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Forthcoming: Italian Secret Projects

Circumspect

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WHOA! Great book so far, but here's what's still missing (WRIT-LARGE):

1. Nothing on those Ambrosini 'light-weight' fighter series? How about (at least) some honorable-mention to its finality: 403 "Dardo?"
2. Only one (1) Breda? How 'bout that formidable dive-bomber: B.A.201(?) It flew! Also, why-not some mention of Zappata's: BZ.301 (long-range bomber), BZ.302 (twin-fighter), especially: BZ.303 (twin night-fighter)?
3. Nothing on C.A.N.T.(C.R.D.A.) projects? How 'bout their (monster) Z.511 seaplane? (it flew!) and that Z.1014 bomber-project?
4. Nothing on Fiat projects? Well, that Br.26 (proposal) was a sure aerodynamic-improvement over any Br.20/20bis. And, why-not a quick look at those 'controprop' ideas (on those 'early' G.55 configurations) to say nothing of that 'monster' Cr.44(!)
5. A whole-lot of (your) Piaggio P.(projects) are missing, especially: P.133 (and that's just too obvious)!
6. Nothing on Savoia-Marchetti projects?(!) You're not serious about leaving-out that (monster) SM.95, are you? (I mean the 'real' SM.95, the one that would have competed w/the Z.511 for a Trans-Atlantic mission.)
7. And, what about that Umbra MB.902(?)
8. BTW, some mention should be made on the '6'-series fighters: Fiat G.56, Reggiane Re.206, right?

(CARRY-ON!)
 

Skybolt

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Ok, folks, if ALL ISP wouild have been included, our mandated word count would have gone through the roof... Anyway, some addition:
SM-93 will be in: it flew and it is rather well known, BUT the development phase had some really WEIRD possibilities.... never seen before ANYWHERE, I assure you.
CR-44 is a possibility, and some more info has emerged (on the engine) since my coverage of that in the last issue of Aerofan, but there is absolutely NOTHING on the purpose of that project, its actual submission and so on. Probably it was a multipurpose fighter, but there are no docs on it (still locked in the remote storage of the FIAT archives).
SM-95B (for bomber)... may be included if I'll be able to pare down my word count. Little more infos emerged after my coverage of the type in Aerofan issue 99, notably on type of in-line engines intended for the advanced version: DB-601Es. Anyway, the Alfa 128 version flew and was converted as a transport after the war.
BZ-30X, yes... could be there, derivatives of CANT Z-1018, but you'll be suprised to learn how LITTLE is really known. Breda archives were ruthlessly destroyed in 1950. They even scraped the glass negatives of the photografic archives to gather the little silver still there....
Ditto for Piaggio projects, but the ones that are in will have some surprises, for example a previously unknown configuration of P-119. And the P-127 is a co-protagonist of the cover art....
MB-902 is there (is classed under Bellomo, the name of the designer that was from Guidonia, and Aeronautica Umbra was contracted to build but wasn't enthusiastic to do, angular remote transmission shafts, anyone?), the REAL info on that could fill a column of text... there is the mistery of Alfa 1902, but another column at most (though it would give the opportunity to speak of Alfa 1101 engine).
"6" series, yes, could be, but see first line. They were G-56, Re-2006 and MC-206 AND MC-207.
 

Pelzig

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As Skybolt said, the book has a limited page and word count which demands that we, as authors, be selective in what we include in the debut Italian Secret Projects publication. It simply cannot be all-inclusive and we understand that some may be disappointed that their x-plane(s) of interest was not included.

The selection process followed the formula I used for my Japanese Secret Projects book. Only the most interesting, novel, and in some cases, bizarre, aircraft were chosen. If it looked boring, it probably didn't make it. The main reason for this was to highlight the full gambit of Italian aeronautical thinking and accomplishment and bring it to the reader under one set of covers.

But fear not. If the book is a success, which I know it will be, the possibility of a second volume is very much real. It happened with my Japanese Secret Project book. Support for the title made a second volume a reality (due in 2013).


Circumspect said:
WHOA! Great book so far, but here's what's still missing (WRIT-LARGE):

1. Nothing on those Ambrosini 'light-weight' fighter series? How about (at least) some honorable-mention to its finality: 403 "Dardo?"
2. Only one (1) Breda? How 'bout that formidable dive-bomber: B.A.201(?) It flew! Also, why-not some mention of Zappata's: BZ.301 (long-range bomber), BZ.302 (twin-fighter), especially: BZ.303 (twin night-fighter)?
3. Nothing on C.A.N.T.(C.R.D.A.) projects? How 'bout their (monster) Z.511 seaplane? (it flew!) and that Z.1014 bomber-project?
4. Nothing on Fiat projects? Well, that Br.26 (proposal) was a sure aerodynamic-improvement over any Br.20/20bis. And, why-not a quick look at those 'controprop' ideas (on those 'early' G.55 configurations) to say nothing of that 'monster' Cr.44(!)
5. A whole-lot of (your) Piaggio P.(projects) are missing, especially: P.133 (and that's just too obvious)!
6. Nothing on Savoia-Marchetti projects?(!) You're not serious about leaving-out that (monster) SM.95, are you? (I mean the 'real' SM.95, the one that would have competed w/the Z.511 for a Trans-Atlantic mission.)
7. And, what about that Umbra MB.902(?)
8. BTW, some mention should be made on the '6'-series fighters: Fiat G.56, Reggiane Re.206, right?

(CARRY-ON!)
 

robunos

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A flying Bugatti. Cool.

see here :-

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1100.0/highlight,bugatti.html



cheers,
Robin.
 

Arjen

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Like I said. Cooooool. Thanks :)
 

lark

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Sky.. & Hikoki,

Mouthwatering list... :p
Can't hardly wait.

Success.
 

gatoraptor

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Remember: even though Ettore Bugatti was born in Italy, he moved to France and did ALL of his work there. He, his cars and his aircraft are universally considered to be FRENCH.
 

Pelzig

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I am quite aware that Bugatti was, in the end, a French citizen. I debated on whether or not to include the Bugatti Model 100. But he was Italian born and thus I felt that it was representative of his Italian heritage to be included with the other Italian aeronautical pioneers, regardless of what flag he ultimately wore on his sleeve.

Recently, in preparing the book for final turn-in and in seeking to be at our under our word count (since, at present, we are over), I discussed with my co-author about dropping the Model 100 but he disagreed and thought the Model 100 was a fascinating design which needed to remain.

Cheers,

Ed

gatoraptor said:
Remember: even though Ettore Bugatti was born in Italy, he moved to France and did ALL of his work there. He, his cars and his aircraft are universally considered to be FRENCH.
 

Arjen

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But he was Italian born and thus I felt that it was representative of his Italian heritage to be included with the other Italian aeronautical pioneers, regardless of what flag he ultimately wore on his sleeve.
In that case you might include the designs produced by Bartini in the Soviet Union as well. I am in no way complaining you are including the Bugatti 100. I agree, it is a fascinating design, but it would not be out of place in a volume on French Secret Projects.

So. When's that coming - as though you aren't busy enough? In the meantime, I am most eagerly awaiting publication of Italian Secret Projects. Bugatti 100 included ;D
 

AeroFranz

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I agree in principle. However, the Bartini designs are covered in other books of the 'Secret projects' series- I'd rather get as many airplanes as possible and avoid duplication, even at the cost of coherence :)
 

gatoraptor

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Hikoki1946 said:
I am quite aware that Bugatti was, in the end, a French citizen. I debated on whether or not to include the Bugatti Model 100. But he was Italian born and thus I felt that it was representative of his Italian heritage to be included with the other Italian aeronautical pioneers, regardless of what flag he ultimately wore on his sleeve.

Recently, in preparing the book for final turn-in and in seeking to be at our under our word count (since, at present, we are over), I discussed with my co-author about dropping the Model 100 but he disagreed and thought the Model 100 was a fascinating design which needed to remain.

Cheers,

Ed
While I am very much looking forward to this book, I must respectfully disagree with you on this. I agree that the Bugatti is a fascinating concept, but, IMO, it is entirely out of place in a book dealing with Italian projects, expecially if its inclusion means omitting other content which is definitively Italian. I don't know if there would be enough material to merit a book on French Secret Projects, but if so, that is where this design belongs. (And every mention of Bugatti's automobiles that I have ever seen has considered them to be French designs. Bugatti's Italian birth is universally discounted. And, like Bugatti's cars, the model 100 is always illustrated in French blue.)
 

Pelzig

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You make a compelling argument against including the Model 100 in the book and in considering it, I'll discuss it with my co-author and see what he thinks on the topic in light of your comments. At worst, its removal will make it a easier task to come in on target for word count. At best, it may allow inclusion of another purely Italian aircraft.

As for a French secret projects book, I am aware of one being discussed for post-1945 French projects. I myself put together a proposal for a pre- and WW2 French secret project book which has not been taken up at this time by any publisher. But, who knows what the future may hold.

Cheers,

Ed

gatoraptor said:
Hikoki1946 said:
I am quite aware that Bugatti was, in the end, a French citizen. I debated on whether or not to include the Bugatti Model 100. But he was Italian born and thus I felt that it was representative of his Italian heritage to be included with the other Italian aeronautical pioneers, regardless of what flag he ultimately wore on his sleeve.

Recently, in preparing the book for final turn-in and in seeking to be at our under our word count (since, at present, we are over), I discussed with my co-author about dropping the Model 100 but he disagreed and thought the Model 100 was a fascinating design which needed to remain.

Cheers,

Ed
While I am very much looking forward to this book, I must respectfully disagree with you on this. I agree that the Bugatti is a fascinating concept, but, IMO, it is entirely out of place in a book dealing with Italian projects, expecially if its inclusion means omitting other content which is definitively Italian. I don't know if there would be enough material to merit a book on French Secret Projects, but if so, that is where this design belongs. (And every mention of Bugatti's automobiles that I have ever seen has considered them to be French designs. Bugatti's Italian birth is universally discounted. And, like Bugatti's cars, the model 100 is always illustrated in French blue.)
 

gatoraptor

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Hikoki1946 said:
As for a French secret projects book, I am aware of one being discussed for post-1945 French projects. I myself put together a proposal for a pre- and WW2 French secret project book which has not been taken up at this time by any publisher. But, who knows what the future may hold.

Cheers,

Ed
Would there be enough material for two French books? Considering that, unlike the other major combatants, their aircraft industry was nonexistent through most of WW II, I would think that one book might suffice for the entire history of French aviation. But whichever, one or two books, I'll be interested.....

(I'd like to see the French book also cover developments of French designs that may have taken place in other countries, such as the ultimate Swiss version of the Morane-Saulnier 406, the D-3803.)
 

Pelzig

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The list provided below was a sampling off my French secret projects proposal. Currently, it sits with two publishers.

Mignet HM-280
Delanne 160 fighter
CAPRA R-90 twin-hull flying boat (Roger Robert 1942 design)
MATRA R-130 ramjet aircraft
Fauvel AV-31 flying wing transport
Albessard 'Triavion'
Alliet-Larivière 'Allar' 4
Arsenal Air Delanne 10C-2 two-seat fighter
Arsenal VB-10 (and Arsenal VB.15) fighter
Arsenal VG-70 (1948 jet using Junkers Jumo 004)
Bassou FB 31 'Rubis'
Besson MB-11 quadraplane flying boat
Blériot XXV canard/pusher observation plane
Blériot XXXIII canard/pusher recreational plane
Blériot Bl-125 airliner
Bloch MB-81 ambulance aircraft
Aile volante Bonnel experimental aircraft with circular wing
Breguet-Dorand 'Gyroplane' helicopter (1933)
Carmier-Arnoux 'Simplex' racer
Caudron C.670 light bomber
Dewoitine D-33 'Trait d'union' record breaker
Dewoitine D-750 torpedo bomber
Gastambide-Levavasseur variable aircraft (1919)
Papin Rouilly Gyroptère
Riffard RM-1 type RDP rocket interceptor (1917)
Chappedelaine Gyroptère
Fauvel flying wing designs (1929-1943)
Maurice Roy aerial torpedo
Dorand VTOL Mailplane
ANF-Les Mureaux Bn 4 night bomber (based on the Italian Stipa designs)
Edouard Albert assault fighter
Gourdou G11 C-1 variable fighter
Breguet transocean helicopter (1936)
SNCASE SE 500 twin-engine bomber
Georges Litvinenko Track Laying Wing fighter
Kolko ACA-5
Riffard Machine D jet project (1941)
Riffard Tilt-Rotor project
Roger Robert twin-engine, twin-boom aircraft
Roger Robert flying wing (1942)
Dorand G.II/G20 anti-submarine helicopter
Gérin 'Varivol' variable aircraft
Payen Pa22/1R ramjet aircraft
Payen Pa-59 "Aldebaran" VTOL
Chauviere Gyroptere (1927)
Marmonier tilt rotor design (1935)
Margoulis tilt rotor triplane (1922)
Andre Melin flying boat (1913)
Leduc 0.10 ramjet
Levasseur PL.8 "L'Oiseau Blanc"
Levasseur PL 201 twin-boom float plane
Lioré et Olivier LeO-48 technology demonstrator (1941)
Loire 210 seaplane fighter
Loire 301 recce aircraft
Makhonine Mak-10 variable aircraft
SNCAC NC.2001 "Abeille" helicopter (1946)
Morane-Saulnier MS.470 (1944 trainer prototype under Vichy gov't)
Nieuport-Delage NiD-941 tailess, pusher-prop sport plane (1934)
Payen Pa.112 fighter
Payen P.321 heavy fighter
S.A.B. (Bordelaise) AB-21 four-engine heavy bomber
Salmson-Béchereau SB-3bis racer
S.C.A.N. 20 seaplane (prototype under Vichy gov't)
S.F.C.A. Maillet 21 sport/passenger plane (1935)
S.N.C.A.C. NC-130 high-altitude military research aircraft (1939)
SNCAC NC.1070/1071 naval bomber (1947)
S.N.C.A.O. CAO-700 four-engine bomber (1940)
S.N.C.A.O. CAO-200 fighter
S.N.C.A.S.E. SE-200 six-engine transport flying boat
S.N.C.A.S.E. SE-700 autogyro (1945)
Hanriot H.110/H.115 fighter (1934)
S.R.A.P. T-7 transport w/ reverse biplaneform
Tampier 'Avion automobile' flying car (1921)
Schmitt variable incidence biplane (1913)

As for the post-WW2 to present French project book, last I saw the proposal (it was not my own), it was pretty substantial.

Cheers,

Ed

gatoraptor said:
Would there be enough material for two French books? Considering that, unlike the other major combatants, their aircraft industry was nonexistent through most of WW II, I would think that one book might suffice for the entire history of French aviation. But whichever, one or two books, I'll be interested.....

(I'd like to see the French book also cover developments of French designs that may have taken place in other countries, such as the ultimate Swiss version of the Morane-Saulnier 406, the D-3803.)
 

Skybolt

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Well, during the WW2, the French designers produced a LOT of projects, if not to keep the workers busy (but that was the same for German ones...). Just have a look to the Cuny's book on Breguet for confirmation. And if you go down to 1945 included....
 

Circumspect

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Messrs. Hikoki1946 and Skybolt,

Needless to say, your book's Dedication-page (Italian Secret Projects) must recognize the two (most deserving!) predecessors: Giorgio Apostolo and Jonathan Thompson.
 

Pelzig

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Actually, Giorgio Apostolo is involved with the Italian Secret Project book. While not a writer for the book (myself and Skybolt are), he has assisted with fact checking and review of the chapters for accuracy and he is also generously providing photographs and imagery for the book. Thus, his name will be seen on the cover as one of the co-creators of the book. As for Mr. Thompson, his works have been used as resources and will feature in the credits and bibliography.

Cheers,

Ed

Circumspect said:
Messrs. Hikoki1946 and Skybolt,

Needless to say, your book's Dedication-page (Italian Secret Projects) must recognize the two (most deserving!) predecessors: Giorgio Apostolo and Jonathan Thompson.
 

hesham

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Hi,

there is also many unknown old designs;


such as Ambrosini SAI-25 fighter,SAI-8 recce flying boat,SAI-9 recce bomber,
SAI-503 fighter,Breda Ba.92 & Ba.93 trainers,BZ.401 light recce bomber
seaplane,BZ.408 float version of BZ.308,CANSA FC.11 trainer,FC.14 developed
from FC.12,CANT Z.1003 land version of Z.506C,Z.1017 torpedo bomber,
Z.510 recce float bomber,CMASA BS.12 four engined seaplane,CMASA
J.S.54 flying boat,Macchi MC.203 recce seaplane,MC.300 fighter,
Piaggio P.25 biplane,P.110 recce seaplane and Umbra AUT.45 bomber.
 

Pelzig

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Hesham:

Page constraints limit the number of aircraft we can discuss and so we had to pick and choose which to include in the debut book and have the ability to give a comprehensive history for each. We could have crammed as many as we could but that would have limited each plane to a short blurb and specs which would be a disservice to those seeking complete historical information.

If the debut Italian Secret Projects book proves a success, I'm sure the publisher will consider a second volume.

Cheers,

Ed


hesham said:
Hi,

there is also many unknown old designs;such as Ambrosini SAI-25 fighter,
SAI-8 recce flying boat,SAI-9 recce bomber,SAI-503 fighter,Breda
Ba.92 & Ba.93 trainers,BZ.401 light recce bomber seaplane,BZ.408
float version of BZ.308,CANSA FC.11 trainer,FC.14 developed from
FC.12,CANT Z.1003 land version of Z.506C,Z.1017 torpedo bomber,
Z.510 recce float bomber,CMASA BS.12 four engined seaplane,CMASA
J.S.54 flying boat,Macchi MC.203 recce seaplane,MC.300 fighter,
Piaggio P.25 biplane,P.110 recce seaplane and Umbra AUT.45 bomber.
 

hesham

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Yes Hikoki,

but we must consider that,the more projects means more selling for
the book.
 

AeroFranz

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Hikoki1946 said:
If the debut Italian Secret Projects book proves a success, I'm sure the publisher will consider a second volume.

I think you guys are on the right track. I certainly hope there will be a second volume to afford you the possibility of treating additional aircraft at length.
In bocca al lupo! ;D
 

Skybolt

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Hopefully, there will be a second tome, but surely will not include the MC.300, for the very simple reason that it never existed a project sporting that designation. Normaly the MC.300 spurious progressive is assigned to the Mc.205 Bifusoliera. For more on this see here: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5420.msg43245.html#msg43245 and here http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2411.msg20201.html#msg20201and the link there included. The mythical existence of an MC.300 is naturally due to the fact that an MC.301 DID exist (one of the 1938-39 Caccia Combattimento competition tenders). No one knows WHY Macchi decided to start the "300" series form 301, but so it was. BTW, the proponents of the MC.205 Bifusoliera = MC.300 theory fail consistently to explain why a mid-1943 project would have been assigned an earlier progressive than a 1939 project. There are cases of much later progressives assigned to aircrafts that are near contemporary, but the MC.300 designation simply doesn't make sense. Moreover, working from analogy with things done by other companies, like Savoia (the progression S.55, S.66, S.77, SM.155 and SM.166, in which the successive twin-hull seaplanes were initially designated at 11 numerals progession, and then at 111 numerals) I would have expected an MC.305 designation (the 300 series was originally devoted to multi-engine airplanes). But this is academical, as Mr.Tyrell said.
 

Maveric

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Yes foiling, I´ll wait also for news from french projects.
 

Deino

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foiling said:
I love the idea of a book (or two) on French aircaft projects.

Me too ! ... besides that will this "Italian S. P." book be in a similar way to Tony's books ??

Deino
 

Pelzig

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Well, I'm working on at least getting a French secret project book for pre- and WW2 designs into print. Proposals are out there but no bites, yet.

foiling said:
I love the idea of a book (or two) on French aircaft projects.
 

Pelzig

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Deino:

The Italian secret project book will follow the same format as previous secret project books from Midland.

Cheers,

Ed


Deino said:
foiling said:
I love the idea of a book (or two) on French aircaft projects.

Me too ! ... besides that will this "Italian S. P." book be in a similar way to Tony's books ??

Deino
 

Pelzig

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Bartini was not actually Italian. He was Austro-Hungarian (today, his birthplace is in Croatia). He did study in Italy but by birth, he was not Italian. He did, however, get mention in the Italian Secret Projects book as his 1957 A-57 seaplane bomber design was one of the only designs I could find which came somewhat close in scope to Pegna's flying wing seaplane bomber though the A-57 was a delta-winged design rather than a flying wing or BWB concept. Still, it was the nearest I could locate to Pegna's overall idea which was not wholly conventional. If anyone knows of a design which is closer.... ;D

As for when, the book is currently slated for a early 2013 release and will follow the standard Midland secret project book format.

Myself and Skybolt will be turning in the final manuscript and imagery for the book this month.

Cheers,

Ed

Arjen said:
But he was Italian born and thus I felt that it was representative of his Italian heritage to be included with the other Italian aeronautical pioneers, regardless of what flag he ultimately wore on his sleeve.
In that case you might include the designs produced by Bartini in the Soviet Union as well. I am in no way complaining you are including the Bugatti 100. I agree, it is a fascinating design, but it would not be out of place in a volume on French Secret Projects.

So. When's that coming - as though you aren't busy enough? In the meantime, I am most eagerly awaiting publication of Italian Secret Projects. Bugatti 100 included ;D
 

Pelzig

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I don't disagree! ;D

But, we only had approximately 160 pages to deal with, to include indexes, forward, prefaces, etc. Just my portion of the manuscript accounted for 87 pages of raw text, without formatting. And I only discussed about half of the aircraft in the book. So, 160 pages goes fast. True, the triple column and font formatting found in Midland's secret project books lowers the page count but add in the photos and/or graphics and you rise up in page count again. Also keep in mind that there is a word count cap.

We wanted to avoid cramming in as many projects as possible into the pages which, by consequence, would limit the text information to short, brief (and dry) paragraphs and limiting the photographs to one or two. The history of the planes chosen is too rich to cut short.

We are sure the success of this book will be the catalyst for more. ;D

Cheers!


hesham said:
Yes Hikoki,

but we must consider that,the more projects means more selling for
the book.
 

Skybolt

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Actually, I'm managing to reinstate a couple or paragraphs on some projects that I thought I'd had to cut: for example the additional Italian "Mosquito" clones....
 

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The post-war French secret project (FSP) books are my job. I also tried to interest the publisher in beginning with the thirties, but only post-1945 projects were voted "in". There should be two books, one about fighters and the other about everything else, mostly bombers but also flying saucers, flying jeeps, spaceplanes, attack helos (I hope) etc...

JCC
 

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JC Carbonel said:
The post-war French secret project (FSP) books are my job. ...

I would pre-order ! Jean Cuny did a great job, but there really is the need for an update,
as quite a lot of material has come to light in the meantime. Would be good, if all those types,
that aren't that glamorous (trainers, transports) could be mentioned in depth, too, but
probably that's a question of demand and I'm afraid, commercial expectations may be
against it. Nevertheless, good success !
 

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Trainers, transports will probably get a limited presence in the FSP books. I already had to fight to get helicopters in!

JCC
 

Pelzig

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I wonder why this is. I also tried to interest two publishers with French projects prior and up to 1945 and no takers. To me, with post-1945 projects being worked out, it would be the perfect bookend for such a work.

Ah, well. Publishers have to go with what they think will sell.

Cheers,

Ed


JC Carbonel said:
The post-war French secret project (FSP) books are my job. I also tried to interest the publisher in beginning with the thirties, but only post-1945 projects were voted "in". There should be two books, one about fighters and the other about everything else, mostly bombers but also flying saucers, flying jeeps, spaceplanes, attack helos (I hope) etc...

JCC
 

JC Carbonel

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I have had a series of articles in Air Magazine about mostly pre-WW1 / WW1 not-really-flying machines and most I got were complaints about "why talk about aircraft that never flew"...

subjects evoked :
French : Filippi helicopter (n°42), Papin-Rouilly Gyroptère (n°30), Blériot VTOLs (n°38) , Damblanc & Lacoin's Alérion (n°47); Félix Faure's autovolant helicopter (N°46); the Vaugean-Gargulio airship (N°45), Chappedelaine's Gyraptère (n°40), French pre-WW1 disc-shaped airship projects (n°36)
US : Floating Islands (N°52); Perry's helicopter (N°32); Hewitt's helicopter (n°33)
Austro-Hungary : WW1 helicopters (n°48)
British : Porter's flying machines (N°39)

I have many more in storage but it is really difficult to pass through an editor who initially requested "built" aircraft and now seems to want "flying" aircraft.

JCC
 

Pelzig

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I still don't get it. Look at all the books on the the Luftwaffe projects and the vast amount of them never went past the paper plan stage. In my own book on Japanese x-planes, 26 of the discussed designs never got past the paper or mock-up stage.

Seems silly that people would not want to read about French x-planes, built or not. I'll keep at it. If I have a breakthrough, we should team up. ;D

Cheers,

Ed


JC Carbonel said:
I have had a series of articles in Air Magazine about mostly pre-WW1 / WW1 not-really-flying machines and most I got were complaints about "why talk about aircraft that never flew"...

subjects evoked :
French : Filippi helicopter (n°42), Papin-Rouilly Gyroptère (n°30), Blériot VTOLs (n°38) , Damblanc & Lacoin's Alérion (n°47); Félix Faure's autovolant helicopter (N°46); the Vaugean-Gargulio airship (N°45), Chappedelaine's Gyraptère (n°40), French pre-WW1 disc-shaped airship projects (n°36)
US : Floating Islands (N°52); Perry's helicopter (N°32); Hewitt's helicopter (n°33)
Austro-Hungary : WW1 helicopters (n°48)
British : Porter's flying machines (N°39)

I have many more in storage but it is really difficult to pass through an editor who initially requested "built" aircraft and now seems to want "flying" aircraft.

JCC
 

JC Carbonel

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I believe people want to read about what they know and can relate to. WW2 and the nazis they can relate to it... so "alternate" designs are OK. Things like the Papin-Rouilly chopper, the Chappedelaine machine or the Vaugean-Garguilio airship go through the roof on the weirdness scale but they never had a chance to participate in a war (even an "alternate" one) and they don't have names who mean something to a lot of people like Messerschmitt or Lockheed....
So they are more difficult to sell.

Airfix people used to say "no gun, no sales" and Heller people said "a well known manufacturer and a well-known pilot, that's assured sales".

Here we have obscure names at a time when the challenge was first to take-off and land ok. Bombs and machine-guns were a long way off even for thirties' projects. So these designs don't have aggresiveness/predator appeal (loads/equipments are often not even mentionned in contemporary documents even when the textual part refers to a possible military use). Later on, the challenge was more on military ability, but no longer on flying.

It is my feeling that the FSP series of books focus on the fifities-sixties because that was the Cold War period. So everything in them can be pictured in Cold war scenarios.

That's why pre-WW2 projects and prototypes are difficult to sell. Hey ! you don't see much on pre-WW1 German aircraft as well! I had a recent talk with Mr Opdycke who wrote the excellent book on pre-WW1 French aircraft and he told me the publisher had envisionned doing a series of "pre-WW1" books. But only the "British" pre-WW1 book appeared.

But don't worry I have a project with a publisher regarding early designs. I shall let you know when the contract is signed .

JCC
 

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