CF-105 replaced... by an SST?

[Lascaris]

Something slightly different. Say CF-105 DOES get canceled on schedule the more I see on it the more likely it looks it would had gone under even if the Liberals were still in power.This though leaves a problem in the form of Avro Canada having 14,500 workers and along with subsidiaries closeto 50,000.

So the Canadian government at the time of Arrow cancellation announces Canada will be developing an SST either alone or in partnership with other western countries. Avro Canada was apparently already studying SST concepts and this neatly solves the Black Friday problems, AVCo employees will have work to do while Orenda has a new use for its Iroquois engine.

Cross to the other side of the Atlantic. The Sud Aviation Super Caravelle was very close in size to Avro studies 60 to 92 passengers compared to 80, while France wanted Iroquois for its strategic bomber force. Cooperation makes sense and indeed happens when SNECMA makws a deal for Iroquois instead of J75 and a joint Franco-Canadian SST is agreed upon. Britain can either join or look for American partners....

Thoughts?

 

[Archibald]

while France wanted Iroquois for its strategic bomber force.

For the Mirage IVB, a 60 tons upscaled Mirage IVA; the size of a B-58. 60 tons is a nice place to start a SST indeed... note that the Concorde deal is far in the future, November 1962. How about Dassault instead ? Their bizjet business started with the Falcon 20, flown in May 1963. So, supersonic business jet, albeit a large one ?

There is an additional goodie: the Arrow analog fly-by-wire system. Very similar to Concorde (1969) and Mirage 2000 (1978). In the 1960s Dassault flew a Mirage IIIB with a stability augmentation system. Dassault could get a Mirage 2000 flight control system 20 to 15 years in advance. Hmmm a twin or three Iroquois bizjet with FBW... a baby Concorde.

 

[Apophenia]

I suspect that, RW, the plan was always to fold Avro Canada's 1957/59 STAT concept into the parent company's HSA.1000 SST. So, if you want an independent Canadian SST project (or joint programme with France, etc.), you'll also need an independent Avro Canada.

Since you touched on the Sud Aviation, I assume that you intended a civilian Iroquois-power Super Caravelle? If so, Canadian assembly of that 'Iroquois-Caravelle' for TCA, CPA, and the rest of the North American market makes great sense to me.

And, as you say, this 'Iroquois-Caravelle' "neatly solves the Black Friday problems". Might I suggest the name Avro Canada Jetliner II?

Meanwhile, for the European market, SNECMA could develop a metric measures Iroquois derivative - in both civil and military forms.

 

[Lascaris]

I suspect that, RW, the plan was always to fold Avro Canada's 1957/59 STAT concept into the parent company's HSA.1000 SST. So, if you want an independent Canadian SST project (or joint programme with France, etc.), you'll also need an independent Avro Canada.

I'm inclined to argue this isn't necessarily too much of a problem. Why? Because any SST program decision will be primary political and the Canadian government is taking it too keep jobs on its soil

Since you touched on the Sud Aviation, I assume that you intended a civilian Iroquois-power Super Caravelle? If so, Canadian assembly of that 'Iroquois-Caravelle' for TCA, CPA, and the rest of the North American market makes great sense to me.

Looks to me France has advantages as an immediate partner. Not just in their SST being roughly similar in size to the AVRO Canada concepts but also in desperately looking out for engine technology ie Iroquois.

And, as you say, this 'Iroquois-Caravelle' "neatly solves the Black Friday problems". Might I suggest the name Avro Canada Jetliner II?

Now this is making sense aside from any SST? Why not have a Caravelle 10 and further derivatives with non after-burning Iroquois? And if Iroquois is still around and kicking utilizing its core for a turbofan is the logical next step?

 

[Apophenia]

I'm inclined to argue this isn't necessarily too much of a problem. Why? Because any SST program decision will be primary political and the Canadian government is taking it too keep jobs on its soil

My point was that the STAT concept wasn't the GoC's to do with what it would - the design work was, ultimately, owned by Hawker Siddeley.

...Now this is making sense aside from any SST? Why not have a Caravelle 10 and further derivatives with non after-burning Iroquois? And if Iroquois is still around and kicking utilizing its core for a turbofan is the logical next step?

Yes, if Iroquois development had continued, a low-bypass turbofan derivative would be almost inevitable (From what I can gather, the mysterious Orenda PS.25C was a small turbofan. If true, at least we know that Orenda was interested in developing turbofans.)

TCA and CPA had already shown a preference for the R-R Conway (over rival US turbofans). A R-R/Orenda co-production might have worked .. Rolls wasn't having much luck with its Medway turbofan at the time.

 

[Lascaris]

My point was that the STAT concept wasn't the GoC's to do with what it would - the design work was, ultimately, owned by Hawker Siddeley.



Yes, if Iroquois development had continued, a low-bypass turbofan derivative would be almost inevitable (From what I can gather, the mysterious Orenda PS.25C was a small turbofan. If true, at least we know that Orenda was interested in developing turbofans.)

TCA and CPA had already shown a preference for the R-R Conway (over rival US turbofans). A R-R/Orenda co-production might have worked .. Rolls wasn't having much luck with its Medway turbofan at the time.

Next logical customer... Viggen with an Iroquois?