Grey Havoc

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Via Slashdot:
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/09/us/california-high-speed-rail-politics.html (Registration or subscription may be required)

LOS ANGELES — Building the nation’s first bullet train, which would connect Los Angeles and San Francisco, was always going to be a formidable technical challenge, pushing through the steep mountains and treacherous seismic faults of Southern California with a series of long tunnels and towering viaducts.
But the design for the nation’s most ambitious infrastructure project was never based on the easiest or most direct route. Instead, the train’s path out of Los Angeles was diverted across a second mountain range to the rapidly growing suburbs of the Mojave Desert — a route whose most salient advantage appeared to be that it ran through the district of a powerful Los Angeles county supervisor.
The dogleg through the desert was only one of several times over the years when the project fell victim to political forces that have added billions of dollars in costs and called into question whether the project can ever be finished.

Now, as the nation embarks on a historic, $1 trillion infrastructure building spree, the tortured effort to build the country’s first high-speed rail system is a case study in how ambitious public works projects can become perilously encumbered by political compromise, unrealistic cost estimates, flawed engineering and a determination to persist on projects that have become, like the crippled financial institutions of 2008, too big to fail.
 
Via Slashdot:
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/09/us/california-high-speed-rail-politics.html (Registration or subscription may be required)

LOS ANGELES — Building the nation’s first bullet train, which would connect Los Angeles and San Francisco, was always going to be a formidable technical challenge, pushing through the steep mountains and treacherous seismic faults of Southern California with a series of long tunnels and towering viaducts.
But the design for the nation’s most ambitious infrastructure project was never based on the easiest or most direct route. Instead, the train’s path out of Los Angeles was diverted across a second mountain range to the rapidly growing suburbs of the Mojave Desert — a route whose most salient advantage appeared to be that it ran through the district of a powerful Los Angeles county supervisor.
The dogleg through the desert was only one of several times over the years when the project fell victim to political forces that have added billions of dollars in costs and called into question whether the project can ever be finished.

Now, as the nation embarks on a historic, $1 trillion infrastructure building spree, the tortured effort to build the country’s first high-speed rail system is a case study in how ambitious public works projects can become perilously encumbered by political compromise, unrealistic cost estimates, flawed engineering and a determination to persist on projects that have become, like the crippled financial institutions of 2008, too big to fail.
What High Speed Rail?!
 
That would be the "Browndoggle" named for Governor Jerry "Moonbeams" Brown who supported pushed through the project during his time in office.
 
Gosh, if only there was some other technology available that would allow distant cities to be connected by a high-speed transportation system that *didn't* require building hundreds of miles of physical infrastructure across uneven, quake-prone terrain requiring eminent domain seizures on an industrial scale.
 
That being the derrigiblimp lifted by the hot air ducted from top politicians and powered by microwave power beamed down from the O'Neill orbital colonies?
 
That being the derrigiblimp lifted by the hot air ducted from top politicians and powered by microwave power beamed down from the O'Neill orbital colonies?
Run that sucker through a hyperloop tube and you've got a concept that makes a hell of a lot more sense than a Californian high speed train.
 
Via Slashdot:
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/09/us/california-high-speed-rail-politics.html (Registration or subscription may be required)

But the design for the nation’s most ambitious infrastructure project was never based on the easiest or most direct route. Instead, the train’s path out of Los Angeles was diverted across a second mountain range to the rapidly growing suburbs of the Mojave Desert — a route whose most salient advantage appeared to be that it ran through the district of a powerful Los Angeles county supervisor.
The dogleg through the desert was only one of several times over the years when the project fell victim to political forces that have added billions of dollars in costs and called into question whether the project can ever be finished.
Politics will always get involved in these kinds of things. For politicians, KISS is only ever a Glam rock band from the 70s.

Even in Japan, this kind of sh*t happens. The route for the high-speed maglev from Tokyo to Osaka is in suspension because one prefectural governor doesn’t like the face that it traverses a part of HIS prefecture, but doesn’t stop there.
 
Gosh, if only there was some other technology available that would allow distant cities to be connected by a high-speed transportation system that *didn't* require building hundreds of miles of physical infrastructure across uneven, quake-prone terrain requiring eminent domain seizures on an industrial scale.
If these projects are conducted professionally, they can have advantages over the plane: direct city centre to city centre travel, without the need to go to an out-of-town airport, go through security, arrive at another out-of-town airport, wait for your baggage (if neccessary), and then get transport in to your destination.

That’s the main reason the channel tunnel service is so popular.
 
because one prefectural governor doesn’t like the face that it traverses a part of HIS prefecture, but doesn’t stop there.

And he is goddam right, because I can tell you this is a major negative side effect of TGV.
There are actually FOUR major negative side effects
- SNCF pumping all its money into the lucrative TGV and letting rot everything else (non TGV sucks !)
- new railway stations specially build for TGV being build away from town centers, and soon turning into ghostly white elephants & vanity projects
- former railway stations closed down because not profitable enough for TGV, or for a "TGV rebuild"
- TGV screaming past some cities at 200 mph but not stopping there because "not profitable to stop" - with the inhabitants and taxpayers either banging their heads against walls or just feeling forgotten and soon turning yellow jackets.

France went perhaps a little too far with indirectly-nuclear-powered-HSR. One positive side is, no CO2 and just fast enough to displace air traffic across 500 miles trips. On the negative side(s)... see above.

In passing, the SNCF are a bunch of morons, but that's part of their DNA since the company creation in 1937. MAin problem ain't really HSR-TGV, but the company that manage them. Now here is a French company you can apply all French caricatures on (minus the cheese, the wine, and the baguette - not their core business). More like a badly broken or flawed public service.
 
direct city centre to city centre travel, without the need to go to an out-of-town airport,
Huh. If only there was a technology that would allow that sort of thing to happen without digging Big Dig-style tunnels under cities or tearing up existing infrastructure...
We have the same issue here in Australia Orionblamblam, in that network land corridors that were planned and reserved for highways and railways were sold off to developers and it never stopped, to the point that now such critical infrastructure is deemed imperative, both sides of politics has to embark on stupendously expensive and time dragging tunnel systems.... :rolleyes: :mad:


Regards
Pioneer
 
I’m an F Railway Nut (FRN)—so I suggest a compromise. Federally fund it if California lifts Diamond lanes and other stupid refs.
 
There is possibly one shimmer of hope which is the Brightline West. This is the west coast equivalent to Florida's Brightline which was completed on-time and on-budget in cooperation with the State of FL, is running and completing expansion to Orlando. Brightline West is the high-speed rail system from Vegas to LA. Construction to begin 2023. Brightline has already purchased 160 acres next to McCarran Airport. Brightline should have no issues working with Nevada, CA who knows.
 
direct city centre to city centre travel, without the need to go to an out-of-town airport,
Huh. If only there was a technology that would allow that sort of thing to happen without digging Big Dig-style tunnels under cities or tearing up existing infrastructure...
Ah yes, lets go with the very expensive, low capacity, and a bit dangerous technology, instead of the one the rest of the world using.
 
That being the derrigiblimp lifted by the hot air ducted from top politicians and powered by microwave power beamed down from the O'Neill orbital colonies?
I have it on good authority that some of that infrastructure is already in place.
secret-jewish-space-laser-corps-mazel-tough-shirt-hoodie.jpg
 
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direct city centre to city centre travel, without the need to go to an out-of-town airport,
Huh. If only there was a technology that would allow that sort of thing to happen without digging Big Dig-style tunnels under cities or tearing up existing infrastructure...
Ah yes, lets go with the very expensive, low capacity, and a bit dangerous technology, instead of the one the rest of the world using.
You're right. Because one solution fits every possible circumstance. Paris to Berlin? High speed train! Boston to New York? High speed train! Anchorage to Oahu? High speed train! Miami to Havana? High speed train! Gondor to Baradur? High speed train! Denver to Leadville? High speed train! To hell with geography and existing buildings and infrastructure... just plow straight through mountains and bogs and buildings and neighborhoods and build vastly expensive infrastructure that will take *decades* to get running, while aerial technology gets far cheaper and more common. It's the right thing to do, because that's what everybody else did. Because if everybody else did it, it *must* be the one solution to rule them all!

Bah. I'll take low capacity any day if it means I don't have to sit near the psychopathic drug-fueled swamp monsters that populate urban trains. I've ridden the Washington Metro. No, thank you.
 
direct city centre to city centre travel, without the need to go to an out-of-town airport,
Huh. If only there was a technology that would allow that sort of thing to happen without digging Big Dig-style tunnels under cities or tearing up existing infrastructure...
We have the same issue here in Australia Orionblamblam, in that network land corridors that were planned and reserved for highways and railways were sold off to developers and it never stopped, to the point that now such critical infrastructure is deemed imperative, both sides of politics has to embark on stupendously expensive and time dragging tunnel systems.... :rolleyes: :mad:
Big Dig:

In short, planning began in 1982, construction began in 1991, planned for completion in 1998. Actual completion in 2006. Estimated cost, $7.4 billion in 2020 dollars; actual cost, in excess of $22 billion. All this for a 1.5 mile tunnel. Anyone care to explain why a train project would necessarily be run more efficiently and sensibly? Why a massive new train project into city centers could even conceivably be done without driving an anime-style megabulldozer through a trillion dollars worth of existing architecture?

California proved it can't do this sort of thing out in the sticks. Why think they can do it *in* *town*?
 
direct city centre to city centre travel, without the need to go to an out-of-town airport,
Huh. If only there was a technology that would allow that sort of thing to happen without digging Big Dig-style tunnels under cities or tearing up existing infrastructure...
We have the same issue here in Australia Orionblamblam, in that network land corridors that were planned and reserved for highways and railways were sold off to developers and it never stopped, to the point that now such critical infrastructure is deemed imperative, both sides of politics has to embark on stupendously expensive and time dragging tunnel systems.... :rolleyes: :mad:
Big Dig:

In short, planning began in 1982, construction began in 1991, planned for completion in 1998. Actual completion in 2006. Estimated cost, $7.4 billion in 2020 dollars; actual cost, in excess of $22 billion. All this for a 1.5 mile tunnel. Anyone care to explain why a train project would necessarily be run more efficiently and sensibly? Why a massive new train project into city centers could even conceivably be done without driving an anime-style megabulldozer through a trillion dollars worth of existing architecture?

California proved it can't do this sort of thing out in the sticks. Why think they can do it *in* *town*?
CA HSR spent $9B to go from Green Acres to Hooterville to Pixlie, $9B just to bring back a classic American sitcom (Green Acres), we live in such wonderful times. Real west coast high speed rail (I know I am dreaming): San Diego to LA to SF, (skip Sacramento) to Portland to Seattle then Vancouver, a real high speed rail express, hit the major cities and make it Maglev, wait Maglev? Then we can't plug in and charge our electric cars, that sucks. Imagine the level of CA environmental impact studies, oh boy.
 
direct city centre to city centre travel, without the need to go to an out-of-town airport,
Huh. If only there was a technology that would allow that sort of thing to happen without digging Big Dig-style tunnels under cities or tearing up existing infrastructure...
We have the same issue here in Australia Orionblamblam, in that network land corridors that were planned and reserved for highways and railways were sold off to developers and it never stopped, to the point that now such critical infrastructure is deemed imperative, both sides of politics has to embark on stupendously expensive and time dragging tunnel systems.... :rolleyes: :mad:
Big Dig:

In short, planning began in 1982, construction began in 1991, planned for completion in 1998. Actual completion in 2006. Estimated cost, $7.4 billion in 2020 dollars; actual cost, in excess of $22 billion. All this for a 1.5 mile tunnel. Anyone care to explain why a train project would necessarily be run more efficiently and sensibly? Why a massive new train project into city centers could even conceivably be done without driving an anime-style megabulldozer through a trillion dollars worth of existing architecture?

California proved it can't do this sort of thing out in the sticks. Why think they can do it *in* *town*?
Excellent point. How would Hyperloop compare?
 
Excellent point. How would Hyperloop compare?

Big Dig was a standard road tunnel. Hyperloop would be a *vacuum* tunnel needing not only the massive vacuum tubes, but also regular vacuum pumps and impressive airlocks big enough for the vehicles, with pumps powerful enough to blow them down in seconds.

So... a bajillion times more expensive. Maybe even a bagrillion times. Especially when you factor in that Hyperloop is a damned nutty idea of limited merit and more limited technical practicality. Flying VTOL Teslas would be vastly preferable.
 
Its looks like work of Franz Kafka
Since the French start build their TGV system 1981, the USA struggle now since 40 years to build similar system!
in mean time China rams there version of TGV system in record time true there nations connecting cities...
They even copycat the German Transrapid and push it's to speed of 600km/s and building tracks

While California struggle to build conventional high speed train line since decades...

in mean time the Chuo Shinkansen L0 series manage to fly 660km/h on his test track !
Even in Japan, this kind of sh*t happens. The route for the high-speed maglev from Tokyo to Osaka is in suspension because one prefectural governor doesn’t like the face that it traverses a part of HIS prefecture, but doesn’t stop there.
The crazy part of it, the Chuo Shinkansen has to pass true that entire prefecture in 25 km long tunnel !
Current alternative planning on that issue is to build tracks AROUND north that prefecture (see in Red in picture)
but more likely that local yakuza are payed a truckload of money to deal there way with this prefectural governor.
While police and justice looks in other way, the typical method to deal with issue like this in Japan complex society...

Chūō_Shinkansen_map.png
 
Even in Japan, this kind of sh*t happens. The route for the high-speed maglev from Tokyo to Osaka is in suspension because one prefectural governor doesn’t like the face that it traverses a part of HIS prefecture, but doesn’t stop there.
The crazy part of it, the Chuo Shinkansen has to pass true that entire prefecture in 25 km long tunnel !
Current alternative planning on that issue is to build tracks AROUND north that prefecture (see in Red in picture)
but more likely that local yakuza are payed a truckload of money to deal there way with this prefectural governor.
While police and justice looks in other way, the typical method to deal with issue like this in Japan complex society...

Chūō_Shinkansen_map.png
That kind of yakuza move is only seen in movies. They’re pretty third-rate, localized bravos. The only reason they get so much column inches is because the things they do - roughing people up, shooting the occasional rival / person who’s crossed them - is because that kind of thing is so rare in Japan.

Japan is infested with extreme localism. I’ve lived in areas where a long, expensive one-lane bridge has been provided for locals - just because the expressway going through their town has cut through an old farming path. And this is where a small diversion would bring the farmers to the main road where they could drive across the new bridge crossing the expressway and back up to the other side of the old farming road.

Locals want something in return for progress/disruption.

The same expressway had oodles of exits into the countryside for the same reason.

The same thing happened with AEGIS Ashore. Up in Akita City there was a lot of opposition - and one of the sources of contention was that the locals hadn’t been offered anything to make the project palatable.
 
direct city centre to city centre travel, without the need to go to an out-of-town airport,
Huh. If only there was a technology that would allow that sort of thing to happen without digging Big Dig-style tunnels under cities or tearing up existing infrastructure...
We have the same issue here in Australia Orionblamblam, in that network land corridors that were planned and reserved for highways and railways were sold off to developers and it never stopped, to the point that now such critical infrastructure is deemed imperative, both sides of politics has to embark on stupendously expensive and time dragging tunnel systems.... :rolleyes: :mad:
Big Dig:

In short, planning began in 1982, construction began in 1991, planned for completion in 1998. Actual completion in 2006. Estimated cost, $7.4 billion in 2020 dollars; actual cost, in excess of $22 billion. All this for a 1.5 mile tunnel. Anyone care to explain why a train project would necessarily be run more efficiently and sensibly? Why a massive new train project into city centers could even conceivably be done without driving an anime-style megabulldozer through a trillion dollars worth of existing architecture?

California proved it can't do this sort of thing out in the sticks. Why think they can do it *in* *town*?
I really recommend Henry Petroski’s work. He has an article on the Big Dig in American Scientist, which may be in “To Forgive Design”. I can‘t be certain as it’s on my wishlist.

I can wholeheartedly recommend “The Road Taken”. It covers the development of America’s infrastructure, with all the mix of local politics, national government, science, and engineering that entails. All applicable in one form or other to whatever country you reside in.
 

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