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Author Topic: Air-launched missile defence concept  (Read 18468 times)

Online bobbymike

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Re: Air-launched missile defence concept
« Reply #30 on: April 05, 2015, 09:24:17 am »
While I think I either saw this or posted it myself I cannot find it searching the applicable terms so;

American Physical Society Boost Phase Intercept Report from 2003 downloadable at the link

http://www.aps.org/about/pressreleases/boosts2.cfm

Sorry if the report has been previously posted.
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Offline pathology_doc

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Re: Air-launched missile defence concept
« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2015, 08:47:05 am »
They bring up the frustration in the 1991 Gulf War when pilots could see Scuds ascending but had no way to attack them.
.


You'd think SOMEONE would have given it a go with AIM-7, surely? What is it about a slowly-rising, non-stealthy, non-manoeuvring target that's acquired visually which isn't fish-in-a-barrel territory for even a 90's-vintage AAM? Granted, terminal phase is a b*****d with the missile heading downwards and towards you, but boost phase should give you a far less challenging shot.

I guess range at acquisition does come into it - those things could probably be seen a long way off - but I still have to wonder.

Offline sferrin

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Re: Air-launched missile defence concept
« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2015, 08:50:45 am »
Probably being in the right place at the right time to take a shot.
"DARPA Hard"  It ain't what it use to be.

Offline Void

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Re: Air-launched missile defence concept
« Reply #33 on: April 08, 2015, 02:19:05 pm »
They bring up the frustration in the 1991 Gulf War when pilots could see Scuds ascending but had no way to attack them.
.


You'd think SOMEONE would have given it a go with AIM-7, surely? What is it about a slowly-rising, non-stealthy, non-manoeuvring target that's acquired visually which isn't fish-in-a-barrel territory for even a 90's-vintage AAM? Granted, terminal phase is a b*****d with the missile heading downwards and towards you, but boost phase should give you a far less challenging shot.

I guess range at acquisition does come into it - those things could probably be seen a long way off - but I still have to wonder.

It wouldn't be able to catch it.

A scud may look "slow" but it is continuously accelerating in a vertical climb. That takes a LOT more energy than the shallow boast-coast trajectory of an AAM. With a normal proportional navigation guidance law the Sparrow would end up trying to chase the scud vertically to keep a continuous lead angle - almost guaranteed to fail.

A modified guidance law that can anticipate the future acceleration of the Scud and give the interceptor a much larger lead at the beginning of the engagement would help a lot - but that wasn't a feature of AAMs during ODS.

Offline pathology_doc

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Re: Air-launched missile defence concept
« Reply #34 on: April 21, 2015, 09:30:16 am »
Sferrin and Void, I think in combination you've got it right. Void in particular, the parameters are duly noted, with thanks.

Offline marauder2048

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Re: Air-launched missile defence concept
« Reply #35 on: April 25, 2015, 06:40:32 pm »
Void is dead on with his discussion of guidance issues. More below:

The lead author was the guy behind ALHTK/NCADE while at MDA; he was recently interviewed in that LA Times article on MDA.



Offline marauder2048

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Re: Air-launched missile defence concept
« Reply #36 on: November 02, 2017, 02:37:14 pm »
Congressman says F-35s could take down North Koreaís missiles in boost phase
November 02, 2017 |Justin Doubleday


A congressman on the House Armed Services Committee claimed today F-35 Joint Strike Fighters could shoot down North Koreaís ballistic missiles in their boost phase
and faulted the Missile Defense Agency and the Pentagon for failing to come up with a timely solution to Kim Jong Unís nuclear warhead program. Rep. Duncan Hunter
(R-CA) said he has seen analysis from Los Alamos National Laboratories and other research outfits to support his claim that an F-35 could take out a ballistic...

https://insidedefense.com/daily-news/congressman-says-f-35s-could-take-down-north-korea%E2%80%99s-missiles-boost-phase


Offline sferrin

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Re: Air-launched missile defence concept
« Reply #37 on: November 02, 2017, 02:43:09 pm »
Congressman says F-35s could take down North Koreaís missiles in boost phase
November 02, 2017 |Justin Doubleday


A congressman on the House Armed Services Committee claimed today F-35 Joint Strike Fighters could shoot down North Koreaís ballistic missiles in their boost phase
and faulted the Missile Defense Agency and the Pentagon for failing to come up with a timely solution to Kim Jong Unís nuclear warhead program. Rep. Duncan Hunter
(R-CA) said he has seen analysis from Los Alamos National Laboratories and other research outfits to support his claim that an F-35 could take out a ballistic...

https://insidedefense.com/daily-news/congressman-says-f-35s-could-take-down-north-korea%E2%80%99s-missiles-boost-phase

"DARPA Hard"  It ain't what it use to be.

Offline DrRansom

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Re: Air-launched missile defence concept
« Reply #38 on: November 02, 2017, 05:42:31 pm »
Congressman says F-35s could take down North Koreaís missiles in boost phase
November 02, 2017 |Justin Doubleday


A congressman on the House Armed Services Committee claimed today F-35 Joint Strike Fighters could shoot down North Koreaís ballistic missiles in their boost phase
and faulted the Missile Defense Agency and the Pentagon for failing to come up with a timely solution to Kim Jong Unís nuclear warhead program. Rep. Duncan Hunter
(R-CA) said he has seen analysis from Los Alamos National Laboratories and other research outfits to support his claim that an F-35 could take out a ballistic...

https://insidedefense.com/daily-news/congressman-says-f-35s-could-take-down-north-korea%E2%80%99s-missiles-boost-phase

This article sounds like a Representative looking for a cheap technical fix to a long-term strategic problem.

Offline marauder2048

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Re: Air-launched missile defence concept
« Reply #39 on: November 02, 2017, 06:16:50 pm »
This article sounds like a Representative looking for a cheap technical fix to a long-term strategic problem.

Which is funny given the previous administration's view that boost phase interceptors carried by stealthy
aircraft were strategically destabilizing.

I was hoping that since MKV was cancelled and then resurrected as MOKV
that the AWL would be resurrected as AOWL..but alas it's still AWOL.

Offline DrRansom

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Re: Air-launched missile defence concept
« Reply #40 on: November 02, 2017, 06:33:33 pm »
Which is funny given the previous administration's view that boost phase interceptors carried by stealthy
aircraft were strategically destabilizing.

I was hoping that since MKV was cancelled and then resurrected as MOKV
that the AWL would be resurrected as AOWL..but alas it's still AWOL.

The Representative is from another party. In either case, I agree that the potential deployment of boost-phase interceptors by ULO stratospheric UAVs would be potentially massively destabilizing.

But... the best platform for a boost-phase interceptor is a super high-altitude ULO UAV. Not the F-35.

Edit: there is another part of the conversation conspicuously missing here. The Representative, following the line of the DoD and most analysts, has focused on defending against North Korean missiles. There has been very little emphasis on destroying North Korean missiles before they launch.

Imagine if the convseration was not just about defense, but about developing the capability to launch a counter-force attack at a moment's notice.

North Korean can build enough missiles to stress any reasonable missile defense system. (44 GBI rounds, at 4 rounds per target, makes for an easily overwhelmed system.)

Rather than single-mindedly focusing on defense, there should talk about what offensive systems can help.


« Last Edit: November 02, 2017, 07:22:32 pm by DrRansom »

Offline marauder2048

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Re: Air-launched missile defence concept
« Reply #41 on: November 02, 2017, 07:42:58 pm »
There's been lots of discussion about left-of-launch approaches to BMD. If you think BPI is hard...

Not suggesting that the F-35 was the best platform but given the difficulty in locating TELs
you'd want a higher density asset as well as your HALE LO UAV.

More importantly, we really need to crash-course a BPI interceptor; maybe (hopefully) LREW is more than just air dominance.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2017, 07:46:31 pm by marauder2048 »

Offline sferrin

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Re: Air-launched missile defence concept
« Reply #42 on: November 08, 2017, 05:16:46 am »
In either case, I agree that the potential deployment of boost-phase interceptors by ULO stratospheric UAVs would be potentially massively destabilizing.

Wouldn't really be useful against a larger country like Russia or China as they could locate their ICBMs further back and just lob them over these UAVs.
"DARPA Hard"  It ain't what it use to be.

Offline marauder2048

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Re: Air-launched missile defence concept
« Reply #43 on: December 01, 2017, 02:15:05 pm »
Senate authorizers ask appropriators to fund boost-phase missile defense project

December 01, 2017 | Justin Doubleday

Two lawmakers on the Senate Armed Services Committee are urging Senate appropriators to include funding in
their fiscal year 2018 spending bill for a Defense Department project that promises to deliver a boost-phase
missile defense solution in 18 months or less.

In a Dec. 1 letter, Sens. James Inhofe (R-OK) and Dan Sullivan (R-AK) ask top Senate appropriators to designate
$100 million for the "rapid development and deployment of a new kinetic boost phase missile defense
technology" in their FY-18 spending bill. The letter was sent to Senate Appropriations Committee Chairman Thad
Cochran (R-MS) and Ranking Member Dick Durbin (D-IL).

Cochran released his chairman's mark of the FY-18 bill last week. The legislation, which busts mandatory
spending caps by $32 billion, includes $9.3 billion for missile defense.

Inhofe and Sullivan want the appropriators to set aside $100 million for a project known as the High Altitude Long
Endurance Kinetic Boost Phase Intercept, according to their letter. The system would make use of remotely
piloted unmanned vehicles loitering in international airspace at a safe standoff distance over international
waters, the letter states.

"When fielded, this system could detect and engage North Korean missiles in their boost phase and potentially
confine North Korean ICBMs to airspace over (or close to) North Korea -- protecting American families and our
allies," it continues.

They claim the system can be built within 12 to 18 months. The unmanned aerial vehicles and detection
technology already exist, while the missile interceptor would be developed by making "minor technical
modifications of already existing missiles," according to the letter.

The funding for the project was initially identified by DOD as part of a $6 billion supplemental spending request
sent over to Congress last month. The supplemental request included an extra $4 billion for missile defense
and defeat projects.

https://insidedefense.com/insider/senate-authorizers-ask-appropriators-fund-boost-phase-missile-defense-project

Offline marauder2048

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Re: Air-launched missile defence concept
« Reply #44 on: December 11, 2017, 02:32:26 pm »
Northrop Grumman FTX-20 Experiment 2014

Northrop Grummanís Distributed Aperture System demonstrates the ability to detect and track ballistic missile threats
and share the trajectory information across the battlespace via an airborne gateway.