Military/space technology effects of Nixon in 1960?

Lascaris

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What it says in the title really. Just a few things of the top of my head.

1. F-111 remains solely a bomber project, no TFX. By extension it is likely won by Boeing. By further extension does this bring out of the military business General Dynamics.
2. A separate naval interceptor project started in the 1960s. That's F-14 really without the F-111B mess first.
3. Does what became F-15 become significantly affected? Even if there is no large scale army involvement in Vietnam I cannot see there not being an air force involvement...
4. No reach the Moon by the end of the decade and much more modest increases in NASA budget. This long term may well turn out to be beneficial... after the Soviets make a manned cislunar flight first with the Democratic president after 1968 having to react...
5. To get to Britain I'd venture to say Skybolt continues. This in turn means no Nassau agreement so about 160 million pounds don't go to SSBNS's, does the RN actually get its carriers?
6. MlF is likely still around... but are the Italians given Polaris?
 
4. No reach the Moon by the end of the decade and much more modest increases in NASA budget. This long term may well turn out to be beneficial... after the Soviets make a manned cislunar flight first with the Democratic president after 1968 having to react...

...After which America is essentially done with. Being unable to beat USSR in space race, it would be viewed by all world as technologically-incapable, backward nation, incapable of producing anything that would capture peoples imagination. It would be a strike, of which US would not recover lightly. Its international credibility as leader of Western world would be ruined.

6. MlF is likely still around... but are the Italians given Polaris?

America would be BEGGING Italians to took Polaris and stay in NATO. Because when US would lose Space Race (as you pointed above), everybody would think that US military technology is trash, much inferior to Soviet ones. The ability of US to protect its allies would be put under Really Big Question. Everybody would be pointing out, that since Soviet are leading in space, and US did nothing but sluggishly copying their advances - it means that Soviets are much better in most crucial area of technology, such as rocketry and electronics. And why should Western nations rely on US faulty tech to protect them, instead of seeking some kind of rapprochement with Moscow?
 
No Mcnamara, no Mcnamara, no Mcnamara, no Mcnamara, no Mcnamara. Did I mention no Mcnamara?

TFX remains an 88 foot long 80k pounds strike aircraft. USN gets the F6D and Eagle. B-70 stays dead. F-12 may be a go.

Beyond that, it really depends on what, if anything, happens in Vietnam. Assuming the Cuban missile crisis doesn't end up with everyone crispy fried.
 
No Mcnamara, no Mcnamara, no Mcnamara, no Mcnamara, no Mcnamara. Did I mention no Mcnamara?

TFX remains an 88 foot long 80k pounds strike aircraft. USN gets the F6D and Eagle. B-70 stays dead. F-12 may be a go.

Beyond that, it really depends on what, if anything, happens in Vietnam. Assuming the Cuban missile crisis doesn't end up with everyone crispy fried.

What Cuban missile crisis? The marines went in to take care of things during Bay of Pigs. Vietnam... I think at a minimum lots upon lots of bombing.
 
4. No reach the Moon by the end of the decade and much more modest increases in NASA budget. This long term may well turn out to be beneficial... after the Soviets make a manned cislunar flight first with the Democratic president after 1968 having to react...

...After which America is essentially done with. Being unable to beat USSR in space race, it would be viewed by all world as technologically-incapable, backward nation, incapable of producing anything that would capture peoples imagination. It would be a strike, of which US would not recover lightly. Its international credibility as leader of Western world would be ruined.

Time to commit to a manned Mars mission methinks. Only way one would be passing Congress...
 
Time to commit to a manned Mars mission methinks. Only way one would be passing Congress...

It would be... hard. Mars mission would require a lot more efforts than Moon one. It would require years of biological research, just to understood how human body would react on the prolonged zero-g, space radiation, ect. Let's not forget, in 1960s, there were no orbital stations yet, and nobody could be sure what problems could arise in prolonged staying in space. All this while American world influence would be on serious decline, and internally there would be a serious dissatisfaction about the state of things.
 
What Cuban missile crisis? The marines went in to take care of things during Bay of Pigs.

So essentially USA would dive deep into the guerilla war on Cuba, to annoyance and anger of the most of Latin America. Soviet propaganda would use it to bash the American interventionism and aggressiveness. Let's not forget; politically, using American troops on Cuba would be much worse than Vietnam, because USA recognized Castro government. Involving US marines into counter-revolution attempt would be nothing less than direct intervention against perfectly legal regime, that done nothing to justify that ("Washington did not like him" was not a justification that time).

P.S. Not to mention, considering how badly CIA underestimated the Castro forces, it could quite easily led to even further disaster, if US marines would actually be defeated by Cuban forces.
 
Nixon in 1960 would change allot
no Mcnamara

This means project like X-20 or SLAM could get flight hardware status mid 1960s
XB-70 was Dead End because shift in Strategy
Skybolt enter service for British and SAC B-52

if F-12 and B-58B fleet got build is another question those systems are expensive, i mean very expensive to buy and maintain...

And Biggest problem
will the World survive the Berlin and Cuba crisis under Nixon ?
 
Vietnam... I think at a minimum lots upon lots of bombing.
What I mean is does the US get involved in VN? If yes, then oops! Missiles ain't all that yet, need dogfighters and guns, so there is an opening for the fighter mafia. F-111 and F6D means whatever programs result might look more like an F-16 than an F-15 or F-14. Stay out of Vietnam, and the turn to agility may not happen.
 
There were a lot of crazy whacky projects going on by the early 60's. Some completely bonkers even by Cold War standards.

Hydrogen aircraft (Suntan) boron aircraft (B-70) nuclear aircraft (WS-125A or CAMAL).

The "deterrent wars" between Army, USN, Air Force - with the "ICBM basing" crazy schemes (from Orion to Project Iceworm... !)

The "ABM war" USAF vs ARPA vs Army

The "manned spaceflight war" between USAF and NASA (SAMOS & Dynasoar vs Mercury and Apollo)

The "spysat war" between USAF and CIA (would the NRO be created in 1962 under Nixon ?)

And all the military aircraft programs... plus the SST (Nixon wouldn't tolerate Concorde just as he didn't in 68-72).

Apollo is the great unknown. JFK started at the wrong moment for the wrong reasons (Bay of Pigs, Gagarin - meh). There is a small chance Nixon don't blunder the Bay of pigs and this butterfly Apollo.
Note that a lighter, two-men Apollo (20000 pounds instead of 65000 pounds) could be send orbiting the Moon by one or two Saturn C-2. No Saturn C-5, no F-1, no LM. A mere extension of an Earth orbit space station. That would be enough for Nixon to beat the soviets at lower cost.
 
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This is an interesting thread because we know what "loser" Nixon does in real world from 1968 to 1974.
However, the alt "winner" Nixon is.not conditioned by the years spent from 1960 to 1968 learning the lessons of his defeat and growing darker in his hatred of the "liberal establishment". Jason Robards in Washington behind Closed Doors TV series from the 70s captures this haunted figure.
Figures in RW Nixon like Henry Kissinger were crucial to his foreign and security policy.
A Nixon administration in 1961 might have been like Bush after Reagan, a continuation of Eisenhower. Stolid middle America.
Kruschev would not have tried to test Nixon as he did Kennedy. Ironically relations between East and West might have been much better as a result.
Nixon RW is not keen on big ticket items unless they win him votes. I doubt the Moon programme would have gained the impetus it did under JFK.. Space would have been duller, more practical.
Cuba and Vietnam happen but are more like Britain in Malaya, lower key, possibly nastier.
Nixon like Johnson may have done more social and domestic programmes than his critics recognised.
Expect the likes of Goldwater and Rockefeller to try and get Nixon out for the 64 election against a Kennedy.
 
4. No reach the Moon by the end of the decade and much more modest increases in NASA budget. This long term may well turn out to be beneficial... after the Soviets make a manned cislunar flight first with the Democratic president after 1968 having to react...

...After which America is essentially done with. Being unable to beat USSR in space race, it would be viewed by all world as technologically-incapable, backward nation, incapable of producing anything that would capture peoples imagination. It would be a strike, of which US would not recover lightly. Its international credibility as leader of Western world would be ruined.

There's a false assumption here that the US not "going for the Moon" means we somehow "lose" the Space Race which is wrong on many levels. Lets start with the most obvious and say that Nixon remains 'hands-off' the space program but in typical Nixon fashion lets it be known how he feels. Von Braun 'won' the only time he played hardball and ignored his engineering staff and most of NASA management when he chose to postpone Sheppard's Mercury flight for another test. Pretty much ANY pressure from the White House is going to change his mind and so Sheppard goes into "space" before Gagarin. But it's "only" sub-orbital... Like that will make a difference to anyone in the US or anyone they can talk to?

By the end of 1961 the US has a booster as capable if not more so than anything the Soviets have and they will exploit that payload capability to the limit.

Ok, assume then that Nixon does not put any pressure on Von Braun and Sheppard still only flies after Gagarin what then? Nixon does not have to 'prove' his anti-Communist cred because he's got plenty to spare unlike Kennedy. Johnson will give him a 'treatment' or two to put pressure on him but considering he's likely coming off a successful invasion of Cuba and the euphoria from that he doesn't have to listen. Again, less than a year later the US is putting men into orbit and has a larger booster available for future payloads. By 1965-ish we'll have put up at least one long duration, (a couple weeks) manned flight using a Saturn 1 with maybe a Mercury RV with plans to put up a small space station by the end of the decade serviced by the Apollo ferry spacecraft. (Likely the Martin 410 instead of the North American Apollo)

If Gemini still happens, (up in the air as the OTL Lunar Goal drove a lot of that effort) then it likely goes into orbit of the Moon sometime in the late 60s and there will likely be some work on a cooperative effort to land on the Moon by the mid-70s in the works.

Sorry folks, the X-20 still ends up canceled or if we're very lucky it gets transferred to NASA and becomes an actual "X" plane. It's problem was the Air Force insisted on running the program AS an Air Force program with no real budget and no defined purpose. As an "X" plane it makes sense but not as a straight up experimental-to-operational vehicle which was what the Air Force was pushing. NASA would likely jump at the chance to play with the X-20 but my "Air Force" sense is tingling like they might just keep shoving it into the ground out of spite.

The F1 likely gets developed as NASA was interested in it for future use. Probably like OTL when the Air Force can't find funding for the XLR-129 they will foist it off on NASA with just as little actual development and still too much security for NASA to manage development. (Maybe if they are better terms over a cooperative X-20 project but I doubt it given the AF leadership of the time)

Something to keep in mind on the world stage is, (again) unlike Kennedy, Nixon doesn't have to stretch his political muscles too far abroad. Asia is more a 'side-note' as all eyes will remain focused on Europe. If he jumps in anywhere with anything but advisors and aid it may be Laos with some direct support but I doubt he'd go into Vietnam without some major reason. It's a proxy war after all and it can be spun as a US effort if they win and a local issue is they lose with few repercussions.

Randy
 
There's a false assumption here that the US not "going for the Moon" means we somehow "lose" the Space Race which is wrong on many levels.

Without the efforts you put into Apollo program - yes, you have all chances to do that. It is not guaranteed, of course - there are still a probability that Nixon would be able to pull a miracle - but chances of US losing Moon Race would be more than the other way.

If Gemini still happens, (up in the air as the OTL Lunar Goal drove a lot of that effort) then it likely goes into orbit of the Moon sometime in the late 60s and there will likely be some work on a cooperative effort to land on the Moon by the mid-70s in the works.

And what would it means if by early 1970s Soviets would land on Moon?
 
If US credibility/technological authority trashed, would support for the SST be strengthened to compensate? Criticizing the airplane might seem unpatriotic, defeatist.
 
There's a false assumption here that the US not "going for the Moon" means we somehow "lose" the Space Race which is wrong on many levels.

Without the efforts you put into Apollo program - yes, you have all chances to do that. It is not guaranteed, of course - there are still a probability that Nixon would be able to pull a miracle - but chances of US losing Moon Race would be more than the other way.

Actually not as great a chance as OTL and look how close THAT 'race' was :)
At the time when Gagarin flew it had already been planned to follow Mercury with the three-man Apollo spacecraft lofted on the Saturn 1. (Mercury was unable to be expanded and didn't have the utility the Vostok did so the USSR continued to use it till it ran out of capability) The limitations of the Mercury were well known and understood before it flew and were glaringly obvious once it had flown so the "Mercury MkII" was suggested. Unfortunately it wasn't that simple and so Gemini came along and it turned out to be quite capable in and of itself. But like the Soviets the US planned at a minimum a three person orbital spacecraft to carry through the late 60s and into the 70s to support Earth orbital and then later Lunar operations. That was Apollo for the US and Soyuz for the USSR. At this point no one was in any hurry to get to the Moon anytime soon.

Then Kennedy, already smarting from the Bay of Pigs failure got side-swiped by Gagarin's flight and needed a clear "win" in technology for the US to counter that. No matter how hard he looked everything kept coming back to space even though there were dozens of 'tech' projects that the US could do that the USSR could not. Space was currently the place to show off and so Kennedy reluctantly choose the Lunar Landing goal as the most obvious, most near term, and the one the US was most likely to win. (With both parties starting out in essentially the same place)
He spent the rest of his time in office trying to come up with a way to scale it back or reduce it in some way because he realized that it would cost so much and end up being so limited. Considering how much domestic push-back he was getting over the costs and resources less than a year later this is really no surprise.

Had he lived those costs and expenditures would likely have been an large election issue in 1964 and not in a good way. If re-elected he likely would have scaled things back and tried harder to interest the Soviets in a cooperative mission instead.

Nixon has none of that baggage. He likely goes all in on Cuba and will have that 'win' (or at least very close to) under his belt and will feel no need to 'respond' aggressively to Gagarin's flight. He'll have learned from Eisenhower's mistake that NO response is a bad thing but giving into Johnson, (who'd have gone back to Congress) a little bit with his idea of 'Reconstruction 2.0" through NASA will probably help smooth the way for Civil Rights reform, (something they both wanted) and give NASA enough money to accelerate Gemini and Apollo and get more orbital work done.

Since he and Khrushchev have more depth a LOT of the underestimations and midreadings of Kennedy-v-Khrushchev won't be there so it's a lot more likely that cooperative talks start at a higher level and get further than OTL. Again, no one is in any rush to get to the Moon.

If Gemini still happens, (up in the air as the OTL Lunar Goal drove a lot of that effort) then it likely goes into orbit of the Moon sometime in the late 60s and there will likely be some work on a cooperative effort to land on the Moon by the mid-70s in the works.

And what would it means if by early 1970s Soviets would land on Moon?
[/QUOTE]

Why would they? They didn't take the US Lunar goal seriously until the mid-60s by which point it was clear that we were actually serious and they still took forever and didn't support their own program very deeply until it was far to late. Here they have even less incentive to try.

Keep in mind that the early Soviet space program was specifically a 'side-note' to military missile and space development. While a lot of people in the program would talk about the Moon and Mars and such they did not do so around those actually paying the bills. They were in the same boat as the people in the US who had discussed such things all through the early 50s when they were (officially) told to shut up or lose their careers! (Amusingly that memo literally came out the day before Sputnik went up and was promptly ignored :) )

The Soviets were arguably more surprised than anyone that they actually managed as many 'firsts' as they did and they were also aware they were running into the limit of their equipment and capability which is why they were working on Soyuz.

If the US doesn't push neither will the USSR. Both will focus more on Earth orbital work through a lot of the 60s and only gradually build up to Lunar capability. Assuming something similar to OTL for Gemini then that capability comes around the late 60s to at least get into orbit. If the Soviets push it they can stay in the game but they nor the American's can land at this point. And by the late 60s in any case both Apollo and Soyuz are at least flying in Earth orbit so the actual 'technical' differences are less allowing the possibility the Soviets might actually feel comfortable with the idea of cooperation with the US. (Anytime prior to that point the Soviet's limitations are too noticeable to allow them to let the American's see their stuff :) )

Randy
 
If US credibility/technological authority trashed, would support for the SST be strengthened to compensate? Criticizing the airplane might seem unpatriotic, defeatist.

Even if the US were seen as 'second' in Space, (and I see no reason they would) there's a lot less incentive for a 'big' SST program which OTL was actually based on trying to find an alternative work-load for aerospace industries who's Apollo workload was coming to an end.

The main issue with the US SST was that it wasn't every going to be a commercially successful vehicle and everyone knew it. The Airlines would only buy it if the government subsidized the purchase and routes and the aircraft companies would only build it if the government paid the majority costs. Acceptable when looking to avoid the layoffs and economic down-turn created by the loosing the Apollo workload at an Administration level but not at the Congressional one which at the time was mostly Democrat anyway.

1960 to 1964 is a bit to early to have any of the underlying issues being big enough to make an SST a priority. 1965 to 1968 it's a 'maybe' at best but there will be other issues that will likely take precedence.

At the given POD, (1960) my take is your best bet for an American SST is the work being given to North American since Nixon will still want to kill the XB-70 but not want to put NAA out of business. (And assuming they likely won't get the Apollo contract TTL) In essence there were a number of ways to turn the XB-70 into a possible SST by greatly reducing it's complexity and cost. (And probably making it smaller to boot) And Nixon can soft-sell it as jobs and technology both.

The Air Force and LeMay are kind of wild cards here but OTL their advocacy for the B-70 wasn't really for that particular project but a number of behind-the-scenes other projects (including the Cis-Lunar Deterrent Force concept mind you :) ) that were of no interest to the Kennedy administration, but were generally unknown to the public. Nixon will likely have a bit more leeway towards some of those projects so they may be willing to let the B-70 ride.

Randy
 
I did some calculations over the Saturn C-2 yesterday. Starting from Astronautix numbers and polishing them a little.
I applied 0.94 mass fraction to kerolox stage 1 (OTL S-IC did it) and 0.92 to the three LH2 stages.

A single C-2 with a Centaur could deliver 30 mt to Earth orbit and 10 mt to LLO - low lunar orbit.
Plenty enough for a two-man Gemini / Block 1 Apollo "hybrid". It would be possible to fly to lunar orbit although not landing. This would take more C-2 either EOR or LOR style. Without JFK deadline Houbolt LOR is non starter and EOR is a go.

Two C-2 can orbit 60 mt - plenty enough to land a Gemini size two man vehicle on the Moon.

With EOR and a 30 mt stage maxing the C-2 it would be possible to drop 9 mt to the surface, 15 mt in lunar orbit and 25 mt through TLI.
 
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No Mcnamara, no Mcnamara, no Mcnamara, no Mcnamara, no Mcnamara. Did I mention no Mcnamara?

TFX remains an 88 foot long 80k pounds strike aircraft. USN gets the F6D and Eagle. B-70 stays dead. F-12 may be a go.

Beyond that, it really depends on what, if anything, happens in Vietnam. Assuming the Cuban missile crisis doesn't end up with everyone crispy fried.
Hate to rain on the parade. McNamara at this time was a Republican not a Democrat. Like Nixon he was not an East Coast Ivy Leaguer. As he did with Kissinger, Nixon might well have brought McNamara into his administration for his expertise, in this case at Ford in managing big procurements.
 
Hate to rain on the parade. McNamara at this time was a Republican not a Democrat. Like Nixon he was not an East Coast Ivy Leaguer. As he did with Kissinger, Nixon might well have brought McNamara into his administration for his expertise, in this case at Ford in managing big procurements.

I would see McNamara under Nixon, more as Sectary of US Department of Labor or Chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers.
 
I did some calculations over the Saturn C-2 yesterday. Starting from Astronautix numbers and polishing them a little.
I applied 0.94 mass fraction to kerolox stage 1 (OTL S-IC did it) and 0.92 to the three LH2 stages.

A single C-2 with a Centaur could deliver 30 mt to Earth orbit and 10 mt to LLO - low lunar orbit.
Plenty enough for a two-man Gemini / Block 1 Apollo "hybrid". It would be possible to fly to lunar orbit although not landing. This would take more C-2 either EOR or LOR style. Without JFK deadline Houbolt LOR is non starter and EOR is a go.

Two C-2 can orbit 60 mt - plenty enough to land a Gemini size two man vehicle on the Moon.

With EOR and a 30 mt stage maxing the C-2 it would be possible to drop 9 mt to the surface, 15 mt in lunar orbit and 25 mt through TLI.

The Saturn C1 was a 'game-changer' in and of itself as it gave the US more launch capability than the Soviets. The Soviets would struggle to match that capability in a timely manner. The problem for the US was we didn't have a "good" spacecraft (Gemini) to utilize that capability till the mid-60s and OTL's Apollo was struggling due to the rapidly changing requirements. TTL with a lot less 'stressing' about a Lunar landing I'd have to wonder if a number of those factors don't play out differently?

Something I should point out is that Houbolt and LOR are not so much of a 'dark-horse' as its made out to be since the ACTUAL debate was less about how what you do to land on the Moon as what you do to GET to the Moon. LOR had a pretty long history going all the way back to initial speculative planning circles in 1919!

Essentially the debate was more between EOR and Direct Ascent with the OTL debate coming down to where the majority of rendezvous would occur since it was unclear if such would need lots of ground support, (hence EOR) or could be done with less support in orbit around the Moon. (LOR)

EOR ended up being less based on "going to the Moon" as it was building up infrastructure and capability IN Earth orbit that could be used to go to the Moon and so many other things as well. In the end OTL it was the fact they had a hard deadline and little time to carry it out they went with getting to the Moon by Direct Ascent and splitting the landing ot reduce the complexity and cost of the Earth launch by going for LOR.

A more sedate pace is likely going to also include LOR since it reduces your direct risks in the landing phase but it will likely be a bigger landing and a longer stay time simply because you don't have the same constraints.

I see there still being somewhat of a 'race' towards who's first around the Moon but the USSR has to be careful from this point on as the US has the ability, (even if they aren't willing to take the actual risk :) ) to pull ahead if they get ticked off enough :)

Another thing to keep in mind is that Khrushchev and Nixon DO have a rapport of sorts in TTL and with such they may be more conducive to suggestions of cooperation rather than conflict. The Soviet's have to be careful because any close examination of their then current technology will quickly reveal they are not nearly as sophisticated as everyone assumed but it's a lot more plausible they might consider cooperation to preserve their status.

Oddly, (to me having grown up in the following era) I can see where Pounelle and NIven came up with the "CoDominum" concept given some of Khrushchev's more co-operational ideas presented to Kennedy (and one would assume Nixon if elected) could be seen to lay the groundwork for a world essentially static in a status-quo of keeping the US and USSR "on-top" but not in a seriously conflicting way. You don't get that impression from the rhetoric and writings of the time but if you know it's there you begin to see how such could be reduced to JUST rhetoric rather than action.

Randy
 
Oddly, (to me having grown up in the following era) I can see where Pounelle and NIven came up with the "CoDominum" concept given some of Khrushchev's more co-operational ideas presented to Kennedy (and one would assume Nixon if elected) could be seen to lay the groundwork for a world essentially static in a status-quo of keeping the US and USSR "on-top" but not in a seriously conflicting way.

1984 all over again.
 
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