DDG(X) - Arleigh Burke Replacement

[johnpjones1775]

6 crew on the gun loading? Its like WW2! Why would they not switch to an autoloader? Not like modern navies don't have recruitment issues.

At least until a new mount is available. But sounds like traverse speed is a big problem.

Mushroom farms on a new ship or comparing with existing ones? But Mk-41 timing limits would also affect CAMM inserts, so maybe better to use dedicated ExLS instead of inserts. Presume ALBATROS is dedicated launchers.

Thats a pretty good system.

The gun itself is auto loaded. Feeding the auto loader is done manually…do you have any idea how large a 5” deep mag on a Burke is? The automation necessary is possible but it would be ridiculously complicated and require a lot of man hours of maintenance, and you still have to have the man power on board in case the automated feeding mechanism breaks.

As to my question earlier, a deep mag is around d 700-1000sq feet.

 

[johnpjones1775]

Physics is still physics. The basics of artillery barrel wear have not changed in most of century AFAIK. You can provide active cooling to change that (eg the cancelled Crusader system) but gun barrels get hot.

I feel like the original point of my argument has now been taken wildly out of context: a poster stated that a 5” mount could continuously fire at 20 rounds/minute for ~40 minutes (the full 680 round magazine) until the ammunition the ship was exhausted, and I disagree. And based on some of the information posted here, I still disagree that is a physical possibility.

I consider the issue closed.

Yes a 5” gun can shoot for 40 minutes straight.

If you were talking about barrel wear rather than over heating, then it doesn’t matter how long you shoot for. 40 minutes x 20 rpm=800 rounds.
A 5” gun barrel can handle 8000 rounds, assuming you haven’t already fired 7200 or more rounds through it previously.

I literally shared an example with a source of mk42 and mk45 5” guns shooting more or less for an hour and a half continuously 40 years ago. We literally know that’s possible…

Edit
I looked on YouTube and can only find 2 videos showing people uploading in the deep mag.
I was able to see one person’s name tape, being a GM2 it’s very unlikely it was ‘training’ between that, the pace, body language, and the color of the projos being loaded in that one I can almost guarantee that wasn’t video wasn’t taken as at sea training, or even in port training, but uploading to the mount’s ready drum.

The other was a short, it still didn’t show anyone moving with a purpose, but since they were loading BL&P projos into the hoist that may have been during a PAC fire. (Though no sound of the gun firing, and no shaking on camera makes me think it was just topping the drum off after a PAC fire rather than legitimate training.)

 

[TomS]

The gun itself is auto loaded. Feeding the auto loader is done manually…do you have any idea how large a 5” deep mag on a Burke is? The automation necessary is possible but it would be ridiculously complicated and require a lot of man hours of maintenance, and you still have to have the man power on board in case the automated feeding mechanism breaks.

The Mk 45 Ammunition Handling System on the RN Type 26 does exactly this. We'll see how it works, but they're doing it. My sense is that if it fails, well, you've got 20 rounds or so in the drum.

View: https://youtu.be/u1msIqd0t8w?si=68sCN7ScEZdlFNYl

 

[johnpjones1775]

The Mk 45 Ammunition Handling System on the RN Type 26 does exactly this. We'll see how it works, but they're doing it. My sense is that if it fails, well, you've got 20 rounds or so in the drum.

View: https://youtu.be/u1msIqd0t8w?si=68sCN7ScEZdlFNYl

Yeah, great you have a minute of shooting if it fails.

I’m sure the Marines ashore will really appreciate that, or the air threats coming in will slow down to allow other weapon systems to step up to engage them.

 

[MadRat]

Trivia time for Arleigh Burkes regarding guns and missiles.

Flights I, II, and IIA use the AN/SPY-1D PESA 3D radar. Flight III uses the AN/SPY-6(V)1 AESA 3D radar. SPY-1 or SPY-6 provide the 5" gun its information for fusing. AN/SPS-67 (DDG-51 – DDG-86) and AN/SPQ-9B (on DDG-119 and onward) can augment the main radar for engagement of a surface target. Thirty Arleigh Burkes still have 5-inch/62-caliber Mark 45 guns that are not Mod 4, and depend on the Mk 46 optical sight system for fire control. Forty four Arleigh Burkes have the Mod 4's, and forty of the them use the same Mk 46 optical sight system. Only three Arleigh Burkes have the Mk 20 electro-optical sight system. Both LCS programs and Legend class cutters also use the Mk 20 electro-optical sight system. The Mark 45 Mod 4 can fire a munition called the Cargo Round, which gives the Mod 4 a range of over 20 nautical miles (37 km). For long range ship defense they can engage with semi-active radar homing (SARH) Standard SM-2 (RIM-66 SM-2MR or RIM-156 SM-2ER Block IV). Most ships in this class carry RIM-162 ESSM Block 2's for shorter ranges that also use active radar homing. Due to ships only having three AN/SPG-62 X band continuous wave fire-control radars for terminal target illumination, up to three targets may be simultaneously intercepted. RIM-161 SM-3 SAM also depends on the AN/SPG-62 for terminal guidance but AN/SPY-1 radar handles mid-course guidance. RIM-174 Standard ERAM can use AN/SPG-62 with its dual-mode seeker, but also uses active radar homing. RIM-161 and RIM-174 are the primary options against hypersonic weapons. RIM-161 can handle exo-atmospheric targets, but RIM-174 is limited to endo-atmospheric targets. Missiles that get past the SAMs can be engaged by the 5" gun, 20 mm Phalanx CIWS, and RIM-116 Rolling Airframe Missile (RAM). RIM-116 depends on a Mk 49 Guided Missile Launching System (GMLS) for targeting and Mk-144 Guided Missile Launcher (GML) for storage. Mk-144 stores 21 RIM-116 missiles. SeaRAM uses the Mk-15 Block 1B (CRDC) from the Phalanx and the 20 mm M61 Vulcan rotary cannon is replaced by an 11-cell RAM launcher to produce an autonomous system—one which does not need any external information to engage threats. SeaRAM is being back fit to older Arleigh Burkes. The more recent Optical Dazzling Interdictor, Navy (aka ODIN) has shown some promise against drones, but is deployed on very few Arleigh Burkes. The Mark 38 machine gun system (MGS) using the 25 mm M242 Bushmaster can also be used manually as a final layer of defense, but has an inability to elevate higher than 55 degrees.

DDG(X) as a minimum will likely continue on where Flight IIIs are at currently.

 

[Hydroman]

Yeah, great you have a minute of shooting if it fails.

I’m sure the Marines ashore will really appreciate that, or the air threats coming in will slow down to allow other weapon systems to step up to engage them.

No manual backup?

 

[cccgong]

No manual backup?

If you need a manual backup for your 5 inch gun in this day and age, your ship is already sinking or is about to sink.

 

[Yellow Palace]

Yeah, great you have a minute of shooting if it fails.

I’m sure the Marines ashore will really appreciate that, or the air threats coming in will slow down to allow other weapon systems to step up to engage them.

Well, five minutes in the case of the engagement you cited. Or the other two ships in the group step up their rate of fire from four rounds per minute to six while you fix the problem.

Yeah, there's always going to be something that can fail. If it's the ammunition handling system, you've got 20 rounds in the drum to figure out a solution. If it's the powered rammer, you've got the round that's already in the breech. That doesn't have a manual backup either.

So far as providing sufficient crew to provide manual backups to everything is concerned - that will significantly increase the crew size. When recruitment is a serious problem for Western militaries, and the majority of the lifetime cost of a ship is in its crew, it's not unreasonable to suggest that the choice might be one ship (and gun) with all the backups, or two ships (and guns) dependent on automation.

 

[yeetmahboi]

People really needs to stop hand waving stuff to push their points. All kinds of machineries can fail, the world and its constructs is built around machineries.

 

[johnpjones1775]

If you need a manual backup for your 5 inch gun in this day and age, your ship is already sinking or is about to sink.

Of there was a malfunction in the auto loader…my last deployment each of my mk38s went down at at the console at different times. One needed a video card replaced, and one had a single bad wire in the cable go bad.
They could still be fired from the mount, just not from the console.

It’s absolutely stupid not to have manual loading capability as a back up.

 

[TomS]

Of there was a malfunction in the auto loader…my last deployment each of my mk38s went down at at the console at different times. One needed a video card replaced, and one had a single bad wire in the cable go bad.
They could still be fired from the mount, just not from the console.

It’s absolutely stupid not to have manual loading capability as a back up.

Who says they don't? The descriptions of the AHS mention that the ship would still carry additional rounds in bulk stowage that would be manually reloaded into the AHS between engagements. That suggests that if the autoloader does go U/S in action, you certainly can get a crew together and feed the hoist manually. But those people will have to come from somewhere else on the ship.

 

[johnpjones1775]

Who says they don't? The descriptions of the AHS mention that the ship would still carry additional rounds in bulk stowage that would be manually reloaded into the AHS between engagements. That suggests that if the autoloader does go U/S in action, you certainly can get a crew together and feed the hoist manually. But those people will have to come from somewhere else on the ship.

I was replying to a very specific post discounting the importance of the ability to manually load.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Who says they don't? The descriptions of the AHS mention that the ship would still carry additional rounds in bulk stowage that would be manually reloaded into the AHS between engagements. That suggests that if the autoloader does go U/S in action, you certainly can get a crew together and feed the hoist manually. But those people will have to come from somewhere else on the ship.

Remember that there's a huge difference between "number of crew necessary for operating the ship per watch" and "number of crew for battlestations."

I would fully expect that there's a team assigned to reload the AHS from bulk stowage while you're fighting.

 

[MadRat]

Remember that there's a huge difference between "number of crew necessary for operating the ship per watch" and "number of crew for battlestations."

I would fully expect that there's a team assigned to reload the AHS from bulk stowage while you're fighting.

A youtube interview is out there talking about reduced crew size and its impact / repurcussions for rotating watch duty assignments.

View: https://youtu.be/Lbo5rXfFe0M?t=760