (it can only out turn the f-4 on the first turn and after that it loses a lot of energy do to the delta) and if you look at the data it backs that up, the vast majority of mig kills were ambushes, hiting hevaly leaden f-4 and f-105 and then running, when they tried actually dogfighting (aka trying actually contest usaf air superiority) they lost bad every time. Honestly the air war should really be called air garila war, because that more adicitly describes what happened over north vetnam.


Honestly the better answer wasn't really a different plane it was a different way to fight the actual war (isn't that gust the moral of the vitamin war in a nutshell) things like awaks coverage over north vetnam so enemy fighters couldn't launch sneak attacks, better iffs so that the roe could be loosened allowing the sparrow to work like it was made to, things like that (and when they were introduced during the last three years of the war the ratio jumped up to something higher then in korea)

But if all you want to do is change the plane then the F8U-3 and the f11-1f are the planes that better fit how the war was actually fought by the us.
 
But that 600kt minimum is going to make them really struggle against MiG-21s and anything later. The 1971 war between India and Pakistan made that quite clear. IIRC the exchange rate was some thing like 4:0 in favor of the MiG-21.
I'm not sure how "fair" it is to compare 13 year old F-104As with limited availability due to the post 1965 embargo versus freshly built MiG-21s with support from the Soviets, but I do agree the F-104 did not have a stellar record! :confused:

Late in the F-104As life, some AF birds were fitted with the J79-GE-19 engine which greatly increased thrust and performance in all areas. Perhaps using the light F-104A/B airframe with -19 engine is a good place to start? Update the radar, ECM, and load some AIM-9E's and you'd have a plane to stay abreast with the MiG-21PFM series.
View attachment 683111

I didn’t realize how old Pakistan’s Starfighters were. In that case, a new engine could give it a decent boost, although it wouldn’t hurt to use some new wings in order to offset the weight of the new radar/ecm and help with maneuverability.

Besides this and our fantasy Super Tiger, I wonder how viable the N-102 Fang would be. Seems like a decent, if ambitious, design to rival the -21.
Upon further research my proposed wing isn't even necessary.. I still like it for obviously flawed and biased reasons.. But the 98-L version of the Tiger/SuperTiger or the F-12 with 350 sqft. wing that developed out of it would be totally fine for the job! The Air Force evaluated the supeTiger and gave it excellent reviews inclusive of the test team recommending it for purchase.

You can get close to the 98-L by swapping the wing tips with slightly larger ones to bring the span to 34 feet from 31 and change.
 

Attachments

  • 98L Data.jpg
    98L Data.jpg
    622.4 KB · Views: 94
  • 98L Side View.jpg
    98L Side View.jpg
    659.1 KB · Views: 76
  • 98L Top View.jpg
    98L Top View.jpg
    711.2 KB · Views: 96
I like the notion of the N-102 Fang, as I also like the notion of a V-1000 J79-powered derivative being developed.

H_K, your comment
but without the 349 gallon reduction in internal fuel capacity.
I think is plausible, as I'm thinking the deletion of the 349 gallon internal fuel capacity might have been to mitigate the offensive capability of the V-1000 in the IFA requirements or because of the J79's better fuel fraction than the J57....

The reality of the poor and overly optimistic envisaged performance capabilities of AAM needs to be recognised by USAF & USN much earlier.

I agree with BlackBat242's analogy
The F-8's problem was NOT the guns... it was that the ammo feeds were very susceptible to jamming during high-G maneuvers (like when dogfighting) - something that won't be fixed by just a change in gun models.
Even though Im a supporter of two 30mm cannons in place of the Mk 12 20mm cannons.....

I guess my only issue with the F-8/V-1000 is that of its radar growth capability, what with it's inherent radome limitation....

Saying all this, my appreciation for the Grumman Super Tiger is growing, as more information and reviews of it's evaluation/assessment come to my attention....

Regards
Pioneer
 
Last edited:
A lot of people brought up the lack of SA and the NVAF hit-and-run tactics - all very good points. Personally, I had forgotten how much they used these; I was under the impression there were more head-to-head engagements. Seems like Super Tigers and advanced Crusaders would have been just as vulnerable as the Phantoms were in those situations.

But I’m still not convinced that the former aircraft wouldn’t have done substantially better pre-Bolo when the majority of engagements were head-to-head. Like I said earlier, there’s a very good for reason for maneuverability being such a prominent part of 4th gens. Since we are looking for the ideal fighter here, I don’t think the Phantom fully fits the bill. Even if we were to start the war with -E models.

Finally, a note about training. The adoption of any dedicated air superiority fighter presumes a resumption of proper air-to-air training. I can hardly see any reason for the USAF to do this while still maintaining its belief that fighter v. fighter combat was no longer relevant.
 
If we're talking ideal, with hindsight? You want a decent radar, for detection and ranging, but an armament focused on Sidewinders over Sparrows, and more than two. You want the Phantom's power, but better maneuverability. A reliable gun as a backup weapon.

The Super Tiger probably is the closest you're going to get of planes the US actually drew up - good handling, as noted; space for a radar; power to spare when fitted with the J79; and four pylons for Sidewinders. Range for escorting Thunderchiefs is the only potential problem, and between the J79's lower fuel consumption than the J65 and bobtdwarf's proposed new wing here that's probably a solvable problem - the Air Force doesn't need folding wings, after all.
very kind of you to remember that.

Thing I find very intriguing here is that Grumman was testing, or at least illustrating a double sidewinder mount on the centerline belly station. No idea if they would give a wing mounting of that adaptor a whirl but even if they didn't.. that leaves you a likely 6 AIM9s(four on the center two on the wings), a couple of bags and either 2 more sidewinders or a couple of sparrows.. including radar and the price difference of the new engine I don't see this costing more than $1.3 mil. But don't quote me on it as I am taking a substantial leap in the dark on the cost of an APQ-50
 
Not to rain on the parade, but F-104Cs were fine in a technical sense. You could probably give the USAF F-15As and they would still get shot down by MiG-19s tbh. They were just kinda bad at flying.

At the end of the day, the USAF already had the best planes for the job at the time, so there was nothing to improve. The USN had technically inferior aircraft and air battle management on paper (no cannons on F-4A/B, F8 had a puny radar, no Warning Stars just weedy lil' Tracers/Hawkeyes and the occasional radar picket ship (lol), etc.) to the USAF and yet had clapped cheeks in air combat because it trained its pilots to fight WW3 like it fought WW2: killing aircraft. The USAF just got sucked into training for WW2 again, i.e. flattening cities, but with nuclear bombs instead of incendiaries. It's natural that they would be weak in air combat if they only trained to deliver nuclear weapons, carpet bomb motor rifle battalions, and defend against tactical and strategic atomic bomber raids.

Anyway as for planes: the Northrop N-102 is my favorite since it's a cute triangle and has a chin intake. It looks very modern and would probably be a pretty decent gunfighter like the F-8. Missile fighters would just be F-104C guided by Warning Star ACI and later F-4C and -E.

Just look at him:

1661604929089.png

He's adorable and could break stuff with a pair of M39s and maybe side rail mounted Falcons (like F-8) any day of the week.
 
But lets just assume for a second that the USAF had to come to their senses around the mid-to-late 50's and designed a proper air superiority fighter to replace Sabre.

Just echoing some points that have already been made but that is literally the F-104: "After a series of interviews with Korean War fighter pilots in 1951, Kelly Johnson, then lead designer at Lockheed, opted to reverse the trend of ever-larger and more complex fighters and produce a simple, lightweight aircraft with maximum altitude and climb performance." [wikipedia]

Another option would have been one of the alternatives proposed for the F-104 program, the F-107 (which of course originally lost out to the F-105). This would be more in line with the USAF "big, long range fighter-bomber" philosophy, even if it wasn't as pure an air superiority approach as the F-104, but there was the possibility that the USAF could have opted for an F-105/F-107 pairing instead of the F-105/F-104 pairing.
 
The N-102 Fang looked promising, but had one silly design mistake: the nosewheel was ill placed. It would have dumped plenty of FOD into that intake.

I still think F-104C & F-104S could have done wonders...
 
The N-102 Fang looked promising, but had one silly design mistake: the nosewheel was ill placed. It would have dumped plenty of FOD into that intake.

I still think F-104C & F-104S could have done wonders...

Louvres on the side of the intake would fix that I'd think, as MiG-29 has a similar problem and uses louvres on top of the aircraft. Airfield Armored Street Sweeper when.

But yes F-104C was more than adequate for the air superiority against MiG-21/19/17 that the VPAF had, both in turning and in climb rates. The USAF's only problem was the thing between the instrument panel and ejection seat was getting in the way. A gunfighter able to get the drop on VPAF fighters through a rear upper quad dive with radar controlled intercept is more important given the tight ROEs of Vietnam and its occasional cloudiness.

One that can turn, which F-104 can only sorta do, really helps mediocre pilots too since they'd more often find themselves in disadvantageous situations requiring being able to pull a nose onto the target and press the trigger rather than dominating the fight from better initial positions.

Without actually good missiles (AIM-7M or better, or AIM-120) though the F-104S would be only of marginal capability in combat really. All the various 1960's radar guided systems were still extremely primitive and prone to failure in ways that 1980's ones just weren't, which mostly explains the radar guided kill discrepancies of Vietnam versus Desert Storm and Kosovo. This is especially true for a single seat fighter. I'd imagine the bulk of air combat victories with the Phantoms were due to the fact that the workload of operating a clunky pre-digital AWG and actually flying the thing were split between two people. The efficacy would be reduced if both of these jobs are done by one guy on a maneuvering fighter.

Starfighters would need to be flown like Phantom in that they'd thrust for vertical rather than horizontal maneuvering during the fight, but fought like Crusader in that they'd be lining up cannon shots by stalling out the opponent or diving from high angles. Starfighter has a low frontal profile and is hard to spot in general in air combat, and with AIM-9C would have near identical performance to the R-13 in frontal aspect target engagement, and overall both MiG-21F-13 and F-104C were pretty similar, so it would come down to who gets the drop on whom more or less.

Since Feather Duster only focused on the MiG-15/17 subsonic threat, it's hard to say how you'd counter MiG-21s specifically, but I suspect it would be similar to Bolo overall (MiGs roll up for a strike package assault and the main/high altitude escort force head-ons the -17 frontal wave with AIM-9Cs while the MiG-21s are dropped on by a rear guard force) just with more airborne tankers and EFTs overall.

In practice the Phantom was just a IP Starfighter in terms of general use and operational methods, and could better employ the Sparrow in close combat than any preceding fighter in Air Force inventory, at longer ranges, for longer on-station periods. Starfighter just lacked the legs of Phantom and the F-104S lacked the WSO, so it wouldn't matter much in a dogfight. So you'd see more AIM-9Cs being purchased for frontal engagements, and the USA might shift to using AIM-9Cs for all aspect use rather than canning them when the Crusaders were retired, until the Lima drops a decade later and negates the need for R-13-style radar guided weapons for frontal aspect use.

Loss rates would still be high simply because the USAF was poorly trained and poorly organized for limited war/conventional air superiority sweeps, and the Soviet-American technological gap was much closer in the '60's than it was in the '90's or today, so the men still mattered a lot. The Vietnamese were well trained, well led, and well advised, and had a lot of grit. There's very little to be done to permanently put out of action a motivated, well trained air combat force when your technological and materiel advantages are so slim, at least from the air.

Vietnam was just the closest America ever got to fighting on the Eastern Front or during the London Blitz, tbh. Neither side could knock the other out with their allocated forces so it became a battle of attrition, which America wasn't willing to sustain, and the Soviets were willing to supply the Vietnamese with aviation for days. Short of physically occupying or destroying airfields with armored divisions, which America explicitly rejected, and which was the Soviet solution to Nazi airpower, or resorting to nuclear combat, which was the Combined Bomber Offensive solution, there's not much to be done as far as the USAF was concerned.

It just didn't have that experience that the USN did in air combat to give it the necessary knowledge framework to break free from its past. Vietnam was the learning experience that the US Navy got in 1942 staring down the gunsights at what may have been the most elite and well trained tactical air force the world had ever seen. Well, until it got chewed up in the Solomons campaign and never really recovered from its death by a thousand cuts.

You'd ultimately need to fundamentally alter the US Army Air Forces' ETO combat experience, or somehow ensure that it engages in main combat actions against a much stronger Japanese-style opponent, or something like that, as that is ultimately the root of the USAF's failings in Vietnam and planes can't change that.

This is ultimately just the outcome of the differences between land-based, continental/strategic aviation and the more tactically focused, nautical aviation that focuses on gaining ground for the strategic aviation to base itself off. Making the USN bigger, having shore-based tactical fighter squadrons for the Pacific, and being entirely in charge of the air ops of the Vietnam War might help unironically in cutting loss rates, but that would make the USAF really mad and all the branches were trying to legislate their opposites out of existence after Operation Crossroads by arguing that nuclear weapons were the only real need in combat.

The Korean War just put a three year pause in that debate which was ongoing well into the combat phases of Vietnam and that parochialism is a big reason why the US could never form a coherent strategy.

F-104C/-S and F-4C/-E would likely produce near identical loss rates in action, but the methods of killing enemy aircraft for the F-104s would be far greater proportion of AIM-9s and 20mm and much of fewer AIM-7s due to restrictions of ROE and lack of a WSO. Without the backseater and gun, the F-104S would also be worse in practice than -C I'd think, unless you gave it a radar fit comparable in automation control technology to the the APG-70, MFDs similar to the -C or Alfa Hornets, and AIM-7Ms with the autopilot and low altitude fuses.

It's probably important to keep in mind that the Soviets in the '60's and '50's were still extremely responsive and dynamic in their industrial throughput, and were more than able to keep pace with US developments until the 1970's. Analogizing the MiG-21F-13 quite literally as "a F-104S with a toy gunpod" wouldn't be incorrect in general performance characteristics, and the VPAF more or less was built as a mincing machine for denying American airpower from the start.

Due to the larger macroeconomic factors at work in the Soviet-American economic competition during the '50's and '60's, the fate of most US pilots in Vietnam was decided by the fact that automation and general technical characteristics were still too weak of influences versus man-pilot characteristics. There's very little to change this without altering these fundamental factors, like giving 1980's-era electronics to the USA (or Soviets) instead, or something equally wacky. Even then, the strict ROE and limited war conditions would still mean someone's F-15C is getting creamed by a MiG-19 from negligence.

Naturally none of this would have altered the vast majority of US losses in the war either, most of which were due to AAA fire, with fewer than 4% of US fixed-wing losses due to PVAF fighter action, too. The USA only records around 95 aircraft being lost to enemy air action, while the Vietnamese claim something like 200, so it's between 4-8% of losses at the most extreme ends.

American air losses are wildly overstated (due to emphasized marketing from "POW" lobbying concerns from the 1980's mostly) and something like JDAM (perhaps a LORAN INS guided weapon?) able to be used from 10,000-15,000 feet and above the clouds would have reduced losses immensely and immeasurably more than literally anything else.

tl;dr Yeah F-104C would be fine for the most part. F-104S slightly less fine but if F-4C can work, so can F-104S, provided it's slinging AIM-9Cs instead of AIM-7Es.

Vietnam is really more of a story about the vindication of radar-guided AAA after its first outings in WW2 where "this is gonna hurt" was the order of the day to a truly lethal, aircraft mulching monster by the '60's, than the failures of either the USAF or the virtues of the USN in slapping around some GCI fighter jockeys using the latest RAF tactics c. 1942 tbh.
 
Last edited:
Seriously, how hard would it be for USAF, circa 1969, to procure some F-104S from Fiat in Turin ? The AMI bought 206 of them at slow pace: the production run stretched into 1979. The Turks also got some more, total 246.


I never quite understood how did the AMI put an AIM-7 Sparrow capability into the F-104 airframe ? Quite impressive. Plus they had a powerful J79 -19 in the back, to push them to at least Mach 2.35 (from memory). Most powerful Lawn Dart in the world.

(Quite interesting to think the last Skyhawk, the last Phantom - outside Japan, 1981 - and the last Starfighter all rolled out their respective production lines the same year - 1979).
 
Last edited:
Seriously, how hard would it be for USAF, circa 1969, to procure some F-104S from Fiat in Turin ? The AMI bought 235 of them at slow pace: the production run stretched into 1979.


I never quite understood how did the AMI put an AIM-7 Sparrow capability into the F-104 airframe ? Quite impressive. Plus they had a powerful J79 -17 in the back, to push them to at least Mach 2.35 (from memory). Most powerful Lawn Dart in the world.

(Quite interesting to think the last Skyhawk, the last Phantom - outside Japan, 1981 - and the last Starfighter all rolled out their respective production lines the same year - 1979).
they wouldn't have to even buy them from Fiat.. in theory they could retrofit existing by removing the Vulcan and putting in the radar and associated stuff that went in where the cannon used to live
 
Ah ok, I see the issue for Vietnam. Somewhat ironically, the italian Starfighters made room for a Sparrow capability by deleting the gun. Kind of funny to think the Phantom went the opposite way: born with Sparrows, added a gun later.
Wonder if a gun pod could be added to F-104S to get that lost capability back.
 
Ah ok, I see the issue for Vietnam. Somewhat ironically, the italian Starfighters made room for a Sparrow capability by deleting the gun. Kind of funny to think the Phantom went the opposite way: born with Sparrows, added a gun later.
Wonder if a gun pod could be added to F-104S to get that lost capability back.
would depend on the avionics, some could control a gun pod others not so much... assuming that it could, sure. But it will come with potential drag and might disturb weight distribution.
 
Ah ok, I see the issue for Vietnam. Somewhat ironically, the italian Starfighters made room for a Sparrow capability by deleting the gun. Kind of funny to think the Phantom went the opposite way: born with Sparrows, added a gun later.
Wonder if a gun pod could be added to F-104S to get that lost capability back.

F-104 didn't have a gun pod, but I suppose you could mate the SUU-16/23 to it. There shouldn't be any huge problems, I think the SUU-16/23 were the same size as the SUU-21 bomblet dispenser, which Starfighters carried for practice bombing. This wouldn't be a good solution since gunpods would be pretty brutal to Starfighter's already weedy legs, given it would be carrying bags and missiles for an air superiority job as well.

One of the best gunfighter radars ever made, the Emerson APQ-153, would be excellent for Vietnam air actions since it had a dogfight mode and missile cuing for AIM-9 shots. Unfortunately it shows up in 1973, not 1965, so it's a bit late to the party. Putting that in a Starfighter would be pretty radical and cool though.

Generally speaking, something that is short ranged (20 miles or less), WVR only, and adapted for automatic acquisition of nearest radar returns, ranging for gunfire, plotting movement for lining up heater (or guiding SARH Sidewinder -C) missile shots would be ideal for Vietnam's restricted air ROE which typically required VID and acquisition of targets due to mixed use airspace. Long range missiles aren't useful given the risk of swatting airliners full of middle and upper class Americans, and the associated radar weapon systems require dedicated operators still, which remains true until the 1980's.
 
Last edited:
Honestly don't really get the f-104 love going on here. It was a decent enough interceptor, but only as a interceptor, as the Germans found out it is not exactly maneuverable. Honestly the f-4 was better in every consvable metric (both as a interceptor and as a fighter) thats why the usaf only bought >200 f-104s and thousands of f-4s, also why the f-104 is generally consdered 2ed gen and the f-4 third.
 
While the Starfighter needed a small country to turn, it had superb acceleration and climb for its era. It was in many ways a more extreme version of the Phantom, performance-wise: speed and power for days, but you do not want to get into a turn fight in it.
 
and maybe side rail mounted Falcons
No. Not Falcons. Unless you can find a way to give them greater flexibility and unlimited on-rack cooling time, you're just inflicting the same problem on the Fang as the F-4D had, without the potential benefit of a backseater to wrestle with the missile warmup. By the time you've sorted out those issues and that of a direct hit being required, what you have is XAIM-4H, but the story I remember reading is that Robin Olds was so disgusted at the Falcon (for having denied him a first missile ace shot) that he wasn't going to give it another chance and did everything in his power to get the missile sh**canned.
 
Back
Top Bottom