Junkers EF 123/124

[Flitzer]

Hi
I'm looking for any references for Heinkel's concept for the RLM Volksflugzeug.
In Luftwaffe Secret Projects: Fighters 1939-1945 by Walter Schick and Ingolf Meyer, there is an artists imprssion and a small photo of the front view of the wind tunnel model but little else.
I wondered if anyone knows of more or where I might find it.

Many thanks, any help will be really appreciated.

P

 

[toura]

Hi Flitzer
I think that it is :
requirement for "volksflugzeug" was issued on September 1944.
answers
ARADO AR 580
bLOHM AND VOSS bvP 210 211
FISELER ?
FOCKE WULF VOLKSFLUGZEUG
JUNKERS EF 123 124
MESSERSCHMITT Declined
SIEBEL ?

AND
HEINKEL was the HE 162

I think that all this is good for you
Bye and a good new year....

 

[Flitzer]

Many thanks Toura.

But it's not the 162 I'm thinking of.

The one I'm interested in may well be a variation on the series that led to the He 162.
It reminds me of the Fw P1. It has the engine forward under the cockpit, resulting in a narrow but deep forward fuselage.
Without the wings and tail it might be described as 'Tadpole' like.

I'll do a preliminary 3-view anyway and post for critique.

Many thanks again
Peter
;D

 

[toura]

hi FLITZER
do you want to say the he p 1073.01.13 ?
Like the HE 162 but with engine under the cockpit and swept wings ?

 

[Jemiba]

Honestly, for me the name "Volksflugzeug" smells a bit like post-war interference, although I've
found it mentioned as a Focke-Wulf design similar to the He 162, known as the "Volksjäger"
(peoples fighter). But the term "Volksjäger" to my knowledge, wasn't used only for the He 162,
but for the whole, so would have been used for the Fw design, too.
The term "Volksflugzeug" (peoples aircraft) was well known then, too, but wouldn't have implied
a fighter, but more a light, or ultra-light aircraft, in times of war maybe provided for massed
pilot training.
That of course doesn't mean, that there wasn't such a project, maybe it as just a typo, but for me
it raises doubts about the reliability of the source.

 

[Flitzer]

Thanks Jemiba
I'll thumb through Luftwaffe Secret Projects: Fighters 1939-1945 by Walter Schick and Ingolf Meyer, and find the page number when I get home after work.

I may well have typo'd.

P

 

[Justo Miranda]

From "Jet Planes of the Third Reich -The Secret Projects-Volume one " by Manfred Griehl, Monogram.1998

 

[Flitzer]

Sincere apologies for any inconvenience.
I got it wrong. The aircraft I'm interested in is not a Heinkel, it's a Junkers. The EF123.
That will teach me to haunt Secret Projects without references to hand.
Luftwaffe Secret Projects: Fighters 1939-1945 by Walter Schick and Ingolf Meyer, PAGE 99.

You are absolutely right Justo (as always thankfully).
So I will try to do a 3-view.

Many thanks.
Peter

 

[Bailey]

Hi Flitzer,

The only reference I can find to the EF 123, apart from the one you already have, is from Heinkel He 162 Spatz - Balous & Bily - MBI.

The commision rejected the proposals from Junkers "Whose aircraft, possibly designated EF 123 or EF 124, was too simple. However the main problem with the Junker's proposal was the engine attached in a nacelle and fixed under the fuselage."

That description seems to match the photo of the model in LSPF, but not the artists impression.

Regards Bailey.

 

[Artie Bob]

IIRC, there are a number of photos of the EF 122 and 123 wind tunnel models in the microfilm at NASM Garber. However, IMHO one of the reasons the Heinkle design was selected was it actually predated the "Volksjager" competiton and thus the exteremely short time to first flight took advantage of this head start.

Best regards,

Artie Bob

 

[Jemiba]

Judging from descriptions and drawings there may have been more than
superficial similarities between the EF 123/124 and the later designs EF 126
and 127 (wings, cockpit and landing gear). So I used them and the photo of
the model as a basis for a reconstruction. Just an attempt, source grade 2 .

 

[Orionblamblam]

So I used them and the photo of
the model as a basis for a reconstruction. Just an attempt, source grade 2 .

While I think you pretty much nailed it, the design does seem to have a serius flaw: the exhaust. The nozzle seems to be kinda chopped in half. Even if there's some interesting ductwork involved, it's still going to make one hell of a mess of the sheetmetal on the underside.

 

[Jemiba]

"...to make one hell of a mess of the sheetmetal on the underside"

Pretty sure, but it's given this way by the model. Maybe there was a half a tube
integrated into the underside, or something like this, or the model just don't re-
present the design exactly,... or maybe the design presented by Junkers just wouldn't
have worked ! ;D

 

[Flitzer]

Hi
I've tried to re-profile the area above the engine exhaust as a remedy and to avoid any 'sheetmetal mess'
more akin to the Fw and BV 211.02 entries. (?)

Cheers
P

 

[Justo Miranda]

My opinion ...

 

[Jemiba]

Definitely better ! I had a closer look at the model again and I'm not sure, but the
fuselage underside just behing the nozzle seems to be curved upwards . Maybe the
underside was formed like a spade ?

 

[Justo Miranda]

Please see similar arrangement here

 

[Jemiba]

Exactly what I was thinking about, thank you !
Such an arrangement could have led to an exhaust
like this, I think:

 

[Flitzer]

Thank you very much Gentlemen.
I'll do the spade-like thing.

Next question:
Construction: metal fuselage and wooden wings or all wood?

Many thanks
Peter

 

[Justo Miranda]

metal fuselage and wooden wings

 

[Flitzer]

Thanks Justo.

If it had reached the production stage, would it have retained the blown 1 piece canopy?
Is this not intended for the model only?

Might it have adopted a more usual front three-pane frame (screen and 2 sides) with bubble back(?).
Or one more similar to the Me262 for example?

Many thanks again
Peter

 

[Justo Miranda]

would it have retained the blown 1 piece canopy?


Yes...Salamander style

 

[Flitzer]

Thanks Justo.

A little more.

Cheers
Peter

 

[Jemiba]

"would it have retained the blown 1 piece canopy? "

Not sure, but as there may have been similarities to the EF 126, it could have
had as well a similar canopy :
(from http://www.luftarchiv.de/index.htm?/flugzeuge/messerschmitt/me263.htm)

 

[Flitzer]

Er?...something like this?

Many thanks
Peter

 

[Zizi6785]

Hey Peter, great work! ;D

 

[Justo Miranda]

My opinion...

 

[Jemiba]

I would agree to Justos interpretation of the nozzle, the half retracted look
probably is an perspective effect in the photo, as the fuselage above the nozzle
is wider, than the nacelle. About the less swept leading edge I'm not quite sure,
made a quick experiment and i think, due to perspective and dihedral the sweep angle
of the leading edge COULD appear to be less, than it actually is.
(Sorry for the lousy graphics, but I had to take them from screenshots, I hope, they'll show,
what I'm trying to say :-\)

 

[Flitzer]

Thanks Justo and Jemiba.

I was sort of basing my first attempt on the illustration in
Luftwaffe Secret Projects: Fighters 1939-1945 by Walter Schick and Ingolf Meyer, PAGE 99.


I'll get busy. Corrections soon.

Peter

 

[Flitzer]

Hi again
I'll do the nozzle and fuselage profile as Justo has suggested.
And do one version for each of the two suggested wings.

Probably get something done over the weekend.

P

 

[Flitzer]

Hi
Side views.
2 versions, 1 of each wing type.

Top views next.

Cheers
P

 

[Justo Miranda]

Hard decision!

 

[Flitzer]

First top view tapered wing type progress.

P

 

[Flitzer]

Hi.
Whilst doing the above profile I came to the conclusion that the straight leading edge wing as suggested by Justo is more than likely the correct one.
So this one is the possible alternative.

Question please.
Tail planes. Would these also be made of wood like the main wings?

Many thanks
P

 

[Justo Miranda]

Wood

 

[Flitzer]

Thanks Justo.

Now progress on the straight leading edge wing version.

Many thanks
P

 

[Flitzer]

A little more tonight.
Re-profiled the main wing on the side view etc.

Many thanks
P

 

[Justo Miranda]

Some Salamander emblems here...

 

[Flitzer]

Many thanks Justo.

Just what the doctor ordered.
I can make great use of these.

P

 

[khanguru]

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.military/browse_thread/thread/e518d143c61a6c84#

This is something I spotted, but it does not appear to be what you are looking for. This is volksflugzeug as described as a peoples aeroplane.