USN diesel sub thought exercise

[sferrin]

An extreme solution could be a catamaran hulled cargo WIG with the sub hanging from the center airfoil might have the cargo capacity necessary to pull it off, assuming the trade went the other way and you shrunk the sub some as it can be short legged. Low altitude so the detection radius is more like a surface ship, but it can quickly slip in past an ASW/AWACS gap, drop off, and egress back out. Pickup might be more problematic.

So an AIP, all it's fuel, and transport WIG (and all it's fuel and supply/training/maintenance chain) is going to be cheaper than an SSN? Really?

 

[ouroboros]

An extreme solution could be a catamaran hulled cargo WIG with the sub hanging from the center airfoil might have the cargo capacity necessary to pull it off, assuming the trade went the other way and you shrunk the sub some as it can be short legged. Low altitude so the detection radius is more like a surface ship, but it can quickly slip in past an ASW/AWACS gap, drop off, and egress back out. Pickup might be more problematic.

So an AIP, all it's fuel, and transport WIG (and all it's fuel and supply/training/maintenance chain) is going to be cheaper than an SSN? Really?

Yeah, probably not cheaper than a SSN...

 

[sferrin]

An extreme solution could be a catamaran hulled cargo WIG with the sub hanging from the center airfoil might have the cargo capacity necessary to pull it off, assuming the trade went the other way and you shrunk the sub some as it can be short legged. Low altitude so the detection radius is more like a surface ship, but it can quickly slip in past an ASW/AWACS gap, drop off, and egress back out. Pickup might be more problematic.

So an AIP, all it's fuel, and transport WIG (and all it's fuel and supply/training/maintenance chain) is going to be cheaper than an SSN? Really?

Yeah, probably not cheaper than a SSN...

AIPs are "technically sweet" but, all things considered (technical, political, operational, etc.) they're just not something the USN is going to jump on anytime soon.

 

[covert_shores]

In the context of choosing the propulsion system, what do you think about the SU/RU concept of using motherships (Yankee / Delta Stretch) to bring the smaller subs to the deployment zone to do the actual job? Or would this be too close to the current SSGN/SDV setup?

that has always been in relation to deep water covert Ocean engineering projects run by GIGI. The child subs can be quite large (up to 70-80m) but the overall configuration is very large and cannot operate in shallow water. Interesting topic but I cannot see much use for littoral SSP ops.

 

[gTg]

Most diesel subs operate from and/or around the home countries littorals. In the case of US, there is an ocean to cross before getting into any littorals of interest (in offensive ops). Mother sub would be a sneaky way of getting them there without having to use bases in other countries closer to the area of interest.
Energy saved by not having to deploy thousands of miles on their own can be spent to stay longer on station.

Are there any subs forward deployed to bases in other countries ?
Japan and Australia deploy from home ports even if they have to cover big parts of the oceans.

Just find it hard to think about a theorethical US SSP for littorals if the op aeras are so far away from home ports.

 

[covert_shores]

US subs are routinely based in Guam and Hawaii on the pacific side (Hawaii being the home of the SDVs too so good connection) and with diesel boats it's easier to agree forward basing and visits to other friendly ports. Europe and Middle East are similarly easy to deploy too on a semi-permanent any basis. Forward deployment isn't a huge deal i think, especially without the anti-nuclear considerations of SSNs (although that is less of a problem today?)

 

[ouroboros]

I thought I saw a sub carrying WIG before, but it turned out to be fantasy...

 

[covert_shores]

Australia operated O-boats in the sea of Oshkosh and Britain deployed o-boats to the Falklands for inshore SF and intell roles. Most diesel boats only operate near to their home ports because of the remits of navies who operate them.

 

[royabulgaf]

And more or less as one guy mentioned. Say, the USN wants five SSNs. They realize that they can have say, 12 conventional subs for the price of five SSNs.

 

[gTg]

Thanks CS, for making it clear the SSP will not have to deploy from CONUS.


On the mission, do the US SSN currently escort the CVN's into the Persian Gulf or do they only cover them till the Straight of Hormuz?
If there is no SSN coverage i could see some SSP forward deployed to a Gulf State.

 

[covert_shores]

For sure the Persian gulf is an ideal operating zone for a littoral optimized boat.

In configuration terms how about a very teardrop shaped boat with no sail, like the soviet project 673 but AIP and modern. That would allow the integral hanger to be quite far forward but still allow an X-tail.

And maybe twin hangars based on the dimensions of those on USS Grayback. Difficult to make trapezoid and lateral stability concerns of one is flooded and the other not, but worth consideration.

 

[lastdingo]

Look at the Australians and their irrational emphasis on long endurance subs. The ability to use forward bases doesn't matter in such a case.
I'm sure the USN would not be flexible enough mentally to choose a littoral-optimized, small SSK. I'ms ure they would ty to get as close to their comfort zone (SSN) as possible, demanding a ridiculous endurance (oxygen for hundreds of miles underwater, diesel supply for 20,000 nm, food quantity, huge refrigerator...) and living accomodations for at least a three-month patrol. And it has to be able to break through arctic ice.

Then they would have the design fucked up and proclaim that the next "expeditionary littoral submarine of the future" has to be SSN again, but might follow the French approach of small SSNs. IF they get a big all-gold hull SSN class in parallel. They'd of course choose an all-gold big SSN over a small SSN any time.

 

[covert_shores]

L: 76m
B: 10.5m
Main hull diameter: 9m
Aft (AIP) hull diameter: 6.8m