High Speed Rail

[Machdiamond]

China pumped $89 billion into their high speed rail system in 2009 and $300 billion by 2020.

An efficient transportation system in terms of speed and energy cost is often a very wise investment.

IMHO, the high speed train delayed introduction in the US is a case where ideology is trumping rationale thinking. That is in the United States rather than in China. :

Based on my own experience, once you have taken a real high speed train you realise how the current airline system is comparatively an awkward mean of transportation for distances below 500 miles or so.

Or the unique silly feeling when you drive your car on a highway at 70mph, and a train is zipping past you right alongside the highway at 200+mph. You have to experience it once, it feels very strange and it is enlightening.

 

[sferrin]

Or the unique silly feeling when you drive your car on a highway at 70mph, and a train is zipping past you right alongside the highway at 200+mph. You have to experience it once, it feels very strange and it is enlightening.

Until you decide, hey I want to go over there. And you can't. You have to experience it once, it feels very strange and it is enlightening. :

 

[Machdiamond]

Very funny, of course you have more freedom with your car. Most of the time it remains the best way to go. I am not trying to make the argument for that.

The particular experience I was referring to was driving a rental car from Paris to Brussels, and there are a few stretches of highway where the Thalys is going alonside the highway. The speed difference gives a good hint that this has nothing to do with 19th century technology.

It just seems to me that most of those who oppose the high speed train in the United States have never seen one. And Acela is not the real deal.

Ok it is not just a matter of seeing one, it does make plenty of economical sense. But only on a macroeconomic scale, where the society as a whole takes benefit rather than some private entity, which is probably one of the reasons it fails to takeoff in the US.

Anyway I don't really care, just sharing my thoughts.

 

[mz]

Very funny, of course you have more freedom with your car. Most of the time it remains the best way to go. I am not trying to make the argument for that.

The particular experience I was referring to was driving a rental car from Paris to Brussels, and there are a few stretches of highway where the Thalys is going alonside the highway. The speed difference gives a good hint that this has nothing to do with 19th century technology.

It just seems to me that most of those who oppose the high speed train in the United States have never seen one. And Acela is not the real deal.

Ok it is not just a matter of seeing one, it does make plenty of economical sense. But only on a macroeconomic scale, where the society as a whole takes benefit rather than some private entity, which is probably one of the reasons it fails to takeoff in the US.

Anyway I don't really care, just sharing my thoughts.

You can of course read this about the high speed train projects in USA: http://evworld.com/currents.cfm?jid=172 . Can't vouch for its veracity.

As for the issue of cost overruns, there are some eight international consortiums from Europe and Asia vying for the contract to design and run the system for 30 years. Kunz says that all have guaranteed to cover all cost overruns; besides the federal government is ready to provide 90% of the funding for the project, much of the money coming from funds that Ohio and Wisconsin's governors turned down.

Seems like some good deals could be done there...

 

[Michel Van]

about US high speed rail.
it`s in a difficult position, because the US Aircraft Industry !
ALL fast longrange transport in US is made by Aircraft

In Europe (and China) things look diverent
not need for airportability like in US
so the french high speed rail got a big start in 1980s
and take a big bite out Europe airportability
like airway Brussel-Paris killed by high speed rail

So if US Gov pump $65 billion into high speed rail, they have make this question:
Wat take people to get from like Chicago to Las Vegas (1753 miles) ?
7 hours high speed rail or
3 hours with Boeing 767
Unfortunately i not know ticket cost for flight Chicago to Las Vegas
to make comparison with French high speed rail

 

[mz]

I think they're proposing much more modest projects with shorter distances, like the Tampa-Orlando (and later to Miami) between big cities / tourist traffic sites in that article.

 

[bobbymike]

Apparently there are only two "self funding" by ticket prices and other revenue generated by package delivery, high speed rail lines on the entire planet. One in France and one in Japan.

And I am with sferrin. Car, leave anytime, go any route, stop and get a bite to eat (at one of dozens of places) or shop for antiques , take a detour, choose your passengers, etc.

Speed or freedom, freedom baby every time!

 

[Machdiamond]

Speed or freedom, freedom baby every time!

Speed is freedom.

Just consider the ability to expand your daily commute to a radius of 300 miles rather than 100, and see how many additional job opportunities it brings without having to ask your spouse find another job.

That is the kind of issue that touches many people.

 

[bobbymike]

Another interesting fact is that despite a very well developed high speed rail system (and other forms of mass transit compared to the US) countries like France, Germany and the UK basically have the same ratio of cars to people as the US. If high speed rail was such a good (so freeing) way to travel wouldn't you have a statistically significant difference by this measure?

 

[saintkatanalegacy]

each has its own pros and cons

but what is the intent for china to invest in such a project?

they want to improve productivity of their workers by making sure they get to work in time even if they're far away

so in a sense, it also improves employment and they've concluded that it's a worthy investment for what they get in return macroeconomically

since not everybody there has cars... and just imagine them being stuck in a traffic jam

though I'm essentially libertarian, I can see the practicality in what they're planning since they're currently the best capitalists

and... they have LOTS of savings to boot

 

[Firefly 2]

Another interesting fact is that despite a very well developed high speed rail system (and other forms of mass transit compared to the US) countries like France, Germany and the UK basically have the same ratio of cars to people as the US. If high speed rail was such a good (so freeing) way to travel wouldn't you have a statistically significant difference by this measure?

You're making the unverified assumption that people are bound to a single means of transport.
Let's see.
I live near Brussels, actually a stonesthrow away from Brussels Airport ( in the town of Zaventem)
Now say I would like to go to Paris. Would I consider taking my trusty old Renault Kangoo and head of?
No.
Traffic jams are plenty on the highways between Brussels and Paris, and thus the costs rapidly rise when it comes to loss of time and fuel consumption. Furthermore, Paris is a reputedly difficult city to enter by car.
Hence: I would choose the Thalyss. No bother with all the perils of the road and quite comfy.
The same goes for London.
Most major metropoles have excellent public transportation, partially recreating the supposed freedom a car offers.
And cars loose a lot of their freedom of movement in a lot of cities due to sheer saturation.
Your argument is polarising, and it's attempt at humour flawed as it doesn't take a lot of factors into account.

On topic: There is logic to all these efforts from China. They are trying to bridge a gap with the western countries, and they are willing to spend the cash to do so by any means, and preferably within one generation. It seems they are doing this on all fronts, with prestigious military and civil projects. Wether this ambition will be fully realized or contained to a few prestigious projects remains to be seen.
The west on the other hand struggles with economic problems and huge deficits. There is not enough money to tackle all problems at once without making those deficits worse. Choices have to be made, and right now choices are made to develop civil infrastructure as opposed to military infrastructure. Wether this is a right choice is debatable, and the ultimate evaluation will be made during the next elections or so.

 

[sferrin]

The question I have is what exactly do the merits of high speed rail have to do with China's new launch facility?

 

[Machdiamond]

It was brought up in the first post.
Should the US cancel its high speed rail programs and funnel the money into new space programs.

 

[bobbymike]

The question I have is what exactly do the merits of high speed rail have to do with China's new launch facility?

Yes, sorry, I brought it up with regard to federal government spending priorities in the age of deficits and finite resources. I would prefer investments in future technologies not "best" done in the private sector. To me that is advanced propulsion, trips to Mars not train trips from Orlando to Tampa Bay the merits of high speed rail notwithstanding.

Or another way to say it, "what investment will make America more competitive, a few rail lines between major cities (with arguably no "real" transportation issues (lots of roads and plane routes) or money put into space technology including nanotech. materials research, etc."

 

[sublight]

Why not split off the thread into a high speed rail thread?

High speed rail sucks. Why not a partially evacuated tube, multi mach transport? If your going to do fast ground transportation, it needs to really compete with air transportation....

 

[mz]

Why not split off the thread into a high speed rail thread?

High speed rail sucks. Why not a partially evacuated tube, multi mach transport? If your going to do fast ground transportation, it needs to really compete with air transportation....

Yes, the mods should move this to the bar.

In the countryside, isn't the noise from high speed rail worse than airplanes? And the tracks block movement of humans and wildlife.

On the other hand, they can go right into city centers. In a large portion of cities the central railway station IS the center of the city.

You can dine *in* the train. You can even meet other people and chat. In the summer lots of people are traveling and you get to know other people. This happens in airplanes as well of course, though they are more cramped and there's no restaurant car or kids' play area or pet owners' car. You can work with your laptop. Watch movies with headphones on. All that is kinda hard in the bus without getting nausea. And impossible if you are driving by yourself. Modern seamless tracks and gas suspension air conditioned carriages are quite good.

Trains have been the way czars travelled.

Aren't high speed trains also much more vulnerable to accidents and more available to terrorism than airplanes?

I love how I can just hop in without any baggage and after a short while I'm in another city center. Buy a ticket from a machine at the station five minutes before departure. Earlier you could just buy it once onboard. I can also take my bicycle if I want.

I think a busy stol turboprop airfield reachable easily from the city center might be the closest equivalent to longer distance higher speed trains. You spend more time with all the other things than flying on 500 km length routes anyway. There might not be point to point train routes everywhere but you can hop out from the train in many of the stations along the way and change to another one. This requires that the train network works and everything is on time.

In the long term on very high volume routes, evacuated tubes are the future. Very steady and safe. Once we get nuclear tunnel boring machines... In Japan, they have earthquakes to worry about, don't know what happens deep inside rock then.

 

[sublight]

I'm suggesting a maglev inside a vacuum or partial vacuum tube. The carrier could then go multi-mach. If we can cover the country with high pressure gas and oil lines, then the engineering for a larger evacuated line shouldn't be outrageously difficult. Since the carrier wouldn't touch the tube, it should be completely silent. The hard part is getting carriers in and out of the tube without compromising the vacuum.

 

[sferrin]

I'm suggesting a maglev inside a vacuum or partial vacuum tube. The carrier could then go multi-mach. If we can cover the country with high pressure gas and oil lines, then the engineering for a larger evacuated line shouldn't be outrageously difficult. Since the carrier wouldn't touch the tube, it should be completely silent. The hard part is getting carriers in and out of the tube without compromising the vacuum.

See the tube trains in the Night's Dawn Trilogy.

 

[Michel Van]

In the countryside, isn't the noise from high speed rail worse than airplanes? And the tracks block movement of humans and wildlife.

i live next to HSL-3 line Liege-Aachen for High-speed Trains
next to E40 Highway Liege-Aachen and under major Airway crossroad in Europe
the low approaching Aircraft for Liege or Maastrich Airport make more and longer noise as the High speed trains

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

There are many types of transport, public and private, each can have a place in a sensible transport policy. I use trains and buses to get to work, which takes a bit longer than driving but which is cheaper and gives me lots of time to read books.

Whether this specific rail project is sensible, I have no idea, but for some reason this is appears an ideologically charged subject for some forum members, so I suggest we shelve this discussion, unless someone has something interesting to add.

 

[Orionblamblam]

I suggest we shelve this discussion, unless someone has something interesting to add.

Like the German "Breitspurbahn" plans to connect Europe from France to Moscow with a series of truly big-ass double decker trains? Truly nutty (especially the early Zeppelin concepts that had a single-car train that actually *looked* like a Zeppelin on rails, propelled by pusher props), but the Germans were always good for entertainingly nutty ideas like that.

PS: If you use both trains and buses to get to work... sounds like you either live too far from work, or work too far from home.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

I suggest we shelve this discussion, unless someone has something interesting to add.

Like the German "Breitspurbahn" plans to connect Europe from France to Moscow with a series of truly big-ass double decker trains? Truly nutty (especially the early Zeppelin concepts that had a single-car train that actually *looked* like a Zeppelin on rails, propelled by pusher props), but the Germans were always good for entertainingly nutty ideas like that.

PS: If you use both trains and buses to get to work... sounds like you either live too far from work, or work too far from home.

I go in via bus (fast) but come home by train (gives me a decent walk for exercise).

 

[piko1]

planes and the high speed rail transport walk hand by hand some company's like bombardier for isntance produce high speed trains and planes it is challenging for a new comer as China to make high speed railroad's America is different story they already have the infrastructure they only need to make it cost efficient as more people will consider the train as less attractive you cant change someone's ideology for a day Japan Germany France are the perfect examples of what an high speed rail road can achieve
not to mention that even Lufthansa operates trains "Lufthansa Airport Express" is the example of such symbiosis Deutsche Bundesbahn ( DB ) Class 403 ( not to be mistaken with ICE 3) a longly used high speed EMV with top speed of 220km/h build in 70's as IC the father of now well know Inter-City Express (ICE) it was retired in 1993 due corrosion of the aluminium alloy
once a old man say'd to me "Planes and the trains are alike both use rails"

bout sound concerns of some people

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIkL7ZLs3n4

sounds like concorde eh ;D

 

[blackkite]

Hi! Tohoku Shinkansen's new train HAYABUSA(Ki-43 ;D). This train bigins to run between Tokyo and Aomori from this March.
This train has very wide special seats(expensive). It has the ability to run 320km/h, but at first it runs 300km/h.

 

[fightingirish]

I would love to use and see High-speed Railways in the USA, but it just not fits with the political climate right now.
I think, that America, probably Boeing, should invest more in a twin aisle, short to medium haul passenger aircraft. That would be a real B727/737/B757 and A320 successor.

 

[sublight]

These guys have patented the vacuum tube concept and are selling licenses.... http://www.et3.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evacuated_Tube_Transport

 

[bobbymike]

When I discussed the issue it was not political or ideological but economic in an age of finite resources. If a government puts money into "future technologies" where will it get the most bang for the buck. The fact is that NASA's budget was cut prior to an introduction of a $50+billion plan to build high speed rail.

I "suggested" that might not be the best use for the dollar. I was trying to spur discussion of investments in technology not modes of transportation. My family lives four hours away and I would love a high speed rail link between the cities but not at the expense of more pressing technology spending priorities.

 

[Orionblamblam]

I would love to use and see High-speed Railways in the USA, but it just not fits with the political climate right now.

A couple things:
1: Amtrak is not substantially cheaper than air travel. Why would a more advanced system requiring a major infrastructure overhaul be less expensive?
2: I'm honestly surprised and confused by the lack of terrorist attacks on the European high speed rail systems. Taking out one of those trains and killing every man, woman and child would be logistically far easier than taking out an airliner. To blow up an airliner, you have to get *on* the airliner. To take out a train, you don't need to get on the train. Just in front of it. As as the video above shows, it's not like the whole line is surrounded by thrity-foot-tall, ten-foor thick steel reinforced concrete walls topped with razorwire and robogun turrets. First time someone with a Mission figures this out and pulls it off, all discussion of high speed rail in the US will grind to a stop faster than discussion of nuclear-powered SST's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpzUCA5i6zY

 

[Machdiamond]

I'm honestly surprised and confused by the lack of terrorist attacks on the European high speed rail systems.

In 1994 a bomb blew up in a TGV at high speed. The damage was significant, fortunately the train stayed upright and managed to stop and only a few people were hurt. There was another TGV bomb explosion in 1983 (3 dead) with similar limited results. I also remember a natural sinkhole that opened up under a TGV track many years ago, the train basically flew over it, derailed, but managed to stay upright because of the way the cars are connected to each other. So it can be made very resiliant to abuse and a less interesting terror target.

Regarding the comparison with air travel, I don't believe a high speed train is less expensive but it is significantly more convenient and efficient than air travel, much faster below 300 miles anyway, so you get more bang for the buck. It is more expensive but it is also better in many ways. Just one TGV train costs almost as much as a Boeing 737 (in the $20 million range).

 

[Orionblamblam]

In 1994 a bomb blew up in a TGV at high speed. The damage was significant, fortunately the train stayed upright and managed to stop and only a few people were hurt. There was another TGV bomb explosion in 1983 (3 dead) with similar limited results.

Showing the lack of creativity in modern terrorists. If you want to take out a high-speed train, there are more methods available than a bomb. There are methods available that could be built in a halfway decently provisioned home workshop that would *not* raise any red flags with authorities if they walked through and saw all your materials, unlike bomb production. Just some big chunks of steel.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Locked...