German Groundbased Sidewinder

Jemiba

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In „Typenkompass Artillerie-, Panzer- und Luftabwehrsysteme der Bundeswehr“, by K.Anweiler and M. Pahlkötter,
I found mentioned a groundbased air defence system, using four AIM-9B Sidewinder. The launcher, roadable as a

single-axle trailer, was developed by the KUKA AG. There's no mention of the fire control system used. The launchers
were built during the '80s before the program was stopped. Any connection to Chapparal ?
 

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[font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Doubtful it has any direct connection. Back when Chaparral was first being designed the US Army wanted to place it on a mount like this, except using converted quad .50cal machine gun mounts. This was totally unworkable for various reasons, a prime one of which was the operator would be exposed to too much backblast and smoke. This mount appears to solve that by being remote cued. So they went with a much wider turret that could fit a very large shield and we got what we see. [/font]



Meanwhile the production Chaparral turret already could be had on a two axle trailer. Only one US Army battery ever had this version, intended mainly to be airdrop capable, but it was exported to Israel and a few other customers in small numbers. Also the Chaparral missiles themselves had a different rocket motor then Sidewinder abd tge original basis for Chaparral was AIM-9D meanwhile, so not much in common with AIM-9B. By the early 1980s the Army was up to MIM-72G which had yet another motor, and the seeker from the Stinger for all aspect capability.

A new built system for AIM-9B isnt too plausible in the 80s, it'd be worse then existing well, everything. One intending to use AIM-9L and I assume, a Rapier style remote aiming post, would make a lot more sense. I do believe Germany produced AIM-9L, or at least upgraded its mid generation Sidewinders to that standard during the 80s. I would be surprised if AIM-9B was still in use at all.
 
Sea Skimmer said:
... A new built system for AIM-9B isnt too plausible in the 80s, ....

AIM-9B is given in the mentioned book, but I think, you're right and checking the planform of the canards
actually seems to indicate a later version.
 
IIRC the mount was a converted 20mm gun system. I remember reading about these when they were announced back in the 1980s. The idea was that they would be visually cued onto the approaching aircraft and instructed when to fire by the control-centre which also controlled the guns. Both mounts were manned.
 
This system was offered to Spain in the 1990s for deployable air base defence. The main sales point was the fact it could use standard Sidewinder missiles so no new weapons had to be purchased. BGT was ideed the main partner in European Sidewinder production and I believe they still produce them. They licensed the AIM-9L in the 1980s and later produced their own improved versions as the AAIM-9L(I), which better ECCM that the standard L and supposedly on par with the US-only (at the time) AIM-9M which included ECCM capabilities against flares and IR decoys the basic L lacked.

BGT also offered the JULI, an upgraded of olded AIM-9J/N/P missiles with AIM-9L(I) seekers.

Unfortunately, I don't know what the full system included and I think the system was never tested in Spain. In the end, we got Aspide 2000 and Atlas/Mistral.
 
Something similar was proposed to the Hellenic M.O.D. in the early nineties by a small Greek firm only it used AIM-9Ps already in stock, for airfield protection. It made it to prototype -mockup? and was shown in one of the Defendory shows held at the time in Athens. When i will be at my computer again i will find photos from magazines of that era.
 
hk75gr said:
Something similar was proposed to the Hellenic M.O.D. in the early nineties by a small Greek firm only it used AIM-9Ps already in stock, for airfield protection. It made it to prototype -mockup? and was shown in one of the Defendory shows held at the time in Athens. When i will be at my computer again i will find photos from magazines of that era.
Do you know if the missiles would have received any kind of upgrade? No idea of the subtypes used by the Greek AF, but only the latest P models were all aspect, a must for air defence!
 
It's odd that they never went with the SARH -9C for ground-based use, thus offering the all-aspect capability a SAM so desperately needs. Is this because nobody ever thought of it, or because a detailed look at the possibility offered more problems than advantages?


Then again, the failure of -9C (or any SARH variant of Sidewinder) to get a foothold in general would probably constitute a story in itself. It seems odd, when the USAF was clearly happy with the concept of SARH and IR versions of the AIM-4, and the USN should have appreciated a semi-active missile that could be carried by its early missile-armed interceptors with less drag and weight penalty than the Sparrow, as might approved foreign users (am imagining SARH Sidewinders with an appropriate radar FCS on Australian Mirages, for example). IIRC, motor and aerodynamic developments meant that later versions of Sidewinder weren't much behind the early (beam-riding) Sparrows in performance anyway.
 
Gorka L Martinez Mezo said:
hk75gr said:
Something similar was proposed to the Hellenic M.O.D. in the early nineties by a small Greek firm only it used AIM-9Ps already in stock, for airfield protection. It made it to prototype -mockup? and was shown in one of the Defendory shows held at the time in Athens. When i will be at my computer again i will find photos from magazines of that era.
Do you know if the missiles would have received any kind of upgrade? No idea of the subtypes used by the Greek AF, but only the latest P models were all aspect, a must for air defence!

You are propably referring to ARIS system developed by EPTAE in early '90s.It uses AIM-9 or similar missiles to AF ground-based airdefence role.

https://www.google.gr/search?q=ARIS+%CE%B5%CF%80%CF%84%CE%B1%CE%B5&biw=1280&bih=655&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjYk63w0tDLAhWkQJoKHTMmCK8Q_AUIBigB#imgrc=kOyZTvDVDmj2HM%3A
 
Sea Skimmer said:
... A new built system for AIM-9B isnt too plausible in the 80s, ....

AIM-9B is given in the mentioned book, but I think, you're right and checking the planform of the canards
actually seems to indicate a later version.
IIRC the West Germans took the AIM-9B seeker design and transistorised it but used the -9D optical-assembly and aerodynamic shape using CO2 cooling, it was designated the AIM-9F IIRC.
 
In „Typenkompass Artillerie-, Panzer- und Luftabwehrsysteme der Bundeswehr“, by K.Anweiler and M. Pahlkötter,
I found mentioned a groundbased air defence system, using four AIM-9B Sidewinder. The launcher, roadable as a

single-axle trailer, was developed by the KUKA AG. There's no mention of the fire control system used. The launchers
were built during the '80s before the program was stopped. Any connection to Chapparal ?
Looks light and simple.
I like it!
Hopefully we can find out more about this 'single-axle launcher trailer, developed by KUKA AG.'

Regards
Pioneer
 
From 'BGT - Die Geschichte eines Hochtechnologie-Unternehmens':
Pictures of the BGT developed prototype of the BSG (Bodenstartgerät) and of the later KUKA built BSG with 3 Aim-9L and one ASRAAM.
When i have time i will try translating the relevant passages of the book.

Additionally i remember reading somewhere else that the manual acquisition of the target and LOBL with the sidewinder seeker was problematic and BGT proposed to solve this with the ASRAAM which had the advantage of a data link and LOAL.
 

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It's odd that they never went with the SARH -9C for ground-based use, thus offering the all-aspect capability a SAM so desperately needs. Is this because nobody ever thought of it, or because a detailed look at the possibility offered more problems than advantages?


Then again, the failure of -9C (or any SARH variant of Sidewinder) to get a foothold in general would probably constitute a story in itself. It seems odd, when the USAF was clearly happy with the concept of SARH and IR versions of the AIM-4, and the USN should have appreciated a semi-active missile that could be carried by its early missile-armed interceptors with less drag and weight penalty than the Sparrow, as might approved foreign users (am imagining SARH Sidewinders with an appropriate radar FCS on Australian Mirages, for example). IIRC, motor and aerodynamic developments meant that later versions of Sidewinder weren't much behind the early (beam-riding) Sparrows in performance anyway.
Pardon the very old response.

I asked the question in relation to Sea Sparrows, and the answer I got was: The problem was that the AIM-9C needed a guidance radar. Radars need 400hz power, and usually at pretty impressive voltage, which means a dedicated large generator, which needs its own trailer. All that adds bulk and cost to the system that you don't have compared to using IR guided missiles.
 
The problem was that the AIM-9C needed a guidance radar. Radars need 400hz power, and usually at pretty impressive voltage, which means a dedicated large generator, which needs its own trailer.
There are several other land-based short-range systems which have their own tracking radars and are mobile, so why does the guidance radar suddenly explode the requirement?
 
There are several other land-based short-range systems which have their own tracking radars and are mobile, so why does the guidance radar suddenly explode the requirement?
Makes for a much more expensive system that needs significantly more support in the field. It's not just 4x Sidewinders strapped to the sides of an M45 turret in place of the quad .50cals. Now you need an aircraft radar (a naval AN/APQ-84, I believe), and that needs to be protected from the elements and not beaten to death as you bounce around offroad.

The whole system goes from needing one truck and one trailer to needing 2-3 trucks and trailers depending on where you put the radar, plus a whole specialist training section for the tracking radar and all the spare parts for it.

Oh, and that guidance radar needs to not get drowned in ground clutter or it's useless.
 
Makes for a much more expensive system that needs significantly more support in the field. It's not just 4x Sidewinders strapped to the sides of an M45 turret in place of the quad .50cals. Now you need an aircraft radar (a naval AN/APQ-84, I believe), and that needs to be protected from the elements and not beaten to death as you bounce around offroad.

The whole system goes from needing one truck and one trailer to needing 2-3 trucks and trailers depending on where you put the radar, plus a whole specialist training section for the tracking radar and all the spare parts for it.

Oh, and that guidance radar needs to not get drowned in ground clutter or it's useless.
All of which undermines the essential requirement for Chapparal to be developed and brought into service quickly. Sidewinder, by virtue of being basically as dumb as it's possible to make a guided missile, didn't need to worry all that much about interfaces. Visual target indication, give the gunner a way to hear the acquisition tone, and you're off to the races.
 
All of which undermines the essential requirement for Chapparal to be developed and brought into service quickly. Sidewinder, by virtue of being basically as dumb as it's possible to make a guided missile, didn't need to worry all that much about interfaces. Visual target indication, give the gunner a way to hear the acquisition tone, and you're off to the races.
Thank you for finishing that thought.

Chaparral was an emergency replacement for the Mauler missile system, so it HAD to be brought into service quickly. And since the other systems like the M163 Vulcan ADS also needed a search radar just to be pointed in the right direction, the Chaparral shared that radar.
 
When i have time i will try translating the relevant passages of the book.

In 1982, BGT received the first of several contracts from the BWB for the "Experimental demonstration of the usability of the AIM-9L Sidewinder air-to-air missile in air force object defence". BGT acted as an unofficial general contractor and carried out investigations into the missile's launch behaviour from the ground as well as firing range calculations. BGT also designed a simple experimental ground launcher with four LAU-7/A aircraft launchers that could be adjusted for side and height, which was built by Wehrtechnische Dienststelle 81 in Greding according to BGT's plans. The device, known as the BSG, was fitted with a television camera for target acquisition and search head instruction. A powerful radar fire control device such as the Skyguard from Contraves, which BGT had proposed, was not an option for the Luftwaffe for cost reasons. The BSG was aimed manually via a separately developed, remote control unit and roughly instructed on the target to be engaged. The fine guidance was carried out with the IR seeker of the AIM-9L Sidewinder.

In 1983, the BSG was used to carry out target-acquisition tests in Manching against a variety of targets, followed by the first unguided launching shots in the Meldorf Bay. This was followed in 1984 by guided shots from the Barbara jack-up platform in the Baltic Sea. In the same year, the German Air Force approved the tactical requirement. The successful target-acquisition tests and shots from the experimental launcher led to the company Kuka, experienced in the construction of gun mounts, being commissioned by the BWB to develop and build three ground launchers. BGT was responsible for integrating the AIM-9L Sidewinder into the operational BSG and carrying out the final test firing on Crete in 1986. With a series of successful firings, BGT succeeded in proving that the AIM-9L Sidewinder, with only minor, easily removable adaptations, is also suitable for firing from the ground in addition to the air-to-air role and thus for air force object protection. The guided firings on Crete, which were carried out with the operational ground launcher and target briefing by the Skyguard radar fire control system from Contraves, resulted in direct hits and the destruction of the target drones in all five cases.

The paradox of the AIM-9L/Objektschutz project, which was also disrespectfully referred to in air force circles as the "Russian solution" due to the minimal funding available, was that it was not allowed to cost more than DM 20 million, including the entire development and procurement of 50 ground launchers. The Roland-Patriot agreement concluded between Germany and the USA in 1984 ultimately prevented the introduction of AIM-9L/object protection into the Bundeswehr.
 
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I wonder if the Germans will do their own frankenSAM version of China Lake's Sparrowinder?
 
There are no Sparrows to cobble together.

They could get the Mk-58 rocket-motors from the US, there be quite a few of those around as a result f RIM-7P Sea Sparrows being converted to RIM-162A ESSM block Is.
 
There was already the Swiss Skyguard with Sparrow or Aspide effectors. Why should the system have been designed for Sparrow? It was designed only for Sidewinder. It would have had to be made heavier so Sparrow could carry it.
 
Because Sparrow is heavier it is better to build the launcher heavier too.
 
From 'BGT - Die Geschichte eines Hochtechnologie-Unternehmens':
Pictures of the BGT developed prototype of the BSG (Bodenstartgerät) and of the later KUKA built BSG with 3 Aim-9L and one ASRAAM.
When i have time i will try translating the relevant passages of the book.

Additionally i remember reading somewhere else that the manual acquisition of the target and LOBL with the sidewinder seeker was problematic and BGT proposed to solve this with the ASRAAM which had the advantage of a data link and LOAL.
Are there any images of this mounted on a trailer as claimed by some sources?
 
I think this was SHORAD from Diehl. First intended for four Sidewinders only and the one Sidewinder was replaced with ASRAAM. I am sure that all Sidewinders could be replaced by ASRAAM or any short range IR based missile.

It's in German only, but nowadays deepl and google translate helps.

SHORAD
 

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