Some tailless weirdness called FCAS presents in MTU 2022 results video.
Interesting that Diehl had it's very own Airbus FCAS model at their booth at PAS'23)
Doesn't look like a serious design. Looks like they just wanted to present something that looks like a future aircraft without getting into conflict with the different FCAS designs.
Meantime at DLR...
Thanks for all these interesting documents. Based on these researches, the new airplane would become a heavy fighter, larger than the F-22 or Su-57 with two engines with the thrust of an F135 (F-35). I can already hear the people complaining about the prices of that airplane :D

Remember it does still have to take off from a French aircraft carrier as well.... Thats going to be the main limiter of size.
 
Some tailless weirdness called FCAS presents in MTU 2022 results video.
Interesting that Diehl had it's very own Airbus FCAS model at their booth at PAS'23)
Doesn't look like a serious design. Looks like they just wanted to present something that looks like a future aircraft without getting into conflict with the different FCAS designs.
Meantime at DLR...
Thanks for all these interesting documents. Based on these researches, the new airplane would become a heavy fighter, larger than the F-22 or Su-57 with two engines with the thrust of an F135 (F-35). I can already hear the people complaining about the prices of that airplane :D

Remember it does still have to take off from a French aircraft carrier as well.... Thats going to be the main limiter of size.
Excellent point, though I suspect the French Navy is going to have to suck up the size as long as the plane can physically land slow enough. Because too many of their other requirements mean a big plane.

Remember that France is already planning on a carrier about 75000tons, that's between QE class and JFK in size. Most concept art has it looking very much like a 75% model of the Ford class.
 
Some tailless weirdness called FCAS presents in MTU 2022 results video.
Interesting that Diehl had it's very own Airbus FCAS model at their booth at PAS'23)
Doesn't look like a serious design. Looks like they just wanted to present something that looks like a future aircraft without getting into conflict with the different FCAS designs.
Meantime at DLR...
Thanks for all these interesting documents. Based on these researches, the new airplane would become a heavy fighter, larger than the F-22 or Su-57 with two engines with the thrust of an F135 (F-35). I can already hear the people complaining about the prices of that airplane :D

Remember it does still have to take off from a French aircraft carrier as well.... Thats going to be the main limiter of size.
Excellent point, though I suspect the French Navy is going to have to suck up the size as long as the plane can physically land slow enough. Because too many of their other requirements mean a big plane.

Remember that France is already planning on a carrier about 75000tons, that's between QE class and JFK in size. Most concept art has it looking very much like a 75% model of the Ford class.
Completely forgot that. Yes the low stall speed will be a limiting factor. Can maybe be compensated by thrust vectoring and landings at high angle of attack like on the X-31?

France will begin the construction of its next-generation nuclear aircraft carrier by 2026, with sea trials to start by 2037.

That would match the plans for the FCAS which is supposed to enter service in 2040.
Based on the French mockup and the renderings they published, the plane looks smaller than what the Germany researches require. I am curious how they want to solve these problems and different interests.
 
If the various European partners don't want to accept the limiting factors of a carrier compatible design (dimensions, weight, structure and finally cost), and as France can't realistically afford to go solo, I wonder if France would accept a fully land-based design and then, in a distant future, procure some late batch F-35C or the incoming F/A-XX for their carrier(s)?
What other options? Rafale are beautiful but are/will become obsolete against latest air defense systems. Maybe by first teaming the Rafale with a new carrier-based UCAV? Then go for a fully autonomous UCAV after the Rafale retires?
 
If the various European partners don't want to accept the limiting factors of a carrier compatible design (dimensions, weight, structure and finally cost), and as France can't realistically afford to go solo, I wonder if France would accept a fully land-based design and then, in a distant future, procure some late batch F-35C or the incoming F/A-XX for their carrier(s)?
What other options? Rafale are beautiful but are/will become obsolete against latest air defense systems. Maybe by first teaming the Rafale with a new carrier-based UCAV? Then go for a fully autonomous UCAV after the Rafale retires?
That is a question that probably keeps French Admirals up at night. The F/A-XX is going to be a larger aircraft, and very expensive. Some late F-35Cs are probably going to be the affordable option.
 
If the various European partners don't want to accept the limiting factors of a carrier compatible design (dimensions, weight, structure and finally cost), and as France can't realistically afford to go solo
The F/A-18 and Rafale experience would seem to indicate that the penalties of a well-designed carrier compatible design are very small and probably not an issue. As for size, something in the F-14 Tomcat to F-111B or A-5 Vigilante size range is entirely possible… ie. about 35 tons. That leaves quite some design space.

As for going solo, it’s not ideal but given Dassault’s historical export success some in France may be tempted to go down that route, perhaps with only 1-2 small partners in tow (ideally one of the Neuron partners).
 
I doubt that France would buy any F-35C. Their aviation industry is highly focussed on being independend from the US.
Maybe a variant like the F-35C would be a solution if the general dimensions and weight are okay- an carrier based airplane with somthing like 90% similarity to the land based version.
 
I am pretty sure that the reality check that goes with NATO exercises would allow French Naval aviators to have their say at one time or another. If not, the budget issues will do for them (not an ideal solution).

French Navy needs a stealth airplane now. Not in 20 years.
 
Last edited:
I am pretty sure that the reality check that goes with NATO exercises would allow French Naval aviators to have their say at one time or another. If not, the budget issues will do for them (not an ideal solution).

French Navy needs a stealth airplane now. Not in 20 years.
Why do you think they need it now? In any case, without an import France won't have stealthy aircraft before 2040. And many countries still buy expensive new Gen 4 airplanes like the F-15 instead of switching to Gen 4+ or Gen 5 airplanes. I assigned the F-15 to 4th generation because it still has one of the largest RCS, although already including many 4th+ generation systems.
Not sure anyone has produced a stealth aircraft with folding wings though, F-35 is quite compact and larger carrier aircraft can all fold their wings.
Storage size and wingspan is not the only problem, it is also the length and weight. But based on the latest renderings from Dassault, it does not look like that they are going to develope an aircraft with foldable wings.
 
Storage size and wingspan is not the only problem, it is also the length and weight. But based on the latest renderings from Dassault, it does not look like that they are going to develope an aircraft with foldable wings.

Based on all the info available, the NGF is approximately the same size as the « fixed wing Tomcat » (Grumman 303F) design that lost out to the swing-wing 303E (what became the F-14A).

Approximate comparison below… the 303F was quite a looker but unfortunately the technology of the day wasn’t good enough to generate enough lift from a fixed wing planform.

303F-1.jpg
 

Attachments

  • Image.jpeg
    Image.jpeg
    172.9 KB · Views: 68
Last edited:
If the next generation fighter is going to be the same size as the Grumman 303F fixed wing Tomcat France will be needing the new aircraft carrier as well.
 
What they will have, see post #923 and #924
The question is if they want to operate such a large plane from their aircraft carrier and also if the other partners want such an expensive plane. If they really include all systems they want and considering the development costs, I estimate a unit cost similar to the one of the F-22. This would then lead to a debacle with unit reductions and high operating costs, further increasing the price. Raptor history 2.0,.
 
What they will have, see post #923 and #924
The question is if they want to operate such a large plane from their aircraft carrier and also if the other partners want such an expensive plane. If they really include all systems they want and considering the development costs, I estimate a unit cost similar to the one of the F-22. This would then lead to a debacle with unit reductions and high operating costs, further increasing the price. Raptor history 2.0,.
If they want a stealthy aircraft with range/carrying capacity equal to the Rafale/Typhoon, it's going to be large and it's going to be expensive. No bucks, no Buck Rogers.

I mean, the Rafale and Typhoon are already $115mil and $125mil, respectively, while the F-35C is $118mil (2021 dollars). (source: https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/27553-top-10-most-expensive-fighter-jets-in-2021 and note how the Gripen is actually 10% more expensive than the F-35A!)

Personal rough-guess is $150-165mil per plane in 2021 dollars, and the only way to reduce costs is to reduce stealth or built-in systems. What's French for "Fitted For, but Not With"?
 
What they will have, see post #923 and #924
The question is if they want to operate such a large plane from their aircraft carrier and also if the other partners want such an expensive plane. If they really include all systems they want and considering the development costs, I estimate a unit cost similar to the one of the F-22. This would then lead to a debacle with unit reductions and high operating costs, further increasing the price. Raptor history 2.0,.
If they want a stealthy aircraft with range/carrying capacity equal to the Rafale/Typhoon, it's going to be large and it's going to be expensive. No bucks, no Buck Rogers.

I mean, the Rafale and Typhoon are already $115mil and $125mil, respectively, while the F-35C is $118mil (2021 dollars). (source: https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/27553-top-10-most-expensive-fighter-jets-in-2021 and note how the Gripen is actually 10% more expensive than the F-35A!)

Personal rough-guess is $150-165mil per plane in 2021 dollars, and the only way to reduce costs is to reduce stealth or built-in systems. What's French for "Fitted For, but Not With"?
These calculations are always complicated, depending on the packeges countries buy or what other costs they include. Sometimes, even from the same aircraft, different prices are offered to different countries depending on who is negotiating or what the nation orders in the package. As the author himself writes, these are export prices, so not the price that the developing nations will have to pay, which is what this discussion is about.

With everything else, I fully agree. Let's see how European politicians will decide after Ukraine war. In my experience, every euro is turned over as soon as the scale of the costs has become clear to more people and there is no acute threat.
 
Uh oh....Francis Tusa is a little unconvinced...Dassault playing hardball perhaps, trying to put the fear up the German's?

View: https://twitter.com/DefAeroNews/status/1680936615814758400


Article Text

PARIS --- First piece of mood music: SCAF is not “officially dead”, but it is not far off. The mock-up, you know, the one without wheels that struggled to impress when we saw it four years ago, was back, on its Jack Jones in a pen which seemed to attract no-one at all. You might have thought that there would have been a new model, looking a bit more credible?

You could look for signs of SCAF on Dassault’s stand and outdoor exhibits pretty much in vain. One wag suggested that the English version of the acronym “SCAF”, the confusing “FCAS” (the same as the UK’s ...) actually stood for “Forlorn Combat Air System” .... Oh, that was from a French observer, not some sale Rosbif!

But you would have been crushed by the number of different Rafale models, including a collection of 1:5-scale ones in the paint schemes of every operator. It looked good!

Any mention of SCAF in Dassault’s press conference?

If there was, it was so brief that Defence Analysis’s sharp-eared correspondent missed it – as did everyone else. For such a totemic programme to not even get name checked by Dassault Aviation’s Eric Trappier speaks volumes, if that isn’t tautological. Mr. Trappier was also rather offhand about SCAF in his pre-Show interviews, to put it mildly.

And two weeks previously, despite no mention of it in the Loi de Programmation Militaire 2024–30, Sebastien Lecornu told the Senate that the programme for a loyal wingman family, based on work done to date for the Neuron UCAV, was now fully funded, and it would see deliveries from 2030, and whatever is developed, as well as “effectors”, smaller UAVs/loyal wingmen will also feature, too, in this Rafale World. But if these start to arrive around 2030, what does this mean for the loyal wingman/effectors for SCAF? Hang on, who’s responsibility is loyal wingmen in SCAF? Oh, it’s Germany/Airbus Defence and Space....

And then at Le Bourget, Dassault and Dassault Systèmes announced a new initiative to create a French sovereign Combat Cloud, just, you know, if anyone wanted one. And whose responsibility is the Combat Cloud for SCAF (checks notes)? Oh, it’s (Germany’s) Airbus Defence and Space!

By-the-way, Defence Analysis suspects that Thales will have looked at this announcement with a degree of concern ....

Talks with Airbus Defence and Space, as well as corporate, really suggested to Defence Analysis that the company(s) just don’t “get” that the Franco-German defence/security relationship is not what is once was, that is the core of European defence. There was still a lot of, “but this is the motor of Europe, and there are no alternatives!”

Yes, but ....

Without getting into a fight with any tar babies, observers in Berlin/Munich might like to note what are seen in France as egregious insults: decision to buy P-8 MPAs, decision not to continue work on Tiger attack helicopter, withdrawal from a battlefield engagement missile family in favour of local production of an Israeli missile, and looking as if the next generation MBT will be “Leopard 2A8/9”, entirely German-dominated, as opposed to a bilateral programme.

There are still some (occasionally) warm words, as in Germany’s new security strategy, but one gets the impression that they were cut and pasted in from another document – the relations soured in 2020–22, and not only have not got better, they are still quietly – and irrevocably – deteriorating. "Germany: they’re just not that into you ....”

Oh, and Belgium entering SCAF, even “just” as an observer? French sources say, sure, but it’ll cost you €3–350m ....

Swordfish Enters


Just prior to the start of Le Bourget, Onera, the French state-owned aerospace test/trials body unveiled its concept for a hypersonic fighter, named “Espadon”, or “Swordfish”.

So what? Well, Onera says that this could see service around 2040. So what? Well, even Dassault is saying that SCAF will only see service from 2040 – and Airbus is saying 2042 – so if there’s this all-singing hypersonic fighter that could arrive only two to three years after SCAF/NGF enters service, why are you even bothering with SCAF NGF?

Onera says that it has wind-tunnel tested models for Espadon, scoping the art of the possible, and that key technology areas have been formally assessed.
Onera is looking at Mach 3–4 for the Espadon fighter [Author: isn’t hypersonic above Mach 5 ...?].

Yet another sign that France is giving up on SCAF, and looking for a Franco-French programme(s), likely then trying to get the current Rafale base to sign up.



About the author: Francis Tusa is a defence journalist of over 35 years' experience. Starting at the Royal United Services Institute for Defence Studies, he branched out as a freelance writer and now publishes the Defence Analysis monthly (Inquiries at subscriptions@defenceanalysis.com)

Tim Robinson from RAeS does point out that the Espadon is more about understanding m5+ flight.
 
Yes, Hypersonic is approximately Mach 5 and up. Also, if it's Hypersonic, it isn't a fighter. Maybe an interceptor, but it's going to have the turning radius the size of multiple European countries.
 
Well, for sure FCAS will be an Aircraft with a big hole in the middle: the one needed to go around Dassault bilateral commitment.

Making it a VTOL might then be a clever idea.
 
Well, things looks like France will have to do it alone - again, like Rafale. Germany has become too much a... complicated partner. Unless the Belgians and Spanish wants to help paying the bill... but there are strong chances they just buy a few F-35s (for Belgium - crap, already done) or a mix of "more Typhoon" and "no other choice than F-35Bs to replace those AV-8Bs".
Well France did the Rafale alone, should be able to do it again... frack, maybe we should get the max out of M88 one last time and go the Boramae way. Stealth, but medium size to keep costs at a reasonable level.
Boramae is proof that a "compact F-22" (let's call it that way) can be done, around medium-size turbofans (F414 is pretty close from M88).
Plus going the Boramae size and weight would help the Aéronavale near the end of the CdG life while keeping PANG size and cost to a slightly less unrealistic levels (because that thing will be eye watering expensive, I told you - 75 000 tons nuclear JFK with EMALS is no tug boat).
 
i just imagine that FCAS will be without france but together with GCAP on some components
 
Archibald is right in this point.

This project becomes same mess als Jäger-90.
Too many partners with conflicting demands and political meddling to get them.
and it will end like Jäger-90:
France bail out and build their Post Rafale Fighter that match their need.
While Germany & co end up with over prised and faulty toy by Airbus...
 
Last edited:
Archibald is right in this point.

This project becomes same mess als Jäger-90.
Too many partners with conflicting demands and political meddling to get them.
and it will end like Jäger-90:
France bail out and build their Post Rafale Fighter that match their need.
While Germany & co end up with over prised and faulty toy by Airbus...
I dont think Eurofighter was a overprised faulty toy but we will see whats Happening. I think france won't bail out now and instead (if it does) would do it later after most of the research was done.
 
and it will end like Jäger-90:
France bail out and build their Post Rafale Fighter that match their need.
While Germany & co end up with over prised and faulty toy by Airbus...
Will also be interesting to see what this means for EuroMALE, that useless, overengineered, obsolete-before-even-being-built piece of junk.

I assume EuroMALE would not survive a breakup as cancellation would free up funds for the UCAS / loyal wingman that France wants to build?
 
I assume EuroMALE would not survive a breakup as cancellation would free up funds for the UCAS / loyal wingman that France wants to build?
Well France already bought Reaper anyway... I mean a fleet of 18 is quite sizeable compared to other operators

I'm not sure what if anything is obsolete about EuroMALE, the main issue is simply the mahoosive costs compared to alternatives that are available now.
 
Yes, Hypersonic is approximately Mach 5 and up. Also, if it's Hypersonic, it isn't a fighter. Maybe an interceptor, but it's going to have the turning radius the size of multiple European countries.
I'm leaning towards a striker. You can get some pretty absurd range out of an SRAM when launched at 80k and Mach 3. Even more absurd at Mach 5 and 100k.
 
There could be an element of pragmatic salesmanship going on here.
After all Rafale is selling and now there is the Indian deal to assist with AMCA off the back of the Rafale sales effort. So there is obviously a push to sell more Rafales to make money now - SCAF however you slice it mean money in 20 years time - not today.

In addition there is nothing yet to show for SCAF, another generic fibreglass model means feck all. BAE has only just become excited to show off GCAP now its got an ejection seat sled and intake layout to show off.

Also UCAVs and loyal wingmen for Rafale is not the same thing as those items for SCAF, its not likely that all the systems architecture would be retrofitted into Rafale for example and "from 2030" is still a full decade ahead of SCAF's planned IOC. So I think that Francis Tusa is being a little disingenuous here to stir the pot.

We all know there are severe strains within the partners of SCAF (interestingly Tusa doesn't tell us in the article if the Airbus' was packed with SCAF memorabilia). It could be France doing a stealth mode takeover, it could be Dassault thinks it can produce SCAF just after 2030 to match (or even beat) GCAP's 5 year IOC lead (and thus 5 year export lead). It could be the whole hypersonic doo-dad is being used as a smokescreen (even since June last year some French defence jurnos as quoted in this thread were talking about Dassault exo-atmospheric space fighters!).
It is clear that things are still rocky and not getting any better.
 
We all know there are severe strains within the partners of SCAF (interestingly Tusa doesn't tell us in the article if the Airbus' was packed with SCAF memorabilia)

It wasn't...and neither was their social media. One brief video telling us nothing new and a mention of Remote Carriers on a video about 20 years of Barracuda. But...to be fair to Airbus, and Airbus Defence in particular, they had a lot on the stand in general and a lot to talk about.

Also UCAVs and loyal wingmen for Rafale is not the same thing as those items for SCAF, its not likely that all the systems architecture would be retrofitted into Rafale for example and "from 2030" is still a full decade ahead of SCAF's planned IOC. So I think that Francis Tusa is being a little disingenuous here to stir the pot.

I suppose UCAV and CCA are needed to keep Rafale relevant for current sales campaigns and into the 2030's as potential new capabilities/upgrades before SCAF would be ready as otherwise potential purchasers will have other options available or shortly on the horizon that will be superior as a stand alone product. Or at the least to keep Rafale 'current' if SCAF collapses and France/Dassault have to go their own way.

But there is definitely an edge of standing on Airbus' toes....and the relentless signalling that they're not really necessary...a Dassault/French message/threat for some time....it will be interesting to see if Airbus stand their ground pragmatically or perhaps 'fight back' with some proposals of their own on Dassaults turf...2 can play at that game I guess...

It doesn't really signal a programme that is that harmonious, messaging is incredibly important...and I can't think of a time when that has led to a decent programme.
 
Last edited:
I would not like to see SCAF dead, instead France should take it and develop SCAF as their own program. They need a next generation fighter to supplement then replace Rafale.
 
Anyone know how much money that France has paid into SCAF, in comparison to say Germany and Spain? It would be interesting to find out.
 
What I dont understand is, if FCAS (as it seems) focuses on new technologies (remote carrier, cloud...) in parallel to a fighter only and not so much on future operational concepts and a future concept of operation. While the American for example make a clear argument for CCAs - creating mass, to fight China - this is very nebulous for Germany and France.
 
What I dont understand is, if FCAS (as it seems) focuses on new technologies (remote carrier, cloud...) in parallel to a fighter only and not so much on future operational concepts and a future concept of operation. While the American for example make a clear argument for CCAs - creating mass, to fight China - this is very nebulous for Germany and France.
I think that's the major problem. Define what you want to do first, then figure out how to do it. Mission statement, strategic vision, tactical needs to accomplish the strategy.
 
I wonder why they are talking about SCAF being snuffed out. On the contrary I think it would make enormous sense for France to go at it alone. There's a host of nations who have a desire to be free of US export controls, who have traditionally bought French, and due to recent geopolitical events, this list has began to expand. I think the extra burdens of having to develop a fighter alone might be more than made up with the increased export potential, as France has become the first choice supplier of aircraft for anyone who doesn't want to buy American.
 
Last edited:

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom