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Author Topic: Sänger II aerospaceplane project  (Read 22725 times)

Offline Meteorit

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Sänger II aerospaceplane project
« on: August 13, 2006, 08:43:41 am »
I've always found the German Sänger 2 project interesting, even if it wasn't technologically very feasible.

The development of the Sänger II began at Deutsche Aerospace in 1985. It was the reference vehicle of the German Hypersonics Program and received most of the domestic funding for spaceplane development. The Sänger II was a two stage to orbit vehicle with a large hypersonic air-breathing first stage and a smaller rocket-powered upper stage. The first stage was designed for maximum commonality with a supersonic passenger transport with a Mach 4.4 cruise range of 11,000 km. The upper stage could be a manned reusable HORUS (Hypersonic Orbital Reusable Upper Stage) or an expendable CARGUS (CARgo Upper Stage) for heavy payloads. Full development could have begun in 2004, but the program was cancelled in 1994 for cost reasons. A single Sänger vehicle would have costed about $ 500 million, total program cost would have been $ 20 billion. Design lifetime was 300-500 flights for Sanger, 100-120 orbital flights for Horus.

Sänger II (EHTV)
Crew: unmanned
Length: 84.5 m
Diameter: 14.0 m
Span: 41.4 m
Gross mass: 249,000 kg
Empty mass: 149,000 kg
Propellant mass: 95,000 kg
Engines: 5 x Co-axial turboramjet
Sea-level thrust: 5 x 300 kN
Propellants: Air/LH2
Burn time: 6,565 s
Hypersonic lift-to-drag ratio: 4.8-5.3
Maximum speed: Mach 6.8

Horus
Crew: 2
Length: 27.6 m
Diameter: 5.5 m
Span: 15.6 m
Gross mass: 96,000 kg
Empty mass: 23,100 kg
Propellant mass: 69,600 kg
Payload: 6,000 kg to LEO; 3,300 kg to space station Freedom with personnel
Engines: 1 x ATCRE (ATC-700)
Vacuum thrust: 1,280 kN
Propellants: Lox/LH2
Burn time: 298 s

Cargus
Crew: unmanned
Length: 32.8 m
Span: 15.6 m
Gross mass: 96,500 kg
Empty mass: 11,500 kg
Propellant mass: 71,000 kg
Payload: 14,000 kg to LEO; 2,500 kg to GEO
Engines: 1 x Ariane 5 engine
Propellants: Lox/LH2

I have seen varying dimensional and performance figures, probably from different stages of the vehicle's evolution. Any feedback or corrections to the above data would be appreciated. Also any pictures besides those at http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/saegerii.htm and those of the Revell model would be nice. IIRC a scale model was constructed and should now be on display somewhere. Any pics of it? Also anything more on the EHTV (European Hypersonic Transportation Vehicle) passenger airplane version of the first stage.

Offline flateric

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Re: Sänger II aerospaceplane project
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2006, 09:29:29 am »
Following is from Dec.1993 AIAA document prepared by MBB so that's probably semi-final drawings and numbers before project went nowhere.
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Offline flateric

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Re: Sänger II aerospaceplane project
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2006, 10:09:45 am »
more
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stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline Matej

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Re: Sänger II aerospaceplane project
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2006, 10:15:31 am »
Partialy nowhere. In the late 90s, program was partialy once again opened under ESA studies FESTIP (Future European Space Transportation Project) funded by EU. Thanx to it some of the proposed technologies were realized and tested. The result was that full development will cost some 15 - 20 mld Euro and that is something what ESA cant paid for.

http://www.hitechweb.genezis.eu/spacefighters5.htm
« Last Edit: July 21, 2008, 05:44:22 am by Matej »

Bizarre aviation expert.

Offline flateric

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Re: Sänger II aerospaceplane project
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2006, 01:35:25 pm »
For reference, here's 1989 Saenger II configuration
« Last Edit: August 13, 2006, 01:39:02 pm by flateric »
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Offline flateric

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Re: Sänger II aerospaceplane project
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2006, 01:40:05 pm »
More on 1989 and 1993 Horus/Cargus
« Last Edit: August 13, 2006, 01:48:09 pm by flateric »
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Offline Meteorit

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Re: Sänger II aerospaceplane project
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2006, 02:14:26 pm »
Thank you flateric, I knew I could trust in you.  :)
I wonder if there are any high-res three views, or cross-section drawings, as I would like to make a 3D model of this project.

Matej,
Actually the FESTIP program almost directly followed Sänger II, and ran from 1994 to 1998. It was then superseded by FLTP (Future Launchers Technologies Programme).

Offline flateric

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Re: Sänger II aerospaceplane project
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2008, 01:34:04 pm »
Comrades, ahoy! Igor Afanasyev calling for your help again...for an upcoming article in Novosti Kosmonavtiki of Saenger II, help needed with promotional graphics/photos/etc (cool pics in one word) of Saenger II that were around in the early 90s.

Please help if you can.
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Offline Michel Van

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Re: Sänger II aerospaceplane project
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2008, 05:09:39 am »
Sänger II had  also like his Grandfather RT-8-01 Raumtransporter
to be launch on hotwater Booster
see Ron Miller book "The dream Machines"
page 608 and 609

there also some drawing of first version of Sänger II on page 608

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Offline mz

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Re: Sänger II aerospaceplane project
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2008, 07:35:08 am »
Crazy design. Typical eighties hubris.

Offline richard

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Sänger's 1991 configuration
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2008, 01:08:26 am »
I never saw a single fin Sänger proposal before

(From Flight 1991)

Offline Michel Van

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Re: Sänger's 1991 configuration
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2008, 02:43:42 am »
year is strange and complet useless

that gigant fin for a Mach 7 aircraft
and how to launch the second stage with out ramming the fin ?
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Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: Sänger's 1991 configuration
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2008, 07:05:50 am »
I never saw a single fin Sänger proposal before

And you still haven't. That's a two-fin booster with the far-side fin either cropped out of the photo or not in place on the model (possibly incomplete or a cutaway model). If you look at the base of the fin, it's clearly offset towards the camera, which was close and had somethign of a wide-angle lens.
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Offline McTodd

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Re: Sänger's 1991 configuration
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2008, 11:45:04 am »
...That's a two-fin booster with the far-side fin either cropped out of the photo or not in place on the model (possibly incomplete or a cutaway model). If you look at the base of the fin, it's clearly offset towards the camera, which was close and had somethign of a wide-angle lens.

I think you're right there - in fact, judging by the way the rear straight edge of the fairing over the booster's engines is angled towards the right, which potentially places the vanishing point roughly mid-way along the 'big' fin, I would say that the port fin is actually present but due to the angle is on the far side of, and thus masked by, the starboard 'big' fin.

BTW, damn fine job with APR V1N5, ta!  ;)
« Last Edit: May 02, 2008, 11:47:04 am by McTodd »

Offline pometablava

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Re: Sänger II aerospaceplane project
« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2008, 03:17:01 pm »
Topics merged

Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: Sänger's 1991 configuration
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2008, 04:41:26 pm »
I would say that the port fin is actually present but due to the angle is on the far side of, and thus masked by, the starboard 'big' fin.

I believe you are correct.
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Offline flateric

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Re: Sänger II aerospaceplane project
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2008, 03:39:31 pm »
Rather naive illustrations from the early Saenger II era (1986) from Flug Revue's de Naharro
Last one is official MBB impression AFAIR
« Last Edit: June 12, 2008, 04:19:28 am by flateric »
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Offline Michel Van

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Re: Sänger II aerospaceplane project
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2008, 08:33:52 pm »
thats very early version from begin 1980s

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Offline Barrington Bond

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Re: Sänger II aerospaceplane project
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2008, 09:57:02 pm »
Thank you for posting them!

Regards,
Barry
"It hasn't squeaked in a week!"

Offline flateric

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Re: Sänger II aerospaceplane project
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2008, 04:21:47 am »
Anyone have good pics of Saenger II 1/10 promotional mockup that MBB build in early 90s?
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Offline flateric

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Re: Sänger II aerospaceplane project
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2008, 04:06:31 am »
Interesting notes found on the web

http://www.optipoint.com/far/far7.htm

Quote
Sänger was a BMFT (German Ministry for Research and Technology) funded study project, which was carried out by then MBB, Munich, to study the concept, materials and thrust unit, and for which MBB received more than 330 million DM (then apprx. 200,000,000 US-$). This was around 1990. A very good popular style article is in GEO 12/91 (the German equivalent of the Ntl. Geographic).

The biggest lobbyist of Sänger was then Mr. Ernst Högenauer (Munich). Mr. Sängers son also lives near Munich (spoke to him once on the phone). MBB has been aquired by DASA. In fact, for technical details, specifications etc. I would write to the DASA, Munich PR office.

With regard to progress, there is none. The project was officially terminated a few years ago, largely, because the estimated 40 Billion DM to build two planes were considered unaffordable, due to environmental objections and because the project outcome in technical terms was far from certain. Because of the way public funding works here, all tools, wind tunnel models etc. had to be kept on hand in case the project would be revived. This period has elapsed last autumn and DASA may have destroyed it. Or they may have given some items to the Technical University TU Munich. Inofficially, some people still try to do some work on Sänger and quietly divert some money, so I was told. But it is no longer an official project for some years now. Personally, I think the decision to terminate was right. Sänger is a brilliant project and should be revived when we have an infrastructure to supply (space stations and bases on Moon and Mars), but it is unsuited to build that infrastructure up.

Personally, I think the decision to terminate was right. Sänger is a brilliant project and should be revived when we have an infrastructure to supply (space stations and bases on Moon and Mars), but it is unsuited to build that infrastructure up.

The person to contact for further information at the TU Munich is Gerd Hofschuster. He presides the space student group, called WARR. They have a web page with a downlink at DLR's page. Mr. Hofschuster is very nice and knows Mr. Sänger, Mr. Högenauer and some people at DASA.

Tom Stinnesbeck
February, 1998



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Offline Barrington Bond

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Re: Sänger II aerospaceplane project
« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2010, 01:03:30 pm »
Spaceflight News October Year ?

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Offline martinbayer

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Re: Sänger II aerospaceplane project
« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2010, 01:41:24 pm »
Spaceflight News really had a knack at getting the facts jumbled up. Both of the shown DFVLR SAENGER TSTO configurations (from this source, if memory serves correctly: http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1987STIA...8824199L) had pure rocket propulsion.

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Offline Barrington Bond

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Re: Sänger II aerospaceplane project
« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2010, 01:51:11 pm »
Can't argue with that ;)

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Offline Triton

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Re: Sänger II aerospaceplane project
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2010, 06:31:41 pm »
Artist's impression of DASA Sänger 2.

Source: http://www.aee.odu.edu/fas.php?id=5
« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 06:33:14 pm by Triton »

Offline flateric

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Re: Sänger II aerospaceplane project
« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2011, 03:50:22 pm »
using recently became available data on project, Vadim Lukashevich and his team are making super-duper Saenger 2/Horus 3D model
textures still due
http://buran.ru/htm/news.htm#01-05-2011


wait for all pics in slideshow to load
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Offline Meteorit

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Re: Sänger II aerospaceplane project
« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2011, 11:47:05 am »
I wonder what this recent data is, as the overall shape of their Horus model looks considerably different than what is shown on this thread or the "Deutsche Raketenflugzeuge und Raumtransporter-Projecte" book for example?
 

Offline flateric

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Re: Sänger II aerospaceplane project
« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2012, 12:59:54 pm »
behold!
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stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline Michel Van

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Re: Sänger II aerospaceplane project
« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2012, 12:55:34 pm »
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Offline PMN1

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Re: Sänger II aerospaceplane project
« Reply #30 on: September 05, 2012, 11:15:46 am »
 From the Astronautix site

In 1994 it was concluded that development would have been very costly, while the design would reduce costs only 10 to 30% below that of the Ariane 5 expendable vehicle. Accordingly the project was cancelled.


Has anyone seen what the report said about why the proposal would produce such little saving over an expendable launcher?
« Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 11:19:12 am by PMN1 »

Offline Michel Van

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Re: Sänger II aerospaceplane project
« Reply #31 on: September 05, 2012, 12:58:33 pm »
From the Astronautix site

In 1994 it was concluded that development would have been very costly, while the design would reduce costs only 10 to 30% below that of the Ariane 5 expendable vehicle. Accordingly the project was cancelled.


Has anyone seen what the report said about why the proposal would produce such little saving over an expendable launcher?

Sänger II "died" official in 1995, it was series of interacting reason what let to cancelation. 

the first: MBB  in 1980 start Sänger II as technology study and NOT as a official program !
1989 MBB became part of DASA (Deutsche Aerospace Aktiengesellschaft later Daimler Benz Aerospace Aktiengesellschaft. today EADS)
Second: the Sänger II concept had unusual success in Aerospace industry, media and german politic scene
because the option: Manned, unmanned space flight and a Mach 7 airliner
what let DASA to declare Sänger II to there "official" program, much to anger of France who work on Hermes space shuttle.
Third: This let to some German French dispute about ESA limited budget use on Hermes or Sänger II
Also let to a strange situation, that French also start study Sänger II like concept by CNES and Dassault!
in Germany Sänger II is study by Universities like RWTH Aachen, who made a feasibility study  on order by DFG (Deutsche Forschungsgemeinschaft)
more here http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4564.0.html
Forth: Sänger II needed technology, what far far away from German level on hypersonic aerospace research.
it's major problem was the Mach 7 engine on first stage.
Fifth: In 1989 to 1991 Germany change completely, with collapse of East Germany and Unification of the two germanys.
Money was needed for Unification process, So Sänger II project came under the budget axe. 
in 1995 Sänger II had not enough budget for Engine test or build a Mach 7 demonstrator aircraft. also study from german Universities show that Sänger II is not cheaper as Ariane 5 launch vehicle, so the Project was terminated.   
« Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 01:01:31 pm by Michel Van »
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Offline PMN1

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Re: Sänger II aerospaceplane project
« Reply #32 on: September 08, 2012, 04:38:27 pm »
Got to make you wonder if the person who decided the costs of a reusable vehicle were only 10 - 30% less than an expendable went on to a position with CNES or the manufacturer of the Vulcain or the P238 SRB's........

Interesting article a few years ago about how the reduced use of SRB's could impact the ability to produce SLBM and ICBM.

Offline Grey Havoc

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Re: Sänger II aerospaceplane project
« Reply #33 on: July 30, 2015, 10:30:32 am »
I've found an interesting 1988 DORNIER POST article on the Sänger concept via an old JPRS Report (PDF pages 8 and 9).
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Offline flateric

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Offline flateric

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Offline flateric

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Re: Sänger II aerospaceplane project
« Reply #36 on: April 12, 2016, 11:24:16 am »
...
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline Barrington Bond

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Re: Sänger II aerospaceplane project
« Reply #37 on: May 08, 2016, 12:23:35 pm »
Dornier Sanger D  :)
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Offline Michel Van

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Re: Sänger II aerospaceplane project
« Reply #38 on: May 09, 2016, 03:40:10 am »
note about picture posted by Barrington Bond

Sänger-D
the D stand for Dornier
while Ä or Umlaut-A is Open-mid front unrounded vowel ae so in english it's Saenger-D

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Offline Jemiba

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Re: Sänger II aerospaceplane project
« Reply #39 on: May 10, 2016, 11:40:47 am »
Taken last Friday during a behind-the scenes tour in the "Militärhistorisches Museum Gatow" (military historical museum Gatow),
ex "Luftwaffenmuseum Gatow", those photos of model in 1 : 8,5 scale, maybe the same as shown in Flateri´cs post here
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,580.msg256280.html#msg256280.
Getting a complete view was almost impossible due to the quite cramped storage in that hangar, sorry.
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...

Offline Hobbes

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Re: Sänger II aerospaceplane project
« Reply #40 on: May 11, 2016, 03:08:06 am »
Interesting. So the top half of the second stage was silver. Does that include the top surface of the wings?

Offline martinbayer

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Re: Sänger II aerospaceplane project
« Reply #41 on: May 11, 2016, 07:00:12 am »
Interesting. So the top half of the second stage was silver. Does that include the top surface of the wings?

Sure, why not: https://www.google.com/search?q=S%C3%A4nger+horus&num=100&lr=&hl=en&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjY9-KKl9LMAhUN2GMKHbT3C1AQ_AUIBygB&biw=1600&bih=1085

Anything's possible with a model.

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Offline Michel Van

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Re: Sänger II aerospaceplane project
« Reply #42 on: May 12, 2016, 04:15:21 am »


Some explanation on that text.

BMFT = Bundesministerium für Bildung und Forschung (Federal Ministry of Education and Research)

Daimler-Benz Aeropspace aka DASA merged with Aérospatiale-Matra and CASA to form EADS in 2000.

MAN = Maschinenfabrik Augsburg-Nürnberg, here there subdivision MAN Technologie

DLR = Deutsche Zentrum für Luft- und Raumfahrt e. V. (German Aerospace Center )

IABG = Industrieanlagen-Betriebsgesellschaft mbH (Analyst and Testing Materials company)

university of
Aachen = Rheinisch-Westfälische Technische Hochschule Aachen (independently feasibility study on MMB Sänger)
Braunschweig = Technische Universität Braunschweig
München = Technische Universität München
Stuttgart = Universität Stuttgart

what exactly the three university, had to do with Sänger i don't know.
Technische Universität München and Universität Stuttgart  have Aerospace department. 
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 04:17:38 am by Michel Van »
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Offline martinbayer

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Re: Sänger II aerospaceplane project
« Reply #43 on: May 12, 2016, 07:38:26 am »
Michel,

thank you for pointing out the "small print". I studied aerospace engineering at Universität Stuttgart and later worked in the space studies departments of IABG, where I briefly had an affiliation with the Sänger II "Förderkonzept Hyperschalltechnologie", as it was officially called, and then MAN Technologie, so this picture is evocative to me.

Martin
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Offline flateric

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Re: Sänger II aerospaceplane project
« Reply #44 on: June 29, 2016, 04:35:22 am »
...
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline flateric

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Re: Sänger II aerospaceplane project
« Reply #45 on: March 18, 2017, 09:05:35 am »
Slightly different photo of Sänger-D
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