Crowdsourcing solution to moving heavy objects like ordnance inside vehicle cabin

[AeroFranz]

Hi all,
I often come to the forum to look at ways specific problems were solved in the past. This one is a bit tricky and i haven't found anything relevant, so i was wondering if i could solicit help directly.
The project i'm working on requires moving heavy objects through the cabin of an air vehicle. I can't tell you the exact concept, but i can use an example that's close enough. Imagine a C-130 gunship and for some silly reason you have a retractable Hellfire launcher that you can reload from the inside. How do you safely get the missiles from storage to the launcher? It would take more than one person to lift it, and at any rate you wouldn't want to do that in turbulence.
The closest comparable situation i've found is that of the Gunship CH-46 (pic below), but there's no detail of how the anti-tank missiles are moved about; they could also be lightweight enough that they were carried by hand. I'm not so sure about the rockets though.
I thought you could use a small overhead gantry crane maybe. We're not talking about a lot of weight in the big scheme of things. Strap the item, lift it, and push it down the fuselage to where it needs to go. one person could do that. Or maybe it's more like a weapons cart? In that case you would still have to lift it on and off, seems like you need a crane anyway.

But the solution to my problem might already exist in types of applications other than aeronautical. Unfortunately i am not as knowledgeable of ground and maritime systems. For example, how do you move heavy shells that feed self-propelled howitzers...is there some sort of conveyor belt?

thanks for any input you might have!

 

[sferrin]

 

[AeroFranz]

Nice. Seeing the feeding mechanism for both the missile and the gun gave me some ideas. Unsurprisingly, it takes a lot of real estate and complexity to move items that weigh thousands of pounds. I wonder what's the simplest/lightest solution that is feasible when you relax the requirements to something that weighs only 100-200 lbs.

 

[sferrin]

I'd think a better idea, unless you're manhandling it in a moving aircraft, would be to move the pre-loaded module into position. Think rocket pod on wheels/tracks or something. Without knowing more I'm just guessing.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Already worked out:

 

[Fluff]

Civilian manufacturing, often use vacuum systems, to move items, like bags of rice etc. Not sure thats a good idea in an aircraft moving in 3 dimensions.

In the helo picture, for the rockets, I'd suggest after firing you drop the empty pod, the arms come back into the fuselage, and the loader pushes the next pack forward, and clips it in. So a basic rail system in the floor would be enough. Looks like to levels of rockets, so 2 positions for the arm to come back into?

For the missiles, they are facing the rear, so being lauched from the rear ramp? again some sort of simple rail, loader hooks up the firing controls and out it goes, to be fired, not much to come back in, maybe just a simple cradle that gets dropped.

 

[AeroFranz]

vacuum system? i had not considered that, it's not outlandish. I would think a safe bet would be something that doesn't stray too far from common military use. Unfortunately the closest thing i could think of, a weapons cart, is operated on rather solid ground, or in the case of an aircraft carrier, something that doesn't roll too much. But i guess smaller ships, like destroyers, do roll quite a bit...and they have weapons carts, right?

edit: i found this document online (Navy Ammunition handling equipment). It looks like there are wheelbarrow-like pieces of equipment like this AERO 12C or four wheeled carts like the MHU-191.

either way, this is fine for moving stuff but doesn't help if you're lifting it onto/off a rack

 

[red admiral]

Roller deck floor with guide rails to push a cart in the directions you want? Scissor lift on cart up/down rather than crane to position height correctly to slide onto rail? Or have integral hoist in the launcher as some aircraft have.

All the previous similar aircraft reloading / dispensing schemes (e.g. multi launch cruise missiles) I'm aware of have ended up with overhead gantry.

 

[dan_inbox]

ypu may want to look at autoloaders for tanks.

 

[TomcatViP]

Without a sketch of where to pick and where you load, it's difficult to come with an appropriate idea.
Have you tried the suspended rail (fairly basic even when actuated) with a bascule as picker (the sliding rail put the weapon on top of the picker that once secured rotatesinto the firing position) ?

 

[AeroFranz]

Is the bascule mechanism you describe something that is commonly used in artillery or other devices that require loading? I'm looking up "bascule" and it's mostly bridges, or rear-loading hunting rifles.

i realize it's hard coming up with a solution when the problem is poorly defined. I've sketched something that is not what I'm trying to do but puts you in the ballpark. Imagine you're inside the open cabin of a military vehicle with a cargo floor. You have heavy ordnance (the Hellfires or, say, an SDB) that cannot be manhandled easily, certainly not flying in turbulence or while maneuvering. It's stored someplace out of the way that needs to be brought to launchers situated at least tens of feet away (on the ramp, or on the door). This will require lifting the load, moving it, and orienting it. If the weapon is a dud, for whatever reason, it needs to be brought back to storage.

Right now i'm thinking of a gantry chain hoist. It can move up and down the fuselage, and once the weapon is lifted at the CG, it can be oriented fairly easily by one person to align it with a launcher or the storage rack.

 

[Sundog]

Aren't there rail systems built into the floor of cargo planes for moving heavy loads fore and aft? I would use something similar to a rotary launcher like you would find in a bomb bay that can be translated through the aircraft and the required munition rotated into the loading position. I would think you could design and build one for the interior of a cargo aircraft, as opposed to one actually used in a bomber, that's much lower in weight than one in a bomber, since it wouldn't have all of the acoustic and aerodynamic loads acting on it.

 

[CiTrus90]

Would a pneumatic manipulator on a rail do the job?
Examples here and here (44 seconds in the video during the reloading phase)

 

[Fluff]

Pretty sure firing missiles from within the cabin of a transport is not a good idea.

Most aircraft have either dropped bombs from internal bomb bays(bomb bay doors are pretty big doors)

Or launched rockets/missiles from underwing/under fuselage(yes and overwing on Lightnings and Jaguars).

The last thing you want is a missile hanging up while its rocket engine is melting the fuselage opposite the door.....

The recent trials with transports, seems to focus on 'chucking' a pallet out the back, and then the missile launches from the pallet.

 

[TomcatViP]

Probably a pneumatic launch.

 

[Fluff]

this may help:scroll down theres a picture of a C130 internal, with a palletised maritime patrol system, including sonabouy launcher in the tail ramp(i.e. remove the original tail ramp.)

PLA AEW&C, SIGINT, EW and MPA thread | Page 139 | Sino Defence Forum - China Military Forum

Another idea, depends on what your actually trying to do, but if its something in the future, an exoskeleton could be used - probably not the most realistic option, a rail system is more likely, or a special system that adds rails of the correct size for the weapon your using, bolted into the existing cargo handling systems. The large military transports have built in crane systems to help with loading.

 

[AeroFranz]

@Sundog yes, just about every US cargo vehicle has floors incorporating guide rails and rollers for moving and securing palletized loads. It's certainly a good idea for whatever solution ends up being adopted to make use of the rollers to have a roll-on/roll-off capability, so that you don't tie up the host platform in this particular mission, and can convert back to cargo in a reasonable amount of time. For example, if you need a firing console, or guidance, or whatever function the ordnance requires, then it makes sense to have that item be palletized.

@Fluff , yes, i don't think anyone wants rocket exhaust inside the cabin. The Hellfire/gunship example was just something quickly thrown together to illustrate the issue at hand of moving heavy objects inside a cabin. i can assure you the actual application is more sensible than that! as @TomcatViP said, there are pneumatic ejection methods that would work fine, like what's used on Marines C-130s equipped with Common Launch Tubes (CLTs). Also, thanks for the example of the maritime patrol system, that is exactly how you'd want to integrate systems on the platform. A selling point would be making use of existing systems on the vehicle, be it the cargo floor for moving in pallets and securing them, winches if available, or using the onboard engine generators or APU for power.
I also take note of your suggestions about cranes and rails built into some of the large cargo planes. I almost wish my target application was Russian planes, those seem to have a more extensive complement of support systems because they work in more austere environments (see for example An-26, An-72, etc.)

 

[Dilandu]

How do you safely get the missiles from storage to the launcher? It would take more than one person to lift it, and at any rate you wouldn't want to do that in turbulence.

Er... a simple rail trolley?

 

[AeroFranz]

i think that something like a rail trolley can be part of the solution. Certainly the simpler the better. But there are details that have to be worked out. For example, how do you get the heavy piece of ordnance, from its storage rack onto the trolley? Is it a separate piece of equipment, like a hoist? And from the trolley to the launcher/chute?

 

[Trident]

My first idea was something like a cable-suspended claw (think Spidercam), but I don't think that would work very well inside a pitching and rolling vehicle. Nevermind a flying platform which might momentarily experience slight negative g. OTOH the same applies to a conventional chain hoist... perhaps a gantry fitted with something like a translating scissor lift instead of the chain hoist?

 

[TomS]

i think that something like a rail trolley can be part of the solution. Certainly the simpler the better. But there are details that have to be worked out. For example, how do you get the heavy piece of ordnance, from its storage rack onto the trolley? Is it a separate piece of equipment, like a hoist? And from the trolley to the launcher/chute?

You don't. You load each item in a trolley/cart that can be moved around the aircraft on rails. It stays securely fastened to that trolley frame until it is fed into the launcher. Ideally, it's encapsulated so that the capsule in its frame can just be mated to the launcher stand.

The best analog might be to look at submarine torpedo rooms. The torpedoes are clamped to a cradle, and the cradle is mounted in a framework of rails that allow it to be moved vertically and horizontally around the torpedo room.

 

[AeroFranz]

@Trident yeah, the dangling aspect of having a suspended item is far from ideal, but i guess much depends on the length of the line. If it's short, and say you get hit by a gust, the load shouldn't have much time to develop a great speed (and thus energy). Anytime the load is being moved, it's probably best if it's as close as possible to the top of the hoist. But at some point it has to be picked up and deposited.
Based on the cabin height of something like a C-130, that would mean anywhere between 100-300 lbs hanging by a five or six-foot line.
I keep thinking of WWII seaplanes being hoisted aboard their ship. There always seems to be an army of sailors with poles and lines keeping the vehicle pointed in the right direction and preventing it from striking parts of the ship.

maybe two people can sufficiently move/stabilize such a load? The alternative is finding a way of always having the load constrained by some device, so that it has only a degree of freedom in the direction you want it to move.

 

[Trident]

... hence the scissor lift, like so if that makes any sense:

 

[Dilandu]

i think that something like a rail trolley can be part of the solution. Certainly the simpler the better. But there are details that have to be worked out. For example, how do you get the heavy piece of ordnance, from its storage rack onto the trolley? Is it a separate piece of equipment, like a hoist? And from the trolley to the launcher/chute?

Essentially it is answered above:

You don't. You load each item in a trolley/cart that can be moved around the aircraft on rails. It stays securely fastened to that trolley frame until it is fed into the launcher. Ideally, it's encapsulated so that the capsule in its frame can just be mated to the launcher stand.

A perfect and simple solution.

 

[AeroFranz]

Thanks for all the input, i'm coalescing towards a solution of sorts... or at least i've eliminated a bunch of alternatives!

 

[sferrin]

Thanks for all the input, i'm coalescing towards a solution of sorts... or at least i've eliminated a bunch of alternatives!

Does your boss know you're out-sourcing?

 

[AeroFranz]

Nope. To be fair, every time i have an assignment that involves some unconventional idea, the first thing i do is research SPF for inspiration anyway
In this particular case, i'm working on something where the problem of moving heavy items inside the cabin is only part of the larger problem, and it's also not Hellfires on a C-130. If this goes anywhere you'll find out, it might take a while though!

 

[flateric]

Some kind of extending swing arm with a counterwieight attached to a removable/repositioned base on a cargo floor or ceiling rails?
Or some mechanism inspired by bra lamps?

 

[CiTrus90]

Would a pneumatic manipulator on a rail do the job?
Examples here and here (44 seconds in the video during the reloading phase)

Not sure if my previous suggestion does or doesn't meet the required parameters, but here are some more images of the system I'm talking about:

And a video of the resupply system in action (which seems to provide a great deal of mobility for moving the rounds with very little strain on the crew).

 

[SleeperService2]

After some thought I think the easiest (and safest) system would be for the launcher to do the moving. Think of a CNC machine changing tools.
Your launcher is retractable so I'll assume it's mounted underneath the airframe, so missiles stowed aligned fore and aft, hatch opens in floor launcher brought inside hatch closes. Launcher is on a straight telescoping mount on one end of a pair of arms with it's own tilt and rotate head. When deployed the pair of arms lock straight down to keep the mount rigid.
To reload the launcher is deployed inline with the magazine and aligned by a traverse travel mount in the traverse beam. Missile loaded either by rammer or by hand. Beam travels back to hatch and, when needed hatch opens arms extend to lower the mount a simple clamp locks the arm in place. Lower mount extends ready to fire.
The missiles are secure in the magazine or launcher at all times, they can be stored with safeties on, the bin could be armoured with a blowout panel in the floor in case of explosion risk from a hit. To reload the whole assembly is unlocked, moved to the access point and swopped out or replenished round by round.
The scissor arms would need to be quite stiff and ideally the launcher would need securing when stowed. It could all be positioned where possible with the launcher having a deflector to keep the missile exhaust away from the skin. I've seen the same setup in a press throwing 5 to 10 ton dies around almost too fast to see. By keeping all the load movement in one plane the mountings can be surprisingly light. Just look at the arm in the photo above and that's handling twist too.

 

[flateric]

View: https://youtu.be/sRPUzi3_zXc

 

[AeroFranz]

Lots of good suggestions!

@flateric , it had occurred to me to mount a crane arm somewhere on the side of the cabin. The distances involved are not too great and it should be doable with a couple of arm segments. I could tell that a standard jib crane wouldn't do as the end of the arm swings in a circle of fixed radius and would likely hit the opposite fuselage wall before being able to rotate 180 degrees.
The mechanisms of the three lamps you showed solve the problem by being able to retract and extend as they swing. The first one even has an additional degree of freedom in the vertical plane that can be used to pick-up the load. For all practical purpose it's like an excavator arm. I think these are all reasonable concepts that pass the sniff test and would make it into the analysis of alternatives. I like the first one because intuitively it seems it's the one whose end of the arm can be positioned anywhere with the most ease. The scissor one looks the flimsiest, but this is an uneducated opinion!

about the pictures of the crew loading Hellfires manually - i think there is a 50 lbs limit on how much an individual is supposed to lift. It also depends on the motion that is performed, and how high off the ground it's held. I think OSHA has guidelines on that. But yeah, several dudes just grabbing the thing would be fairly straightforward. Unfortunately the load could be as heavy as, say, an SDB (~250-285 lbs), and would require 4-5 people. I'm also concerned about the safety of doing this if there's turbulence.

@coanda , indeed, i think that the weight involved is small enough that you may not need to include lots of functionality in the device. For example, if the device takes care of supporting the load securely in the vertical plane, then a person should be able to push it/pull it wherever it needs to be inside the cabin (tens of feet). I'm not saying that powered motion in the horizontal plane would be overly hard to add, but that would be one less thing to provide power to, that can potentially break and has to be maintained. There may not be a COTS solution, but maybe "quasi-COTS"?

@CiTrus90 Oh, wow.... i was a bit skeptical about using suction to move stuff, but man, that looks awesome. Not only that, but it seems like a fairly widespread solution in industrial applications. Thanks for the videos of the Archer system, especially the second one. It shows the crane arms. And it's lifting a missile-shaped object that's in the right ballpark of mass. I was a bit concerned that you could only provide good suction on a nice, smooth, clean, flat surface, but apparently not. Hmmm...a quick search shows that some 155mm M107 HE rounds weigh 95 lbs...it's on the low end but I'm sure you can scale that up.

@SleeperService2 the launcher part of the system is rather bulky and does not want to be moved. Sorry, i know that without giving more details it's hard to come up with appropriate solutions. I will say that maybe you could move only part of it, like a cradle that holds the 'round'. I'm being intentionally vague here. I agree with the principle of trying to keep movement in one plane to keep things light.

 

[TomcatViP]

... hence the scissor lift, like so if that makes any sense:

Sorry but the gantry is not a good idea unless you have enough engines on both side to ensure coordination b/w each side traction (I assume that you have weight constraints also).

 

[CiTrus90]

@CiTrus90 Oh, wow.... i was a bit skeptical about using suction to move stuff, but man, that looks awesome. Not only that, but it seems like a fairly widespread solution in industrial applications. Thanks for the videos of the Archer system, especially the second one. It shows the crane arms. And it's lifting a missile-shaped object that's in the right ballpark of mass. I was a bit concerned that you could only provide good suction on a nice, smooth, clean, flat surface, but apparently not. Hmmm...a quick search shows that some 155mm M107 HE rounds weigh 95 lbs...it's on the low end but I'm sure you can scale that up.

It doesn't really need to suck on the object per se, the pneumatic part provides the lift:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtyk0v3stVA

 

[AeroFranz]

I'm trying to build the correct working principle of a vacuum lifter in my head.
Looking at the case of the Archer howitzer: the pad, with vacuum applied to it, is responsible for gripping the load, and from the pad the load is transferred to a conventional hoist cable responsible for moving the load up and down? And the rest of the crane takes care of motion in the horizontal plane.

so the difference between this and say, a crane with a chain hoist with a hook or strap is that the vacuum pad allows a very quick connection/disconnection, without the need for:
- mounting hardware on the load itself
- Spend time securing and disconnecting the hook or straps to the load

am i missing something?

edit: i'm asking because most pieces of ordnance already come with some form or other of mounting lugs. It is still amazing to see how quickly vacuum lifters seem to provide secure connection, literally in a second.

 

[starviking]

Would a pneumatic manipulator on a rail do the job?
Examples here and here (44 seconds in the video during the reloading phase)

Not sure if my previous suggestion does or doesn't meet the required parameters, but here are some more images of the system I'm talking about:

And a video of the resupply system in action (which seems to provide a great deal of mobility for moving the rounds with very little strain on the crew).

Interesting video! Looks like the resupply still needs 'positive control' from crew though. I was thinking something like a knuckle boom crane, but with a grab could also be a solution - though perhaps a grab on that ammunition transfer arm could be a solution too.

Knuckle boom cranes can retract into a small volume (crane-wise), and at least some variants can operate in various stages of retraction - meaning it can have good mobility not only for reaching munition packs far from it, but also closer packs.

Knuckle boom crane - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[CiTrus90]

I'm trying to build the correct working principle of a vacuum lifter in my head.
Looking at the case of the Archer howitzer: the pad, with vacuum applied to it, is responsible for gripping the load, and from the pad the load is transferred to a conventional hoist cable responsible for moving the load up and down? And the rest of the crane takes care of motion in the horizontal plane.

so the difference between this and say, a crane with a chain hoist with a hook or strap is that the vacuum pad allows a very quick connection/disconnection, without the need for:
- mounting hardware on the load itself
- Spend time securing and disconnecting the hook or straps to the load

am i missing something?

edit: i'm asking because most pieces of ordnance already come with some form or other of mounting lugs. It is still amazing to see how quickly vacuum lifters seem to provide secure connection, literally in a second.

Here are some links that explain how the system works:
Modsim - ergonomic lifting technologies
Indeva - how pneumatic manipulators counter balance the weight of the lifted load
Research Gate - A Pneumatic Manipulator used in Direct Contact with an Operator
Dalmec - what is an industrial manipulator (it also shows the difference between a manipulator and a cable balancer - which I originally and erroneously thought were the same thing)

 

[AeroFranz]

Thanks for the links, I'll check them out. I was also unaware of the distinction between air balancer and manipulator. I guess the former nearly eliminates forces in the vertical direction, for ease of lifting and lowering, while the latter allows the rotation of the suspended object around some axis? I'm getting an education in repositioning devices!