What if Germany in 1900 had moved closer to the United States

uk 75

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One of the tantalising alternative history threads is a Germany which moved closer to the United States in the 20th Century and imported a
patrician style of democracy along US lines. Two World Wars avoided and so much joint business and technological development spurred on.
 
Just to show how far from reality this what-if has to go read here the other what-if that nearly happened.

But it could have been different. Remove the idiotic and despotic Wilhelm and replace him with a saner Royal Head of State.
Germany and the United States then become two rather modern countries looking at the old colonial powers of Britain, Spain and France as yesterday's empires.
 
What do you about the fact that the United States and Germany were colonial powers in their right as well, though?
 
imported a
patrician style of democracy along US lines
After Bismark and Wilhelm II done everything they could to avoid it?


Two World Wars avoided and so much joint business and technological development spurred on.
Nah, its just US on the side of Germany in WWI. World Wars could not be avoided by just switching alliances a bit.
 
But it could have been different. Remove the idiotic and despotic Wilhelm and replace him with a saner Royal Head of
Who would still be concentrated on European domination, because it is what the majority of Germans wanted. Germany is already extremely nationalistic and believe that it is destined to rule Europe.


Germany and the United States then become two rather modern countries looking at the old colonial powers of Britain, Spain and France as yesterday's empires.
And Britain would start to plan a two-ocean war, with help of Japan.
 
A saner ruler in Germany.....than Wilhelm?
?
?
Would still back Austria
Would still plan for war on two fronts.
Would still fear Russia and France for entirely sane historical reasons.
Would still follow the self interest and zeitgeist of unification of all Germans.

Might just think contesting the seas with the UK isn't worth the effort.

Result....knocks the French out, before switching to yet more 'Drang nach ost' while the UK continues to make money.

America never gets involved.
 
Might just think contesting the seas with the UK isn't worth the effort.

Result....knocks the French out, before switching to yet more 'Drang nach ost' while the UK continues to make money.
No. German naval ambitions weren't just Wilhelm II personal dream. There were serious trade and industrial lobby behind them. Both pragmatic reasons (that Germany need its trade fleet protected, and need navy at least capable to handle French and Russian ones) and prestige were in play. Wilhelm was not a dictator; German internal politics played role also. So German navalism & conflict withh Britain was pretty much inevitable.
 
Might just think contesting the seas with the UK isn't worth the effort.

Result....knocks the French out, before switching to yet more 'Drang nach ost' while the UK continues to make money.
No. German naval ambitions weren't just Wilhelm II personal dream. There were serious trade and industrial lobby behind them. Both pragmatic reasons (that Germany need its trade fleet protected, and need navy at least capable to handle French and Russian ones) and prestige were in play. Wilhelm was not a dictator; German internal politics played role also. So German navalism & conflict withh Britain was pretty much inevitable.
I wouldn't call it inevitable. If Germany focuses solely on a fleet for trade protection and to match France and Russia, that is going to result in a fleet significantly smaller than the OTL High Seas Fleet. It will also have a very different mix of ships in it. More long range cruisers and destroyers and a smaller number of dreadnoughts. Which would be much less likely to trigger a naval race with the UK.
 
I wouldn't call it inevitable. If Germany focuses solely on a fleet for trade protection and to match France and Russia, that is going to result in a fleet significantly smaller than the OTL High Seas Fleet. It will also have a very different mix of ships in it. More long range cruisers and destroyers and a smaller number
Hardly. By 1904, France already have 11 more or less modern battleships, and 6 more were laid up. Russia have 10 battleships (plus three coastal ones) on Baltic, and five more were build.

Since Germany could not anticipate the destruction of Russian fleet by Japanese, and since reliability of Italy as ally was already in doubt, Germany required at least 15-20 battleships to secure its coastline safety. Which is close to 14 battleships Germany actually have in 1904 in service, and 6 more were laid up.
 
And by 1906, every last one of those ships was obsolete
But nobody knew that before. German navy was already established by series of naval laws; the 1898 law defined it as -

  • 19 battleships (12 existing; 7 additional vessels to be built),
  • 8 coastal ironclads (8 existing),
  • 12 large cruisers (10 existing, 2 additional vessels to be built),
  • 30 light cruisers (23 existing, 7 additional vessels to be built).

Which was not exactly very much - basically, Germans seek parity with France and Russia - but enough to make Britain worried.

Essentially, the German-British antagonism was inevitable. British navy was the main reason for naval buildup of France and Russia. Germany needed navy big enough to handle France and Russia. But such navy by definition became a problem for Britain. So no, Britain would not just stay aside of the conflict.
 
I think a combination of the US and Germany working together would have delivered some amazing technical, industrial and economic benefits.
The US and German colonies were dead end afterthoughts unlike Britain and France's territories which were crucial to their position in the world.
Zeppelins plying the Atlantic much earlier than in our timeline. Using Helium eventually so no Hindenburg disaster.
 
The Germans of the time were very proud of their monarchical institutions and had no compelling reason to make a libertarian revolution like the one that originated the U.S. democracy. Possibly they would have gone to vote if they had ordered it but preferred the imperial system.
 
Zeppelins plying the Atlantic much earlier than in our timeline. Using Helium eventually so no Hindenburg disaster.
In the pre WWII days helium was in very short supply. The US Navy was doing good to keep their zeppelins all filled at the same time. The refusal to supply Germany with helium was more than just a snit.
 
think a combination of the US and Germany working together would have delivered some amazing technical, industrial and economic benefits
Yeah, and a lot more people killed than in OTL 1914-1922.

The US and German colonies were dead end afterthoughts unlike Britain and France's territories which were crucial to their position in the world.
Yes, but without afterthoughts it was impossible to predict.
 
Historians, certainly those who wrote my dad's old 1950s encyclopedia and others who wrote my 1980's history books. Tended to the view that Germany was always headed towards the negative and autocratic government.
This is rooted for English historians in "the reception", were Roman law overwrote local traditional laws.
Further set along it's path by the Prussian Kings increasingly sidelining their equivalent of a parliament.
Wilhelm and Bismarck were just the tip of a very deep iceberg.

So considering this view, American alliance with Germany. Presumably rooted in German immigrant population acting as the intermediaries and drivers of such an alliance. Has a highly risky potential for the preservation of the American constitution, culture and government.
Bluntly they are not compatible positions and either the Germans or the American must change to fit this.
Otherwise it will fall apart, and quite possibly in catastrophic fashion.

Whereas for obvious reasons Britain/English government, traditions and culture are much more compatible with the American versions.
Despite conflicts of interest rooted in geography, each side finds it easier to get along with the other, build peace, consensus and alliance.
 
I read the title of this and thought some serious subduction had occurred at the Western edge of the Eurasian plate!

Politics is a slippery slope, but sticking to geopolitics, its clear that there was a divide between the influences of liberal thinking in the western states and the autocratic Teutonic tradition in Prussia, the Baltic coast and other Eastern states. In that sense Germany has been trying to achieve an equilibrium ever sense between the liberal and autocratic and still is today since unification.
Regardless of political system, geopolitically Germany is always encircled by competing great and lesser powers and so will always fear encirclement by enemies, just as Russia has always feared invasion via its long European border.

Germany's geographical location likewise made its naval fantasies untenable. Both the High Seas Fleet and the Z-Plan were fundamentally flawed because Germany lacked any direct access to the main ocean highways of the world. The British Isles stands between it and the Atlantic and the Arctic seas. Four narrow channels constrict its access. The Kriegsmarine plan to build a super harbour at Trondheim under the Z-Plan was a result of this geographical restriction and an attempt to base some of its fleet where Allied forces might not hinder their movements so greatly.

Naval arms races had been going on for a long time, as rightly pointed out both Russia and France were building to keep some pace with Britain. Germany could easily match Russia in the Baltic - although its noteworthy that German companies were equally busy designing dreadnoughts and cruisers for the Imperial Russian Navy during the 1910s.
France's Navy was less of a direct threat, any Battle would be in the southern North Sea or Channel and with it would bring the risk of British entanglement. To have any chance of securing open access to the Atlantic was to challenge Britain. Germany came the closest of any European power of doing that because her Navy was concentrated in the North Sea. France had the Med and colonies overseas across the world and Russia had three (possibly five if you count Caspian and Arctic) naval areas with fleets to man and equip around her vast territory.

Naval arms races gathered a lot of kudos in the public eye too. Just as we drool over 5th Gen fighters, so the people of 1910 drooled over dreadnoughts. To be a Great Power you needed a row of battleships, even minor powers like Greece and South American republics were acquiring them in reasonable numbers. So it was not easy for Germany, a huge producer of steel and heavy artillery, to simply sit back and not take part in the race.
A fleet of a dozen dreadnoughts would be useless, they might look impressive in harbour but in a war Britain would have at least three times that number. So the fleet had to be large enough to be credible but in a Catch-22 it made Britain worry and build more in response. This Catch-22 made the whole object unobtainable, in the end the High Seas Fleet was an expensive force to conquer the North Sea and yet never powerful enough to justify its expense.
Hitler's Z-Plan was more raiding oriented (despite some WW1 successes ultimately it proved single cruisers or even groups cannot run and hide forever) and ambitious in terms of numbers, but ten battleships (S&G, B&T, 6 Hs) and a handful of relatively weak battlecruisers was just ahead of France and Russia and their capital ship plans, was still insufficient to really guarantee the outcome of a fleet engagement with the Royal Navy. Two carriers seem more of a token force. Certainly the KM's heavy ships made life tricky for the RN, but sorties by single ships was never going to fundamentally alter the naval balance of power and no concentration of capital ships proved possible (brief opportunities were missed like May 1941 (S&G with B) or early 1944 (Norway heavy units)).

Germany's position was far more like that of Italy's, facing a naval opponent but with limited geographical access to open seas. Italy invested in some top-end capital ships but never too much to seriously overburden the capital programme and with plenty of light units and submarines. The HSF certainly had a sizable lower-end fleet but again proved unable to totally dominate the North Sea with what it had. The destroyer force in WW2 was laughably small, even before Norway in 1940 ate up a flotilla of destroyers and a heavy cruiser.
Hitler famously said "on land I am a Lion, at sea I am a coward" but that could hold equally true for most of Germany's political and military leadership since 1870. Its primary geopolitical focus was always going to be the land, it didn't really understand naval power being a young nation that had never had any naval tradition to build upon (Denmark was a more formidable naval power pre-1870).

As to UK75's original premise; I'm not sure a fully liberal democratic Germany in 1914 could have avoided war any more than the democracies of Britain and France did. There was a pious hope the international Socialist movement would stop the war, but that fizzled out under the more powerful lure of nationalism. Germany's Junker class would hardly have made a good series of Presidential candidates pre-1914. And if WW1 breaks out and Germany loses, then the 'stab in the back' theory might have discredited democracy in the eyes of the people and we might still end up with an unstable state swinging between communism and ultra nationalism in the 1920s-early 1930s.

I can't see the US being any more politically inclined towards a democratic Germany than they were towards Europe's existing Republic - France.
 
I can't see the US being any more politically inclined towards a democratic Germany than they were towards Europe's existing Republic - France.
And that's really damning considering that US had signed a treaty of alliance with France all the way back in 1778 (granted, that treaty was annulled around 1800, but it still goes to show the depth of relations between France and the US)
 
The thing is, Willy (Wilhelm the Second's 'nickname' within the cousin trio) wasn't trained one iota in politics and had few friends (when Wilhelm became Kaiser, he was considered to be yet another of what would be known as the 'year of four kaisers' body count). One of the better things he did was kick out Bismark (who was planning on instigating a socialist revolution with all that it entails).

Also remember that by the time of WW1, it wasn't London but Berlin being the economic and technological capital of Europe, thanks partially to Wilhelm's technophilic tendencies. Also, the mighty U-Boat was considered a joke and was never planned to be used by the German Navy... that is until Wilhelm decided to take a trip on one and probably went gaga on the idea and forced the U-Boats onto the navy (and, wouldn't you know, Britain would fear the U-Boats in both wars!).

In addition, having the normally isolationist US cozying up to Germany would make the Royal Navy start staying awake at night because of the fear that the USN might finally get a Congress that didn't want to starve it to death and basically outspend everyone else by orders of magnitude in terms of naval assets. Remember, the USN had a tendency to know what it needs and have a plan of action for those needs... but is constantly beset by Congress's penny-pinching.
 
Whatever the rights and wrongs of the ousting of Bismarck to state (or even suggest) that he was planning on instigating a socialist revolution is absolute counter-factual anti-historical bullshit nonsense.
Anyone putting that forward as fact clearly doesn’t know what their talking about.
 
Whatever the rights and wrongs of the ousting of Bismarck to state (or even suggest) that he was planning on instigating a socialist revolution is absolute counter-factual anti-historical bullshit nonsense.
Anyone putting that forward as fact clearly doesn’t know what their talking about.
That is something of historical record, I'm sad to say. The grand plan was, essentially, incite a socialist revolution and then crush it via the army. Willy knew this wouldn't end well and canned Bismark.
One of the better things he did was kick out Bismark (who was planning on instigating a socialist revolution with all that it entails).
Citation hugely needed
And...
One of the better things he did was kick out Bismark (who was planning on instigating a socialist revolution with all that it entails).
Citation hugely needed


Have you ever heard of the Sozialistengesetz ?

Bloody ninja'd.

Yeah, when you actually go into Bismark's mind when he started working on this 'plan' of his, you have to start asking if Bismark was going senile. Doing this is far more likely to have the military side with the revolution (much like how much of the army sided with the Reds during the Russian Civil War during the 1920s).
 
Any evidence for any of that?
Any reputable sources in support of/ in agreement with your interpretation?
 
Whatever the rights and wrongs of the ousting of Bismarck to state (or even suggest) that he was planning on instigating a socialist revolution is absolute counter-factual anti-historical bullshit nonsense.
Anyone putting that forward as fact clearly doesn’t know what their talking about.
That is something of historical record, I'm sad to say. The grand plan was, essentially, incite a socialist revolution and then crush it via the army. Willy knew this wouldn't end well and canned Bismark.
One of the better things he did was kick out Bismark (who was planning on instigating a socialist revolution with all that it entails).
Citation hugely needed
And...
One of the better things he did was kick out Bismark (who was planning on instigating a socialist revolution with all that it entails).
Citation hugely needed


Have you ever heard of the Sozialistengesetz ?

Bloody ninja'd.

Yeah, when you actually go into Bismark's mind when he started working on this 'plan' of his, you have to start asking if Bismark was going senile. Doing this is far more likely to have the military side with the revolution (much like how much of the army sided with the Reds during the Russian Civil War during the 1920s).
Yeah, that's so not what that says.
 
The US was not especially pro British either. A tilt towards Germany would have appealed to many in the States who had good reasons to dislike the British Empire.
The US had contingency plans to invade Canada right up to the eve of WW2, not because it mistrusted Canadians, because it mistrusted Britain.
If US interests had seen an advantage in working with Germany to make life harder for the British they would have done so even with the Kaiser.
The withdrawal of the USA from involvement with Europe between 1919 and 1941 was very popular.
 
Any reputable sources in support of/ in agreement with your interpretation?

Probably the same ones the "Year of Four Kaisers" and Wilhelm riding around in submarines came from.

Bismarck wasn't above using the fear of labor agitation or socialist electoral gains in attempts to keep himself in power, but to suggest he wanted a full-blown socialist revolution so he could crush it isn't really supported by anything from the period.
 
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