Possible Indonesian acquisition of Giuseppe Garibaldi Carrier

GTX

GTX

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Indonesia interested in Italian carrier ITS Giuseppe Garibaldi

The Indonesian Navy is interested in acquiring the Marina Militare's assault helicopter carrier/aircraft carrier ITS Giuseppe Garibaldi (C 551), Janes understands.
www.janes.com www.janes.com


www.armyrecognition.com

Indonesia approves $450 million loan to acquire ex-Italian aircraft carrier Giuseppe Garibaldi

Indonesia approves $450 million loan to acquire ex-Italian carrier Giuseppe Garibaldi
www.armyrecognition.com www.armyrecognition.com
 
Thanks for the good notice, GTX. A large island nation, especially one astride world trade routes like Indonesia, seems like a natural for naval aviation. But an age of forty years is old for a ship: I wonder how much remaining life the aircraft carrier would have in Indonesian service.
 
Owens Z said:
Thanks for the good notice, GTX. A large island nation, especially one astride world trade routes like Indonesia, seems like a natural for naval aviation. But an age of forty years is old for a ship: I wonder how much remaining life the aircraft carrier would have in Indonesian service.
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The answer is as long as Indonesia want to as long as Indonesia is willing to accept longer and longer periods of no availability due to increased maintenance.

I tend to disagree with your point though on large island nations. Given the archipelago nature of Indonesia there are plenty of locations to build runways and therefore positioning land based aircraft around Indonesia should be more cost effective than a small carrier. The GG will also be limited to AV-8B/F-35B, the second of which the Indonesians might not even be allowed to operate. Is there any real capability value in an AV-8B in the 2030s in SE Asia?
 
Ozair said:
I tend to disagree with your point though on large island nations. Given the archipelago nature of Indonesia there are plenty of locations to build runways and therefore positioning land based aircraft around Indonesia should be more cost effective than a small carrier.
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I agree on the geographical side, OTOH airfields can be rendered useless by disasters such as typhoons, tsunamis, earthquakes and volcanic eruptions, which makes a floating airfield potentially a very useful asset.
 
DWG said:
I agree on the geographical side, OTOH airfields can be rendered useless by disasters such as typhoons, tsunamis, earthquakes and volcanic eruptions, which makes a floating airfield potentially a very useful asset.
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I get the ring of fire issue but it probably more depends on what the intent is of using the GG. If it is disaster relief then fair enough but they're likely to find better options more suited for that use case.

If they want the ability to project power then planning for regional airfields being unavailable due to natural disaster while a military operation is going on seems a little extreme.
 
Ozair said:
I get the ring of fire issue but it probably more depends on what the intent is of using the GG. If it is disaster relief then fair enough but they're likely to find better options more suited for that use case.
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You don't just plan for one use case, you plan for every one you can cover with the minimum assets. Take HMS Argus as an analogue, her roles included helicopter training, landing support, hospital ship, and disaster relief.
 
Ozair said:
The answer is as long as Indonesia want to as long as Indonesia is willing to accept longer and longer periods of no availability due to increased maintenance. I tend to disagree with your point though on large island nations. Given the archipelago nature of Indonesia there are plenty of locations to build runways and therefore positioning land based aircraft around Indonesia should be more cost effective than a small carrier. The GG will also be limited to AV-8B/F-35B, the second of which the Indonesians might not even be allowed to operate. Is there any real capability value in an AV-8B in the 2030s in SE Asia?
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The Indonesian islands do have plenty of airfields, Ozair, several built by the Japanese during WW2. But for an aircraft carrier, I think you didn't understand me. Indonesia is at peace with its neighbors, but in any case I didn't propose a Garibaldi-class carrier to fight its way near enemy bases that host dozens or hundreds of fighter planes. Instead, its modest complement of aircraft would be for controlling Indonesia's extensive sea lines of communication, far from land and the latest land-based airpower. To intercept a snooping long-range reconnaissance plane, sink merchant ships and fishing trawlers, or deter warships with no air cover would not require the newest models of warplane. In short, something will beat nothing.

If Indonesia wants Garibaldi simply as a helping ship for the region's occasional tsunami and cyclone problem, like what the job of Thailand's carrier Chakri Naruebet has become, then the elderly Italian vessel (with some big utility helicopters) would no doubt be useful in that coast guard function.
 
Ozair said:
The GG will also be limited to AV-8B/F-35B, the second of which the Indonesians might not even be allowed to operate. Is there any real capability value in an AV-8B in the 2030s in SE Asia?
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I suspect they would turn her into drone carrier. Its much cheaper than operate VTOL planes, and almost as efficient.
 
Ozair said:
I tend to disagree with your point though on large island nations. Given the archipelago nature of Indonesia there are plenty of locations to build runways and therefore positioning land based aircraft around Indonesia should be more cost effective than a small carrier. The GG will also be limited to AV-8B/F-35B, the second of which the Indonesians might not even be allowed to operate. Is there any real capability value in an AV-8B in the 2030s in SE Asia?
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From one of the articles I posted:

a financing plan that combines carrier acquisition with new helicopter procurement. The Ministry of National Development Planning (BAPPENAS) authorized the use of foreign loans for the carrier, with a ceiling of $450 million, alongside up to $250 million for new transport helicopters and up to $300 million for utility helicopters...Proposals presented to Indonesia in 2025 described adapting the Garibaldi for helicopters and unmanned aerial vehicles. At Indodefence 2025, a local firm exhibited a concept model with two islands and scale models of Turkish Bayraktar TB3 UAVs, which Indonesia has expressed interest in acquiring. Indonesia’s defense industry has signed agreements with Baykar and Republikorp for the local production of 60 navalized TB3 drones and nine Akinci UAVs. The TB3 has completed ski-jump takeoff trials aboard the Turkish carrier Anadolu, suggesting a compatibility with Garibaldi’s deck layout.
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And some earlier reporting on the subject:

armyrecognition.com

Indonesia explores acquiring Italy’s decommissioned aircraft carrier Giuseppe Garibaldi for naval drone operations

Indonesia explores acquiring Italy’s decommissioned aircraft carrier Giuseppe Garibaldi for naval drone operations
armyrecognition.com armyrecognition.com
 
GTX said:
Folks, there is no mention of Harriers so please don't pollute the thread with such whatif style speculation.
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Italian Navy will keep its Harriers as much as flight hours will be available.
The F-35 low production rate forces Italian Navy to operate with mixed air wing until program accomplishment.
 
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GTX said:
Folks, there is no mention of Harriers so please don't pollute the thread with such whatif style speculation.
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In fact, according to Spanish press, the Italian Harriers could be acquired for the Spanish Armada to keep the AV-8B fleet operating until 2032. The present Government has discarded the F-35 as a replacement

www.eldebate.com

El Jefe de Estado Mayor de la Armada, optimista sobre contar con un portaaviones cien por cien español

El Jefe de Estado Mayor de la Armada, almirante general Antonio Piñeiro, se ha mostrado este viernes optimista sobre la posibilidad de contar en el...
www.eldebate.com www.eldebate.com

Just a clarification. Please don't go off topic from here.
 
GTX said:
Folks, there is no mention of Harriers so please don't pollute the thread with such whatif style speculation.
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Yes there is... From the Janes article you linked in the very first post.
A deal could possibly include the transfer of some of the Italian Navy's 30 AV-8B Harrier II short take-off and vertical landing (STOVL) aircraft, an Italian Navy source told Janes
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DWG said:
You don't just plan for one use case, you plan for every one you can cover with the minimum assets. Take HMS Argus as an analogue, her roles included helicopter training, landing support, hospital ship, and disaster relief.
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Sure mate, plan for everything and generally do nothing well. If the Indonesians want a ship for disaster relief then the GG isn't the best fit, that is obvious. It might be cheap but will also come with a load of maintenance pain.

Owens Z said:
The Indonesian islands do have plenty of airfields, Ozair, several built by the Japanese during WW2. But for an aircraft carrier, I think you didn't understand me. Indonesia is at peace with its neighbors, but in any case I didn't propose a Garibaldi-class carrier to fight its way near enemy bases that host dozens or hundreds of fighter planes.
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Neither did I.

Owens Z said:
Instead, its modest complement of aircraft would be for controlling Indonesia's extensive sea lines of communication, far from land and the latest land-based airpower. To intercept a snooping long-range reconnaissance plane, sink merchant ships and fishing trawlers, or deter warships with no air cover would not require the newest models of warplane. In short, something will beat nothing.
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Land based aircraft could do all of this cheaper than sea based. One 40 year old carrier is not going to have the availability to provide what you are suggesting. Long range maritime patrol aircraft, both manned and drones, makes more sense.
Owens Z said:
If Indonesia wants Garibaldi simply as a helping ship for the region's occasional tsunami and cyclone problem, like what the job of Thailand's carrier Chakri Naruebet has become, then the elderly Italian vessel (with some big utility helicopters) would no doubt be useful in that coast guard function.
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Agree 100% it is better than nothing.

Dilandu said:
I suspect they would turn her into drone carrier. Its much cheaper than operate VTOL planes, and almost as efficient.
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I expect they could try. The record of success for Indonesia receiving used military equipment and converting it to another purpose isn't great...
 
This is not a done deal yet, as it has to go to MoF where they make the final assessment and also negotiate with Financial Institutions on credit financing term. If they don't get the deal, the credit line allotment must go back to the drawing board.

Basically Bappenas agree for USD 450 budget for taking over Garibaldi which Fincantieri according to their source agree to refurbish towards TNI-AL specs. Bappenas also agree for finance package for both Transport and Utilities/Specialist helicopters. Speculation talk about Bell that is a front runner with 412 and UH-1Z (please no we already have Mi-35 and AH-64E). Although there are also rumours the utility will be more for focused for anti submarine purpose.

Either way the usage for Garibaldi if being procure is not for VTOL Fighter carrier, but more as Helicopter assault and drone carrier.
 
Ozair said:
...Land based aircraft could do all of this cheaper than sea based. One 40 year old carrier is not going to have the availability to provide what you are suggesting. Long range maritime patrol aircraft, both manned and drones, makes more sense...
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It sounds like your quarrel is with aircraft carriers per se rather than with me, Ozair. Your view is of course shared by others. But somebody in Jakarta seems to disagree.
 
Owens Z said:
It sounds like your quarrel is with aircraft carriers per se rather than with me, Ozair. Your view is of course shared by others. But somebody in Jakarta seems to disagree.
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Nothing to do with aircraft carriers, they clearly have a place. Indonesia and aircraft carriers with the intent to power project is a different story. You used the example of
Owens Z said:
Instead, its modest complement of aircraft would be for controlling Indonesia's extensive sea lines of communication, far from land and the latest land-based airpower. To intercept a snooping long-range reconnaissance plane, sink merchant ships and fishing trawlers, or deter warships with no air cover would not require the newest models of warplane.
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Why would Indonesia need to control the sea lanes or sink merchant ships and fishing trawlers beyond their EEZ? Just through the Malacca alone there is 25% of global traffic shipping and Indonesia now has many shipping toll points given the volume of trade that flows through their country. The Indonesian EEZ can be completely controlled via land based assets without ever needing an aircraft carrier. Alternatively spend the same cash on a fleet of manned or unmanned OPVs.

What warships with no air cover are operating outside of the Indonesian EEZ that Indonesia would have to go after? Look north there is China and the Philippines, look west there is India, South is Australia and PNG isn't exactly a threat to the East.

As for someone in Jakarta disagreeing, I agree I'm not deciding on what they should spend their cash on but I can certainly comment on the poor justification and requirement to operate such a capability.
 
Ozair said:
The answer is as long as Indonesia want to as long as Indonesia is willing to accept longer and longer periods of no availability due to increased maintenance.
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You get a whole lot more costs that way, though.



Ozair said:
The GG will also be limited to AV-8B/F-35B, the second of which the Indonesians might not even be allowed to operate. Is there any real capability value in an AV-8B in the 2030s in SE Asia?
Click to expand...
Maybe, though I wouldn't want to be the only nation operating them. Learning curve for pilots of Harriers are really steep. If I was joking around, I'd say it's EVE Online steep, but it's not quite that bad.

XKCD EVE Online Learning Curve.jpg
 
Ozair said:
...If the Indonesians want a ship for disaster relief then the GG isn't the best fit, that is obvious. It might be cheap but will also come with a load of maintenance pain...
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ComradeVortex said:
Fincantieri estimates that the ship has 15-20 years of remaining operating life.
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Scott Kenny said:
You get a whole lot more costs that way, though...
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The 37-year-old French aircraft carrier Foch was sold to Brazil in 2000. She served for another seventeen years, but the Brazilian Navy was publicly unhappy with her poor condition, including a fatal steam burst accident, and the seemingly endless costly repairs needed. I cast no aspersion on the builder, Chantiers de l'Atlantique: operational carriers are run hard. But as for the Italian builder of carrier Giuseppe Garibaldi claiming an unlikely 60-year lifetime for that warship: if you're going to proceed, Jakarta, then get this in writing, with a hefty penalty clause in case of breach of contract.
 
Worth to notice, the aircraft carrier Giuseppe Garibaldi was mentioned during the 80th Indonesian National Armed Forces Anniversary parade.
 
So,any further information as to what aircraft the indonesian navy is going to be operating from it?.
F-35s?,or the far more likely,not to mention the far cheaper,helicopters & drones?.
 
ComradeVortex said:
DEFINITELY not F-35s. We don’t even have those.


Mainly drones and helicopters.
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I dont know man,if you awarded the donald a large enough nobel prize styled medal,he might be willing to make you an offer you cant refuse on those F-35s.;)

Seriously tho,when you see the size of it with just a small number of harriers parked on the back,it doesnt give you the impression of a lot of room.
I think it certainly makes more sense as a naval aviation drone carrier,even if you`d just be starting out with navalised versions of land based prop powered ucavs to begin with.
 
Sineva said:
So,any further information as to what aircraft the indonesian navy is going to be operating from it?.
F-35s?,or the far more likely,not to mention the far cheaper,helicopters & drones?.
Click to expand...
I'd expect helicopters and drones. STOL Reapers for AEW and MPA (two separate birds, not both at the same time), helos or drones for ASW attack.
 
Sineva said:
I dont know man,if you awarded the donald a large enough nobel prize styled medal,he might be willing to make you an offer you cant refuse on those F-35s.;)
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Unlikely, Indonesia is definitely not going to get any major US equipment…

Scott Kenny said:
I'd expect helicopters and drones. STOL Reapers for AEW and MPA (two separate birds, not both at the same time), helos or drones for ASW attack.
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Bayraktar TB3 is what the Indonesian Navy has. As for helos, I suspect it will be AH-64Es and Mi-35Ps that the Army has, the rest is utility helicopters that can or are already outfitted for light attack.
 
I hear that they would get Harriers. Wouldn't hurt to get some for the experience.
 
Desertfox said:
I hear that they would get Harriers. Wouldn't hurt to get some for the experience.
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As peppe has mentioned in post #11

archipeppe said:
Italian Navy will keep its Harriers as much as flight hours will be available.
The F-35 low production rate forces Italian Navy to operate with mixed air wing until program accomplishment.
Click to expand...
 
Sineva said:
So,any further information as to what aircraft the indonesian navy is going to be operating from it?.
F-35s?,or the far more likely,not to mention the far cheaper,helicopters & drones?.
Click to expand...
Helicopters & drones, most likely. Maybe they even install arresting gear on her, to handle landing of heavy drones (such refit would be relatively "compact")
 
ComradeVortex said:
Bayraktar TB3 is what the Indonesian Navy has. As for helos, I suspect it will be AH-64Es and Mi-35Ps that the Army has, the rest is utility helicopters that can or are already outfitted for light attack.
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By the way, Bayraktar Kizilelma is supposed to have a carrier-capable version - so in future Indonesian navy could get what is basically a transsonic unmanned fighter-bomber for its carrier.
 
ComradeVortex said:
Unlikely, Indonesia is definitely not going to get any major US equipment…


Bayraktar TB3 is what the Indonesian Navy has. As for helos, I suspect it will be AH-64Es and Mi-35Ps that the Army has, the rest is utility helicopters that can or are already outfitted for light attack.
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The AH-64Es and Mi-35Ps are not really suited for naval duties though, are they? I imagine improved corrosion resistance may be a missing feature. Would AH-1Z be considered major US equipment? Otherwise Ka-52K may be an option.
 
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EmoBirb said:
The AH-64Es and Mi-35Ps are not really suited for naval duties though, are they? I imagine improved corrosion resistance may be a missing feature. Would AH-1Z be considered major US equipment? Otherwise Ka-52K may be an option.
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Eh, maybe? The attack helicopters are still under the army, the navy has helos better suited for naval use configured for light attack.
There was speculation about AH-1Z but i still suspect that politics will not make it an option, same story for Ka-52K.
 
One interesting way forward for such carriers(especially given that smaller harrier dies out without replacement) is emerging fast helicopter type.
They offer range and far more substantial ability to cover space.
EmoBirb said:
Otherwise Ka-52K may be an option.
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Ironic how ka-52 family(being such a wrong attack helicopter) emerges, almost by accident, as a harbinger of things. Simply b/c it's in effect what Sea Apache was supposed to be - a rotary multirole aircraft, rather than ground attack slecialist.
 
Owens Z said:
Thanks for the good notice, GTX. A large island nation, especially one astride world trade routes like Indonesia, seems like a natural for naval aviation. But an age of forty years is old for a ship: I wonder how much remaining life the aircraft carrier would have in Indonesian service.
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I’d think of it as a training ship rather than an active carrier.

A year or two of familiarization with the ship itself, a year or two learning flight ops, and I would expect they’d be using the first 4 years to define basic requirements for a future carrier.
Next 2-6 years getting comfortable with flight ops, and either buying an old but younger LHD to add a ramp to, or for constructing their own brand new carrier.
 

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