Gates may scrap/retire entire F-15C/D fleet?

[John21]

I recently read in the most recent issue of "Combat Aircraft" that just came in the opinion column by Robert F Dorr on the Secdefs cutbacks that he is thinking about retiring the ENTIRE F-15C/D fleet. I have checked on google for any sources for verification but can not find anything. Does anyone out there have any info on this? This is just ******* crazy and stupid!

 

[kcran567]

I'm not an expert on this but maybe the $$ just isnt there anymore. And maybe too much was being spent to justify it. Or the money is going to next generation systems ie post f-22 and 6th generation.

 

[alertken]

There's a quote out there from early G H Bush days in the sense: we do not need F-15+F-18+F-22+F-35...which is surely right?

 

[Colonial-Marine]

Ah, Gates makes me want to hit my head against a wall.

Scrap/retire entire F-15C/D fleet? Maybe if we were building enough F-22As to replace them and continuing development of that aircraft.

 

[Demon Lord Razgriz]

I honestly think they don't know what they want, save replace as many aircraft as inhumanly possible with the JSF. Didn't we learn our lesson on that with the F-111?

 

[BAROBA]

Has this anything to do with the longerons? Or is this an entire different matter?

For more info on the longerons and their failings
http://www.acc.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123078813

 

[sferrin]

I honestly think they don't know what they want, save replace as many aircraft as inhumanly possible with the JSF. Didn't we learn our lesson on that with the F-111?

We also learned a lesson with the F-4. :

 

[Demon Lord Razgriz]

I honestly think they don't know what they want, save replace as many aircraft as inhumanly possible with the JSF. Didn't we learn our lesson on that with the F-111?

We also learned a lesson with the F-4. :

The F-4 had the benefit of being developed over time with variants coming out when they were needed most, F-15 looked to have been going the same route before the end of the Cold War as well cause it wasn't required to do everything at once.

 

[Triton]

Is it safe to assume that Gates is not contemplating retiring the entire F-15C/D fleet since no article documenting this plan has been found?

 

[F-14D]

I honestly think they don't know what they want, save replace as many aircraft as inhumanly possible with the JSF. Didn't we learn our lesson on that with the F-111?

We also learned a lesson with the F-4. :

Although I'm not too happy with the way things are going, the F-111 analogy is not completely relevant, IMHO. In the case of the F-111, McNamara said that it didn't matter what the mission requirements actually were, the F-111 would be designed to fill them. As a result, although it eventually became an effective strike aircraft it never met its goals in any missions. In the case of the F-4, it met its design goals completely. What made it the incredible plane that it was (in my mind the greatest fighter ever) was not that it was the best in every role given to it, it wasn't, but that it could do so many roles so well.

In the case of JSF, because USAF was the biggest customer and had the most political pull, despite all the talk of "jointness" what in effect happened is that it was designed to USAF requirements and the other services basically had to adapt their missions to a USAF aircraft. In the case of the Marines, this wasn't a problem, since as long as it was STOVL, marinized and had their radios it exceeded their needs (I doubt if they really care that much about stealth). In the case of the USN, once it lost the F-14D and A/FX, it was relegated to a follower. So, in JSF they had to take what they could get. JSF does not meet what was originally envisioned for the Navy version. Basically, it's a carrier capable F-35A. The range isn't what was promised (by DoD, not Lockheed--they're building what DoD said), and apparently the C will not get the much more sophisticated and capable avionics than the A that were originally described.

So, the F-35 isn't an F-111. It isn't trying to do vastly different and unrelated missions. All three versions are planned to do basically the same thing, just the landing/takeoff methods are different and Navy and USMC wisely dispensed with the internal gun.

 

[sferrin]

I honestly think they don't know what they want, save replace as many aircraft as inhumanly possible with the JSF. Didn't we learn our lesson on that with the F-111?

We also learned a lesson with the F-4. :

The F-4 had the benefit of being developed over time with variants coming out when they were needed most, F-15 looked to have been going the same route before the end of the Cold War as well cause it wasn't required to do everything at once.

The F-15 was not carrier capable.

 

[bobbymike]

Two stories from Aviation International News seems to contradict the premise of this thread. Although the first story is a couple of years old the latter is 10 days old. These are just two of many "Golden Eagle" stories - F-15 C/D upgrade - that can be found on the web. However, given recent news about potential defense budget cuts then it is, of course possible things may change.

Plenty of life still left in fourth-generation Eagle

By: Curt Epstein
July 14, 2008
Military Aircraft

Boeing’s F-15 Eagle has racked up an enviable 104-0 combat record, as one of the world’s top-flight air-superiority and air-to-ground assault fighters. Although the Eagle made its first flight 36 years ago, the latest U.S. Air Force plan says it won’t be leaving its inventory any time soon. Current considerations call for the F-15C/D to remain in service for another 17 years, and the F-15E for another 27. Out of a total 662 F-15’s left in service, the air force says it will draw down to 177 C/D “Golden Eagle” models, and 224 E “Strike Eagles” to supplement the new F-22 and F-35.

The F-15 has been continuously upgraded throughout its life. Boeing now describes it as a fourth-generation fighter with fifth-generation capabilities. The latest improvements include active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, AIM9X and AIM-120C/D missiles, fused situational awareness displays and off-boresight helmet targeting.

Raytheon was selected last November as the prime contractor for a radar modernization program for 224 F-15Es. The upgrades will allow increased detection ranges and near simultaneous air-to-air and air-to-surface tracking. On the 177 C/D air superiority models to be retained, an upgrade to APG-63(V)3 AESA radar offers approximately 10 times the reliability of the standard APG-63 radar, and one-and-a-half times the previous target acquisition range, according to Mark Bass, Boeing’s vice president of the F-15 program.

Raytheon Continues Upgrades of F-15 Eagle Radar

By: David Donald
September 17, 2010
Defense

Raytheon is currently involved in two major upgrade programs for the U.S. Air Force’s Eagle fleet, providing AESA (active electronically scanned array) radars for both the air defense F-15C/D and the multi-role F-15E. Both programs have recently achieved significant milestones.

Having already pioneered AESA radar in an operational fighter through the installation of APG-63(V)2 radars in a select handful of F-15s based in Alaska, Raytheon is now supplying more sophisticated APG-63(V)3 AESA radars for a greater number of F-15C/D fighters. This program aims to create a force of aircraft that can remain viable in service for many years, partnering F-22s in the air defense mission. Currently Raytheon is contracted to provide APG-63(V)3s for 10 active-duty Air Force and 14 Air National Guard aircraft. The APG-63(V)3 retains some components of the incumbent F-15C/D radar, but adds new processors and the all-important active electronically scanned antenna.

The company has just announced that Boeing and the Air Force have completed installation and acceptance testing of an APG-63(V)3 radar fitted in an F-15C fighter. The tests were accomplished at Langley AFB, Virginia. The aircraft is due to undergo further tests at Nellis AFB, Nevada, and Kadena AB on Okinawa.

Meanwhile, Raytheon has just delivered the first APG-82(V)1 AESA radar to prime contractor Boeing for the U.S. Air Force’s F-15E radar modernization program, which will see the entire fleet being upgraded.

 

[HyperTech]

Only a fool throws away a capability that adds to your combat posture. It is not the airframe alone that provides combat capability but the weapon system. Today the airframe is the least part of the system if it has the maneuver capability of the F-15. It is the radar, weapon controls, missile with autonomous guidance, and integrated flight and fire control that gives it over 90% of it combat capability. Remember all of the not-so-allied nations we have sold but US and European front line combat aircraft to. Our older F-15's and F-18's may be the key to neutralizing these potential threats. The assumption is that we need fewer combat system if we retreat from overseas combat envolvement. But we are not the ones who control whether or not we have overseas combat situations. I am concerned that if December 7, 1941 were to occur today we would seek an apology!

 

[F-14D]

Two stories from Aviation International News seems to contradict the premise of this thread. Although the first story is a couple of years old the latter is 10 days old. These are just two of many "Golden Eagle" stories - F-15 C/D upgrade - that can be found on the web. However, given recent news about potential defense budget cuts then it is, of course possible things may change.

Plenty of life still left in fourth-generation Eagle

By: Curt Epstein
July 14, 2008
Military Aircraft

Boeing’s F-15 Eagle has racked up an enviable 104-0 combat record, as one of the world’s top-flight air-superiority and air-to-ground assault fighters. Although the Eagle made its first flight 36 years ago, the latest U.S. Air Force plan says it won’t be leaving its inventory any time soon. Current considerations call for the F-15C/D to remain in service for another 17 years, and the F-15E for another 27. Out of a total 662 F-15’s left in service, the air force says it will draw down to 177 C/D “Golden Eagle” models, and 224 E “Strike Eagles” to supplement the new F-22 and F-35.

The F-15 has been continuously upgraded throughout its life. Boeing now describes it as a fourth-generation fighter with fifth-generation capabilities. The latest improvements include active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, AIM9X and AIM-120C/D missiles, fused situational awareness displays and off-boresight helmet targeting.

Raytheon was selected last November as the prime contractor for a radar modernization program for 224 F-15Es. The upgrades will allow increased detection ranges and near simultaneous air-to-air and air-to-surface tracking. On the 177 C/D air superiority models to be retained, an upgrade to APG-63(V)3 AESA radar offers approximately 10 times the reliability of the standard APG-63 radar, and one-and-a-half times the previous target acquisition range, according to Mark Bass, Boeing’s vice president of the F-15 program.

Raytheon Continues Upgrades of F-15 Eagle Radar

By: David Donald
September 17, 2010
Defense

Raytheon is currently involved in two major upgrade programs for the U.S. Air Force’s Eagle fleet, providing AESA (active electronically scanned array) radars for both the air defense F-15C/D and the multi-role F-15E. Both programs have recently achieved significant milestones.

Having already pioneered AESA radar in an operational fighter through the installation of APG-63(V)2 radars in a select handful of F-15s based in Alaska, Raytheon is now supplying more sophisticated APG-63(V)3 AESA radars for a greater number of F-15C/D fighters. This program aims to create a force of aircraft that can remain viable in service for many years, partnering F-22s in the air defense mission. Currently Raytheon is contracted to provide APG-63(V)3s for 10 active-duty Air Force and 14 Air National Guard aircraft. The APG-63(V)3 retains some components of the incumbent F-15C/D radar, but adds new processors and the all-important active electronically scanned antenna.

The company has just announced that Boeing and the Air Force have completed installation and acceptance testing of an APG-63(V)3 radar fitted in an F-15C fighter. The tests were accomplished at Langley AFB, Virginia. The aircraft is due to undergo further tests at Nellis AFB, Nevada, and Kadena AB on Okinawa.

Meanwhile, Raytheon has just delivered the first APG-82(V)1 AESA radar to prime contractor Boeing for the U.S. Air Force’s F-15E radar modernization program, which will see the entire fleet being upgraded.

Let us step into the TARDIS and travel back through time and space ~20 years. F-14D: completes development on-time, on-budget and exceeding expectations in areas. It is then canceled.

 

[bobbymike]

Why I stated - "However, given recent news about potential defense budget cuts then it is, of course possible things may change," in my original post.

 

[John21]

Sorry for no responding so swiftly to my own topic....doh. Whatever happens...happens and we can only ever be able to fix it by voting from the polls(or the rooftops). Although I really do not belive the government would ever do something this premature or stupid, and than I think about the A-6 or the EF-111. Sad face.