Lascaris

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
14 November 2008
Messages
280
Reaction score
334
So what the title says. Say that cme the armistice in 1943 the Italians are able to tow away the ship to some secure port. Or alternatively if you want things simpler Italian commandos do not scuttle the ship in April 1945 and the Germans fail to sink her on their retreat.

Either way you have come V-E day a 28,000t aircraft carrier at an advanced stage of construction lying around at Genoa. What happens to her? Do either France or the Soviets claim her as war reparations.. and does either get her? Does she get scrapped like Vittorio Veneto and Italia? If left to Italy, after the country enters NATO and Paris peace treaty limitations are ignored I'd guess the Marina would want to complete her.

In the latter case, or if she becomes French/Soviet how does a modified Aquila look like in the 1950s and how useful would she be as a carrier, on one hand she's comparable in displacement to a Centaur or Hermes but comes from a liner conversion on the other hand. And how long could she be kept in service?
 
If she remained in Italian service, would she have gotten British or American-made airplanes?
 
The Peace Treaty with Italy signed in 1947 included the following clause:-

Art 59(2)
No aircraft carrier, submarine or other submersible craft, motor torpedo boat or specialised types of assault craft shall be constructed, acquired, employed or experimented with by Italy.


So the possibility of Italy having a carrier was thought about by the Allies and rejected.
 
Ironically not too long afterwards the western allies were trying desperately to rebuild Italy's military to counter the emerging Soviet threat.
 
Even then I doubt they'd keep Aquila in service. She is, to put it kindly, rather terrible as a carrier. I'd take Graf Zeppelin over her, that's how bad she is.
 
Even then I doubt they'd keep Aquila in service. She is, to put it kindly, rather terrible as a carrier. I'd take Graf Zeppelin over her, that's how bad she is.
Good point. If the powers that be decided Italy should have a carrier, there were a bunch gathering dust that were built from the keel up as carriers and standard with the other NATO nations, As an aside, IIRC the Italian Navy briefly flew Helldivers.
 
Even then I doubt they'd keep Aquila in service. She is, to put it kindly, rather terrible as a carrier. I'd take Graf Zeppelin over her, that's how bad she is.
Good point. If the powers that be decided Italy should have a carrier, there were a bunch gathering dust that were built from the keel up as carriers and standard with the other NATO nations, As an aside, IIRC the Italian Navy briefly flew Helldivers.
It briefly flew Helldiverrs because the US had offered to provide the Marina Militare not one but two aircraft carriers as military aid in the early 1950s. One of the two was supposed to be an Independence class ship, the other I don't remember. The details were in Warship 2007, but I've lost my copy.
 
Either way you have come V-E day a 28,000t aircraft carrier at an advanced stage of construction lying around at Genoa. What happens to her? Do either France or the Soviets claim her as war reparations.. and does either get her? Does she get scrapped like Vittorio Veneto and Italia? If left to Italy, after the country enters NATO and Paris peace treaty limitations are ignored I'd guess the Marina would want to complete her.
Must admit, that I'm interested in that idea too. I'm working on the idea of AU, in which Mussolini was the first to secure dealt with Allies, and managed to get Italy out of Axis more intact - in exchange of sending Italian naval and air forces to Indian Ocean, to support British against Japanese. Of course the bulk of Italian forces would be their fast battleships, but Aquila is supposed to play a role also.
 
Interesting what if....

First of all Aquila could have played an active role just after the 8th of September 1943. Since Aquila was about 90% complete the Armistice Day it also completed the engines trials, but was without AA armament and also without the Re2001 aircrafts, furthermore with an incoplete crew.

Anyway even in such arragement the Aquila could have took the sea joining the VIII Cruiser Squad (headed by Adm. Luigi Biancheri) which left Genoa during the afternoon of 8th September, with other minor ships heading to La Maddalena in order to rejoint with the IX Battelship Division (headed by Adm. Luigi Accorretti).

Which value would add en empty aircraft carrier to Italian fleet?

Most of all it probably would concentrate all the German fire on her, leaving the big battelships of Littorio class (first of all the ill-fated Roma) time to escape or to counteract.
In a little bit more imaginative scenario Adm. Bergamini would be tempted to launch all the Re2000 onboard the Littorios (that in reality were left unused on their bridges) in order to keep away the Dornier bombers, counting on the fact that the Aquila's bridge was long enough to attempt an hookless landing for the Re2000s allowing them to be recovered after their mission.

So in this way it is relatively easy to imagine the arrival at La Valletta of the ENTIRE Italian fleet, with Rome and Adm. Bergamini still alive, headed by the Aquila with the Re2000s parked on its bridge, Adm. Cunningham would wrote "Such a view!".

Regarding the post-war aftermath, the Marina Militare really did an attempt, during early 50's, to gain a couple of U.S. carriers, if it didn't succeed was due to the Aeronautica Italiana strong opposition. In the same period Marina Militare did all its best to postpone the Aquila dismantling in order to have a sort of "B plan" (infact the ship was scrapped in La Spezia harbour during 1952-53).

In case the Marina Militare effort was successful it is likely that the Aquila would be turned into service during the second half of 50's, with U.S. radars and other systems onboard, AA armament changed and steam catapults, furthermore with an hurricane bow (probably like the one already designed for the never completed Sparviero), including the bridle retrieval horns.

Regarding the aircraft they would be for sure the S-3C Helldiver already released as ASW/bombers and probably the same F-4U7 Corsair delivered to France as fighters. while the S-55 would be the standard helicopter.

During the 60's the Aquila could have equipped with an angled deck, and with all jet aircraft complement onboard, probably the A-4G (as for Australia) fighter/bomber and the F-8E Crusader (as for France), while the S-58 would be the standard helicopter. Most likely the S-2 Tracker (already exploited by the Italian Air Force in the same period) and also the E-1 for airborne alert.

Probably the Aquila would remain in service up to the end of 80's when it would be replaced by the new, smaller and cheaper, Garibaldi with the Harrier on board (as also the Royal Navy did).

I would like to do some artwotk in future to depict such intriguing scenario....
 
Last edited:
Another element to think about: the Italian goverment could also have an alternative to the A-4G, in such case is not too hard to imagine a naval version of the light FIAT G-91, with tailhook and catapult provision, considering that the "Gina" was small enough to not request folding wings.

Maybe this could be appealing even to France where in exchange Italy could buy the Breguet Alize as ASW and Carrier on delivery.
In this turn the Dassault could remaster the Entendard as air superiority fighter...
 
Last edited:
I'd say it would end up with the French post war and end up being an aircraft transport to Indo-China....then scrapped. Not particularly romantic but there you are...
 
The French had a couple of Romani cruisers and with Aquila having the same powerplant there is a certain logic to that.

The Italian's certainly put a lot of effort into the conversion. It needed better arrester gear and catapults and safety barriers adding, but otherwise could have been a workable carrier. I think whoever gets her, a long refit in the USA is the most likely outcome to sort those issues, fit 40mm Bofors (and maybe some 76mm twins) and modern radar - though countering that the USN has surplus Independence flattops going for low prices or even a nearly new/new Majestic from Britain.
Can't see Aquila lasting much beyond the mid-60s though given the costs to run her and material condition of the hull. Tonnage and topweight margins for future growth might have been a problem for example.
 
Maybe the existence of Aquila in the postwar scenario would did lead to a better deal between Italy and France?

A common design for 70's aircraft carrier based on French VTOL experience?
Did Italy could join France on VTOL's development (rather than the bad experience with the ill-fated German VAK-191B).

Just to think about....
 
I am no naval architect, but I have doubts whether the Aquila could easily be rebuilt with an angled deck. She had already been extensively bulged for her conversion (the concrete in her bulges was partly anti-torpedo protection and partly ballast for stability). At the very least she would need re-bulging. I just think it might have been a cut too far on this old hull given how extensively gutted and rebuilt she had been. That and we don't know how good the quality of her rebuild was - on paper it was pretty comprehensive, but we don't know what bits might have been bodged up during the conversion.
 
That and we don't know how good the quality of her rebuild was - on paper it was pretty comprehensive, but we don't know what bits might have been bodged up during the conversion.
Absolutely correct.
For sure would be relatively easy to have an hurrican bow, and steam catapults, the angled deck is another affair.
Anyway here we are in a "what if zone", so dreaming is still allowed.....;)
 
I am no naval architect, but I have doubts whether the Aquila could easily be rebuilt with an angled deck. She had already been extensively bulged for her conversion (the concrete in her bulges was partly anti-torpedo protection and partly ballast for stability). At the very least she would need re-bulging. I just think it might have been a cut too far on this old hull given how extensively gutted and rebuilt she had been. That and we don't know how good the quality of her rebuild was - on paper it was pretty comprehensive, but we don't know what bits might have been bodged up during the conversion.
I think this would have been the far better catch https://stefsap.wordpress.com/2015/...aircraft-carrier-conversion-study-1200-model/
 
This is a different story.

This model, for long time was considered as preliminary study for Aquila (namely the Bozzoni UP-41 project).
After researches done by Sappino & Jabes and by adm. Cosentino, it was definitely identified as a study to convert the last Littorio, the Impero, as aircraft carrier (like the IJN Shinano).
The study was done by the Eng. Lino Campagnoli who worked as head designer for Ansaldo Genoa, probably after Regia Marina input.

The Impero's hull arrived more or less intact at the end of the war, but was dismantled shortly after.
Impero, despite Aquila, never had the chance to leave the drawing board and would not survive to WWII (unlike Aquila which actually did it) in any possible scenario.
 
This is a different story.

This model, for long time was considered as preliminary study for Aquila (namely the Bozzoni UP-41 project).
After researches done by Sappino & Jabes and by adm. Cosentino, it was definitely identified as a study to convert the last Littorio, the Impero, as aircraft carrier (like the IJN Shinano).
The study was done by the Eng. Lino Campagnoli who worked as head designer for Ansaldo Genoa, probably after Regia Marina input.

The Impero's hull arrived more or less intact at the end of the war, but was dismantled shortly after.
Impero, despite Aquila, never had the chance to leave the drawing board and would not survive to WWII (unlike Aquila which actually did it) in any possible scenario.
from what I have read she was in a condition that work could have proceeded but was broken up to keep the Soviets from making a prize claim; pity as I recall she would have had a rather large hangar.
 
How weird would it be... a Soviet carrier fleet kickstarted by Aquila: a former italian liner ! Imagine it with Yak-38 Forgers on her deck, in the 1970's...

1920px-AquilaStbdFore1b.png
 
Last edited:
How weird would it be... a Soviet carrier fleet kickstarted by Aquila: a former italian liner ! Imagine it with Yak-38 Forgers on her deck, in the 1970's...

1920px-AquilaStbdFore1b.png
Not very likely considering what happened to the Giulio Cesare/Novorossysk war prey...
In any case I don't think that Allied would allow the USSR to gain an aircraft carrier for free, even considering that they prevented Russians to get their claws over the Littorio and Vittorio Veneto, leaving them the old (and not useful) Giulio Cesare.
 
I checked that big baby fate in the FFO / FTL timeline: unfortunately it is bombed to death on June 22, 1943 and turned into a sunken, burned wreck.
 
I checked that big baby fate in the FFO / FTL timeline: unfortunately it is bombed to death on June 22, 1943 and turned into a sunken, burned wreck.
What ship do you refer?

Aquila was only damaged but never sunken or burned, it was moved from Genoa to La Spezia during 1949 and scrapped during 1953.

The Impero's hull was about 90% completed at the Armistice's time (while the entire battleship was only about 30% completed), on 20 February 1945 the hull was half-sunk and raised during 1946 while it was scrapped during 1950.
 
The starting point for this “what if” needs to be examined in more detail.

The history of the Soviet claim on the Italian fleet starts with an initial 7 Oct 1943 demand for one third of the Italian fleet. By 27 Oct 1943 Molotov advised Eden, the British Foreign Secretary, that this “demand” was for 1 battleship (they were really after a Littorio), 1 cruiser, 8 destroyers, 4 submarines and 40,000 tons of merchant shipping.

The principle of the whole Soviet claim was controversial enough in Anglo American circles but at the end of the day was met to keep Stalin on side.

But the need to placate Stalin was countered by the need to keep the Italians onside for the rest of the War. So initially the Soviet claim was met via the loan of the battleship HMS Royal Sovereign, cruiser USS Milwaukee, 9 old 4 pipe RN destroyers, 3 U & 1 S class RN subs. Merchant tonnage was also transferred by both Britain & the US.


The 1947 peace treaty awarded $100m to the USSR which was partly settled by the transfer of Italian warships. But those vessels transferred effectively related back to what had been demanded in 1943 and agreed in 1944. All that was then left to do was swap the loan ships for the Italian ships. Postwar, sorting all this out took until 1950!

So the question really is, are the Soviets sufficiently Naval air minded in Oct 1943 to “demand” Aquila, if she survived, as part of that one third or not? If they were then it seems likely that Britain & the US would have acquiesced, as they did with everything else on that Soviet wish list. But initially it would have been settled by transferring an RN or USN ship. Given the age of the other vessels transferred and the timing we might have been looking at Argus which had been laid up in the Reserve Fleet in Dec 1943 and was in use as an accommodation ship. Come 1947 she would have been swapped for Aquila.

But would the Soviets have asked for Aquila in 1943? A carrier is useless without an air group. So the Soviets would have also had to request carrier aircraft via Lend Lease, a request that may or may not have been met (not every request was). Then they would have to train a whole organisation from scratch, in the middle of a war. Or request help from Britain and/or the US again via Lend Lease. So it was not just as simple as demanding a ship.

And what use would a carrier have been to the Soviets in WW2? Soviet Naval Aviation was shore based. And from there was able to control the seas that needed controlled - Arctic Ocean, Black Sea and eventually the Baltic.

On balance I find the whole idea of a 1943/44 demand highly unlikely. That,for me, then rules out a 1947 acquisition as part of the peace treaty.



But, for the moment let’s consider what the Soviets would learn from acquiring Aquila in 1947?

Technically there was little to learn, other than perhaps how not to build a carrier.

In May 1945 they had captured the badly wrecked Graf Zeppelin, sunk in shallow waters at Stettin. In Aug/Sept 1945 they had raised her from the bottom. Although assigned as Category C by the Tripartite Naval Commission in 1945 (ships to be scrapped or otherwise destroyed) it was 17 Aug 1947 before she was towed out into the Baltic to be sunk where she was found in 2006. That was plenty of time to study her in detail. She was only sunk after the Soviets used her for weapons trials to test the effectiveness of their weapons against carriers, a type of ship they had never had to encounter previously.

Aquila was converted after much consultation with the Germans in 1941/42. So she used the same catapults and arrester gear as Graf Zeppelin. German launch procedures, although never tested, were time consuming and cumbersome. The German contribution also resulted in Italian design modifications to the lifts, hangar, electrical ring main and fire control system.

And if they get the ship where does the air group come from? By mid-1947 east-west relations are going downhill. Without that the Soviets are years away from generating a Naval Aviation capability.

If Aquila did survive to enter Allied hands, I think the very most that could be expected would be to do as little work as possible to her to allow her use as an aircraft transport. A similar approach as taken with the French Bearn. By the end of 1943 the US had lost interest in modernising the French ships and AFAIK never touched an Italian one. Maybe the Italians could do the work at Taranto as they did for other Allied warships.

As for subsequent post-war use, and with Italy ruled out by the peace treaty, then France is the most likely candidate to acquire her, if indeed she survives the gas axe. So she would serve alongside Dixmude (ex Biter) and Arromanches (ex Colossus). But I really don’t see her surviving into the 1960s with the French having laid down Clemenceau & Foch 1955-57.

As for Impero, according to Bagnasco & de Toro, she had been partially stripped of materials useful to the German war effort in 1944. At the end of April 1945 she was sunk in shallow water in Trieste harbour by 3 large explosive charges placed along her length. In July 1946 she was raised just sufficiently to allow her to be towed to the Bay of Muggia where she was again left to settle on the bottom. This was to clear Trieste harbour for merchant shipping and to prevent the Yugoslavs, who had staked a claim on her, from attempting to capture her. She was stricken from the Italian naval register on 27 March 1947.

There were then concerns about what would happen to her, as politically the situation concerning Trieste was not settled. So in Aug/Sept 1947 following British Admiralty pressure she was raised again and towed to Venice where she was again settled on the bottom and moored to stop her drifting in the current. She was again raised in early 1949 to make the short trip to the breakers yard.

I very much doubt that there was anything about her in 1947 that would have made reconstruction as a carrier in any way worth while economically.
 
Even then I doubt they'd keep Aquila in service. She is, to put it kindly, rather terrible as a carrier. I'd take Graf Zeppelin over her, that's how bad she is.
Good point. If the powers that be decided Italy should have a carrier, there were a bunch gathering dust that were built from the keel up as carriers and standard with the other NATO nations, As an aside, IIRC the Italian Navy briefly flew Helldivers.
It briefly flew Helldiverrs because the US had offered to provide the Marina Militare not one but two aircraft carriers as military aid in the early 1950s. One of the two was supposed to be an Independence class ship, the other I don't remember. The details were in Warship 2007, but I've lost my copy.
The US offer was made after the restrictions imposed by the peace treaty were lifted in Dec 1951, but discussions seem to have been underway from 1950 following the formation of NATO in 1949 with Italy as a founding member. An Independence class CVL and a Commencement Bay class CVE, both unnamed, were planned to replace the battleship Cesare and cruiser Duca d’Aosta passed to the Soviets.

The Helldivers began to arrive in Dec 1952. But the political battle between the services over who should control service aircraft rumbled on until March 1955. The final agreed solution was no carriers or fixed wing aircraft for the navy but they could obtain helicopters.
 
You have a 28,000t aircraft carrier, converted from a non-CV hull, that was intended to operate mid-war prop aircraft. I sense serious issues with getting her to operate jets in the long run. IMHO if she has any future in an alternative timeline, it's one in which the post-war Regia Marina is permitted to operate carriers without any political hassle and completes Aquila as a training carrier on which the Navy pilots learn their basics.
 
You have a 28,000t aircraft carrier, converted from a non-CV hull, that was intended to operate mid-war prop aircraft. I sense serious issues with getting her to operate jets in the long run. IMHO if she has any future in an alternative timeline, it's one in which the post-war Regia Marina is permitted to operate carriers without any political hassle and completes Aquila as a training carrier on which the Navy pilots learn their basics.
Don't forget the Aquila had the German laujnch recovery system which was incompatible with NATOs.
 
Don't forget the Aquila had the German laujnch recovery system which was incompatible with NATOs
Yes but the DEMAG catapults and recovery system replacement was not so difficult to imagine.
As wrote in one of my previous post, I've pointed out that the very minimal modifications to allow Aquila entering in service in mid 50's should be:

- Hurrycane bow (like the one already designed by Ansaldo for Sparviero)
- Steam catapults (replacing the DEMAG ones)
- New arrest cables (replacing the German ones)
- U.S. Electronics (like the USS Honet for instance)
- New A.A. armament (replacing the Ansaldo's one)

As you may see isn't so impossible to achieve such modification even in a transformed hull like Aquila was....
 
You have a 28,000t aircraft carrier, converted from a non-CV hull, that was intended to operate mid-war prop aircraft. I sense serious issues with getting her to operate jets in the long run. IMHO if she has any future in an alternative timeline, it's one in which the post-war Regia Marina is permitted to operate carriers without any political hassle and completes Aquila as a training carrier on which the Navy pilots learn their basics.
Don't forget the Aquila had the German laujnch recovery system which was incompatible with NATOs.
I would imagine that would be taken out and replaced as part of the ship being completed and made fit for service.
 

Please donate to support the forum.

Back
Top Bottom