Much like the Air projects, i felt we could use a similar version for cannon, missiles and other weapons that never got to be produced or even to the prototype stage (Mockups or drawings).
My first entry is going to be the "langosta" discardable mortar, this was a project taken forward by a private company (TENSA) during the 80s to equip a single soldier with a short range easy to use small mortar. Although this system never made it to production, several test units were purchased by both Argentine and Peruvian armies.
The system itself was made from a glass fiber 51mm tube, the grenades themselves and the 4 tube ammo carrier (pic).
Two for the price of one !!
First another look at the Langosta and compared to a regular soldier (note the thickness of the tube)
And another, this time more un-orthodox approach for a "pocket mortar", this time in the form of a recoilless system.
According to the source, this was only called "Experimental recoilless mortar type E.C.1"
Well much like the Tabano missile, it was unknown until for some reason small pieces of their existence came around, in this case for some images of the torpedo to the Historical Archive from Punta Alta, the pictures depicted workers, Navy personnel and the "elephant in the room" the unusually large torpedo.
The Torpedo is seen as further development of the Italian LB1 guided torpedo of WW2 by Ing.Lorenzelli, the project dating back to its design in 1940 was presented to italian Authorities and approved for development. After being transferred to Naples, he designed and created a system under the name LBS, it consisted in a series of stabilizers that allowed the immersion of a fixed antenna on a torpedo without hurting its stability. This was also presented to Authorities and it was named Tele-Guided Torpedo "Hidropodo", for some it was called "a submarine missile", with a supposed range of 200km and a max speed of 40Knots (range and speed could be estimated). The development of this weapon continued in secret until the capitulation of Italy when all regarding the LB1 was handed to the Germans and by the end of the war when it was handed to American forces. After the war Lorenzelli would teach in Turin's university and work in the construction industry.
By 1948 He travelled to Argentina for a contract to rebuild the San Juan theater (destroyed by an earthquake in 1944). Although the deal never materialized, he stayed in Argentina as the work opportunities there "seemed a lot better for him". He would create a firm that would focus on Civil engineering works that would operate normally in works regarding construction, in 1951 he was called by Government authorities regarding his involvement with the LB1, after an interview, he was contracted and sent to Puerto Belgrano to develop a similar weapon to the one he did in Italy.
Paired withe Cpt. Fernandez (also an engineer), both started working in a program designated LOFER (LO for LOrenzelli and FER for FERnandez). The first drawings of the torpedo were done in Buenos Aires, in the Ministry of Technical works, by a team of Naval Engineers and the italian engineer. Lorenzelli given fake IDs to keep a low profile when doing trips back to europe (to avoid him being captured for his work)
Concept Art of the LB.2
The torpedo made to be made in Argentina was designated LB2, it was a continuation of the works made in Italy with changes and adjustments. Made for defensive operations, this torpedo was thought for repealing naval landings or other operations that could be happening near the coastline.
After the design process finished, the team began working in the Puerto Belgrano Naval Arsenal, a larger team was assembled for the construction of the prototype, the initial example was going to use an Aeronautical prototype, that severely changed the size as the engine's diameter was larger than what it was stipulated (changing its performance drastically).
Later the engine was changed to a 250hp Ford taken from a truck, this was a more efficient solution for the torpedo than the aircraft engine. Tests done in water were controlled from the LP-84 Higgins patrol boat, with the radio command on board and the torpedo following the vessel from behind. The torpedo had a system to avoid loosing stability and an antenna that also worked expelling gases and taking air.
After 3 years of tests and works, the torpedo was submitted to its first proper evaluation in march/may of 1954, a commission of the Navy involving engineers and officers were sent o precede the tests. The tests showed some potential, although the results weren't completely satisfactory for the Navy. Following the 1955 revolution, the LOFER program would continue, although changes in the team were done for political reasons, with involvement from the CNEA (National Atomic Energy Commission) and the departing of Ing. Fernandez.
The Final test was done the 20 of May 1958, with almost all major issued corrected by this point, and finishing the prototype stage after being Tele-guided for almost 50km on open seas in Puerto Rosales and then being guided back for its recovery. The machine was ready for the prototype stage, but it never reached it for unknown reasons (one could stipulate, lack of interest or simply lack of funds).
The team behind the LOFER program was transferred from the CNEA to the Naval Secretary, with them working on this type of machines during the 60s and on but this time the technology of the LB2 was used in the production of Naval targets for the navy.
Source: The Archive Magazine- LOFER Mission
A Scale model of the LB2
I have to say, this was a really strange program...
(Sorry if my translation isn't the best or isn't as complete, its meant to give an idea of what this machine was)
Well much like the Tabano missile, it was unknown until for some reason small pieces of their existence came around, in this case for some images of the torpedo to the Historical Archive from Punta Alta, the pictures depicted workers, Navy personnel and the "elephant in the room" the unusually large torpedo.
The Torpedo is seen as further development of the Italian LB1 guided torpedo of WW2 by Ing.Lorenzelli, the project dating back to its design in 1940 was presented to italian Authorities and approved for development. After being transferred to Naples, he designed and created a system under the name LBS, it consisted in a series of stabilizers that allowed the immersion of a fixed antenna on a torpedo without hurting its stability. This was also presented to Authorities and it was named Tele-Guided Torpedo "Hidropodo", for some it was called "a submarine missile", with a supposed range of 200km and a max speed of 40Knots (range and speed could be estimated). The development of this weapon continued in secret until the capitulation of Italy when all regarding the LB1 was handed to the Germans and by the end of the war when it was handed to American forces. After the war Lorenzelli would teach in Turin's university and work in the construction industry.
Extremely interesting! Must admit, I never head about Italian LB1 guided torpedo project. How it is written on Italian, may I ask? Could you recommend some sources to read about it?
After the design process finished, the team began working in the Puerto Belgrano Naval Arsenal, a larger team was assembled for the construction of the prototype, the initial example was going to use an Aeronautical prototype, that severely changed the size as the engine's diameter was larger than what it was stipulated (changing its performance drastically).
Later the engine was changed to a 250hp Ford taken from a truck, this was a more efficient solution for the torpedo than the aircraft engine. Tests done in water were controlled from the LP-84 Higgins patrol boat, with the radio command on board and the torpedo following the vessel from behind. The torpedo had a system to avoid loosing stability and an antenna that also worked expelling gases and taking air.
Extremely interesting! Must admit, I never head about Italian LB1 guided torpedo project. How it is written on Italian, may I ask? Could you recommend some sources to read about it?
I barely heard about the LB1 or seen a pic of it, the only reason i got to know about the LOFER was from word of mouth, and then but the Archive magazine. Thats available on issu here: revista_el_archivo_33
Something i would like to point out, is that this is like Tabano but for the Navy, an ambitious project that although it didn't saw production, it kinda "paved the way" for the Naval Arsenal to have a proper laboratory or installations that are suitable for developments of this kind. As for the stated 400km range...ehhh...my best could fall in the 50/70ish Km range, but again, not much is well known of this.
I barely heard about the LB1 or seen a pic of it, the only reason i got to know about the LOFER was from word of mouth, and then but the Archive magazine. Thats available on issu here: revista_el_archivo_33
Something i would like to point out, is that this is like Tabano but for the Navy, an ambitious project that although it didn't saw production, it kinda "paved the way" for the Naval Arsenal to have a proper laboratory or installations that are suitable for developments of this kind. As for the stated 400km range...ehhh...my best could fall in the 50/70ish Km range, but again, not much is well known of this.
Yep, the ambitious large-scale projects tend to do that) About range - well, it mainly depend on how much fuel could be carried, and how much motor consumed.
Yep, the ambitious large-scale projects tend to do that) About range - well, it mainly depend on how much fuel could be carried, and how much motor consumed.
Yep, guided from bunkers to protect the coast from a naval landing or a bombardment, a pretty interesting concept for the time, idk how effective it could have been in combat, but i guess a bunch of those could be a nasty surprise if not detected.
Yep, guided from bunkers to protect the coast from a naval landing or a bombardment, a pretty interesting concept for the time, idk how effective it could have been in combat, but i guess a bunch of those could be a nasty surprise if not detected.
Yep, guided from bunkers to protect the coast from a naval landing or a bombardment, a pretty interesting concept for the time, idk how effective it could have been in combat, but i guess a bunch of those could be a nasty surprise if not detected.
Yep, guided from bunkers to protect the coast from a naval landing or a bombardment, a pretty interesting concept for the time, idk how effective it could have been in combat, but i guess a bunch of those could be a nasty surprise if not detected.
For effectiveness, we can remember the sinking of heavy cruiser KM Blücher in Oslofjord on 1940-04-09.
And that coastal-battery torpedo wasn't even guided.
For effectiveness, we can remember the sinking of heavy cruiser KM Blücher in Oslofjord on 1940-04-09.
And that coastal-battery torpedo wasn't even guided.
This weapon is a bit different; its supposed to hit enemy ships on large distances. I'm puzzled, how coastal bunker dozens of miles away would track the torpedo accurately enough?
For effectiveness, we can remember the sinking of heavy cruiser KM Blücher in Oslofjord on 1940-04-09.
And that coastal-battery torpedo wasn't even guided.
This weapon is a bit different; its supposed to hit enemy ships on large distances. I'm puzzled, how coastal bunker dozens of miles away would track the torpedo accurately enough?
Well, I imagine that’s something like a “plus” to use it in other situations, not just from land, remember that in trials it just made 50km, while on initial tests it was something around 10km. I’ll say it depends, after all it’s main idea it’s to stop naval landings…50km for that is a bit enough right ?
For effectiveness, we can remember the sinking of heavy cruiser KM Blücher in Oslofjord on 1940-04-09.
And that coastal-battery torpedo wasn't even guided.
This weapon is a bit different; its supposed to hit enemy ships on large distances. I'm puzzled, how coastal bunker dozens of miles away would track the torpedo accurately enough?
Fixed site locations are inherently accurate. Paired up, they can triangulate distant targets with unnerving precision.
But there is the sensor question, and that is probably what killed this project.
Though even if a target is tracked by aircraft, if that aircraft is accurately fixed, then target location can still be very accurate.
That's exactly the problem. I assume, Argentineans wanted to use some kind of radio transponder beacon to track the torpedo. Most likely, the return signal of the beacon was supposed to encode information about torpedo heading (taken from gyrocompass). Still, aiming it without a controller craft nearby would be... tricky.
This project is a new one for me, never heard of this before.
It was certainly ambitious but perhaps not too outlandish given the history of shore-controlled torpedoes since the late 19th century. The guidance problems and the fact this thing is so large, are the main drawbacks, but its an interesting solution to the coastal defence problem (or as a cynic might say, an interesting way for an Italian expat to get a job and earn a living!).
The main problem with radio controlled torpedoes (why they did nor actually become popular) is that you need to somehow knew their heading to aim them. Its not enough to merely know, where the torpedo is; it's important to know, how exactly it is heading at this moment. XIX century wire-guided torpedoes - like Lay's one, for example - carried two masts (on bow and on stern) with lights of different colors. The relative position of the lights allowed operator to understood, how torpedo is oriented and where exactly it is going.
On tests the LB2 had this large antena that helped its guidance, its said that the final production example was not going to have such a thing (or at least a smaller one, in the magazine there is a better pic).
The guidance problems and the fact this thing is so large, are the main drawbacks, but its an interesting solution to the coastal defence problem (or as a cynic might say, an interesting way for an Italian expat to get a job and earn a living!).
It certainly had an appealing (at least for the Personnel of the Argentine Navy) i wonder if done a few years later and with more advanced tech it would have been quite a dangerous weapon. As for Lorenzelli, he kinda wanted to start a new life with construction..but i guess he couldn't escape his past..
There is an alternative way to track this torpedo, surface-search radars of the time could spot submarine periscopes, so there is no reason why the mast could not be tracked from shore with radar, even if you might need to add a small reflector to boost the return signal (although of course the enemy could then spot the mast on their radar and take appropriate action too).
There is an alternative way to track this torpedo, surface-search radars of the time could spot submarine periscopes, so there is no reason why the mast could not be tracked from shore with radar, even if you might need to add a small reflector to boost the return signal (although of course the enemy could then spot the mast on their radar and take appropriate action too).
Today in things that make no sense and nobody asked for, a full auto hi power chambered in 7.63x21 Mannlicher...yeah the cartridge from 1916.
There is an article around about it, where there was some project for a Full auto pistol and since the cartridge was largely available, they just..made that (supposedly they had to lower the fire rate, as it was uncontrollable in its first tests)
For effectiveness, we can remember the sinking of heavy cruiser KM Blücher in Oslofjord on 1940-04-09.
And that coastal-battery torpedo wasn't even guided.
This weapon is a bit different; its supposed to hit enemy ships on large distances. I'm puzzled, how coastal bunker dozens of miles away would track the torpedo accurately enough?
There's the example from WWI, where the Germans on the Belgian coast were using wire-guided motorboats to attack British bombardment forces, and IIRC in at least some cases used aircraft overhead to relay corrections to the guidance operators based on what they were seeing.
The whole thing is an interesting parallel to the Merlin-powered, air-dropped by Lancaster Helmover guided torpedo that the UK was working on during WWII, guidance for that was radio-control from the aircraft.
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