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Author Topic: Beyond the Mercure - Avions Marcel Dassault-Bréguet Aviation projects......  (Read 18471 times)

Offline ChuckAnderson

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Hi Everyone!

I just thought that you might like to see a 3-view of the Dassault Mercure.


Chuck
« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 06:18:22 am by Stargazer2006 »

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Re: Dassault « Mercure » airliner
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2006, 10:12:37 am »
Hi Everyone!

I just thought that you might like to see a 3-view of the Dassault Mercure.


Chuck


Hehe, only sold to Air Liberté if IIRC.

Offline dan_inbox

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Re: Dassault « Mercure » airliner
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2007, 09:30:47 pm »
Quote
I just thought that you might like to see a 3-view of the Dassault Mercure.

Hehe, only sold to Air Liberté if IIRC.
All 12 copies of the Mercure produced were sold to Air Inter.

Offline flateric

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Re: Dassault « Mercure » airliner
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2009, 04:44:01 pm »
Ucon and me are looking for old articles and especially any drawings of AMD Mercure. Cutaways, 3-views, passenger seating, landing gear details, side profiles etc.

If you have something to share, please PM me.

BTW, does anyone have this 1972 Interavia article? As forr Flight International - all is checked up already.

As always, bunch of thanks. I will return a favor.
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline Bailey

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Re: Dassault « Mercure » airliner
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2009, 05:34:49 am »
You may have picked this one up from flight global already, if not I hope it helps.

Regards Bailey.
"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored" - Aldous Huxley.

Offline flateric

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Re: Dassault « Mercure » airliner
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2009, 06:14:25 am »
surely I did, but thanks anyway!
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline Caravellarella

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Dear Boys and Girls, here is an article about a developed Avions Marcel Dassault-Bréguet Aviation Mercure 200 "project". It featured a fuselage stretched by 2 frame pitches (over the production Mercure 100), longer wing-tips, uprated engines and higher weights for greater payload range capability......

The article comes from the April 1973 issue of Air Enthusiast International......

Terry (Caravellarella)
« Last Edit: May 09, 2011, 06:42:12 pm by Caravellarella »
Because L'ORÉAL keeps telling me I'm worth it......
I can scarcely contain my indifference......
Maybe it's MAYBELLINE......
Vamp till ready......
RIMMEL; get the London Look......

Offline Caravellarella

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Dear Boys and Girls, here is another article about a later developed Avions Marcel Dassault-Bréguet Aviation Mercure 200 "project". It featured a fuselage stretched by 4 frame pitches (over the production Mercure 100), longer wing-tips and the then new CFM-56 turbofan engine. Note how the new engines' nacelles are integrated into the leading edge of the wing......

The article comes from the February 1976 issue of Air International......

Terry (Caravellarella)
« Last Edit: May 09, 2011, 06:42:34 pm by Caravellarella »
Because L'ORÉAL keeps telling me I'm worth it......
I can scarcely contain my indifference......
Maybe it's MAYBELLINE......
Vamp till ready......
RIMMEL; get the London Look......

Offline Caravellarella

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Dear Boys and Girls, here is yet another article about a later developed Avions Marcel Dassault-Bréguet Aviation Mercure 200 "project". It featured a fuselage now stretched by 12 frame pitches (over the production Mercure 100), longer wing-tips and CFM-56 turbofan engines. It was proposed as a collaborative joint-venture with McDonnell-Douglas as a new generation jet airliner......

The article comes from the August 1976 issue of Air International......

Terry (Caravellarella)
Because L'ORÉAL keeps telling me I'm worth it......
I can scarcely contain my indifference......
Maybe it's MAYBELLINE......
Vamp till ready......
RIMMEL; get the London Look......

Offline toura

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Hi Caravellarella

Offline toura

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and also

Offline alertken

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http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1978/1978%20-%200847.html

The outcomes of all that juggling, 1974-78, were:
- France stopped pouring civil money into Dassault to compete with Sud;
- UK rejoined Airbus Industrie which, slowly, became a real business, not a branch of 3 Nations' welfare systems;
- RR won its second US baseline (535 on 757);
- SNECMA became a civil power powerhouse (CFM56 and enhanced CF6s);
- A310 and A320 proceeded as real tripartite programmes, A320 selling at levels unprecedented in Europe;
- Italy built great chunks of MDC and Boeing craft;
- 737/CFM56, 757 and 767 took most of those market sectors.
Eventually, and near-unprecedented, some of these programmes actually delivered profit to their participants.

Offline Caravellarella

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Re: Dassault « Mercure » airliner
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2011, 03:41:55 am »
Dear Boys and Girls, here is an article in French describing the industrial launch of the Avions Marcel Dassault Mercure short-range jet airliner; at this stage probably still considered a "project" in the absence of any commercial orders......

The article comes from the 15th April 1969 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

Terry (Caravellarella)
Because L'ORÉAL keeps telling me I'm worth it......
I can scarcely contain my indifference......
Maybe it's MAYBELLINE......
Vamp till ready......
RIMMEL; get the London Look......

Offline Caravellarella

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http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1978/1978%20-%200847.html

The outcomes of all that juggling, 1974-78, were:
- France stopped pouring civil money into Dassault to compete with Sud;
- UK rejoined Airbus Industrie which, slowly, became a real business, not a branch of 3 Nations' welfare systems;
- RR won its second US baseline (535 on 757);
- SNECMA became a civil power powerhouse (CFM56 and enhanced CF6s);
- A310 and A320 proceeded as real tripartite programmes, A320 selling at levels unprecedented in Europe;
- Italy built great chunks of MDC and Boeing craft;
- 737/CFM56, 757 and 767 took most of those market sectors.
Eventually, and near-unprecedented, some of these programmes actually delivered profit to their participants.


I think you've missed out some bits of "juggling" Alertken......

Terry (Caravellarella)
Because L'ORÉAL keeps telling me I'm worth it......
I can scarcely contain my indifference......
Maybe it's MAYBELLINE......
Vamp till ready......
RIMMEL; get the London Look......

Offline Caravellarella

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Dear Boys and Girls, here is a short column describing the nature of the proposed collaboration between Avions Marcel Dassault-Bréguet Aviation, McDonnell-Douglas, Aérospatiale and any other potential European partners to produce the Mercure 200 "project". Surprisingly Avions Marcel Dassault-Bréguet Aviation would only have retained 5% of the airframe work but would have remained programme leader......

The French Government had provided 80% (of the 70% Dassault/French share) of the launch costs for the original production Mercure 100; so it not surprising that they would seek to recoup those costs (and the losses incurred up to then) through a major share in production by Aérospatiale......

The column comes from the October 1976 issue of Air International......

Terry (Caravellarella)
« Last Edit: May 10, 2011, 09:06:42 am by Caravellarella »
Because L'ORÉAL keeps telling me I'm worth it......
I can scarcely contain my indifference......
Maybe it's MAYBELLINE......
Vamp till ready......
RIMMEL; get the London Look......

Offline toura

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Re: Dassault « Mercure » airliner
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2011, 06:35:48 am »
another 3 views

Offline toura

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Re: Dassault « Mercure » airliner
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2011, 06:42:51 am »
FIRST FLIGHT

Offline Caravellarella

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Re: Dassault « Mercure » airliner
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2011, 06:46:19 am »
Dear Boys and Girls, here is a short feature in French about the first options taken on the Avions Marcel Dassault Mercure airliner. Air Inter remained the only customer for the Mercure; here the full scale mock-up is decorated in Air Inter livery......

The feature comes from the 1st October 1969 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

Terry (Caravellarella)
Because L'ORÉAL keeps telling me I'm worth it......
I can scarcely contain my indifference......
Maybe it's MAYBELLINE......
Vamp till ready......
RIMMEL; get the London Look......

Offline toura

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Re: Dassault « Mercure » airliner
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2011, 06:51:35 am »
INSIDE THE PLANE

Offline Caravellarella

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Re: Dassault « Mercure » airliner
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2011, 06:54:52 am »
INSIDE THE PLANE

Thank you Toura, I have visited that Mercure stored at Orly. It has a noticeably wider passenger cabin than a Boeing 737/727/757.

Terry (Caravellarella)
Because L'ORÉAL keeps telling me I'm worth it......
I can scarcely contain my indifference......
Maybe it's MAYBELLINE......
Vamp till ready......
RIMMEL; get the London Look......

Offline toura

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Re: Dassault « Mercure » airliner
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2011, 06:59:37 am »
THE F-WTCC with the second tail

Offline toura

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Re: Dassault « Mercure » airliner
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2011, 07:04:10 am »
Another livery

Offline toura

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Re: Dassault « Mercure » airliner
« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2011, 07:06:16 am »
How are you Caraavellarella.

Offline Caravellarella

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Re: Dassault « Mercure » airliner
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2011, 07:19:04 am »
How are you Caraavellarella.

I'm having a Mercure moment, thank you Toura ;D......

Here is a picture with a caption in French of the full-scale mock-up of the Avions Marcel Dassault Mercure being moved past L'Arc de Triomphe on the night of 19th/20th May 1969 en route to Le Bourget (I assume for the 1969 Paris Salon), for you......

The picture comes from the 1st June 1969 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

Terry (Caravellarella)
Because L'ORÉAL keeps telling me I'm worth it......
I can scarcely contain my indifference......
Maybe it's MAYBELLINE......
Vamp till ready......
RIMMEL; get the London Look......

Offline toura

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Re: Dassault « Mercure » airliner
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2011, 07:55:46 am »
Hi Caravellarella
THANK YOU VERY MUCH
This is VERY interesting !

Offline Caravellarella

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Re: Dassault « Mercure » airliner
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2011, 08:25:28 am »
Hi Caravellarella
THANK YOU VERY MUCH
This is VERY interesting !

You're welcome Toura ;D. Here is another article in French about the Avions Marcel Dassault Mercure short-range jet airliner; it features many pictures of the full-scale mock-up (la Maquette-grandeur)......

The article comes from the 15th October 1969 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

Terry (Caravellarella)
Because L'ORÉAL keeps telling me I'm worth it......
I can scarcely contain my indifference......
Maybe it's MAYBELLINE......
Vamp till ready......
RIMMEL; get the London Look......

Offline Caravellarella

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Re: Dassault « Mercure » airliner
« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2011, 03:20:18 am »
Dear Boys and Girls, here is an advertisement in French proclaiming the options taken on the Avions Marcel Dassault Mercure airliner by the French domestic airline Air Inter ......

The advertisement comes from the 1st November 1969 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

Terry (Caravellarella)
Because L'ORÉAL keeps telling me I'm worth it......
I can scarcely contain my indifference......
Maybe it's MAYBELLINE......
Vamp till ready......
RIMMEL; get the London Look......

Offline Caravellarella

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Dear Boys and Girls, here is a short column about proposed collaboration between Avions Marcel Dassault-Bréguet Aviation, McDonnell-Douglas, Aérospatiale and any other potential European partners to produce the Mercure 200 "project". From this point the Mercure 200 was usually called ASMR......

The column comes from the December 1976 issue of Air International......

Terry (Caravellarella)
Because L'ORÉAL keeps telling me I'm worth it......
I can scarcely contain my indifference......
Maybe it's MAYBELLINE......
Vamp till ready......
RIMMEL; get the London Look......

Offline Caravellarella

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Re: Dassault « Mercure » airliner
« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2011, 04:41:33 pm »
Dear Boys and Girls, here is a 3-page advertisement in French for the Avions Marcel Dassault Mercure airliner......

The advertisement comes from the 1st May 1969 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

Terry (Caravellarella)
Because L'ORÉAL keeps telling me I'm worth it......
I can scarcely contain my indifference......
Maybe it's MAYBELLINE......
Vamp till ready......
RIMMEL; get the London Look......

Offline Caravellarella

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Dear Boys and Girls, here are a pair of articles about the proposed collaboration between Avions Marcel Dassault-Bréguet Aviation, McDonnell-Douglas, Aérospatiale and any other potential European partners to produce the Mercure 200 or ASMR "project"; the articles give an indication of the tortuous way ahead for the "project"; most likely promped by the lack of airline customer interest. At this point the "project" to develop the Mercure split into two parallel "projects"......

The first article describes how McDonnell-Douglas chose to develop the Mercure 200-based ASMR into the ASMR-2 with an all-new supercritical wing. No indication is given of any participation by Avions Marcel Dassault-Bréguet Aviation or Aérospatiale in this ASMR-2 "project"; it eventually led (much further down the line) to the later, larger and all-new ATMR "project" for a twin-aisle Boeing 757 competitor......

The second article describes Avions Marcel Dassault-Bréguet Aviation's own plans to develop a slightly revised Mercure 200-1 and shorter Mercure 200-2 "projects"; a sign perhaps of increasingly desperate efforts to salvage something from the disastrous Mercure programme......

The articles come from the August 1977 issue of Air International......

Terry (Caravellarella)
« Last Edit: May 12, 2011, 12:16:19 pm by Caravellarella »
Because L'ORÉAL keeps telling me I'm worth it......
I can scarcely contain my indifference......
Maybe it's MAYBELLINE......
Vamp till ready......
RIMMEL; get the London Look......

Offline Caravellarella

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Dear Boys and Girls, here some pictures of a large cutaway model of the Avions Marcel Dassault-Bréguet Aviation Mercure 200-1 "project". I don't know where the pictures originate (the internet?), but I think the model is displayed at a museum in Bordeaux (Mérignac?)......


Terry (Caravellarella)
Because L'ORÉAL keeps telling me I'm worth it......
I can scarcely contain my indifference......
Maybe it's MAYBELLINE......
Vamp till ready......
RIMMEL; get the London Look......

Offline Caravellarella

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Re: Dassault « Mercure » airliner
« Reply #31 on: May 13, 2011, 04:32:47 am »
Dear Boys and Girls, here is an extensive article about the Avions Marcel Dassault-Bréguet Aviation Mercure 100 jet airliner covering the history of the design, flight-testing of the first prototype and prospects for success in the marketplace. It is interesting to see that the first prototype originally flew with a nil dihedral tail-plane......

The article comes from the April 1972 issue of Air Enthusiast International......

Terry (Caravellarella)
Because L'ORÉAL keeps telling me I'm worth it......
I can scarcely contain my indifference......
Maybe it's MAYBELLINE......
Vamp till ready......
RIMMEL; get the London Look......

Offline Caravellarella

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Dear Boys and Girls, here is a short piece about a proposed Avions Marcel Dassault-Bréguet Aviation Mercure 300 "project" for a new airliner with three rear-mounted CFM-56 engines. This was the final attempt to salvage a new aircraft design from the disastrous Mercure programme; promoted as a alternative back-up to the Airbus Industrie A300B10 200 seat "project" and any future 150 seat new technology twin-jet "project". After this point, I cannot find any further Mercure activity from Avions Marcel Dassault-Bréguet Aviation; probably safe to say that the Mercure died a death at this point......

The McDonnell-Douglas ASMR-2 derivative "project" had not generated any customer interest and was transforming into the all new ATMR-2 "project". qv http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1296.msg125208.html#msg125208 ......

McDonnell-Douglas had already made moves to launch the DC-9-55RS "project" into production as the MD-80 (first customer order received October 1977)......

Aérospatiale had presented their all-new A200 series as the basis for a European collaborative new technology 150 seater. qv http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,7892.msg124657.html#msg124657 ......

The piece comes from the September 1977 issue of Air International......

Terry (Caravellarella)
« Last Edit: May 19, 2011, 01:45:09 pm by Caravellarella »
Because L'ORÉAL keeps telling me I'm worth it......
I can scarcely contain my indifference......
Maybe it's MAYBELLINE......
Vamp till ready......
RIMMEL; get the London Look......

Offline alertken

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(Multiple 1970s' airliners threads: so:) Why did they all settle into today's Airbus and Boeing lines?

I can only be UK-centric: maybe others can do the D/F/N politics better. Key dates/events:
18/10/72:  first flight, A300B1/CF6. Hopeless market penetration/white tails littering Toulouse into 1980.
   1/1/73:  UK in EEC.
  29/4/77:  UK nationalises (BAC+HSAL, as) BAe. Shorts, RR and BA already nationalised. Zero risk-finance in the aero industry.
   7/7/78:  Airbus Industrie GIE launches A310/CF6; 9/78, wing to BAe.; 24/10/78: UK buys 20% of AI, for BAe.
 14/7/78:  Boeing launches 767.
 23/3/79:  Boeing launches 757; BA launch customer, RB211-535 "baseline".

That sequence left no new civil design work for Dassault, McDonnell Douglas Corpn., Short, who had all tried through this time to launch new types in collaboration. Other design teams that had to settle for sub-contract fabrication included Aeritalia, Breguet, Convair (DC-10 fuselage, 747 lower nose), Fokker, Nord Avn, Messerschmitt-Bolkow-Blohm. (ex-HFB/Hamburg, ex-VFW/Bremen) and (ex-Sud Avn./Nantes, St.Nazaire) retained design and fabrication competence.

Relative merit of Proposals was not the decisive factor causing A310/757/767 to prevail. Politics/money were. 2 quotes to illustrate:
Chairman T.Wilson: by ’72 Boeing had “sold c.$20Bn. of commercial airplanes and hadn’t made any money (an) absolute basket case on 737 (great early) difficulties on 747” R.J.Serling,Legend & Legacy,St.Martin’s P.,92,P.385. By 1978 the sole large airliners ever to deliver respectable profit-on-investment had been Viscount, 707, 727, 747.
PM Callaghan visited US to settle UK Aero-industrial policy, 7/78: “Boeing talked down (as if he came from an) underdeveloped country(. MDC’s) ‘concept (was) never really (a) concrete proposition’” J.Newhouse,The Sporty Game,Knopf,82,P208.

Boeing & MDC wanted his Launch Aid money, not the design wit of his rude mechanicals. 15% of 767 structure, declined by Jim, was sourced from each of Aeritalia and (the Japanese consortium), who tooled up...lost very large sums upfront, but came back for more on follow-on programmes. None of the schemes in these posts should be seen as attempts-on-profit. States possessed Aero, which must be employed "in the National Interest".

Others did not read this history. Canada rushed in, built up Bombardier to be 3rd. largest, in recent civil deliveries...and are now reported to be desperate to unload. Russia and China are aiming for their exact RJ segment, which Embraer now near-owns. A re-run, then, of DC-10 v. L.1011, ensuring pain for all. All so odd.

Offline hesham

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Re: Beyond the Mercure - Avions Marcel Dassault-Bréguet Aviation projects......
« Reply #34 on: September 03, 2013, 04:54:23 am »
Hi,


here is the Dassault-Breguet Mercure Model-100 and Model-200.


http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1975/1975%20-%202321.html

Offline Archibald

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Re: Beyond the Mercure - Avions Marcel Dassault-Bréguet Aviation projects......
« Reply #35 on: September 03, 2013, 11:53:58 pm »
Dear Boys and Girls, here some pictures of a large cutaway model of the Avions Marcel Dassault-Bréguet Aviation Mercure 200-1 "project". I don't know where the pictures originate (the internet?), but I think the model is displayed at a museum in Bordeaux (Mérignac?)......


Terry (Caravellarella)

Crap, I think I know that place - and that Mirage wing ! It is my beloved CAEA (see my signature), looks like René Lemaire models. Next door is the library - where I volunteer  ;D   
Conservatoire de l'Air et de l'Espace d'Aquitaine - Bordeaux - Mérignac / Dassault aviation museum
http://www.caea.info/en/plan.php

Offline hesham

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Re: Beyond the Mercure - Avions Marcel Dassault-Bréguet Aviation projects......
« Reply #36 on: September 04, 2013, 02:48:27 am »
My dear Archibald,


are there any more projects in that place ?.

Offline Archibald

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Re: Beyond the Mercure - Avions Marcel Dassault-Bréguet Aviation projects......
« Reply #37 on: September 04, 2013, 07:31:36 am »
Oh, certainly, we have the full and entire collection of Air&Cosmos since 1963, all 2400 of them. Now if only I had a clone of myself digging the collection...  ;)
Conservatoire de l'Air et de l'Espace d'Aquitaine - Bordeaux - Mérignac / Dassault aviation museum
http://www.caea.info/en/plan.php

Offline hesham

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Re: Beyond the Mercure - Avions Marcel Dassault-Bréguet Aviation projects......
« Reply #38 on: September 04, 2013, 08:19:58 am »
Thank you my dear Archibald,


we hope to see some of them.

Offline hesham

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From Jane's All the World's Aircraft 1965-1966,


here is early drawing to Dassault-Breguet Mercure,completely different,it had a
rear mounted engines.

Online Jemiba

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Sure, that it is related to the Mercure ? It rather reminds me on the Mystere 30,
shown here from Aviation Week 1972 1-13.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 08:03:02 am by Jemiba »
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline hesham

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Sure, that it is related to the Mercure ? It rather reminds me on the Mystere 30,
shown here from Aviation Week 1972 1-13.


My dear Jemiba,


may be there is two Mercure.

Offline hesham

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From Jane's All the World's Aircraft 1965-1966,


here is early drawing to Dassault-Breguet Mercure,completely different,it had a
rear mounted engines.


Hi,


I think I can solve this problem,maybe this aircraft was the Dassault Mystere 100.


Flying Review 8/1963

Offline toura

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Hi all

see the"mystere 20" which became"mystere 30"
after change of engines

and the project" mystere 30" which became project mercure
and was change for the Mercure we know

Offline Archibald

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The lone Falcon 30 fuselage is part of the CAEA collections - see my signature for more details...
Conservatoire de l'Air et de l'Espace d'Aquitaine - Bordeaux - Mérignac / Dassault aviation museum
http://www.caea.info/en/plan.php

Offline RAP

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Nice Mercure from a 1969 Aviation Week.

Offline taildragger

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Other than it's general configuration, did the A320 family inherit anything from the Mercure?

Offline Deltafan

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Other than it's general configuration, did the A320 family inherit anything from the Mercure?
AFAIK no.

There was no link between Dassault and Airbus at this time (and even now).

The Mercure was a good plane, but too expansive.

Offline taildragger

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Thanks for the reply.
The link between Dassault and Airbus is the French Treasury.  It invested a lot in both aircraft and it seems to me that someone in the French government could have directed a transfer of IP from Dassault to Airbus if it was thought worthwhile.   

Offline Archibald

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The only (indirect) link between Mercure and A320 I'm aware off is... the CFM-56 turbofan. The French government and Dassault seriously considered a CFM-56 Mercure (circa 1977 or so) but the A320 was prefered, and Dassault got out of the airline market entirely. They have not returned since then, which is hardly surprising, considering that the Mercure failure cost the company an arm and a leg. Only Marcel dassault political lobbying got the French government imposing 10 Mercure to Air Inter (just like Concorde at the same time).
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Offline Archibald

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Re: Beyond the Mercure - Avions Marcel Dassault-Bréguet Aviation projects......
« Reply #50 on: September 23, 2018, 06:45:14 am »
answering to my own post some months later  ;D

Digging into the Flight International archive and other sources, it seems that the Mercure 200 very nearly missed the "A320" train in 1976.

1974 the "group of six" is born: HSA and BAC, Fokker, Aerospatiale and a couple of German companies.
early 1975 Dassault join the team with their Mercure 200: a CFM56 powered Mercure for Air France, with longer range.
Competitors are: BAC 3-11 and Trident. But also Aerospatiale (SNIAS) A-200.

Aerospatiale hates Dassault, notably the Mercure. For good reason: De Gaulle iron-fisted a rule: to Aerospatiale, airliners and helicopters; to Dassault, combat aircrafts.

Yet Aerospatiale tried to seduce Vought for licence-build A-7 Corsair II in Toulouse, they also insisted on trainer (against the Alpha Jet) only to be rebuked by Messmer, Pompidou and other gaullists.
Yet at the same time, Dassault, who had been told NOT to make airliners, screwed Aerospatiale building the Mercure, only to fail miserably.

Meanwhile the CFM56 venture between SNECMA and G.E got a turbofan running by 1974... and no aircraft for it, not before 1979 and the DC-8 / KC-135 re-engining.

On top of that, Aerospatiale is winding down Concorde production, but Airbus A300 is DOA until Frank Borman and Eastern Airlines, in 1978.
so Aerospatiale Toulouse plant is mostly empty.

In the end, on paper, what makes ton of sense is Dassault teaming with Aerospatiale to build a CFM56 powered Mercure - the 200.
That would kill three birds with one stone: the Mercure, the CFM56, and Aerospatiale.

What's more, Aerospatiale is part of the group of six... and Dassault, well aware of all the above, rush to join that group.
By early 1976 - job done. Even the British, even Fokker agree that the Mercure 200 make sense. What's more, that group of seven link to Airbus for a second project that later become... the A310 !

So all boxes are checked: Aerospatiale, group of seven, CFM56, Mercure, Airbus.  By spring 1976, the group of seven is willing to adopt the Mercure 200 and link it to Airbus.

...and there it goes down the drain.

Because Dassault and Aerospatiale hate each others, in summer 1976 Dassault look toward... McDonnell Douglas. Then just to piss them off, Aerospatiale take the absurd step to study the A310 with Boeing!  With the A.200.
What is very damaging is that Dassault went to MDD with full blessing of the French government, and this pissed off the group of seven.

The Dassault - MDD bird, Mercure 200, become the ASMR, only for Douglas to screw Dassault and develop the MD-80 with improved JT-8D.

In 1977 the French government order Dassault to join back the group of six... which now has become J.E.T. Within it, the Aerospatiale A.200 has slowly started to morphe into... the A320.
Dassault nonetheless join J.E.T... only for Aerospatiale to scorn them for six month until they leave the boat. Ding dong, the Mercure is dead, for good.

Now had Dassault and the French government NOT embraced MDD, then the Mercure 200 could have become an early A320. No FBW, for sure, but CFM56 and HUD and stretched variants up to 80 tons, same dimensions and diameter as the A318 / 19 / 20.

what's more, in the group of seven were Fokker and Avro. Later those two developped the F.29, F-70 and F-100 and of course the Bae 146.
And both sunk 20 years later, to eternal regrets.

On top of that, MDD did to Fokker F.29 what they did to the Mercure. They brought back the ASMR, with Fokker, in 1979, and same result. MD-90 this time.

It is amazing how MDD fooled Europe, twice, with a paper aircraft that was killed, both time, for a revamped DC-9.
At least that strategy finally blew into MDD face when the A320 ate the MD-80 series for dinner, in the 90's.

In an ideal world, Fokker would have become Airbus-bis with the F-27 and F-28, the later eventually stretched to link with the Mercure 200. Then, Airbus A310 and A300.
Of course ATR would never exists in the first place (1983) since it would duplicate the Fokker F-27 and F-50.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2018, 09:58:49 am by Archibald »
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Offline Retrofit

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Re: Beyond the Mercure - Avions Marcel Dassault-Bréguet Aviation projects......
« Reply #51 on: September 23, 2018, 07:12:37 am »
answering to my own post some months later  ;D
It is amazing how MDD fooled Europe, twice, with a paper aircraft that was killed, both time, for a revamped DC-9.
At least that strategy finally blew into MDD face when the A320 ate the MD-80 series for dinner, in the 90's.

Years before, Douglas was playing the same game with Sud-Est Aviation "Caravelle" for the DC-9...

Offline Archibald

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Re: Beyond the Mercure - Avions Marcel Dassault-Bréguet Aviation projects......
« Reply #52 on: September 23, 2018, 09:55:47 am »
Yeah, the A320 *avenged* quite a lot of european airliners when you think about it.  ;D   It took a very long time for Europe to learn that no single country could beat Boeing or MDD by itself. L'union fait la force (or: l'oignon fait la farce)
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Offline taildragger

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Re: Beyond the Mercure - Avions Marcel Dassault-Bréguet Aviation projects......
« Reply #53 on: September 23, 2018, 04:17:30 pm »
Missing from Archibald's account above of European maneuvering leading to the A320 is the account in the August 22, 1977 issue of AW&ST (http://archive.aviationweek.com/issue/19770822#!&pid=28) of a proposal to sell 737 development rights to a 4-company consortium (BAC, Aerospatial, MBB and VFW-Fokker).  The proposed airplane (referred to as the 7E7) would have been rewinged and sport CFM56 engines (with refanned JT8D-209s as an option).  Boeing's 737 business would have been wound down.
Fitting the CFM56 under the 737 was quite a trick and the article's confident statement that they would fit, in retrospect, implies that Boeing had already done quite a bit of integration work and would be transferring that, not just development rights.  I don't think anyone would purchase the 737 program on the hope that a large fan engine could be made to fit.
Boeing's willingness to consider selling the 737 program suggests to me that they were skeptical of it's potential and saw development of an all-new airframe as an attractive alternative, especially if the existing business could be converted to cash and 4 potential rivals locked into a geometrically-limited design. 
The world would likely be different had this deal gone through.  Boeing would probably have developed a 737 successor better suited to future stretches, Airbus would be defunct or a shadow of it's current self, and the 7E7 consortium (as a new entrant without Boeing's market power) would probably not have been able to get the same mileage out of the 737. 
 

Offline Archibald

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Re: Beyond the Mercure - Avions Marcel Dassault-Bréguet Aviation projects......
« Reply #54 on: September 23, 2018, 10:42:32 pm »
Sweet jesus. Are you telling me Boeing was to dump the old 737 on the Europeans (with improved engines, admittedly) and then develop a brand new fuselage, same wing / engine, -  to screw them ?

I compared the Mercure 200-1 and 200-2 variants with the A320 family. While the Mercure 100 was too small (less than 60 tons, smaller than the A318) the 200 variants grew to 60 - 75 tons, enough to cover the A318, A319 and A320. Maybe A321 would have been a stretch.

http://www.caea.info/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=248:dassault-mercure-200-1&catid=39&lang=fr

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A319#Specifications
« Last Edit: September 23, 2018, 10:51:15 pm by Archibald »
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Offline taildragger

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Re: Beyond the Mercure - Avions Marcel Dassault-Bréguet Aviation projects......
« Reply #55 on: September 24, 2018, 10:46:29 am »
Sweet jesus. Are you telling me Boeing was to dump the old 737 on the Europeans (with improved engines, admittedly) and then develop a brand new fuselage, same wing / engine, -  to screw them ?

The article doesn't state that Boeing would have developed a successor airframe, but I think it's reasonable to assume that they wouldn't leave that market segment unserved for long.  The whole deal was enmeshed with the process that eventually led to the 757/767 which, at that point, envisioned significant British and/or European involvement.
I wouldn't call the deal a "screwing" though.  The 7E7 consortium weren't children, they were contemplating purchase of a proven program with some development life in it.  The second and third-generation 737s produced by Boeing have had a pretty good run after all.  Unless unlikely guarantees were made, they'd have no reason to expect Boeing to withdraw from the small jetliner business.
I always thought Canadair got the short end of a similar deal though when they purchased a licence to produce the DC-4 (Northstar) just before Douglas launched the DC-6.     

Offline aim9xray

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Re: Beyond the Mercure - Avions Marcel Dassault-Bréguet Aviation projects......
« Reply #56 on: September 24, 2018, 12:32:21 pm »
I always thought Canadair got the short end of a similar deal though when they purchased a licence to produce the DC-4 (Northstar) just before Douglas launched the DC-6.

I don't think so, necessarily. I don't know if the Canadian market could have supported DC-6 airframe size/capability at the time. Also, balance of trade and/or tax issues forced the selection of the RR Merlin engines which probably did not have the power for the DC-6 gross weights.

Offline taildragger

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Re: Beyond the Mercure - Avions Marcel Dassault-Bréguet Aviation projects......
« Reply #57 on: September 25, 2018, 11:49:36 am »
I think that the North Star program was aimed at the British Commonwealth market, not just Canada.  I don't know whether the license allowed development into a larger aircraft, but imagine that the launch of the DC-6 killed the market for new DC-4s or equivalents.  I've read an account of the program (The Canadair North Star by Milberry) which, as I recall, supported this view.  It described the company management as blindsided by the DC-6 program launch and attributed the aircraft's relative lack of commercial success to this unexpected competition.  It's hard to understand why Canadair management wouldn't expect Douglas to launch a post-war successor to a pre-war design and that the successor, even if derived from the DC-4, would be sufficiently changed to merit a new type designation.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 05:58:47 pm by taildragger »