The mysterious de Monge project that was also a Payen and a Fokker!

Tophe said:
From Le Trait d'Union #224 Nov-Dec 2005: a Louis De Monge flying wing airliner project, 1934.
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It is funny because the same aircraft appears on the front page of a document signed by Rolland Payen around 1940, and with Payen name written on the fins!
 

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I required expert analyze from our Payen expert: dear Deltafan.
Deltafan said:
Si le dessin de couverture n'est pas un Payen, ça expliquerait pourquoi l'article n'en parle pas (les seuls Payen cités sont uniquement ceux que l'on trouve dans l'ouvrage d'Alain Pelletier : Les ailes volantes). Maintenant pourquoi y a-t-il marqué Payen sur ce dessin de de Monge ? Sais pas. Peut-être une simple erreur de l'éditeur et/ou une confusion avec d'autres projets Payen, comme le projet Pa.361 TP de 1937, qui a vaguement la forme de ce de Monge ?
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In English: If the cover drawing is not a Payen, that would explain why the included article does not mention it (the only mentionned Payen being the ones found in Alain Pelletier's book "Flying Wings"). Well, why is it written PAYEN on the De Monge design? I don't know. Maybe a mistake by the publisher and/or a confusion with other Payen projects, like the Pa.361TP of 1937, which has a similar layout (?).
Thanks a lot, Deltafan, it is nice to have such experts among us! explaining puzzle mysteries...
 
Thanks Tophe and Deltafan. Indeed, not a word on this cover project in Payen article.
BTW, is there a drawing available of this Payen 361TP of similar layout?
Thanks in advance.
 
I have thorougly examined all the info I have on Payen, but I couldn't come across anything about the De Monge-Payen flying wing as shown in the drawings above. I hope someone can clarify this because it's extremely interesting!
 
Retrofit said:
Thanks Tophe and Deltafan. Indeed, not a word on this cover project in Payen article.
BTW, is there a drawing available of this Payen 361TP of similar layout?
Thanks in advance.
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Great pic! However I wouldn't call this design "similar". In profile form there may be similarities, but the planform is completely different.
 
Ahem, i don't know the good translation for : comme le projet Pa.361 TP de 1937, qui a vaguement la forme de ce de Monge ;)
 
Deltafan said:
Ahem, i don't know the good translation for : comme le projet Pa.361 TP de 1937, qui a vaguement la forme de ce de Monge ;)
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"... such as the Pa.361 TP project of 1937, the shape of which is vaguely reminiscent of the De Monge..."
 
BUT... all of this still doesn't explain why this picture clearly depicting the De Monge flying wing has the typical "NR-Payen" mention on the tail... My two cents is that Payen designed that for De Monge, or De Monge for Payen, it must have been a joint work at any rate.

index.php
 
A closer look on both drawing showing some minor changes
in the tailplane look.Two different artists or designs ?
 
lark said:
A closer look on both drawing showing some minor changes
in the tailplane look.Two different artists or designs ?
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I should think NOT. Take a look at this image: I have superimposed both designs after matching the scales and the orientation. I did NOT resize any elements separately not distort anything. As you can see, the shape and position of every element (wings, engine, cockpit, every rib and panel) is THE SAME (except for the tail fins). To me these are just two stages of the exact same design.
 

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Stargazer said:
Considering the Payen version MAY have been Pa.370, the designation "F.360" may not be so far-fetched (it could very well mean "Fléchair 360").
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May you are right,but why they mentioned Fokker ?!.
 
hesham said:
... but why they mentioned Fokker ?!.
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Good question. That 'F-360' certainly wasn't a Fokker designation.

Its hard to make out in the artwork but does this thing have tandem engines driving contra-props?

If so, that reminds me a bit of the 1939 Ontwerp 178 airliner project. Can anyone confirm that Ontwerp 178 was part of Fokker's lifting-body series of airliner designs?
 
Apophenia said:
Good question. That 'F-360' certainly wasn't a Fokker designation.

Its hard to make out in the artwork but does this thing have tandem engines driving contra-props?

If so, that reminds me a bit of the 1939 Ontwerp 178 airliner project. Can anyone confirm that Ontwerp 178 was part of Fokker's lifting-body series of airliner designs?
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My dear Apophenia,

it's de Monge's design,I think they made a mistake when referred to it
as a Fokker concept, anyway,here is a description to Onttwerp 178,

178 Large four-engine commercial aircraft with pressurized cabin and engines in tandem. 16 passengers. Nose wheel. Wingspan 34 m.
 

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If I may, the article in the February 2nd, 1935 issue of the Dutch magazine Vliegwereld is entitled "A vision for the year 1945," or something close to that.

Given that, the mentions in the text that the Fokker F.360 was able to reach a speed of 1,220 km/h at 14,000 metres (758 mph at 45,950 ft), and the possibility that it had a wingspan of 300 metres (985 feet), I wonder if that (360 passenger?) machine was not in fact a complete fiction imagined by the author of the article, one P.J.J. Mounier.

Incidentally, Vliegwereld illustrated Mounier's article with a drawing which accompanied a text by de Monge about an imagined transatlantic flight in 1945, a text published in the November 23rd, 1934 issue of the French magazine L'Aéro.
 
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