Depth Charge testing - twin pistols killed pilot

robinbird

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MAEE tested for the Royal Navy depth charges fitted with two pistols, one for shallow firing, the other for deep. I have an account, by someone who served with the MAEE, that this experimental depth charge exploded prematurely during dropping and killed an experienced test pilot. He was Flt. Lt. Carswell in Wellington NA929 on October 17. 1945. MAEE lost another crew in Mosquito DZ579 on October 25, 1945, in a similar accident. Any info on this twin pistol depth charge appreciated and was it adopted for use? Were both accidents due to two pistol experimental depth charges?
 
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MAEE tested for the Royal Navy depth charges fitted with two pistols, one for shallow firing, the other for deep.

I'm not seeing the logic here. MAEE would be the appropriate establishment for testing airborne depth charges, but given the date - 1945 - why would anyone be using an airborne depth charge against deep targets? Aircraft didn't have the ability to localise a deeply submerged submarine sufficiently accurately for a depth charge attack to be worthwhile at this point - the sonobuoy was just about in experimental service, but even that would only give bearing, not depth. To determine depth you needed an attack sonar with the Q-attachment, and that needed a ship, if you have a ship you don't need aircraft delivered depth-charges because you have the much better Hedgehog and Squid. Aircraft attacks on submarines were purely focused on submarines caught on the surface and in the process of crash-diving down to shallow depth. If you wanted a combined shallow and deep attack capability then airborne Hedgehog (which was a thing) would seem a simpler, more reliable option. While it would be perfectly feasible to have a selectable pistol, you would need extra wiring into the bomb-bay to allow that selection at or before the time of attack. If it isn't successful at the time of attack, then you don't need two pistols in the depth-charge at once, just two that can be chosen between while bombing up the aircraft.
 
In 1945 it would be the Mark XI air dropped depth charge being tested presumably? I'd be checking Mosquito books for the aeroplane losses.

Presume you've read

The Seaplane Years​

A history of the Marine & Armament Experimental Establishment, 1920-1924 and Marine Aircraft Experiment Establishment 1924-1956
Author: Tim Mason
 
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MAEE tested for the Royal Navy depth charges fitted with two pistols, one for shallow firing, the other for deep. I have an account, by someone who served with the MAEE, that this experimental depth charge exploded prematurely during dropping and killed an experienced test pilot. He was Flt. Lt. Carswell in Wellington NA929 on October 17. 1945. MAEE lost another crew in Mosquito DZ579 on October 25, 1945, in a similar accident. Any info on this twin pistol depth charge appreciated and was it adopted for use? Were both accidents due to two pistol experimental depth charges?
Reports on the losses of these two aircraft are noted below but it looks like the two are not connected to trials of the same weapon.

Mosquito DZ579 was a Highball aircraft, one of the few left in Britain after 618 squadron left for Australia in Oct 1944. Highball was a smaller version of the Barnes Wallis designed Upkeep bouncing bomb used on the Dams Raid by 617 squadron in 1943. Never used operationally but tested into the post war years on a number of aircraft types as well as the Mosquito eg Grumman Avenger. A Mosquito could carry two.


Footage here of its trials use later in this video.

And re the loss of Wellington NA929

Work was being carried out on a Mk.XV Airborne Depth Charge designed to tackle snorkelling U-boats. It had two pistols set to 20 and 50 feet. It was cancelled in 1945. You will find some details here if you scroll down the page.

 
MAEE tested for the Royal Navy depth charges fitted with two pistols, one for shallow firing, the other for deep.

I'm not seeing the logic here. MAEE would be the appropriate establishment for testing airborne depth charges, but given the date - 1945 - why would anyone be using an airborne depth charge against deep targets? Aircraft didn't have the ability to localise a deeply submerged submarine sufficiently accurately for a depth charge attack to be worthwhile at this point - the sonobuoy was just about in experimental service, but even that would only give bearing, not depth. To determine depth you needed an attack sonar with the Q-attachment, and that needed a ship, if you have a ship you don't need aircraft delivered depth-charges because you have the much better Hedgehog and Squid. Aircraft attacks on submarines were purely focused on submarines caught on the surface and in the process of crash-diving down to shallow depth. If you wanted a combined shallow and deep attack capability then airborne Hedgehog (which was a thing) would seem a simpler, more reliable option. While it would be perfectly feasible to have a selectable pistol, you would need extra wiring into the bomb-bay to allow that selection at or before the time of attack. If it isn't successful at the time of attack, then you don't need two pistols in the depth-charge at once, just two that can be chosen between while bombing up the aircraft.
Aircraft launched sonobuoys began to enter operational service in 1942 and their first submarine kill assist was in June 1944. An aircraft from the USS Bogue sank Japanese cargo sub I-52 in the Atlantic.

Some RAF Liberators also began to use them later in 1944.

Paper on their development here
 
Thank you. The MAEE Wellington was testing a two pistol depth charge for the Royal Navy, ironically after MAEE had returned to Felixstowe. My source are personally type notes by MAEE chief armament officer Dennis Tanner. He was scheduled to fly with Stuart Carswell that fateful day but was delayed at Felixstowe. Tanner and Carswell were friends and regular flew together. I accept depth charges were probably obsolete by then, likewise Highball as tested by Mosquito DZ579. The accidents happened within 8 days of another the only two fateful crashes while dropping stores suffered by the MAEE during WW2, excluding 'flying accidents.' That's why I wonder if the Highball dropped by DZ579 was also experimental in some way. I have the personal histories of some of those killed, so sad they survived the war to die a month after it ended and when MAEE was conducting the last of such trials. RIP. I count myself lucky to have Tanner's account of his time with the MAEE. It includes times he flew with Carswell usually from Prestwick. Thanks again for your MAEE unveiling-12 01.07.17.jpg feedback. Dad also served and flew with the MAEE during war. My research findings are passed on to Helensburgh Heritage Trust. In recent times a memorial to RAF Helensburgh/MAEE was erected overlooking the Gareloch.
 
Depth charges were by no means obsolete in 1945. Development continued postwar resulting eventually in nuclear depth charges. The homing torpedo is not necessarily the answer to all problems. The RN continues (or did a few years ago) to have a stock to use from its Wildcat and Merlin helicopters. It was probably just that development of the Mk.XV was stopped in 1945 as either not being seen as required, or that the fusing issues were too difficult to solve, or that the money was no longer available.

Dropping bouncing bombs from low level was a dangerous business. Some of the footage of Upkeep tests in 1943 show the water plume ripping the elevator off a Lancaster. A similar accident to your Mosquito. Even worse was the experience of the US A-26C that got too low in a test and had its entire tailplane ripped off as the bomb bounced. Horrible footage to watch. The crew stood no chance.
View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=F-0czoTQOTc


DZ579 would be an interesting aircraft to see a photo of, but sadly few photos exist of Highball aircraft. One of a batch of 27 converted for Highball by Vickers Armstrong Weybridge and De Havilland in 1943. DZ579 was one that underwent further modification in Aug-Sept 1944 by Vickers Weybridge, Airspeed and / or Marshall’s of Cambridge with more powerful Merlin 24 engines with 4 bladed props, arrester hook, new windscreen, armour plating and a power unit to spin the Highball bombs. Some of its sister conversions were caught in the background of photos while en route to Australia.

 
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MAEE tested for the Royal Navy depth charges fitted with two pistols, one for shallow firing, the other for deep.
Work was being carried out on a Mk.XV Airborne Depth Charge designed to tackle snorkelling U-boats.
Ah, schnorkelling, that's what I wasn't seeing. And 'deep' being 50', not the 250'-300' I'd assumed.
 
Depth charges were by no means obsolete in 1945. Development continued postwar resulting eventually in nuclear depth charges. The homing torpedo is not necessarily the answer to all problems. The RN continues (or did a few years ago) to have a stock to use from its Wildcat and Merlin helicopters.
Squid, and later Limbo, being examples of post-war use of ahead-fired depth-charges that continued through into the '80s, it's just the over-the-side kind of depth-charge that's mostly dropped out of use, There's a presumed role for airborne depth charges in shallow water, where air-dropped torpedoes might not be viable. The Russian RBU series of rocket thrown depth charges are still in use, and with an interesting range of variations for homing and anti-torpedo versions. The Swedes have a range of thrown and air-dropped depth-charges they use for hunting Russian submarines prowling around their naval bases, which presumably range from non-lethal up to warshots (though I was slightly appalled to read last night that the Swedish ASW NH-90s aren't actually armed).
 
The Mk 11 Mod 3 depth-charge still listed for the Wildcat fairly recently as an option but I've never seen a Wildcat photo with it actually carrying one and I suppose the stock of Mk 11s must be dwindling as production must have stopped a long time ago and shelf life won't be forever.

Air-dropped depth-charges are still useful for shallow waters where homing torpedoes can still struggle to get a good lock and for immediate response if you don't want to/can't wait for the homing torpedo's electronic gizzards to do their thing.

As DWG says, ship-launched depth-charges largely died out. The concept of trying to pass over a modern SSK armed with guided torpedoes to drop them is rather foolhardy.
I presume smaller anti-diver charges are still a thing though (the Russians have smaller RBUs/dispensers for that).

Highball was deadly to its own crews in a whole manner of ways - the splash, danger of a rogue unbalanced rotating bomb ripping free, having to fly low and level right into a flak-festooned target... the crews of 618 Squadron dodged a bullet there. Had they gone in against Tirptiz they didn't rate their chances of survival very high.
 
MAEE test pilot Stuart Carswell made dops of 250 lb depth charges using Mosquito ML899 duringNovember 1943. Height of drops were 50 ft above sea level at 300 knots. 'We used a radio altimeter as it was difficult to judge our heigh over water'-Sqd Ldr Dennis Tanner. Carswell was killed making that depth charge drop from Wellington NA929. RAF Helensburgh/MAEE was also involved with Highball trials at Loch Striven.
 
Swedish NH-90s not armed ? Would this exclude crew hand-dropping eg long-fused 'concussion grenades', non-lethal against subs, but sufficient to state, ''Playtime's over, now Eff Off !"
 
Swedish NH-90s not armed ? Would this exclude crew hand-dropping eg long-fused 'concussion grenades', non-lethal against subs, but sufficient to state, ''Playtime's over, now Eff Off !"
Usually blasting a sub with active sonar is enough to suggest that.

I still cringe when I hear a P-3 or old C-130 fly overhead.
 

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