Alternate aircraft in Iran Iraq war

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Monk78

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Let’s say Iran and Iraq are BOTH heavily sanctioned and cannot operate existing types or unable to procure sophisticated aircraft and have to rely on inferior types as parts for existing modern fleet are used up.
By 1983
Iran has primarily mirage V , F-5A , A-4 and F-8 operational
Iraq has to use mig-17 , su-15 , hunter and MiG-21PF/ F-7

So no F-4 /5E/14 and no MiG-23/25/29 and no mirage F1 for Iraq
How will the air war look like ?
 
If the Iranians are sanctioned, where the hell are they getting Crusaders and Skyhawks? To say nothing of Mirage Vs, which are out of production and Israel is not handing over to Iran of all countries. Frankly, the Iranians were sanctioned already IOTL, so they'd just stick to their existing planes: F-5s, F-4s, and F-14s, and try to source parts as best they can.

As far as Iraq, who's in on the sanctions? They started out with a mix of MiG-21, MiG-23, Su-20, and Su-7 aircraft, and like the Iranians are likely to stick with those types as far as they can. Certainly the Su-15 isn't on the table as a PVO-only design the Soviets never exported.
 
Before the Islamic Revolution, there was no reason for Iran to be under embargo. Imperial Iran was a major ally of the USA at the time.

It seems that at some point in the war (1980s), the Israelis had wanted to smuggle Skyhawks to Iran, but this didn't happen in the face of American pressure.
Note : Israel discreetly supported Iran during the conflict, as this helped to weaken Iraq.
 
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Mirage 4000s ! For Iraq. Probably a much better bargain than MiG-25s, when facing Tomcats.
 
I always thought Su-15 TM was underrated. Its literally a beefed up MiG-21 but with a proper radar and big missiles. A two-seater could have been a poor man's F-4.

Iraqi and Iran with those fleet makeups still run into a stalemate. So you literally have much the same results in the air.
 
CV12Hornet said:
If the Iranians are sanctioned, where the hell are they getting Crusaders and Skyhawks? To say nothing of Mirage Vs, which are out of production and Israel is not handing over to Iran of all countries. Frankly, the Iranians were sanctioned already IOTL, so they'd just stick to their existing planes: F-5s, F-4s, and F-14s, and try to source parts as best they can.

As far as Iraq, who's in on the sanctions? They started out with a mix of MiG-21, MiG-23, Su-20, and Su-7 aircraft, and like the Iranians are likely to stick with those types as far as they can. Certainly the Su-15 isn't on the table as a PVO-only design the Soviets never exported.
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Just because they’re sanctioned that does not mean they can get things off the black market
Maybe old USN F-8 refurbished sold through Greece or Filipinos
A-4 from Brazil and Israel
In OTL Israel provided weapons to Iran because it was fighting another of its enemies

Su15 is inferior to the MiG 23 so as they are retired from the PVO by early 80s , modified versions can easily be exported if there is no other option for the Iraqis
 
F.L. said:
Before the Islamic Revolution, there was no reason for Iran to be under embargo. Imperial Iran was a major ally of the USA at the time.

It seems that at some point in the war, the Israelis had wanted to smuggle Skyhawks to Iran, but this didn't happen in the face of American pressure.
Note : Israel discreetly supported Iran during the conflict, as this helped to weaken Iraq.
Click to expand...
Discreetly i’m sure the Americans don’t want Iran to completely fold against the Iraqis either
 
F.L. said:
Before the Islamic Revolution, there was no reason for Iran to be under embargo. Imperial Iran was a major ally of the USA at the time.

It seems that at some point in the war, the Israelis had wanted to smuggle Skyhawks to Iran, but this didn't happen in the face of American pressure.
Note : Israel discreetly supported Iran during the conflict, as this helped to weaken Iraq.
Click to expand...
by 1983 so clearly after revolution
Ostentatiously all big powers are in on the sanctions
 
MadRat said:
I always thought Su-15 TM was underrated. Its literally a beefed up MiG-21 but with a proper radar and big missiles. A two-seater could have been a poor man's F-4.

Iraqi and Iran with those fleet makeups still run into a stalemate. So you literally have much the same results in the air.
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I agree !
They’re definitely will be a stalemate, however certain operations that work conducted in OTL may not be possible LIKE
Number one less efficient anti-shipping strikes
Number two less deep interdiction and offensive counter air
Number three air to air combat would be largely inconclusive
 
Monk78 said:
Just because they’re sanctioned that does not mean they can get things off the black market
Maybe old USN F-8 refurbished sold through Greece or Filipinos
A-4 from Brazil and Israel
In OTL Israel provided weapons to Iran because it was fighting another of its enemies
Click to expand...
You're not getting airplanes off the black market. Parts and weapons, sure, but not planes. Even Israel wouldn't have been able to get away with that, entire planes are too visible.

Also, the basic errors in this post are not giving me any more confidence in the scenario. Greece never operated Crusaders, while Brazil didn't get Skyhawks until 1997.

Monk78 said:
Su15 is inferior to the MiG 23 so as they are retired from the PVO by early 80s , modified versions can easily be exported if there is no other option for the Iraqis
Click to expand...
The Su-15 remained a significant part of the PVO's strength clear the fall of the USSR, and bluntly, a Su-15 modified for export (i.e. with the sensitive parts removed) is no better than just the MiG-21 and arguably worse, given one of the sensitive bits of kit is almost certainly going to be the Taifun radar that's the entire point of the plane.

And in any case, if the Soviets are willing to supply Flagons the Iraqis can still get their hands on Floggers and would prefer to do so on logistical and capability grounds.
 
I don't understand the point of this one ?
 
CV12Hornet said:
You're not getting airplanes off the black market. Parts and weapons, sure, but not planes. Even Israel wouldn't have been able to get away with that, entire planes are too visible.

Also, the basic errors in this post are not giving me any more confidence in the scenario. Greece never operated Crusaders, while Brazil didn't get Skyhawks until 1997.


The Su-15 remained a significant part of the PVO's strength clear the fall of the USSR, and bluntly, a Su-15 modified for export (i.e. with the sensitive parts removed) is no better than just the MiG-21 and arguably worse, given one of the sensitive bits of kit is almost certainly going to be the Taifun radar that's the entire point of the plane.

And in any case, if the Soviets are willing to supply Flagons the Iraqis can still get their hands on Floggers and would prefer to do so on logistical and capability grounds.
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only 300 su15 remain by 1983 out 800+ in just 1980
Being rapidly replaced
What’s so sensitive about the taifun radar ? If mig23ML and mig25PD can be exported why not su15TM? Provided customer wants them
 
Monk78 said:
only 300 su15 remain by 1983 out 800+ in just 1980
Being rapidly replaced
What’s so sensitive about the taifun radar ? If mig23ML and mig25PD can be exported why not su15TM? Provided customer wants them
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I'm gonna need a source on Flagon numbers, because it conflicts with what I know.

Export customers did not get stock MLs. Based on the MF the Soviets almost certainly left features off the Sapfir, among other downgrades. Foxbat exports, meanwhile, only took place after Belenko's defection made many of the security concerns a moot point.
 
"What if Iran had F-8s and A-4s and Iraq had Su-15s during the Iran-Iraq war"

As far as I can see this a wish-fulfillment fantasy scenario, like previous posts by @Monk78. Not sure this discussion is really on-topic for this forum.

Su-15 is not a bigger MiG-21. Its less agile by far. It doesn't even have a proper gunsight or HUD and the only cannon is podded. F-8 would outclass it in close combat. Su-15's AAMs are bomber-killers, probably pretty useless against fighters, so not sure that evens things up.

Aside from all that, PVO equipment wasn't necessarily compatible with VVS equipment. They used different radar frequencies, some radios and datalinks were different, etc. The MiG-23 was built in a specific version for the PVO. So ex-PVO Su-15s might not slot into the existing Iraqi ground networks as easily as you think.
 
CV12Hornet said:
I'm gonna need a source on Flagon numbers, because it conflicts with what I know.

Export customers did not get stock MLs. Based on the MF the Soviets almost certainly left features off the Sapfir, among other downgrades. Foxbat exports, meanwhile, only took place after Belenko's defection made many of the security concerns a moot point.
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Belenko defected with a P
Exports after that were PD and maybe PDS ( better and upgraded versions )
What is your source that the ML exported where not stock , I’m happy to be corrected
Some specially built MLD we exported to Bulgaria and Libya but I have not come across the source that differentiates the ML and MLA exports if you have one please share

My source for flagon numbers is IISS military balance
 
overscan (PaulMM) said:
"What if Iran had F-8s and A-4s and Iraq had Su-15s during the Iran-Iraq war"

As far as I can see this a wish-fulfillment fantasy scenario, like previous posts by @Monk78. Not sure this discussion is really on-topic for this forum.

Su-15 is not a bigger MiG-21. Its less agile by far. It doesn't even have a proper gunsight or HUD and the only cannon is podded. F-8 would outclass it in close combat. Su-15's AAMs are bomber-killers, probably pretty useless against fighters, so not sure that evens things up.

Aside from all that, PVO equipment wasn't necessarily compatible with VVS equipment. They used different radar frequencies, some radios and datalinks were different, etc. The MiG-23 was built in a specific version for the PVO. So ex-PVO Su-15s might not slot into the existing Iraqi ground networks as easily as you think.
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I’m not saying it would be without changes but that’s nothing new for Iraqis
They had their mig21 carry magics and mig23B NATO standard cluster bombs
What kind of modifications do you think will be needed for PVO SU15 to make them compatible with the IADS of Iraq ?
 
overscan (PaulMM) said:
"What if Iran had F-8s and A-4s and Iraq had Su-15s during the Iran-Iraq war"

As far as I can see this a wish-fulfillment fantasy scenario, like previous posts by @Monk78. Not sure this discussion is really on-topic for this forum.

Su-15 is not a bigger MiG-21. Its less agile by far. It doesn't even have a proper gunsight or HUD and the only cannon is podded. F-8 would outclass it in close combat. Su-15's AAMs are bomber-killers, probably pretty useless against fighters, so not sure that evens things up.

Aside from all that, PVO equipment wasn't necessarily compatible with VVS equipment. They used different radar frequencies, some radios and datalinks were different, etc. The MiG-23 was built in a specific version for the PVO. So ex-PVO Su-15s might not slot into the existing Iraqi ground networks as easily as you think.
Click to expand...
I’m not saying it would be without changes but that’s nothing new for Iraqis
They had their mig21 carry magics and mig23B NATO standard cluster bombs
What kind of modifications do you think will be needed for PVO SU15 to make them compatible with the IADS of Iraq
 
The PVO was expected to be the cream of the crop and had a constant spotlight on it. International incidents over Soviet territory tended to center around the PVO. PVO had much greater pressure never to fail, and any incident of failure was a career ender. The Soviets lacked not only training, but their pilot pools were fragile numbers. PVO pilots certainly had more annual hours than the VVS. Add to the fact that leadership in the PVO never felt they ever had enough units, hence their lack of selling off equipment. In the VVS they failed a lot but never were expected to really perform like PVO. VVS pilots lacked the pressure applied over PVO pilots. VVS had constant surplus equipment due to their constant upgrades, and lacking reserve pilots and maintenance crews made selling off good for the pockets of leadership.

And where did anyone get the notion an Su-15 wasn't manueverable? It can roll with the best and has a high thrust to weight ratio comparing favorable to most fighters of that time. While it wouldn't be a dogfighter on par with an F-16, it has the energy to sustain it with any jet of that era. Give it a mix of two MRAAM and two SRAAM heatseakers with a gunpod and it was a formidable deterent. Its Achilles heel was its ground footprint. It had more than double the logistics of a MiG-21 for being only 50% larger.
 
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MadRat said:
The PVO was expected to be the cream of the crop and had a constant spotlight on it. International incidents over Soviet territory tended to center around the PVO. PVO had much greater pressure never to fail, and any incident of failure was a career ender. The Soviets lacked not only training, but their pilot pools were fragile numbers. PVO pilots certainly had more annual hours than the VVS. Add to the fact that leadership in the PVO never felt they ever had enough units, hence their lack of selling off equipment. In the VVS they failed a lot but never were expected to really perform like PVO. VVS pilots lacked the pressure applied over PVO pilots. VVS had constant surplus equipment due to their constant upgrades, and lacking reserve pilots and maintenance crews made selling off good for the pockets of leadership.

And where did anyone get the notion an Su-15 wasn't manueverable? It can roll with the best and has a high thrust to weight ratio comparing favorable to most fighters of that time. While it wouldn't be a dogfighter on par with an F-16, it has the energy to sustain it with any jet of that era. Give it a mix of two MRAAM and two SRAAM heatseakers with a gunpod and it was a formidable deterent. Its Achilles heel was its ground footprint. It had more than double the logistics of a MiG-21 for being only 50% larger.
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hushkit.net

Interview with Soviet air force Su-15 ‘Flagon’ fighter pilot: Defending the USSR

Soviet interceptor pilots faced the daunting task of defending the world’s largest nation against the combined forces of the world’s most technologically advanced nations. The awesome r…
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The pilots agree with your assessment
 

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