Atomic Coyote
I really should change my personal text
- Joined
- 31 March 2015
- Messages
- 73
- Reaction score
- 150
With hindsight (and possibly without) it's obvious that the Sovyetskiy Soyuz (Project 23) battleships were a mistake; none of them made it very far into production, they took up valuable resources and yard space, etc. With that said, the Soviet do need naval forces of some kind, and the Ganguts were already hitting their best-by date by the late 20s (aside from the terrible shape they were in). I'd propose a more "walk then run" approach to capital ship building.
Brief digression into geography: there's four main areas the Soviets have to deal with regarding their navy; the Black Sea, Baltic, Arctic, and Pacific. The leftover Russian stuff should be sufficient to contain the Turks for a while, so it's a low priority. Building up a fleet to rival Japan at the end of a logistical chain going across Siberia isn't feasible, and the Soviets (correctly imo) never put much there. That leaves the Baltic and Arctic.
In the Baltic the pacing threats as of ~1930 are the Germans and Sweden. (Anything that can deal with them can deal with Poland, Finland, or the Baltics' naval forces). The German pre-dreads and Sverige class are both 11 inch armed ships that are not exceptionally fast, the Deutschlands are faster but still 11 inch armed and I doubt the Germans would want to send them into the Baltic unless they absolutely had to. I'd propose a coastal defense ship armed with the same 12 inch guns as on the Ganguts, something that could overmatch the German and Swedish ships without being too difficult to build. Essentially, something to give the yards practice and work out any kinks in the industrial base.
While those are built, the next generation is designed (say in 5 year intervals), perhaps along the lines of a bit earlier Project 82 (3x3x12in 'battlecruiser' to operate in the Arctic and overmatch treaty heavy cruisers). Then, by that point, hopefully the industrial base is up and running, the naval architects and engineers have experience designing and building capital ships, and the Red Navy has experience operating them, so by the early-mid 1940s you can build the 16 inch armed fast battleships. (Assuming a war doesn't happen around 1941 for some reason.)
Thoughts? I'm far from an expert on these things, one thing I considered but don't know enough to answer is whether there's any Imperial Russian design studies that could be dusted off and updated for the 20s/30s.
Brief digression into geography: there's four main areas the Soviets have to deal with regarding their navy; the Black Sea, Baltic, Arctic, and Pacific. The leftover Russian stuff should be sufficient to contain the Turks for a while, so it's a low priority. Building up a fleet to rival Japan at the end of a logistical chain going across Siberia isn't feasible, and the Soviets (correctly imo) never put much there. That leaves the Baltic and Arctic.
In the Baltic the pacing threats as of ~1930 are the Germans and Sweden. (Anything that can deal with them can deal with Poland, Finland, or the Baltics' naval forces). The German pre-dreads and Sverige class are both 11 inch armed ships that are not exceptionally fast, the Deutschlands are faster but still 11 inch armed and I doubt the Germans would want to send them into the Baltic unless they absolutely had to. I'd propose a coastal defense ship armed with the same 12 inch guns as on the Ganguts, something that could overmatch the German and Swedish ships without being too difficult to build. Essentially, something to give the yards practice and work out any kinks in the industrial base.
Saturn, USSR Coastal Defense Ship laid down 1935
Displacement:
11,988 t light; 12,776 t standard; 13,323 t normal; 13,761 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(449.95 ft / 442.91 ft) x 78.74 ft x (21.33 / 21.89 ft)
(137.14 m / 135.00 m) x 24.00 m x (6.50 / 6.67 m)
Armament:
6 - 12.01" / 305 mm 52.0 cal guns - 924.42lbs / 419.31kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1907 Model
2 x Triple mounts on centreline, forward evenly spread
1 raised mount
8 - 5.12" / 130 mm 50.0 cal guns - 70.97lbs / 32.19kg shells, 150 per gun
Dual purpose guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1935 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline, aft evenly spread
1 raised mount
2 x Twin mounts on sides amidships
16 - 1.77" / 45.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 3.04lbs / 1.38kg shells, 400 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1935 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
8 - 0.47" / 12.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.07lbs / 0.03kg shells, 2,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1935 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 6,163 lbs / 2,796 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 8.27" / 210 mm 285.43 ft / 87.00 m 10.66 ft / 3.25 m
Ends: 1.97" / 50 mm 157.48 ft / 48.00 m 10.66 ft / 3.25 m
Upper: 1.97" / 50 mm 285.43 ft / 87.00 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 99% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
1.97" / 50 mm 285.43 ft / 87.00 m 22.18 ft / 6.76 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 65.62 ft / 20.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 9.84" / 250 mm 5.91" / 150 mm 3.94" / 100 mm
2nd: 5.91" / 150 mm 3.94" / 100 mm 3.94" / 100 mm
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.47" / 12 mm -
4th: 0.47" / 12 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 2.95" / 75 mm
Forecastle: 1.97" / 50 mm Quarter deck: 1.97" / 50 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 5.91" / 150 mm, Aft 5.91" / 150 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 35,280 shp / 26,319 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 4,000nm at 13.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 986 tons
Complement:
619 - 806
Cost:
£6.222 million / $24.889 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,307 tons, 9.8%
- Guns: 1,307 tons, 9.8%
Armour: 4,266 tons, 32.0%
- Belts: 1,462 tons, 11.0%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 461 tons, 3.5%
- Armament: 856 tons, 6.4%
- Armour Deck: 1,345 tons, 10.1%
- Conning Towers: 143 tons, 1.1%
Machinery: 1,002 tons, 7.5%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,413 tons, 40.6%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,335 tons, 10.0%
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
23,656 lbs / 10,730 Kg = 27.3 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 4.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.22
Metacentric height 5.0 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 14.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.69
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.15
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a straight bulbous bow and transom stern (0.60 of beam)
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.627 / 0.631
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.63 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.87 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 44
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 25.00%, 26.25 ft / 8.00 m, 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Forward deck: 25.00%, 22.97 ft / 7.00 m, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Aft deck: 25.00%, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Quarter deck: 25.00%, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Average freeboard: 22.27 ft / 6.79 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 84.7%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 182.1%
Waterplane Area: 27,231 Square feet or 2,530 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 157 lbs/sq ft or 764 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.88
- Longitudinal: 3.01
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Displacement:
11,988 t light; 12,776 t standard; 13,323 t normal; 13,761 t full load
Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(449.95 ft / 442.91 ft) x 78.74 ft x (21.33 / 21.89 ft)
(137.14 m / 135.00 m) x 24.00 m x (6.50 / 6.67 m)
Armament:
6 - 12.01" / 305 mm 52.0 cal guns - 924.42lbs / 419.31kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1907 Model
2 x Triple mounts on centreline, forward evenly spread
1 raised mount
8 - 5.12" / 130 mm 50.0 cal guns - 70.97lbs / 32.19kg shells, 150 per gun
Dual purpose guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1935 Model
2 x Twin mounts on centreline, aft evenly spread
1 raised mount
2 x Twin mounts on sides amidships
16 - 1.77" / 45.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 3.04lbs / 1.38kg shells, 400 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1935 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
8 - 0.47" / 12.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.07lbs / 0.03kg shells, 2,000 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1935 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 6,163 lbs / 2,796 kg
Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 8.27" / 210 mm 285.43 ft / 87.00 m 10.66 ft / 3.25 m
Ends: 1.97" / 50 mm 157.48 ft / 48.00 m 10.66 ft / 3.25 m
Upper: 1.97" / 50 mm 285.43 ft / 87.00 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 99% of normal length
- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
1.97" / 50 mm 285.43 ft / 87.00 m 22.18 ft / 6.76 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 65.62 ft / 20.00 m
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 9.84" / 250 mm 5.91" / 150 mm 3.94" / 100 mm
2nd: 5.91" / 150 mm 3.94" / 100 mm 3.94" / 100 mm
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.47" / 12 mm -
4th: 0.47" / 12 mm - -
- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 2.95" / 75 mm
Forecastle: 1.97" / 50 mm Quarter deck: 1.97" / 50 mm
- Conning towers: Forward 5.91" / 150 mm, Aft 5.91" / 150 mm
Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 35,280 shp / 26,319 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 4,000nm at 13.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 986 tons
Complement:
619 - 806
Cost:
£6.222 million / $24.889 million
Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,307 tons, 9.8%
- Guns: 1,307 tons, 9.8%
Armour: 4,266 tons, 32.0%
- Belts: 1,462 tons, 11.0%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 461 tons, 3.5%
- Armament: 856 tons, 6.4%
- Armour Deck: 1,345 tons, 10.1%
- Conning Towers: 143 tons, 1.1%
Machinery: 1,002 tons, 7.5%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,413 tons, 40.6%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,335 tons, 10.0%
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0%
Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
23,656 lbs / 10,730 Kg = 27.3 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 4.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.22
Metacentric height 5.0 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 14.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.69
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.15
Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a straight bulbous bow and transom stern (0.60 of beam)
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.627 / 0.631
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.63 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.87 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 44
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 25.00%, 26.25 ft / 8.00 m, 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Forward deck: 25.00%, 22.97 ft / 7.00 m, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Aft deck: 25.00%, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Quarter deck: 25.00%, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m, 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Average freeboard: 22.27 ft / 6.79 m
Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 84.7%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 182.1%
Waterplane Area: 27,231 Square feet or 2,530 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 157 lbs/sq ft or 764 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.88
- Longitudinal: 3.01
- Overall: 1.00
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
While those are built, the next generation is designed (say in 5 year intervals), perhaps along the lines of a bit earlier Project 82 (3x3x12in 'battlecruiser' to operate in the Arctic and overmatch treaty heavy cruisers). Then, by that point, hopefully the industrial base is up and running, the naval architects and engineers have experience designing and building capital ships, and the Red Navy has experience operating them, so by the early-mid 1940s you can build the 16 inch armed fast battleships. (Assuming a war doesn't happen around 1941 for some reason.)
Thoughts? I'm far from an expert on these things, one thing I considered but don't know enough to answer is whether there's any Imperial Russian design studies that could be dusted off and updated for the 20s/30s.
