Turkish UAV Developments & Fielding

[red admiral]

View attachment 670140

Is there anything on the perceived role of this concept? It seems a lot like Akinci but trades persistence for a bit more speed and looking a bit stealthy. Why not just put more powerful turboprops on Akinci if there's a need for something faster?

 

[Combat-Master]

View attachment 670140

Is there anything on the perceived role of this concept? It seems a lot like Akinci but trades persistence for a bit more speed and looking a bit stealthy. Why not just put more powerful turboprops on Akinci if there's a need for something faster?

It's being developed specifically for aircraft carrier-based operations.

 

[Combat-Master]

I wouldn't call it innefficient, it is a an effective cheap drone like many others that just got lucky with a very permissive engagement climate vs mostly ancient and outmatched foes.

That list is 90% ancient Soviet AD. The only actually active modern AD the drone destroyed was a few Pantsir firing units (not even batteries mind you). Used by irregular militaries or the Syrians, which have a poor record against anything modern, Bayraktar or not Bayraktar.

I mean counting a Tor-M2 that the Armenians parked in a shed before it was bombed by an Israeli munition as a success of Bayraktar? What reco drone wouldn't do the same? That whole conflict was one ridiculously outmatched/outspent side being pounded after half their AD was destroyed by surprise attack or swarmed by modified drone An-2s.


I don't see any actual evidence of "jolting" within Russia, just projection on the part of analysts (or outright propaganda articles like that absolutely ridiculous Oryx article. From that article you would think a full modern force of Tor/Pantsir/S-400 backed up by full EW equipment was crushed by a couple drones lol).

That Armenian TOR-M2 if you had watched the video, was in active search mode with it's search radar rotating all the while being targeted by TB2, what munition or method used to destroy it is irrelevant when an AD system fails to even shoot down or detect the drone that it's being watched by.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OZDM8dd7w0


The fact that Russia had to reassure it's customer base that it's newer generation of Pantsir and Tor would be more effective against drones is clarity in itself - there's a deficiency that Russia is aware of, whether those deficiencies have been fixed - well we shall see, there's a reason why Russia has downed TB2s. And there's a reason why Turkey is developing TB3 - the cat and mouse game is never ending.

 

[Ahriman]

cheap drone like TB2

Relative to what? A modern fighter jet? An aircraft carrier? SSBN?
As it stands 24 drones cost Poland whereabouts $260 million. Granted, it includes not only the craft, but control stations and ammunition, but we can use it as a reference to extimate a single drone in operation being worth ~ $10,8 million.

Turkey Exports Bayraktar TB2 UCAVs to Poland

Turkey`s first operational UCAV, Bayraktar TB2, designed and developed indigenously by Baykar Defense, will be exported to Poland. The export contract was signed at the Presidential Complex by Baykar General Manager Haluk Bayraktar and Polish Defense Minister Mariusz Blaszczak in the presence of...

www.defenceturkey.com

That means that whole Lybian intervention, with 20 TB2 lost, costed more than 200 million$ in confirmed losses alone and who knows how many were lost, but never substituted with photo or video evidence.

LOSTARMOUR | Военно-аналитический портал |

lostarmour.info

Meanwhile, 38 Pantsir-S1 went to Algeria for $500 million, which gives a price of ~$13,1 million per unit.

"Панцири" едут в Африку

Россия поставит Алжиру около 40 зенитных комплексов "Панцирь-С1" на полмиллиарда долларов. Интерес к российскому комплексу проявляют и другие страны

www.interfax.ru

Inefficient?

Context. None of the systems listed were actually operated by Russia, so it seems "bane of Russia" might be a bit premature petty nationalism and wishful thinking.

There's a long list of Russian Air Defence systems being knocked out by a cheap drone like TB2, I do believe it definitely caused a jolted nerve.

Most of the list is made from 50 years old systems and are actually Soviet produced. And it is not only the matter of using obsolete equipment, but a matter of being combat ready and actually functional as well. OSA, for instance, entered production in 1970, which means at least part of on board eqipment is running on vacuum-tube computers.
Most of modern systems were destroyed while they were, quite obviously, not in use. which is suppported by the links you've provided. I don't doubt TB2 ability of attacking targets, which are incapable of shooting back at the moment, or similar ability of every other armed drone, aircraft, helicopter, tank, IFV or a militiaman with an RPG.
Last, but not least, I like the way your source puts it. "Destroyed by TB2...and loitering ammunition/ground launched guided ammunition". That is adressing my initial point of sticking "destroyed by TB2" logo on everything for propaganda purposes rather nicely.

 

[red admiral]

It's being developed specifically for aircraft carrier-based operations.

But why didn't they just marinise Akinci then?

 

[alberchico]

I wouldn't call it innefficient, it is a an effective cheap drone like many others that just got lucky with a very permissive engagement climate vs mostly ancient and outmatched foes.

That list is 90% ancient Soviet AD. The only actually active modern AD the drone destroyed was a few Pantsir firing units (not even batteries mind you). Used by irregular militaries or the Syrians, which have a poor record against anything modern, Bayraktar or not Bayraktar.

I mean counting a Tor-M2 that the Armenians parked in a shed before it was bombed by an Israeli munition as a success of Bayraktar? What reco drone wouldn't do the same? That whole conflict was one ridiculously outmatched/outspent side being pounded after half their AD was destroyed by surprise attack or swarmed by modified drone An-2s.


I don't see any actual evidence of "jolting" within Russia, just projection on the part of analysts (or outright propaganda articles like that absolutely ridiculous Oryx article. From that article you would think a full modern force of Tor/Pantsir/S-400 backed up by full EW equipment was crushed by a couple drones lol).

I have to agree. If God forbid a full scale war breaks out with Russia, whatever drones Ukraine has would be put out of action fairly quickly. There is no way they would be permitted to loiter over the battlefield and take pot shots at advancing Russian forces. Also, the experience and training of the personnel who operate these sophisticated missile systems has to be taken into account when judging combat performance.

 

[Trident]

That Armenian TOR-M2 if you had watched the video, was in active search mode with it's search radar rotating all the while being targeted by TB2, what munition or method used to destroy it is irrelevant when an AD system fails to even shoot down or detect the drone that it's being watched by.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OZDM8dd7w0

With all due respect, you should maybe take your own advice and watch the video yourself, rather than apparently relying on third party descriptions of its content.

1) The SAM was clearly operating initially, but that doesn't change the fact that it was only destroyed when it had already packed up and gone home, obviously out of ammunition. Even then, the first hit was by loitering munition, the TB2 merely made the rubble bounce. The same is true of many if not most of the Pantsir kills - a lot of those were being carted about the countryside on semi-trailers at the time. If the AD system was not even functioning during the "engagement", its capabilities or lack thereof cannot have made a blind bit of difference to the outcome - it might as well have been a garden shed. Trivial really.

2) While the Tor was active, the TB2 did not in fact seem to be targeting it, rather than merely filming the action from afar. The target designator was not locked to the SAM and the slant range is clearly MUCH longer than during the subsequent footage of its destruction. Same (even more so, if anything - the distance was greater still) with the S-300 supposedly "killed by TB2", BTW.

3) It follows that "not shooting at TB2" =/= "not seeing TB2" at all. Most likely the UAV was standing off outside the Tor's range at the beginning, so why WOULD the SAM even attempt to shoot at it? The corollary BTW is that Tor was at that point doing its job perfectly fine - it was protecting itself and a sizeable footprint around it from attack by the TB2.

All in all, the difference between the footage of the Tor destruction and the sundry Osa-AKMs is extremely conspicuous. Osas could be picked off by the dozen as targets of opportunity, while a single Tor-M2 required a concerted operation which tied up many valuable assets for a considerable time, and then only succeeded by running it out of missiles. TR1 was right on the money in saying what he did regarding the largely outdated nature of the Armenian defences - imagine what things would have looked like had all those Osa-AKMs been Tor-M2s instead!

"Killed by TB2"? Come on - by the time that MAM-L struck, the Tor was already scattered about in flaming pieces. It's almost as though the only reason why a TB2 was involved in the effort at all was to be able to claim rather defiantly that "look, it CAN kill Tor-M2". Seems to have worked, too, but that says more about the critical faculties (or lack thereof) of the audience than anything else.

 

[shin_getter]

2) While the Tor was active, the TB2 did not in fact seem to be targeting it, rather than merely filming the action from afar. The target designator was not locked to the SAM and the slant range is clearly MUCH longer than during the subsequent footage of its destruction. Same (even more so, if anything - the distance was greater still) with the S-300 supposedly "killed by TB2", BTW.

3) It follows that "not shooting at TB2" =/= "not seeing TB2" at all. Most likely the UAV was standing off outside the Tor's range at the beginning, so why WOULD the SAM even attempt to shoot at it? The corollary BTW is that Tor was at that point doing its job perfectly fine - it was protecting itself and a sizeable footprint around it from attack by the TB2.

The TB2 is first and foremost a ISR drone with a tiny munition payload and thus no capability for deploying high performance stand off munitions. The ability of such a drone to detect and track air defenses is what one should ask for a drone of this category, and it worked in this case, without suffering too much attrition. Most of is reflective of dramatic improvement in sensors over the past decades that obsoletes old system concepts.

The ability of air power to mass in place and time of the attacker's choosing means that in fights over larger territories, it is uneconomical to have air defenses capable of straight up outfighting a peer (or beyond) power air force everywhere, especially given that electronics don't get that much cheaper if you put on a truck as opposed to an plane. Stealth, hit and run skirmishing and ambushes poking at the edge of the air campaign is the means of contesting the air when ground forces is outmatched, which should be most of the front. A SAM battery that stands and fights can either be avoided or attacked via sheer force concentration. A SAM battery that sneaks around and disappears before an strike package can be organized to counter it is a difficult opponent, and drones help here.

The contrast between the gulf war and kosovo shows how much of a force multiplier stealth is to air defenses (just as it is in air offenses). The development of MALE drones was hastened by the latter experience, as persistent sensors makes stealthy movement difficult.
-------------

The Tor was not successful in its mission. The mission isn't sit there to be blown up after shooting up low cost drones, that is very poor return on investment. The proper mission would be to hide and move to ambush much more scarce SU-25s carrying bunker busters that was systematically neutralizing front line defensive positions and make such attempts unsustainable.

 

[TMA1]

I wouldn't call it innefficient, it is a an effective cheap drone like many others that just got lucky with a very permissive engagement climate vs mostly ancient and outmatched foes.

That list is 90% ancient Soviet AD. The only actually active modern AD the drone destroyed was a few Pantsir firing units (not even batteries mind you). Used by irregular militaries or the Syrians, which have a poor record against anything modern, Bayraktar or not Bayraktar.

I mean counting a Tor-M2 that the Armenians parked in a shed before it was bombed by an Israeli munition as a success of Bayraktar? What reco drone wouldn't do the same? That whole conflict was one ridiculously outmatched/outspent side being pounded after half their AD was destroyed by surprise attack or swarmed by modified drone An-2s.


I don't see any actual evidence of "jolting" within Russia, just projection on the part of analysts (or outright propaganda articles like that absolutely ridiculous Oryx article. From that article you would think a full modern force of Tor/Pantsir/S-400 backed up by full EW equipment was crushed by a couple drones lol).

That Armenian TOR-M2 if you had watched the video, was in active search mode with it's search radar rotating all the while being targeted by TB2, what munition or method used to destroy it is irrelevant when an AD system fails to even shoot down or detect the drone that it's being watched by.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OZDM8dd7w0


The fact that Russia had to reassure it's customer base that it's newer generation of Pantsir and Tor would be more effective against drones is clarity in itself - there's a deficiency that Russia is aware of, whether those deficiencies have been fixed - well we shall see, there's a reason why Russia has downed TB2s. And there's a reason why Turkey is developing TB3 - the cat and mouse game is never ending.

Did you watch that video???

 

[Trident]

A SAM battery that stands and fights can either be avoided or attacked via sheer force concentration. A SAM battery that sneaks around and disappears before an strike package can be organized to counter it is a difficult opponent, and drones help here.

The contrast between the gulf war and kosovo shows how much of a force multiplier stealth is to air defenses (just as it is in air offenses). The development of MALE drones was hastened by the latter experience, as persistent sensors makes stealthy movement difficult.

True, except in the face of a properly designed IADS which is dense enough to provide redundancies (i.e. coverage overlapping in both time & space, so one SAM going into hiding doesn't leave major gaps), MALE UAVs do not survive. There is of course a huge cost to providing such a network, but it is a crucial difference between something like Turkey v. Haftar/Wagner or Azerbaijan v. Armenia and Russia v. Ukraine or Russia v. NATO. It's one reason why what works at the lower end of the intensity scale doesn't read across to conflicts between major powers.

Then there's the fact that, totally unlike Serbia and Armenia, Russia would not just wait for the UAVs to appear in the skies. Where ever possible it would seek to destroy them on the ground with ballistic and cruise missiles, along with other offensive air power assets like stealth aircraft. Last but not least, equally unlike Serbia and Armenia, it would be flying CAPs with manned fighters (which by now have accumulated a long and impressive record of finding and shooting down UAVs of all sizes).

Let's just say the Russians will be DELIGHTED if the likes of Poland and Ukraine delude themselves into believing a bunch of TB2s will amount to even as much as a speed bump in a full-scale war.

The Tor was not successful in its mission. The mission isn't sit there to be blown up after shooting up low cost drones, that is very poor return on investment. The proper mission would be to hide and move to ambush much more scarce SU-25s carrying bunker busters that was systematically neutralizing front line defensive positions and make such attempts unsustainable.

For what it could do, it was successful - you can't hold against it the fact that Armenia failed to stock up sufficiently on modern, layered and integrated AD to provide overlapping (spatial and temporal) coverage. That's a failure on the part of procurement policy, planning and ultimately diplomacy to prevent armed conflict by securing a peaceful resolution, if you just can't find the money. The Tor also did tie up at least one of those valuable Su-25s for the third hit, and that aircraft may earlier have been part of the baiting operation to run it out of missiles as well. It is obvious that Tors are much more effective than Osas, and increasing their number even short of a 1:1 replacement would have made the Azerbaijani's job A LOT costlier, at the very least.

 

[Combat-Master]

Chief of the Joint Staff AF B&H Lieutenant General Senad Mašović (Bosnia and Herzegovina) paid a visit to Özdemir Bayraktar National UAV R&D and Production Campus.

 

[Combat-Master]

Ethiopian government is making good progress against rebels.

EXCLUSIVE U.S. concerned over Turkey's drone sales to conflict-hit Ethiopia

U.S. authorities have taken issue with Turkey over its sales of armed drones to Ethiopia, where two sources familiar with the matter said there was mounting evidence the government had used the weapons against rebel fighters.

www.reuters.com

 

[Combat-Master]

Turkish Aerospace Industries ANKA test launching Simsek Loitering munition

 

[TomcatViP]

Ethiopian government is making good progress against rebels.

EXCLUSIVE U.S. concerned over Turkey's drone sales to conflict-hit Ethiopia

U.S. authorities have taken issue with Turkey over its sales of armed drones to Ethiopia, where two sources familiar with the matter said there was mounting evidence the government had used the weapons against rebel fighters.

www.reuters.com

Tigrayan rebel forces said on Monday they were withdrawing from some northern regions after government advances and, in a letter to the UN, called for a no-fly zone for drones and other hostile aircraft over Tigray.

This is a very interesting development and I see here a potential reshaping of private military sales.
First, the old Soviet stuff that had ruled battlefield across the world, ravaging many landscape and cities is de-facto now outdated (see how Russian Tanks in Ukraine are now encaged with a bamboo like structure).
Secondly, it wouldn't be long for the private industry to realize that providing air interdiction to counter drones in many places wouldn't be covered by any arm selling restriction (just register the activity as one recovering metal...).

 

[Combat-Master]

Ethiopian government is making good progress against rebels.

EXCLUSIVE U.S. concerned over Turkey's drone sales to conflict-hit Ethiopia

U.S. authorities have taken issue with Turkey over its sales of armed drones to Ethiopia, where two sources familiar with the matter said there was mounting evidence the government had used the weapons against rebel fighters.

www.reuters.com

Tigrayan rebel forces said on Monday they were withdrawing from some northern regions after government advances and, in a letter to the UN, called for a no-fly zone for drones and other hostile aircraft over Tigray.

This is a very interesting development and I see here a potential reshaping of private military sales.
First, the old Soviet stuff that had ruled battlefield across the world, ravaging many landscape and cities is de-facto now outdated (see how Russian Tanks in Ukraine are now encaged with a bamboo like structure).
Secondly, it wouldn't be long for the private industry to realize that providing air interdiction to counter drones in many places wouldn't be covered by any arm selling restriction (just register the activity as one recovering metal...).

In Libya, LNA was gifted a few Panstirs and some Su-35 in deterrence to GNA TB2 drones, its already happening.

 

[shin_getter]

A SAM battery that stands and fights can either be avoided or attacked via sheer force concentration. A SAM battery that sneaks around and disappears before an strike package can be organized to counter it is a difficult opponent, and drones help here.

The contrast between the gulf war and kosovo shows how much of a force multiplier stealth is to air defenses (just as it is in air offenses). The development of MALE drones was hastened by the latter experience, as persistent sensors makes stealthy movement difficult.

True, except in the face of a properly designed IADS which is dense enough to provide redundancies (i.e. coverage overlapping in both time & space, so one SAM going into hiding doesn't leave major gaps), MALE UAVs do not survive. There is of course a huge cost to providing such a network.... That's a failure on the part of procurement policy, planning and ultimately diplomacy to prevent armed conflict by securing a peaceful resolution, if you just can't find the money.

Superior economic strength with sufficient motivation generally translate to victory on the battlefield in the post-industrial battlefield.

What technology does is improve cost efficiency for adapters than those without. Drones imposes high AD costs that was not needed against previous generation CAS aircraft (Su-25/A-10 era). Larger air defense budget needed to defeat cheaper aircraft.

The concept behind Soviet IADS concepts is likely quite bad against drones as it involves expensive, large, ESM detectable, E-war vulnerable TELAR vehicles that is far too expensive to shoot at some scaneagle, skystriker or harops. Some people are quoting million dollar price tag for a harop, but that battery with launcher and control system, the marginal cost of each munition is probably on the order ~$150k (plus minus a factor of 2) and can simply be fielded in swarms big enough to induce ammo exhaustion to kill ~$10mil and up AD vehicles. It is also this class of weapon that did the heavy lifting in SEAD in the Azerbaijani case, TB-2 was mostly battlefield management and in lower cost ground strikes.

I believe the Iranians have some of the better ideas against drone spam. The "358" turbojet "loitering" IR SAM that is probably manpackable is a better weapon against larger drones, as it enables high attitude engagement with no easy to identify TEL, Radar, or narrow launch area to search. Imagine "out of a window", Non-LOS launch off networked pure passive EOIR detection, that'd give grief to SEAD. Such AD system is not suited against fast jets, but by defeating ISR loitering aircraft and helicopters it pushes air power back to a raiding force as opposed to oppressive persistent intervention from the sky, and opens up expensive fast jets to ambushes. Well, this would hold until next gen. air launch/air recovery/in-flight refueling/perching ground-air air to ground complexes gets developed.

When the "drones that launch drones that launch drones" paradigm happens, SAMs will probably involve into ZTOL interceptor in a tube....by the old trading persistence for short term air combat capability. This would totally happen unless DEW paradigm happens instead.

 

[Combat-Master]

Russians seems to be anxious about the Bayraktar TB-2 issue in the Ukrainian front.

 

[Trident]

I believe the Iranians have some of the better ideas against drone spam. The "358" turbojet "loitering" IR SAM that is probably manpackable is a better weapon against larger drones, as it enables high attitude engagement with no easy to identify TEL, Radar, or narrow launch area to search. Imagine "out of a window", Non-LOS launch off networked pure passive EOIR detection, that'd give grief to SEAD.

Probably a more effective and attainable solution for irregulars than a dense, layered IADS and an air force, no doubt. But again, for major powers (and Russia especially, with its world-leading IADS) things work differently - they have both already. For countries in between (such as Azerbaijan or Armenia) I think Bayraktar itself actually has the right idea - HALE UAVs with an onboard A/A-radar and capable of firing standard BVR AAMs. Again not very useful against a proper manned fighter (though more dangerous), but a lot more capable than the loitering SAM, a loitering airborne SAM site.

More expensive too, but that is ok - countries of this size have the required financial resources, and a manned fighter force would be more costly still. Armenia has all of 4 Su-30s - with such a tiny fleet a persistent HALE UAV BVR threat could present real problems, because with continuous coverage the Flankers are vulnerable on the ground and during take-off/landing. Think Me 262 - exceedingly dangerous once in the air, but a sitting duck on the ground and near the airfield, if the enemy can assert air superiority most of the time.

Play to your strengths, not the enemy's - Azerbaijan did that well. They diligently analysed the Armenian defences, accurately identified the weaknesses and equipped their own forces to exploit them. Having the initiative as the aggressor helped, as well - another aspect, incidentally, where a Russia-Ukraine conflict would differ significantly.

When the "drones that launch drones that launch drones" paradigm happens, SAMs will probably involve into ZTOL interceptor in a tube....by the old trading persistence for short term air combat capability. This would totally happen unless DEW paradigm happens instead.

It already has, to an extent. Russia has had to factor things like MALD, TALD and ITALD into their AD concepts for 30+ years. Even Harop isn't that new, Harpy was a dedicated SEAD forerunner that has been around for 20+ years.

Russians seems to be anxious about the Bayraktar TB-2 issue in the Ukrainian front.

Of course they are, which is why their regular forces will deal with it just fine if (god forbid) things escalate to a full-scale conflict. And they'll be capable of dealing with it using their available AD assets.

 

[Trident]

In Libya, LNA was gifted a few Panstirs and some Su-35 in deterrence to GNA TB2 drones, its already happening.

Huh?

 

[Deino]

Ethiopian government is making good progress against rebels.

EXCLUSIVE U.S. concerned over Turkey's drone sales to conflict-hit Ethiopia

U.S. authorities have taken issue with Turkey over its sales of armed drones to Ethiopia, where two sources familiar with the matter said there was mounting evidence the government had used the weapons against rebel fighters.

www.reuters.com

Tigrayan rebel forces said on Monday they were withdrawing from some northern regions after government advances and, in a letter to the UN, called for a no-fly zone for drones and other hostile aircraft over Tigray.

This is a very interesting development and I see here a potential reshaping of private military sales.
First, the old Soviet stuff that had ruled battlefield across the world, ravaging many landscape and cities is de-facto now outdated (see how Russian Tanks in Ukraine are now encaged with a bamboo like structure).
Secondly, it wouldn't be long for the private industry to realize that providing air interdiction to counter drones in many places wouldn't be covered by any arm selling restriction (just register the activity as one recovering metal...).

In Libya, LNA was gifted a few Panstirs and some Su-35 in deterrence to GNA TB2 drones, its already happening.

Could it be that this claim ruins all your credibility?? Since when does the LNA operates Su-35? Care to explain?

 

[Combat-Master]

Ethiopian government is making good progress against rebels.

EXCLUSIVE U.S. concerned over Turkey's drone sales to conflict-hit Ethiopia

U.S. authorities have taken issue with Turkey over its sales of armed drones to Ethiopia, where two sources familiar with the matter said there was mounting evidence the government had used the weapons against rebel fighters.

www.reuters.com

Tigrayan rebel forces said on Monday they were withdrawing from some northern regions after government advances and, in a letter to the UN, called for a no-fly zone for drones and other hostile aircraft over Tigray.

This is a very interesting development and I see here a potential reshaping of private military sales.
First, the old Soviet stuff that had ruled battlefield across the world, ravaging many landscape and cities is de-facto now outdated (see how Russian Tanks in Ukraine are now encaged with a bamboo like structure).
Secondly, it wouldn't be long for the private industry to realize that providing air interdiction to counter drones in many places wouldn't be covered by any arm selling restriction (just register the activity as one recovering metal...).

In Libya, LNA was gifted a few Panstirs and some Su-35 in deterrence to GNA TB2 drones, its already happening.

Could it be that this claim ruins all your credibility?? Since when does the LNA operates Su-35? Care to explain?

On Tuesday, the U.S. military released photos confirming earlier reports that Russia has dispatched eight warplanes to central Libya, apparently in a bid to support the Libyan National Army faction of General Khalifa Haftar — a move which is still denied by Moscow.

Photos Confirm Presence of Russian Warplanes in Libya

On Tuesday, the U. S. military released photos confirming earlier reports that Russia has dispatched eight warplanes to central Libya, apparently in a bid to support the Libyan National Army faction of General Khalifa Haftar.

www.forbes.com

Didn't say LNA operated Su-35, said they were gifted it. Also, don't know why you're having a go at 'credibility' have I struck a nerve ?

 

[Deino]

Ethiopian government is making good progress against rebels.

EXCLUSIVE U.S. concerned over Turkey's drone sales to conflict-hit Ethiopia

U.S. authorities have taken issue with Turkey over its sales of armed drones to Ethiopia, where two sources familiar with the matter said there was mounting evidence the government had used the weapons against rebel fighters.

www.reuters.com

Tigrayan rebel forces said on Monday they were withdrawing from some northern regions after government advances and, in a letter to the UN, called for a no-fly zone for drones and other hostile aircraft over Tigray.

This is a very interesting development and I see here a potential reshaping of private military sales.
First, the old Soviet stuff that had ruled battlefield across the world, ravaging many landscape and cities is de-facto now outdated (see how Russian Tanks in Ukraine are now encaged with a bamboo like structure).
Secondly, it wouldn't be long for the private industry to realize that providing air interdiction to counter drones in many places wouldn't be covered by any arm selling restriction (just register the activity as one recovering metal...).

In Libya, LNA was gifted a few Panstirs and some Su-35 in deterrence to GNA TB2 drones, its already happening.

Could it be that this claim ruins all your credibility?? Since when does the LNA operates Su-35? Care to explain?

On Tuesday, the U.S. military released photos confirming earlier reports that Russia has dispatched eight warplanes to central Libya, apparently in a bid to support the Libyan National Army faction of General Khalifa Haftar — a move which is still denied by Moscow.

Photos Confirm Presence of Russian Warplanes in Libya

On Tuesday, the U. S. military released photos confirming earlier reports that Russia has dispatched eight warplanes to central Libya, apparently in a bid to support the Libyan National Army faction of General Khalifa Haftar.

www.forbes.com

Didn't say LNA operated Su-35, said they were gifted it. Also, don't know why you're having a go at 'credibility' have I struck a nerve ?

Come on, you said they were gifted as such they are in possession of the LNA, while the report above claimed, Russia dispatched them, which is something completely different.

But again, you are hyping things that are in fact not, like your overhyped term “Russia‘s bane!“

Anyway … happy holidays.

 

[Ahriman]

Didn't say LNA operated Su-35, said they were gifted it. Also, don't know why you're having a go at 'credibility' have I struck a nerve ?

Come again?

Russian MiG-29 phtographed at Al-Jufra airbase in western Libya on May 20

The photos show Su-24 swing-wing bombers as well as older MiG-29S Project 9.13 short-range tactical fighters (NATO codename Fulcrum-C).

You really should start reading and watching your sources.

 

[Combat-Master]

Didn't say LNA operated Su-35, said they were gifted it. Also, don't know why you're having a go at 'credibility' have I struck a nerve ?

Come again?

Russian MiG-29 phtographed at Al-Jufra airbase in western Libya on May 20

The photos show Su-24 swing-wing bombers as well as older MiG-29S Project 9.13 short-range tactical fighters (NATO codename Fulcrum-C).

You really should start reading and watching your sources.

So Russia delivered Su-24 and MIG-29s, Su-35 were escorting the gifts. Why did Russia gift such planes? Precisely when TB2 started to ravage LNA lines and Russia pulled back oh sorry I mean Wagner Group.

Does it change the narrative?

 

[Deino]

Didn't say LNA operated Su-35, said they were gifted it. Also, don't know why you're having a go at 'credibility' have I struck a nerve ?

Come again?

Russian MiG-29 phtographed at Al-Jufra airbase in western Libya on May 20

The photos show Su-24 swing-wing bombers as well as older MiG-29S Project 9.13 short-range tactical fighters (NATO codename Fulcrum-C).

You really should start reading and watching your sources.

So Russia delivered Su-24 and MIG-29s, Su-35 were escorting the gifts. Why did Russia gift such planes? Precisely when TB2 started to ravage LNA lines and Russia pulled back oh sorry I mean Wagner Group.

Does it change the narrative?

Yes it does ... since it is something very much different if I allow my neighbour to park his Porsche in front of my house and even let me sit in it or if I possess one!

Is this so difficult to understand? You clearly said:



and as it seems everyone but you read this as if the LNA now owns and operate them. So either you should at least admit that it was not a stupid error to misread it, maybe next time you should better explain what you mean or - and that's indeed my impression - it fits to the narrative to over-hype anything that could make Turkish systems look the best.

Come on, no-one wants to negate that Turkish UAV/UCAVs have reached an impressive maturity, they are a great export success and valuable military asset, but I'm quite sure none here rates them as "Russia's bane" or like some idiots do in the PDF "the best UAV of all UAVs available"! That's ridicolous.

 

[Ahriman]

Does it change the narrative?

Apart from being factually incorrect, yes, it does. There is quite a gap in capabilities between Su-35S and legacy MiG-29, not to mention ground pounder Su-24, which kinda obviously is not related to meme wunderwaffe in any direct way.

Why did Russia gift such planes?

You seem to be keen on presenting your assumptions as facts. Sold is far more likely, IMO.

Precisely when TB2 started to ravage LNA lines and Russia pulled back oh sorry I mean Wagner Group.

Apparently it was decided that LNA forces were severely lacking in terms of air power. Not to mention this additional air power serving as containment tool for any Turkish deployment. Case in point being destruction of Turkish MIM-23 HAWK battery at Al-Watiyah air base in July(?).

 

[aonestudio]

Ukraine launches production of Bayraktar drones - Yermak

The production of armed drones Bayraktar TB2 has been launched in Ukraine, according to Andriy Yermak, head of the President's Office. â Ukrinform.

www.ukrinform.net

 

[TomcatViP]

Regarding the 1.5B$ of military deals with France, it refers to the sale of Airbus helicopters, including 21 used H225 (Super Puma) signed in 2018 at a bargain price. Sadly, Only 10 have been delivered so far.

Five H225 helicopters were upgraded for Ukrainian MoI in Romania

Five H225 helicopters were upgraded for Ukrainian MoI in Romania.

mil.in.ua

 

[Deino]

Regarding the 1.5B$ of military deals with France, it refers to the sale of Airbus helicopters, including 21 used H225 (Super Puma) signed in 2018 at a bargain price. Sadly, Only 10 have been delivered so far.

Five H225 helicopters were upgraded for Ukrainian MoI in Romania

Five H225 helicopters were upgraded for Ukrainian MoI in Romania.

mil.in.ua

Wrong thread?

 

[TomcatViP]

No. This complements the report just above.

 

[Combat-Master]

Alexey Arestovych, one of the consultants of Ukrainian President Volodymr Zelensky: We need to improve about UAV-UCAV fields instead of buying aircrafts as Rafael, Gripen, F-15 and F-16. Our next step will be producing a new jet-UCAV under the partnership of Turkey and #Ukraine.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1475410083681079298

View: https://twitter.com/clashreport/status/1475410083681079298?s=20


I believe he may be referring to BaykarTech UCAS.

 

[Combat-Master]

Updated rendering of BAYKARTECH UCAS, starting to look like a mini unmanned J-20

 

[red admiral]

Updated rendering of BAYKARTECH UCAS, starting to look like a mini unmanned J-20
View attachment 670750

But it does M0.6

How does that make sense? It would be better to have a straight wing

 

[Combat-Master]

Updated rendering of BAYKARTECH UCAS, starting to look like a mini unmanned J-20
View attachment 670750

But it does M0.6

How does that make sense? It would be better to have a straight wing

That's the cruise speed.

Two variants are being developed in parallel;

A-Variant Subsonic with AI-25TLT engine

B-Variant Supersonic with AI-322F engine

Baykar Puts In An Order For AI322F and AI25TLT Jet Engines From Ukraine For MIUS

On Thursday, November 11th, Baykar Defense and Ivchenko-Progress signed a deal to supply AI-322F and AI-25TLT jet engines for Baykar's MIUS project.

www.overtdefense.com

 

[Combat-Master]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1477318800592809990

View: https://twitter.com/Mukhtarr_MD/status/1477318800592809990?s=20

 

[Combat-Master]

TB2 drone with integrated satellite communication and control system

 

[Combat-Master]

JEMSAH - Turkey's supersonic mock target drone, expected usage during SEAD/DEAD operations with R/F jammer and other aircraft emulation payloads.

 

[TomcatViP]

It's a really small platform with a small diameter fuselage to put an RF jammer!

How would you say Wait & see in Turkish?

 

[Deino]

TB2 drone with integrated satellite communication and control system
View attachment 670892

Interesting addition ...

 

[aonestudio]

A new batch of Turkey` Bayraktar UCAVs is preparing for Ukraine

Turkey is preparing a new batch of "Bayraktar" (Bayraktar TB2) UCAVs for Ukraine

mil.in.ua