• Hi Guest! Forum rules have been updated. All users please read here.

USAF/US NAVY 6th Generation Fighter Programs - F/A-XX, F-X, NGAD, PCA

Sundog

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2006
Messages
2,697
Reaction score
143
That isn't their sixth generation fighter. It's a marketing image of a sixth gen fighter. I can assure you that none of us here have any public knowledge of what are their "design study" configurations.

Having said that, it does look good, but most of the tailless fighter designs I've seen from the U.S. lately have been aesthetically interesting.
 

flateric

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2006
Messages
8,882
Reaction score
437
The same booth wall art LM have used in 2019.
 

Attachments

Sundog

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2006
Messages
2,697
Reaction score
143
FYI, no company is going to reveal it's configuration before the competition for the contract, to prevent the other teams from knowing how they plan on winning it.
 

rooster

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Jun 21, 2019
Messages
119
Reaction score
37
FYI, no company is going to reveal it's configuration before the competition for the contract, to prevent the other teams from knowing how they plan on winning it.
Do you remember the ATF artwork from the 1980s. As early as 1986 Lockheed's artwork was almost spot on accurate to what the YF-22 looked like, right down to the single piece canopy. The monikers they allowed us to believe in was a rotary launcher and canards. Even the oversize tails were in some of the paintings.
 

red admiral

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Sep 16, 2006
Messages
576
Reaction score
32
The monikers they allowed us to believe in was a rotary launcher and canards.
But the rotary launcher was in Lockheed's concept at that point. It was only after they teamed with GD and Boeing that it was changed due to presumably a combination of requirements update (AMRAAM C) and technical feasibility.
 

rooster

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Jun 21, 2019
Messages
119
Reaction score
37
The rotary launcher was real?? With that weight and Complexity? Live and learn!
 

TAOG

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Oct 8, 2018
Messages
57
Reaction score
58
UAVs could start replacing manned fighters in mid-2020: USAF

"... “The idea of what is a fighter, the equation and kind of the math that we use to for a fighter still works pretty well in the European environment. The range and payload and distance problem is still a pretty effective solution,” he says. “It’s not as effective as solution in the Pacific because of the great distances.”

The Lockheed Martin F-35A Lightning II stealth fighter has been criticised for having a limited combat range of 600nm (1110km), insufficient to avoid a surprise hit by China’s long-range ballistic and cruise missiles while parked at an air base in the western Pacific Ocean.

In part to solve that limitation, the Air Force Research Laboratory and Kratos Defense Security Solutions have been developing the XQ-58A Valkyrie, a low-cost UAV with a 1,500nm combat radius. The attritable aircraft could be flown independently or as a loyal wingman alongside manned aircraft.

The range problem is also influencing the USAF’s thinking on its next-generation fighter development programme, called Next Generation Air Dominance (NGAD), says Holmes.

“So as you look at NGAD, and you look at the follow-on programmes, I wouldn’t expect it to produce things that necessarily look like a traditional fighter, in that same kind of swap between range and payload and distance that we’ve done in a traditional fighter,” he says. “And, I think that’s what Dr. Roper is talking about. Both: How about the unmanned, low cost of tradable options? And, how might they do those same missions?” ...?



 

sferrin

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
Messages
12,643
Reaction score
724
UAVs could start replacing manned fighters in mid-2020: USAF

"... “The idea of what is a fighter, the equation and kind of the math that we use to for a fighter still works pretty well in the European environment. The range and payload and distance problem is still a pretty effective solution,” he says. “It’s not as effective as solution in the Pacific because of the great distances.”

The Lockheed Martin F-35A Lightning II stealth fighter has been criticised for having a limited combat range of 600nm (1110km), insufficient to avoid a surprise hit by China’s long-range ballistic and cruise missiles while parked at an air base in the western Pacific Ocean.

In part to solve that limitation, the Air Force Research Laboratory and Kratos Defense Security Solutions have been developing the XQ-58A Valkyrie, a low-cost UAV with a 1,500nm combat radius. The attritable aircraft could be flown independently or as a loyal wingman alongside manned aircraft.

The range problem is also influencing the USAF’s thinking on its next-generation fighter development programme, called Next Generation Air Dominance (NGAD), says Holmes.

“So as you look at NGAD, and you look at the follow-on programmes, I wouldn’t expect it to produce things that necessarily look like a traditional fighter, in that same kind of swap between range and payload and distance that we’ve done in a traditional fighter,” he says. “And, I think that’s what Dr. Roper is talking about. Both: How about the unmanned, low cost of tradable options? And, how might they do those same missions?” ...?



How would they detect anything?
 

TomcatViP

Hellcat
Joined
Feb 12, 2017
Messages
1,297
Reaction score
206
Asking you to turn-on your transponder?
(don't laugh, some genius have banked gold on that).
 

In_A_Dream

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Messages
88
Reaction score
16
China won't give us a choice in this regard. It'll force the services to adopt completely unmanned combat platforms for a multitude of roles. Not now of course, but in time. That's kind of why we have to take a sober look at the Ford Class Carriers, or rather, a sober look at everything. Unmanned warfare can be cheap and expendable, putting a lot of things at risk. I know we want to carry on proud traditions and push forward with familiar/recognizable platforms, but everything's going to be different. Driven by the respective superpowers doing everything they can to maintain an edge.
 

icyplanetnhc

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Aug 16, 2015
Messages
117
Reaction score
26
Website
aiaa.seas.ucla.edu
I wouldn't say that the rotary launcher was meant to mislead, since it was indeed a part of Lockheed's ATF submission for the Dem/Val RFP. The rotary launcher was pretty much abandoned soon after down-select when Lockheed up teamed with Boeing and General Dynamics. The arrangement used up a lot of volume and pushed out the inlets, which created excessive wave drag presumably from the large cross section. I can see how a rotary launcher has quite a bit of "wasted volume" in the center.
 

sferrin

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
Messages
12,643
Reaction score
724
This would seem relevant to this thread.

It's Elon Musk. He's definitely smart but smart doesn't equate to omniscient. In this case, well, he makes good cars and I like his rockets.
 

donnage99

"Robert Gates, is that you??" sublight
Joined
Jun 17, 2008
Messages
975
Reaction score
13
This would seem relevant to this thread.

It's Elon Musk. He's definitely smart but smart doesn't equate to omniscient. In this case, well, he makes good cars and I like his rockets.
I like his battery farm as well that saved australia from going back to the stone age. Oh and paypal.
 

Colonial-Marine

Fighting the UAV mafia.
Joined
Oct 5, 2009
Messages
651
Reaction score
21
Doesn't Musk like to warn about the dangers of AI? Replacing all manned fighters with UCAVs would necessitate a whole lot of reliance on AI.
 

In_A_Dream

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Messages
88
Reaction score
16
Doesn't Musk like to warn about the dangers of AI? Replacing all manned fighters with UCAVs would necessitate a whole lot of reliance on AI.
Think about it in terms of expendability. Swarms. Something that can overwhelm any air-defense system that's protecting 10s of billions of $$ worth of military assets for 1/100th the price and little risk.
 

MihoshiK

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Feb 9, 2007
Messages
135
Reaction score
38
Doesn't Musk like to warn about the dangers of AI? Replacing all manned fighters with UCAVs would necessitate a whole lot of reliance on AI.
I think he's worried about a generalized AI but not AI in general (if that makes sense).
I think his main beef is with seed AI, and not specialized AI. To be fair, seed AI is something that has the potential to go VERY pear shaped if you're not careful. It's not that we have to fear "smart" AI per se. Even a really dumb AI will be really dumb really fast.
 

sferrin

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
Messages
12,643
Reaction score
724
Doesn't Musk like to warn about the dangers of AI? Replacing all manned fighters with UCAVs would necessitate a whole lot of reliance on AI.
I think he's worried about a generalized AI but not AI in general (if that makes sense).
I think his main beef is with seed AI, and not specialized AI. To be fair, seed AI is something that has the potential to go VERY pear shaped if you're not careful. It's not that we have to fear "smart" AI per se. Even a really dumb AI will be really dumb really fast.
WTF is "seed" AI?
 

sferrin

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
Messages
12,643
Reaction score
724
Doesn't Musk like to warn about the dangers of AI? Replacing all manned fighters with UCAVs would necessitate a whole lot of reliance on AI.
Think about it in terms of expendability. Swarms. Something that can overwhelm any air-defense system that's protecting 10s of billions of $$ worth of military assets for 1/100th the price and little risk.
How is that going to happen, specifically? There ain't no swarm that can traverse 1000 miles, which means you need a carrier vehicle, which can be killed. Battlefield is a different situation. I wouldn't want to be in a tank 20 years from now. (Then again, tanks will likely have DEW CIWS by then so the concern may be over inflated.)
 

MihoshiK

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Feb 9, 2007
Messages
135
Reaction score
38
Doesn't Musk like to warn about the dangers of AI? Replacing all manned fighters with UCAVs would necessitate a whole lot of reliance on AI.
I think he's worried about a generalized AI but not AI in general (if that makes sense).
I think his main beef is with seed AI, and not specialized AI. To be fair, seed AI is something that has the potential to go VERY pear shaped if you're not careful. It's not that we have to fear "smart" AI per se. Even a really dumb AI will be really dumb really fast.
WTF is "seed" AI?
As Arjen said, AI capable of pulling itself up by it's bootstraps.
 

sferrin

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
Messages
12,643
Reaction score
724

donnage99

"Robert Gates, is that you??" sublight
Joined
Jun 17, 2008
Messages
975
Reaction score
13
Doesn't Musk like to warn about the dangers of AI? Replacing all manned fighters with UCAVs would necessitate a whole lot of reliance on AI.
He thinks AI is inevitable and the only hope is to advance technology that would merge human consciousness with that of AI, the whole if you can't beat them join them. In fact, he has a company that researches on this technology
 

FighterJock

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Oct 29, 2007
Messages
1,179
Reaction score
88
Doesn't Musk like to warn about the dangers of AI? Replacing all manned fighters with UCAVs would necessitate a whole lot of reliance on AI.
He thinks AI is inevitable and the only hope is to advance technology that would merge human consciousness with that of AI, the whole if you can't beat them join them. In fact, he has a company that researches on this technology
AI only works when you programme in Issac Asimov's Three Law's of Robotics into the CPU and make sure that the Fighter/Bomber cannot overrule the law's.
 

Arjen

It's turtles all the way down
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2010
Messages
2,521
Reaction score
258
It would be difficult to reconcile the tasks one would expect robotic fighter bombers to perform with Asimov's First Law - a robot may not injure a human being, or through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
 

In_A_Dream

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Messages
88
Reaction score
16
How is that going to happen, specifically? There ain't no swarm that can traverse 1000 miles, which means you need a carrier vehicle, which can be killed. Battlefield is a different situation. I wouldn't want to be in a tank 20 years from now. (Then again, tanks will likely have DEW CIWS by then so the concern may be over inflated.)
As the famous Dr. Ian Malcolm once said: "Artificial Life will find a way"
 

sferrin

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
Messages
12,643
Reaction score
724
Doesn't Musk like to warn about the dangers of AI? Replacing all manned fighters with UCAVs would necessitate a whole lot of reliance on AI.
He thinks AI is inevitable and the only hope is to advance technology that would merge human consciousness with that of AI, the whole if you can't beat them join them. In fact, he has a company that researches on this technology
AI only works when you programme in Issac Asimov's Three Law's of Robotics into the CPU and make sure that the Fighter/Bomber cannot overrule the law's.
Impossible. There will always be somebody who'd build an AI without them.
 

donnage99

"Robert Gates, is that you??" sublight
Joined
Jun 17, 2008
Messages
975
Reaction score
13
AI only works when you programme in Issac Asimov's Three Law's of Robotics into the CPU and make sure that the Fighter/Bomber cannot overrule the law's.
I suggest you look up the discussion that includes Elon, Sam Harris, and couple of leading experts and engineers on how AI.
 
Top