Dilandu
I'm dissatisfied, which means, I exist.
Well, author stated -
- so, one important question: did they participate in WW2? If yes, then on which side?
Advise my fictional state II
- Thread starter zen
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- so, one important question: did they participate in WW2? If yes, then on which side?
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The patterns of colonisation by the European powers in the region make it unlikely at best that the Zen Continent would not have received the attentions of the Portugese, Spanish, Dutch, French or British.
Japan resisted outside influence until the 19th Century but then was heavily impacted.
Assuming a similarity to India rather than Africa in levels of development, Zen Land would at best have been forced to trade with France and Britain but more likely suffered the same fate as India in the 18th Century.
Assuming it is divided on the lines of Zen's description with a Northern Egyptian Soviet client state and a fomer British colony to the South I am even more confused.
If the British had gained a foothold in the South you can be sure that others would have taken an interest in rhe North and Centre.
The British would have contested this vigorously and moved out of their enclave.
This Continent would have been too tempting for the Colonial Powers to carve up.
Japan resisted outside influence until the 19th Century but then was heavily impacted.
Assuming a similarity to India rather than Africa in levels of development, Zen Land would at best have been forced to trade with France and Britain but more likely suffered the same fate as India in the 18th Century.
Assuming it is divided on the lines of Zen's description with a Northern Egyptian Soviet client state and a fomer British colony to the South I am even more confused.
If the British had gained a foothold in the South you can be sure that others would have taken an interest in rhe North and Centre.
The British would have contested this vigorously and moved out of their enclave.
This Continent would have been too tempting for the Colonial Powers to carve up.
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In area were Arabs, British, French, Portuguese, Spain, Germany and Dutch fight over each square inch of Territory ?
How to hell they manage remain independent, Just like Ethiopia ?
Play the Superpowers against each other and make sure in Scramble for Africa of 1884
They remain independent (so if this nation not get it, make sure the other europeans powers also not !)
This created The Free state of Congo under Belgium King Leopold II...
This is probably the best reply and frankly the most useful. Many thanks.
Questions.
Would it be worth it to invest at that time (late 60's) into a new military engine? Or focus on licensing? An Attack aircraft fleet could number over 200.
Ground attack for the North seems to favour cheap propeller driven aircraft. Which can achieve a decent STOL operation from rough fields. This definitely an area for domestic industry.
But helicopters seem to me to be an expensive and difficult system to get working, let alone get it right.
A common platform for Tanker, Transport and other roles was examined by the UK and I think the US. But if memory serves, including MPA tended to kill the idea.
It's safe to assume aviation goes back to WWI, so coastal patrols seem an obvious one.
1. The Xeselan Empire has a vibrant domestic industry, agriculture and resource extraction.
2. Plains nomads were the last conquerors.
3. Colonised by the Xeselani, reduced to an ethnic minority. The days of their ethnic cavalry are now a fading memory.
WWII....
Sensing it's better the Devils you know and that they can exert more influence regionally. They back the removal of French Madagascar and return the Merina Kingdom to power....though the French retain the South.
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Ok let us cut our all the fantasy baloney and talk kit
200.attack aircraft.
Coin aircraft turbo prop not jet
MPA.
Tanker.
Transport.
As Zen does not want to use real world kit its over to Beyond the Sprues and Shipbucket territory.
200.attack aircraft.
Coin aircraft turbo prop not jet
MPA.
Tanker.
Transport.
As Zen does not want to use real world kit its over to Beyond the Sprues and Shipbucket territory.
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martinbayer
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Don't forget Whatifmodellers.
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It does sound rather far fetched. If it had a tree on it, it was colonised.
D
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Indeed. It also seems far too strategically placed not to have become "re-colonized" earlier in the Cold War. Not to mention unreasonably affluent for that part of the world to have such choice, at a time when European powers are looking to joint ventures to cover all their requirements....
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Zen mate, I hope you are not taking responses as personal. I doubt anyone intends a negative affect on you. The logic of the nation you envisage just does not stand knowing what we all know about the world amd how nationhood evolves.
I find lots of threads that don't interest me, or even outright repulse and to which I don't contribute. Sadly that consideration is not reciprocated.
Frankly certain individuals have taken a spiteful, abusive and personal approach here.
It hardly seems necessary to a debate on the merits of industrial policy and military requirements, to elaborate on a history of resistance to European Conquest.
Which frankly only succeeded against certain civilisations by virtue of timing and their failed policies.
This gets to the level of thread hijacking.
The OP is obviously a free space for debate on the merits of certain system choices and benefits of what to provide from domestic against imports or licensing.
If one wants to delve deeper, since contact would be the 1500s were conquest was simply not remotely possible and location is ideal for supply of trade seeking out the Spice Islands, India and China.
Scale prevents conquest and local civilisation can provide resources. Trade and exchange of knowledge ensues. As it did in contact with other civilisations.
What marks out the Eastern Coastal civilisation is it adapts, learns invents and grows.
By the time European powers attempt conquest, the situation permits use of a client Tribal Kingdom in the south and leverage of the smaller Malagassy states in the North.
But the Centre has grown too strong, too organised, and grasps the European mindset sufficiently to counter it.
Frankly certain individuals have taken a spiteful, abusive and personal approach here.
It hardly seems necessary to a debate on the merits of industrial policy and military requirements, to elaborate on a history of resistance to European Conquest.
Which frankly only succeeded against certain civilisations by virtue of timing and their failed policies.
This gets to the level of thread hijacking.
The OP is obviously a free space for debate on the merits of certain system choices and benefits of what to provide from domestic against imports or licensing.
If one wants to delve deeper, since contact would be the 1500s were conquest was simply not remotely possible and location is ideal for supply of trade seeking out the Spice Islands, India and China.
Scale prevents conquest and local civilisation can provide resources. Trade and exchange of knowledge ensues. As it did in contact with other civilisations.
What marks out the Eastern Coastal civilisation is it adapts, learns invents and grows.
By the time European powers attempt conquest, the situation permits use of a client Tribal Kingdom in the south and leverage of the smaller Malagassy states in the North.
But the Centre has grown too strong, too organised, and grasps the European mindset sufficiently to counter it.
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I am sorry Zen that you take my comments amiss.
Perhaps 25 years working for the British Government sometimes in the part of the world closest to your fantasy land and a degree in Modern History from a university near the Cotswolds does not qualify me to pass such comments. But as long as I am polite and draw on established facts you are stuck with them.
As a mild suggestion well meant this sort of exercise would get a more positive hearing on the excellent Beyond the Sprues and Shipbucket sites which do this sort of thing really much better. Perhaps Hood could help you.
Perhaps 25 years working for the British Government sometimes in the part of the world closest to your fantasy land and a degree in Modern History from a university near the Cotswolds does not qualify me to pass such comments. But as long as I am polite and draw on established facts you are stuck with them.
As a mild suggestion well meant this sort of exercise would get a more positive hearing on the excellent Beyond the Sprues and Shipbucket sites which do this sort of thing really much better. Perhaps Hood could help you.
Dilandu
I'm dissatisfied, which means, I exist.
Dilandu
I'm dissatisfied, which means, I exist.
There is a contradiction: a strong center would conquer weak North and South states. To be strong enough to really deter European efforts, center essentially need to be Westernized enough to allow industrialization - and in that case, center would start to expand, taking over its neighborhood. Look at Japan as example. Japan was essentially the most prominent example of sucsessful Westernization - and still, was forced to endure decades of unequal treaties, forced by European powers in mid-XIX century.
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In an effort to smooth over political debate, may I suggest that the southern coast of Zenland has a few British client-state city-states (think United Arab Emirates) that are little more than coastal trading ports?
Similarly, the north coast of Zenland was a series of small Portugese/Swahili speaking city-states. During the 1960s, Portugese colonial administrators were ousted during a Soviet-backed coup-d'etat, but North Zenland is far too poor to invade Central Zenland on its own. North Zenland is such a mess that they struggle to mount fishery patrols.
It helped that most of the citizens of Central Zenland came from the same tribe and same religion. Like Moors, they have a benevolent attitude towards other religions. As long as religious minorities pay tithes to Zenland temples. no one else cares which god they worship. The central kingdom remained strong enough to discourage invasion by Europeans. Besides, the central kingdom consistently delivered enough trade goods (spices, rare metals, food, etc.) to coastal trading ports, that there was little need for Europeans to invade. Europeans could turn a profit by buying goods from locals, without the added expense of policing the interior.
Along the way, Brits decided that it was better to send a few of the brightest locals to British universities (e.g. London School of Economics) to become competent mine managers, bank managers, etc. Eventually Scottish professors even established a Central Zenland University to train local mid-level managers, doctors, engineers, etc.
Similarly, the north coast of Zenland was a series of small Portugese/Swahili speaking city-states. During the 1960s, Portugese colonial administrators were ousted during a Soviet-backed coup-d'etat, but North Zenland is far too poor to invade Central Zenland on its own. North Zenland is such a mess that they struggle to mount fishery patrols.
It helped that most of the citizens of Central Zenland came from the same tribe and same religion. Like Moors, they have a benevolent attitude towards other religions. As long as religious minorities pay tithes to Zenland temples. no one else cares which god they worship. The central kingdom remained strong enough to discourage invasion by Europeans. Besides, the central kingdom consistently delivered enough trade goods (spices, rare metals, food, etc.) to coastal trading ports, that there was little need for Europeans to invade. Europeans could turn a profit by buying goods from locals, without the added expense of policing the interior.
Along the way, Brits decided that it was better to send a few of the brightest locals to British universities (e.g. London School of Economics) to become competent mine managers, bank managers, etc. Eventually Scottish professors even established a Central Zenland University to train local mid-level managers, doctors, engineers, etc.
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Central Zenland probably got their start with batches of World War 2 surplus military airplanes. By the 1960s, those would be worn out, so perhaps the Central Zenland aircraft industry learned their trade while doing major over-hauls on WW2 surplus airplanes. By the time you are into replacing corroded wing spars, you know almost enough to build entirely new wings. Central Zenland engineers may also have converted a few WW2 surplus piston-pounders to turbo-props by the late 1960s.
P-51 Mustangs might be okay for killing communist insurgents along the northern borders, but in-line Merlin engines were getting scarce by the late 1960s. For alternate choices of WW2-surplus airplanes, look to the Royal Canadian Navy's experience during the 1950s. The RCN started the 1950s with (Rolls-Royce, in-line Merlins and Griffins) Seafires, Fireflies and Lancasters, but ended with Avengers, Trackers, Neptunes and Argus all powered by American-made radial engines.* American-made radials proved far more reliable.
We doubt if the Central Zenland Navy will ever be able to afford an aircraft carrier large enough to launch A-4 Skyhawks.
* Yes, I know that factually-dogmatic critics will complain about me blurring RCAF long range maritime patrol airplanes into the RCN ....
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mmmm a country with trading ports in the Indian Ocean.
The Admiralty begun to get interested in these from the 18th Century.
The East India Company had established good relations with the Portugese estates on the Northern Coast. Finding tribal rulers similar to those in India and the Arabian Peninsular, the Company soon set up its own offices there.
The 19th Century saw the Company's activities transfered to the Colonial Office and the Board of Trade.
Zenland's exotic culture and resistance to the great Religions fascinated but also irritated Victorian British policy makers.
As elsewhere Scottish business farming and scientific interests found a place in Zenland.
The eve of World War One saw the Admiralty again looking at the ports of this bizarre semi continent. It sat astride the Route to India and the Royal Navy was a frequent visitor to its ports. The Sultans, as British residents insisted on calling the Southern family rulers, permitted Coaling Stations.
Relations with Central Zenland started to resemble 55 days in Peking. The UK, US, France, Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, Turkey and Japan all had legations in its capital city. The local ruling and business class were happy to learn what they could from these foreign guests and procure material goods and technology. Like the peoples of India the Xen as they became known were quick learners and industrious workers.
In 1919 Zenland joined the League of Nations. It had been able to remain aloof from the Great War but was able to pick up military aircraft and warships at bargain prices as the combatants returned to peace.
By 1931 Zenland had aircraft from Britain, France, Germany and the United States. It had developed its own aircraft industry, initially to keep these flying.
The 1930s were a time of economic challenges as trade fell and the legations of Germany, Italy, Japan and the Soviet Union were hard at work trying to win the Xens over to their causes.
Unfortunately much like Brazil Zenland looked to the United States for inspiration.
Ford helped establish a motor industry. Douglas and Lockheed vied to supply Zenland Airways with aircraft produced locally.
Britain had been content to deal with the Southern Sultans and the Portugese estates rather than the Xen who one British Ambassador called "flamboyantly enigmatic".
Zenland was far enough away from the theatres of war in the Second War to enjoy a similar position to Brazil. US fighter and bomber aircraft arrived to modernise its aircraft.Unlike Brazil Zenland maintained cordial relations with Japan and the Axis powers. Some unusual equipment found its way into the Xen inventory.
Indian independence reduced British interest still further. Egypt and Persia gave Whitehall enough to worry about. British companies, however, were happy to carve out a share of the market.
The Portugese were not to relinquish the Norrhern Estates until 1975 and the end of the Salazar dictatorship. Guerillas backed by Egypt and the USSR fought an increasingly bloody war with the Estates.
Similar groups in the South were put down by the Sultans. The regular deployment of aircraft carriers transiting to Singapore and finding a warmer welcome than Aden gave airpower as did regular RAF transits by V bombers. These were due to end by 1971 but Lightning fighters and Bloodhound missiles were already transfered to the Sultanates by 1968.
So this is the position Zenland at the end of the 1960s. A combination of wise commodity exploitation and industrialisation since 1900 made it an oasis of stability and a popular if sometimes baffling diplomatic posting.
The Admiralty begun to get interested in these from the 18th Century.
The East India Company had established good relations with the Portugese estates on the Northern Coast. Finding tribal rulers similar to those in India and the Arabian Peninsular, the Company soon set up its own offices there.
The 19th Century saw the Company's activities transfered to the Colonial Office and the Board of Trade.
Zenland's exotic culture and resistance to the great Religions fascinated but also irritated Victorian British policy makers.
As elsewhere Scottish business farming and scientific interests found a place in Zenland.
The eve of World War One saw the Admiralty again looking at the ports of this bizarre semi continent. It sat astride the Route to India and the Royal Navy was a frequent visitor to its ports. The Sultans, as British residents insisted on calling the Southern family rulers, permitted Coaling Stations.
Relations with Central Zenland started to resemble 55 days in Peking. The UK, US, France, Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, Turkey and Japan all had legations in its capital city. The local ruling and business class were happy to learn what they could from these foreign guests and procure material goods and technology. Like the peoples of India the Xen as they became known were quick learners and industrious workers.
In 1919 Zenland joined the League of Nations. It had been able to remain aloof from the Great War but was able to pick up military aircraft and warships at bargain prices as the combatants returned to peace.
By 1931 Zenland had aircraft from Britain, France, Germany and the United States. It had developed its own aircraft industry, initially to keep these flying.
The 1930s were a time of economic challenges as trade fell and the legations of Germany, Italy, Japan and the Soviet Union were hard at work trying to win the Xens over to their causes.
Unfortunately much like Brazil Zenland looked to the United States for inspiration.
Ford helped establish a motor industry. Douglas and Lockheed vied to supply Zenland Airways with aircraft produced locally.
Britain had been content to deal with the Southern Sultans and the Portugese estates rather than the Xen who one British Ambassador called "flamboyantly enigmatic".
Zenland was far enough away from the theatres of war in the Second War to enjoy a similar position to Brazil. US fighter and bomber aircraft arrived to modernise its aircraft.Unlike Brazil Zenland maintained cordial relations with Japan and the Axis powers. Some unusual equipment found its way into the Xen inventory.
Indian independence reduced British interest still further. Egypt and Persia gave Whitehall enough to worry about. British companies, however, were happy to carve out a share of the market.
The Portugese were not to relinquish the Norrhern Estates until 1975 and the end of the Salazar dictatorship. Guerillas backed by Egypt and the USSR fought an increasingly bloody war with the Estates.
Similar groups in the South were put down by the Sultans. The regular deployment of aircraft carriers transiting to Singapore and finding a warmer welcome than Aden gave airpower as did regular RAF transits by V bombers. These were due to end by 1971 but Lightning fighters and Bloodhound missiles were already transfered to the Sultanates by 1968.
So this is the position Zenland at the end of the 1960s. A combination of wise commodity exploitation and industrialisation since 1900 made it an oasis of stability and a popular if sometimes baffling diplomatic posting.
Dilandu
I'm dissatisfied, which means, I exist.
Er, I quite doubt that neutral nation could enjoy the similar position as allied Brazil. Most likely selling anything to Zen would not be of any priority to USA - not to mention the problematic logistic (anything that may be sent to Zen, may be sent through Iran to USSR with much better effect). And "coridal relations with Japan and Axis powers"... Frankly, much more probable reaction from US would be suspicions and constant pressure to make sure that Zen would not become... problematic in vital region.
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Zenland though neutral has a diffcult relationship with the British Empire. It is much closer in temperament and outlook to the US ( a bit like the Shah of Iran).
Hence a close relationship builds up with the US in the 20th Century. Not like the Philippines but a useful counterweight to British influence in the region.
Aircraft are delivered via Portugese possessions in Africa and.Saudi Arabia (sorry not quite sure of the ranges). Shipping is out of range of all but Vichy navy?
Hence a close relationship builds up with the US in the 20th Century. Not like the Philippines but a useful counterweight to British influence in the region.
Aircraft are delivered via Portugese possessions in Africa and.Saudi Arabia (sorry not quite sure of the ranges). Shipping is out of range of all but Vichy navy?
Dilandu
I'm dissatisfied, which means, I exist.
Er, Philippines were essentially US colony. In early 20 century, US weren't exactly interested in building close relationships with anyone - and most definitely not in the area, where it would cause immediate conflict of interests with both Britain and France. And again, Brazil "special status" during WW2 was caused by the fact that Brazil joined the fight and was an active ally of US. Neutral Zen hardly could demand such status. At most, US may agree to sell Zen some weapon during the war to ensure that it would not sway toward the Axis (or wouldn't been quickly conquered by Japanese).
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Sorry I am bad at typing on my phone.
should have been not a colony like the Phil.
I am drawing my inspiration for US action from the Jules Verne story about a floating island owned by two wealthy US businessmen in which American animosity toward the British pre WW1 is featured.
US and UK were rivals in the Persian Gulf between the Wars. Chamberlain disliked Roosevelt. US opinion was hostile to the British Empire. A quirky modern enlightened nation near British India would have been a welcome market and partner for the US.
Though neutral Zenland does tend toward the US and is leaning to joining the Allies in 1944.
Trying to keep the place close to what others seem to suggest so not wedded to any of my story but it does get the place to where Zen wanted it to be in the late 1960s with former British protected States to the South and a.Mozambique like poorly armed North unable to do much to Zenland.
Zenland itself is more pro US than India but still a member of the Non aligned nations at UNO. Its economy is somewhere between Argentina and Spain.
Its budget is sufficient to offer to buy Arromanche from.France with Super Frelon ASW and commando helos. Or at least thats what the DA at the British Embassy was told over a good lunch with his French counterpart.
should have been not a colony like the Phil.
I am drawing my inspiration for US action from the Jules Verne story about a floating island owned by two wealthy US businessmen in which American animosity toward the British pre WW1 is featured.
US and UK were rivals in the Persian Gulf between the Wars. Chamberlain disliked Roosevelt. US opinion was hostile to the British Empire. A quirky modern enlightened nation near British India would have been a welcome market and partner for the US.
Though neutral Zenland does tend toward the US and is leaning to joining the Allies in 1944.
Trying to keep the place close to what others seem to suggest so not wedded to any of my story but it does get the place to where Zen wanted it to be in the late 1960s with former British protected States to the South and a.Mozambique like poorly armed North unable to do much to Zenland.
Zenland itself is more pro US than India but still a member of the Non aligned nations at UNO. Its economy is somewhere between Argentina and Spain.
Its budget is sufficient to offer to buy Arromanche from.France with Super Frelon ASW and commando helos. Or at least thats what the DA at the British Embassy was told over a good lunch with his French counterpart.
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See this is where we're getting very far away from the topic, going well beyond necessary context to flagrant indulgence and I presume that some are just carried away with things.
It seems that some however are taking things far in order to bring this thread down, having tried lambasting me for daring to post something they don't approve of. . Another tactic.
And while I have names and a history sketched out. It's not really necessary for the topic to go into this sort if depth. Unless we want to talk about the average male pilot from the majority population of this state or say the issues around translation and a different measurement system. It could be argued that culture does have a significant influence of proclivities towards certain international relations or favour certain tactical behaviour. But does it really change decisions on aircraft?
I've never called this Zenland, that is UK75 being derogatory. In fact I've avoided throwing in names much or ethnic and racial composition.
Because it's not strictly necessary.
One could just say Continent T, Country XE bordered by Country Tw to the South and Countries ABC to the North.
What is, is geography and environment (my bad on not elaborating much detail in the OP), scale and potential composition of threatening forces.
In that, you have a well equipped by western providers threat to the South constrained by a narrow land bridge and a more disparate threat from the North over jungle and mountains equipped by the Soviets.
I never even got to the point of mentioning a possible dispute with South Africa since rather obviously my concentration was on what is better to fund in the more immediate context of neighbouring threats.
It seems that some however are taking things far in order to bring this thread down, having tried lambasting me for daring to post something they don't approve of. . Another tactic.
And while I have names and a history sketched out. It's not really necessary for the topic to go into this sort if depth. Unless we want to talk about the average male pilot from the majority population of this state or say the issues around translation and a different measurement system. It could be argued that culture does have a significant influence of proclivities towards certain international relations or favour certain tactical behaviour. But does it really change decisions on aircraft?
I've never called this Zenland, that is UK75 being derogatory. In fact I've avoided throwing in names much or ethnic and racial composition.
Because it's not strictly necessary.
One could just say Continent T, Country XE bordered by Country Tw to the South and Countries ABC to the North.
What is, is geography and environment (my bad on not elaborating much detail in the OP), scale and potential composition of threatening forces.
In that, you have a well equipped by western providers threat to the South constrained by a narrow land bridge and a more disparate threat from the North over jungle and mountains equipped by the Soviets.
I never even got to the point of mentioning a possible dispute with South Africa since rather obviously my concentration was on what is better to fund in the more immediate context of neighbouring threats.
On WWII, the XE would view change as the potential to break out of effective confinement from European Powers. Having been previouslydisappointedby Germany.
That would obviously start with Madagascar and post war on Mozambique (actually the Kilwa Sultanate). With the aim of increasing contact with Ethiopia.
But it doesn't follow that they'd view the IJN entry into the Indian Ocean as a positive.
More like the entry of another power bent on sucking wealth and resources away to themselves.
So throwing their weight behind Streamline Jane or even going ahead with Allied backing and transport is step 1. The Allies (except for the French) see this as freeing their resources for elsewhere.
The fall of Madagascar to the French being one of those moments when XE's hopes and illusions are dashed.
Post War however France is able for historical reasons to keep South Madagascar part of the French Empire. Independence of this Republic however is subject to Communist takeover directly connected to the overthrow of the Kilwa Sultanate and events in Somalia. This feeds similar events in the Northern ABC states.
Worse is to the South, which since it's creation was based on British backing to help eject the Dutch from this key position in global trade routes. Country Tw is run by openly hostile (to XE) leadership. When the British leave in the 60's, Tw's avowedly anti-communist attitudes obviously garner favourable access to Western finance and equipment.
That would obviously start with Madagascar and post war on Mozambique (actually the Kilwa Sultanate). With the aim of increasing contact with Ethiopia.
But it doesn't follow that they'd view the IJN entry into the Indian Ocean as a positive.
More like the entry of another power bent on sucking wealth and resources away to themselves.
So throwing their weight behind Streamline Jane or even going ahead with Allied backing and transport is step 1. The Allies (except for the French) see this as freeing their resources for elsewhere.
The fall of Madagascar to the French being one of those moments when XE's hopes and illusions are dashed.
Post War however France is able for historical reasons to keep South Madagascar part of the French Empire. Independence of this Republic however is subject to Communist takeover directly connected to the overthrow of the Kilwa Sultanate and events in Somalia. This feeds similar events in the Northern ABC states.
Worse is to the South, which since it's creation was based on British backing to help eject the Dutch from this key position in global trade routes. Country Tw is run by openly hostile (to XE) leadership. When the British leave in the 60's, Tw's avowedly anti-communist attitudes obviously garner favourable access to Western finance and equipment.
Dilandu
I'm dissatisfied, which means, I exist.
I get that when we delve into an AH scenario and explain that the F4 Phantom isn't always the best answer. You seem to show you're being convinced and then suddenly go "but me F4 Phantom!!!???"
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....my brain also
What Zen working on is a deep end Point of difference by introducing a complete new continent.
This offers great working place but also allot of open question and options and problems!
Alone on alternative evolution of Animals and plants on this continent could fill books... (see Madagascar or New Zealand)
Then interaction with humans who settle this Continent
and there will several waves of Settlers coming in last 10000 years ! (see England history as Example)
I prefer to work with Point of difference who lies decades or maximum a century in past.
This make the Alternate History story clearly to read
i have Alternate Story about German Empire won WW1 and WW2
But it's 100 years story line, what make this a very complex reading...
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I think the problem with these types of scenarios is that there is a tendency to try and unpick the geographical and political factors behind nation building. Like I said at the start, even on the technical issues we have massive unknowns about what has been done and what is possible. Have they developed reliable engines in the past? What natural resources do they have and is all their aluminium imported? Can they afford an NACA/TsAGI/RAE research centre to help them? How many companies exist? Did the chief designers learn their trade overseas? Did foreign designers go there? Etc. etc.
These are questions for Zen, it's his creation and only he knows the answers.
I think what would be best would be a pared down Blueland Vs Redland with Greenland as contributing factor type scenario would be better.
But as I've said before, Soviet client states in these regions largely got the low-end spectrum stuff, BTR-152s, a MiG-15 and a few cases of AK-47s and some advisers to translate the 2-page operators manual. I see nothing that warrants a bleeding-edge response.
And - this might be unpopular but its largely true - West Germany, Japan and Italy seriously underperformed in any aviation activity in the 50s-90s beyond a few niche areas compared with their pre-war industries (the UK could nearly fall into this too). India and Brazil started their industries post war at the same time, today Brazil has a string of successes, India still has vapourware and licenced-built kit. South Africa tried high-tech autarky and only just began to reach some interesting peaks just as the old regime toppled. All these nations were largely wedded to buying Western and having a small local industry to fill in the lower end bits.
I'd say Zenland might be capable of a Fuji T-1 or Marut at best, but it wouldn't surprise me if they built Huey kits and got some Neptune P-2s off MAP and brought some Avro 748s or DHC Caribous or kept on refurbing Daks for another 30 years. As for home-built jets, I'd say very unlikely unless its something like a bog standard Orpheus or Marbore (as was pointed out recently elsewhere on the forum, few nations have actually managed to build indigenous jets that were successful or cost effective given R&D costs needing to be amortised over small production runs).
These are questions for Zen, it's his creation and only he knows the answers.
I think what would be best would be a pared down Blueland Vs Redland with Greenland as contributing factor type scenario would be better.
But as I've said before, Soviet client states in these regions largely got the low-end spectrum stuff, BTR-152s, a MiG-15 and a few cases of AK-47s and some advisers to translate the 2-page operators manual. I see nothing that warrants a bleeding-edge response.
And - this might be unpopular but its largely true - West Germany, Japan and Italy seriously underperformed in any aviation activity in the 50s-90s beyond a few niche areas compared with their pre-war industries (the UK could nearly fall into this too). India and Brazil started their industries post war at the same time, today Brazil has a string of successes, India still has vapourware and licenced-built kit. South Africa tried high-tech autarky and only just began to reach some interesting peaks just as the old regime toppled. All these nations were largely wedded to buying Western and having a small local industry to fill in the lower end bits.
I'd say Zenland might be capable of a Fuji T-1 or Marut at best, but it wouldn't surprise me if they built Huey kits and got some Neptune P-2s off MAP and brought some Avro 748s or DHC Caribous or kept on refurbing Daks for another 30 years. As for home-built jets, I'd say very unlikely unless its something like a bog standard Orpheus or Marbore (as was pointed out recently elsewhere on the forum, few nations have actually managed to build indigenous jets that were successful or cost effective given R&D costs needing to be amortised over small production runs).
martinbayer
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Dilandu
I'm dissatisfied, which means, I exist.
It depend on how valuable they are.
D
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[F-4 Defence]Triggered
My actual first thought reading through the OP was "well, F-4E if they can get it" before reading further. I'm detecting subtle hints that that isn't the answer you want. You asked what to build. I'll try to break down my reasoning as concisely and succinctly as I can.
The first duty of any air arm is to be able to defend it's assets-various (up to and including the home nation itself) from hostile airpower. Transport, ISR and maritime patrol don't matter one iota if they take an Atoll up the arse on every sortie! So the answer is: build a fighter. In the late-60s you defined, there isn't a better radar, weapon/warload and performance package available than the F-4E. Package is the operative there, as in "it is the whole....". The A-G and recce capabilities are great added bonuses.
Now, unfortunately, I don't believe for a second that a sub-Saharan nation will get any F-4s due to US export policy of that era. Where you have positioned your nation makes it sub-Saharan African as far as I'm concerned, connected thereto or not. So the F-4 is not the answer but if the F-4 doesn't even deign a mention, then something has gone spectacularly wrong here! Simply put, the F-4 is the best any air force can aspire to in the late-60s and a pretty useful yardstick to this discussion.
My actual first thought reading through the OP was "well, F-4E if they can get it" before reading further. I'm detecting subtle hints that that isn't the answer you want. You asked what to build. I'll try to break down my reasoning as concisely and succinctly as I can.
The first duty of any air arm is to be able to defend it's assets-various (up to and including the home nation itself) from hostile airpower. Transport, ISR and maritime patrol don't matter one iota if they take an Atoll up the arse on every sortie! So the answer is: build a fighter. In the late-60s you defined, there isn't a better radar, weapon/warload and performance package available than the F-4E. Package is the operative there, as in "it is the whole....". The A-G and recce capabilities are great added bonuses.
Now, unfortunately, I don't believe for a second that a sub-Saharan nation will get any F-4s due to US export policy of that era. Where you have positioned your nation makes it sub-Saharan African as far as I'm concerned, connected thereto or not. So the F-4 is not the answer but if the F-4 doesn't even deign a mention, then something has gone spectacularly wrong here! Simply put, the F-4 is the best any air force can aspire to in the late-60s and a pretty useful yardstick to this discussion.
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Dilandu
I'm dissatisfied, which means, I exist.
Different things. Firstly, it may be a willingness to follow the Soviet politics and do what Moscow wanted (for example, Cuba, while never formally an ally, was extremely trusted satellite, because they provided well-trained and eager "volunteers" for operation in places like Africa). Secondly, it may be a strategic position; Vietnam, for example, gave USSR a perfect base nearby one of the most important maritime traffic areas. Thirdly, it may be just the ability to hinder Western powers actions (like when USSR contemplated providing military help to Argentina during Falkland War; no one in Moscow liked Junta, but the possibility of creating problems - maybe even outright defeat! - for British, was attractive). Fourthly, it may be some valuable resources, that USSR have interest in.
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May I compare your F-4 proposal with the Royal Canadian Air Force's experience during the 1960s?
The RCAF dearly wanted F-4 Phantoms, but the Canadian Parliament was not willing to spend that much money. Instead the RCAF ended up with some second-hand F-101 Voodoo interceptors. The long-range, all-weather F-101 was a perfect fit for the NORAD defense role and were available for a song ... er ... trade us a few instructor pilots for a few years. This left the RCAF without serious ground attack airplanes, but since Parliament was not willing to fully fund an all-arms rapid-reaction force (too few transport airplanes, too few troop ships, etc.).
I doubt if the Zenland Parliament is willing to pay massive amounts of foreign exchange dollars to buy F-4 Phantoms.
The OP has already stated that Zenland would prefer to manufacture their own airplanes.
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Would an uprated F-101 do the trick perhaps? If you want to save money it could do the job, at a pinch. Problems are if they want to produce their own airframes new rather than upgrade second hand types and if they have the experience/capability to do so
Dilandu
I'm dissatisfied, which means, I exist.
Then it must be something simple. F-5 or Mig-19, maybe?
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Guilty as charged on my always raising the F4 and other real world options.
Not guilty on trying to trash the thread (I still like Zenland and Xens- too much Star Trek TOS I know)
Rather than a continent I lifted one of the contribution suggestions to make it less intrusive on real world geography.
I tried to include all the elements that had been suggested but more like the world we know.
In particular Zenland has the economic heft and industrial base to do the things that it wants without importing our usual range of options.
Hood is very familiar with alt nation building from the truly excellent Shipbucket site.
Not guilty on trying to trash the thread (I still like Zenland and Xens- too much Star Trek TOS I know)
Rather than a continent I lifted one of the contribution suggestions to make it less intrusive on real world geography.
I tried to include all the elements that had been suggested but more like the world we know.
In particular Zenland has the economic heft and industrial base to do the things that it wants without importing our usual range of options.
Hood is very familiar with alt nation building from the truly excellent Shipbucket site.
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