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Author Topic: Forthcoming: Italian Secret Projects  (Read 65417 times)

Offline Skybolt

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Re: Forthcoming: Italian Secret Projects
« Reply #30 on: December 04, 2010, 02:00:17 pm »
It is worth waiting, I assure you all...  ;)

Offline Circumspect

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Re: Forthcoming: Italian Secret Projects
« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2010, 07:57:15 pm »
Hikoki1946 and Skybolt:  (Granted, it will be worth waiting for.)  But (as an engineer once myself), no device make sense, except as postured against issued 'specifications' beforehand, whether they were sensible or not! Of course, your reader (any reader) should have already gleaned the 'specs' (from your text) before confronting the subject-aircraft.  But I also recommend: 'grouping' all your 'candidate' aircraft-ideas, together (like downward branches-of-a-tree) if they issued from the same 'common' specifications that sanctioned them, for comparison's sake!  (I already know all about the P.108. But what did its 'competitors' look like?  What was the 'common' specs to all of them?)  In other words: all 'candidate' aircraft - issuing from the same Ministry Request For Proposal - should be  the subject of a single chapter?  So, instead of (alphabetically) by parent-company name: define each chapter around the competitive specification and the 'candidates' that issued forth, together.





Offline Hikoki1946

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Re: Forthcoming: Italian Secret Projects
« Reply #32 on: December 10, 2010, 08:17:34 am »
Circumspect:

While I certainly see your logic in such a book layout, for our particular title, I don't think it would work well. We are pulling some of the more fantastic and interesting Italian designs across a span of 28 years, both military and civilian, so, with picking and choosing various specific aircraft from the spectrum of designs available, it wouldn't fit well with the formula you laid out. Depending on the text, other aircraft are mentioned or discussed to give context and basis. For example, with the Reggiane RE 2005 SF (or the Re.2005R source depending), it was prudent to discuss the Re.2005 itself and what led to its design to give the reader an understanding of the aircraft, why it was considered to use the Re.2005 and install a thermojet in it, and also enlighten the reader on the conflicts for resources the various aircraft producers had.

Your design would work well if the book was a comprehensive treatment of all experimental aircraft but the size restrictions of our book (both page count and word count) required us to pick and choose and provide in-depth detail for the aircraft we chose. Nevertheless, it won't fail to disappoint!

Regards,

Ed



Hikoki1946 and Skybolt:  (Granted, it will be worth waiting for.)  But (as an engineer once myself), no device make sense, except as postured against issued 'specifications' beforehand, whether they were sensible or not! Of course, your reader (any reader) should have already gleaned the 'specs' (from your text) before confronting the subject-aircraft.  But I also recommend: 'grouping' all your 'candidate' aircraft-ideas, together (like downward branches-of-a-tree) if they issued from the same 'common' specifications that sanctioned them, for comparison's sake!  (I already know all about the P.108. But what did its 'competitors' look like?  What was the 'common' specs to all of them?)  In other words: all 'candidate' aircraft - issuing from the same Ministry Request For Proposal - should be  the subject of a single chapter?  So, instead of (alphabetically) by parent-company name: define each chapter around the competitive specification and the 'candidates' that issued forth, together.






Offline Skybolt

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Re: Forthcoming: Italian Secret Projects
« Reply #33 on: December 10, 2010, 09:33:12 am »
There will probably be a short introduction (or Appendix, like in other SP volumes) on competitions giving rise to some of the designs. Problem is that not all the competitions' specs have survived (actualy, only a few), and moreover some designs seem to spring out of nowhere. This has led some historians to speculate on unknown requirements etc, but this often led to lump together projects distant in time. Example: there isn't a single sherd of documents saying that the twin fuselage fighter projects of late war were drawn to some official requirement, as has often been stated. On the contrary, there is proof (actually, hint) of the opposite. The MC.205 Bifusoliera was for example sketched on point request of General Ilari directly to Macchi, and went nowhere in few days. The CA.380 Corsaro was drawn probably on request, but for a different one than others twin fuselage (Italian Mosquito, I dubbed it "Zanzara"). Maybe G.58 and SM.92 are related, but almost surely Re.2005 Bifusoliera isn't related. And SM.92 isn't a derivative of the SM.91, the design of SM.92 was frozen BEFORE the SM.91 as flown was. Actually, when SM.92 was named, the designation SM.91 was still used internaly at Savoia for a dive bomber project. Reconstructing the history of ISP from late 1941 to 1944 is really a matter of sheer chronological reconstruction.

Offline foiling

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Re: Forthcoming: Italian Secret Projects
« Reply #34 on: December 11, 2010, 05:48:55 am »
Looking forward to it; keep inspired by the responses you're getting.

Offline Circumspect

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Re: Forthcoming: Italian Secret Projects
« Reply #35 on: December 12, 2010, 01:35:20 pm »
Depending on how much page-space you have, some intro-chapters and appendices might be in order: aero engines/powerplants (both available and anticipated).  Ditto any key biographies, brief descriptions industrial structuring, esp. R & D capabilities et al.  No aircraft can ever be better than its engine. Furthermore, wind-tunnels and test-sites require prolonged sustenance to investment, equipage, personnel and pedagogy.  (As for powerplants, my impressions are of an indigenous aero engine industry that was, unfortunately, 'driven' by airframe requirements (rather than the other way around in America!)  As for the Volta 'high-speed' conference (1935), I have yet to hear of 'reactions' to this conference from indigenous Italian engineers (except maybe Campini), and from any curious gov/industrial officials. 

Offline Hikoki1946

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Re: Forthcoming: Italian Secret Projects
« Reply #36 on: January 27, 2011, 12:57:17 pm »
Just a short update. The manuscript for the book goes into the publisher this coming March. Publication is due sometime in 2012.

Just to note, despite the news some of you may have heard about Ian Allan downsizing and streamlining their book titles, they have informed me that this book will proceed to publication.

Offline Hikoki1946

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Re: Forthcoming: Italian Secret Projects
« Reply #37 on: January 27, 2011, 01:08:38 pm »
I seem to have been remiss in listing out the aircraft which are slated to appear in the book. They include:

Adamoli-Cattani fighter
Ambrosini SS.3
Ambrosini SS.4
Bellomo M.B.902
Beltrame Colibri
Bestetti Nardi BN.1
Bestetti BN.2
Bestetti BN.3
Bestetti BN.4
Breda Zappata BZ.308
Bugatti Model 100
Campini thermojet fighter and bomber
Caproni Campini N.1/N.2
Caproni Ca 60 Noviplano
Caproni Ca.183bis
Caproni Ca.380
Caproni-Vizzola F.6Z
Ciro Lamanna "Tutt Ala CL" or BWB bomber
D'Ascanio D'AT3 helicopter
Giovanni Pegna flying wing seaplane
IMAM Ro.67
Jona J.6
Jona J.10
Lombardi (SAIMAN) LB.2
Macchi C.205 Bifusoliera
Magni RR
Piaggio P.7
Piaggio P.23R
Piaggio P.50
Piaggio P.119
Piaggio P.127
Piaggio P.130
Piana-Canova all-wing planes
Reggiane Re.2005R and Re.2005 twin-fuselage designs
Reggaiane "Re.2007"
S.A.I. Ambrosini  A.R.
SAI S-404
Savoia-Marchetti S.65
Savoia-Marchetti SM.91
Savoia-Marchetti SM.92
Stipa-Caproni
Caproni Ca.161

Skybolt, co-author of the book, has a few more and of course, contents are subject to change.

Offline AeroFranz

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Re: Forthcoming: Italian Secret Projects
« Reply #38 on: January 27, 2011, 03:19:22 pm »
(Drool)  ;)
All modern aircraft have four dimensions: span, length, height and politics.   TSR.2 got the first three right - Sir Sydney Camm

Offline airman

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Re: Forthcoming: Italian Secret Projects
« Reply #39 on: January 27, 2011, 03:44:05 pm »
mmhhmmm ,and the others ?  ??? ???
well, i hope will be only the first volume !  :)
writers , bloggers , content-curators ,  music composer and passionate of militaria and uchronia

Offline Circumspect

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Re: Forthcoming: Italian Secret Projects
« Reply #40 on: January 27, 2011, 09:20:01 pm »
WHOA! Great book so far, but here's what's still missing (WRIT-LARGE):

1. Nothing on those Ambrosini 'light-weight' fighter series? How about (at least) some honorable-mention to its finality: 403 "Dardo?"
2. Only one (1) Breda? How 'bout that formidable dive-bomber: B.A.201(?) It flew!  Also, why-not some mention of Zappata's: BZ.301 (long-range bomber), BZ.302 (twin-fighter), especially: BZ.303 (twin night-fighter)?
3. Nothing on C.A.N.T.(C.R.D.A.) projects? How 'bout their (monster) Z.511 seaplane? (it flew!) and that Z.1014 bomber-project?
4. Nothing on Fiat projects? Well, that Br.26 (proposal) was a sure aerodynamic-improvement over any Br.20/20bis. And, why-not a quick look at those 'controprop' ideas (on those 'early' G.55 configurations) to say nothing of that 'monster' Cr.44(!)
5. A whole-lot of (your) Piaggio P.(projects) are missing, especially: P.133 (and that's just too obvious)!
6. Nothing on Savoia-Marchetti projects?(!) You're not serious about leaving-out that (monster) SM.95, are you? (I mean the 'real' SM.95, the one that would have competed w/the Z.511 for a Trans-Atlantic mission.)
7. And, what about that Umbra MB.902(?)
8. BTW, some mention should be made on the '6'-series fighters: Fiat G.56, Reggiane Re.206, right?

(CARRY-ON!)

Online Arjen

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Re: Forthcoming: Italian Secret Projects
« Reply #41 on: January 28, 2011, 02:18:35 am »
Quote
...Bugatti Model 100...
A flying Bugatti. Cool.

Offline Skybolt

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Re: Forthcoming: Italian Secret Projects
« Reply #42 on: January 28, 2011, 03:07:20 am »
Ok, folks, if ALL ISP wouild have been included, our mandated word count would have gone through the roof... Anyway, some addition:
SM-93 will be in:  it flew and it is rather well known, BUT the development phase had some really WEIRD possibilities.... never seen before ANYWHERE, I assure you.
CR-44 is a possibility, and some more info has emerged (on the engine) since my coverage of that in the last issue of Aerofan, but there is absolutely NOTHING on the purpose of that project, its actual submission and so on. Probably it was a multipurpose fighter, but there are no docs on it (still locked in the remote storage of the FIAT archives).
SM-95B (for bomber)... may be included if I'll be able to pare down my word count. Little more infos emerged after my coverage of the type in Aerofan issue 99, notably on type of in-line engines intended for the advanced version: DB-601Es. Anyway, the Alfa 128 version flew and was converted as a transport after the war.
BZ-30X, yes... could be there, derivatives of CANT Z-1018, but you'll be suprised to learn how LITTLE is really known. Breda archives were ruthlessly destroyed in 1950. They even scraped the glass negatives of the photografic archives to gather the little silver still there....
Ditto for Piaggio projects, but the ones that are in will have some surprises, for example a previously unknown configuration of P-119. And the P-127 is a co-protagonist of the cover art....
MB-902 is there (is classed under Bellomo, the name of the designer that was from Guidonia, and Aeronautica Umbra was contracted to build but wasn't enthusiastic to do, angular remote transmission shafts, anyone?), the REAL info on that could fill a column of text... there is the mistery of Alfa 1902, but another column at most (though it would give the opportunity to speak of Alfa 1101 engine).
"6" series, yes, could be, but see first line. They were G-56, Re-2006 and MC-206 AND MC-207.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2011, 03:10:55 am by Skybolt »

Offline Hikoki1946

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Re: Forthcoming: Italian Secret Projects
« Reply #43 on: January 28, 2011, 05:48:08 am »
As Skybolt said, the book has a limited page and word count which demands that we, as authors, be selective in what we include in the debut Italian Secret Projects publication. It simply cannot be all-inclusive and we understand that some may be disappointed that their x-plane(s) of interest was not included.

The selection process followed the formula I used for my Japanese Secret Projects book. Only the most interesting, novel, and in some cases, bizarre, aircraft were chosen. If it looked boring, it probably didn't make it. The main reason for this was to highlight the full gambit of Italian aeronautical thinking and accomplishment and bring it to the reader under one set of covers.

But fear not. If the book is a success, which I know it will be, the possibility of a second volume is very much real. It happened with my Japanese Secret Project book. Support for the title made a second volume a reality (due in 2013).


WHOA! Great book so far, but here's what's still missing (WRIT-LARGE):

1. Nothing on those Ambrosini 'light-weight' fighter series? How about (at least) some honorable-mention to its finality: 403 "Dardo?"
2. Only one (1) Breda? How 'bout that formidable dive-bomber: B.A.201(?) It flew!  Also, why-not some mention of Zappata's: BZ.301 (long-range bomber), BZ.302 (twin-fighter), especially: BZ.303 (twin night-fighter)?
3. Nothing on C.A.N.T.(C.R.D.A.) projects? How 'bout their (monster) Z.511 seaplane? (it flew!) and that Z.1014 bomber-project?
4. Nothing on Fiat projects? Well, that Br.26 (proposal) was a sure aerodynamic-improvement over any Br.20/20bis. And, why-not a quick look at those 'controprop' ideas (on those 'early' G.55 configurations) to say nothing of that 'monster' Cr.44(!)
5. A whole-lot of (your) Piaggio P.(projects) are missing, especially: P.133 (and that's just too obvious)!
6. Nothing on Savoia-Marchetti projects?(!) You're not serious about leaving-out that (monster) SM.95, are you? (I mean the 'real' SM.95, the one that would have competed w/the Z.511 for a Trans-Atlantic mission.)
7. And, what about that Umbra MB.902(?)
8. BTW, some mention should be made on the '6'-series fighters: Fiat G.56, Reggiane Re.206, right?

(CARRY-ON!)


Offline robunos

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Re: Forthcoming: Italian Secret Projects
« Reply #44 on: January 28, 2011, 07:42:50 am »
Quote
A flying Bugatti. Cool.

see here :-

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1100.0/highlight,bugatti.html



cheers,
         Robin.
Where ARE the Daleks when you need them......