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Author Topic: Is there a place for a "Prototypes" forum here?  (Read 6586 times)

Offline Caravellarella

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Is there a place for a "Prototypes" forum here?
« on: June 06, 2011, 05:08:33 pm »
I wonder if there is a place for a "Prototypes" forum on this website; it would be suitable and useful for those types that made it to the hardware stage, but did not enter production. It might help define what should and should not go into "unbuilt project" fora......

Terry (Caravellarella)

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Offline starviking

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Re: Is there a place for a "Prototypes" forum here?
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2011, 06:10:03 pm »
At first glance it looks like a good idea to me.

Offline sferrin

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Re: Is there a place for a "Prototypes" forum here?
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2011, 07:05:21 pm »
I wouldn't mind a mockups one either. 
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Offline Steve Pace

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Re: Is there a place for a "Prototypes" forum here?
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2011, 07:20:49 pm »
How about Prototypes and Mockups? -SP
« Last Edit: June 06, 2011, 08:39:37 pm by XB-70 Guy »
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Offline Johnbr

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Re: Is there a place for a "Prototypes" forum here?
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2011, 07:55:00 pm »
I would go for that.

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Is there a place for a "Prototypes" forum here?
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2011, 08:54:28 pm »
Splitting can however result in an infinite number of forum sections. There has to be a sensible rationale to separate them.
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Offline Abraham Gubler

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Re: Is there a place for a "Prototypes" forum here?
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2011, 09:21:36 pm »
The forum rules already allow discussion of prototypes:

Quote
The primary purpose of the "Secret Projects" sections of this forum is to document real, but unbuilt, projects. Prototypes that didn't enter series production may also be appropriate at the descretion of the moderators. Aircraft built in series production should generally be discussed in the "Aerospace" section, warships, tanks and other military vehicles in the Military section.
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Online JFC Fuller

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Re: Is there a place for a "Prototypes" forum here?
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2011, 02:00:24 pm »
Whilst we are at it, can we get some clarification, do ongoing projects have anyplace in the secret projects portion of the forum? My reading of the rules says no, it has to have been proposed and then cancelled/rejected to count- unbuilt simply because an ongoing programme has not reached that stage yet seems to fall outside the scope.

Moderators?

Offline robunos

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Re: Is there a place for a "Prototypes" forum here?
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2011, 03:34:34 pm »
Hmmmmm....  I can see problems...

An example, the Brabazon MkI was built, so goes into the 'prototypes' forum.
The MkII wasn't, so goes into the 'postwar projects' forum, whereas I think
they should be kept together, so that the development process can be followed...


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Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Is there a place for a "Prototypes" forum here?
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2011, 07:55:39 pm »
Whilst we are at it, can we get some clarification, do ongoing projects have anyplace in the secret projects portion of the forum? My reading of the rules says no, it has to have been proposed and then cancelled/rejected to count- unbuilt simply because an ongoing programme has not reached that stage yet seems to fall outside the scope.

Moderators?

Yes that is correct. Ongoing programs should be in Aerospace or Military as appropriate.
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Offline Caravellarella

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Re: Is there a place for a "Prototypes" forum here?
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2011, 02:12:32 am »
Splitting can however result in an infinite number of forum sections. There has to be a sensible rationale to separate them.

On 8th September 2008 the existing "propulsion" forum was closed......

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,750.0.html

Then on 17th May 2011 a new "propulsion" forum was started......

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,12696.msg125233.html#msg125233

Were any qualms about a infinite number of fora (new/additional) truly expressed at that point? Would one additional forum for "prototypes" really be so onerous?

Terry (Caravellarella)
Because L'ORÉAL keeps telling me I'm worth it......
I can scarcely contain my indifference......
Maybe it's MAYBELLINE......
Vamp till ready......
RIMMEL; get the London Look......

Offline Caravellarella

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Re: Is there a place for a "Prototypes" forum here?
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2011, 02:20:34 am »
The forum rules already allow discussion of prototypes:

Quote
The primary purpose of the "Secret Projects" sections of this forum is to document real, but unbuilt, projects. Prototypes that didn't enter series production may also be appropriate at the descretion of the moderators. Aircraft built in series production should generally be discussed in the "Aerospace" section, warships, tanks and other military vehicles in the Military section.

Yes, the current rules are there for all to see; but (I believe) they do not make complete sense. The forum for "Postwar Secret Projects" quite clearly states that it is for "unbuilt projects"; so isn't the inclusion of a built/flown/tested prototype a contradiction of that premise?

For example; the topic for the Lockheed AH-56 Cheyenne helicopter:-

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,941.0.html

This topic is a bizarre mix of completed and flying prototypes (and ten of those prototypes were built) with artist's impressions of Lockheed's "projected" derivatives (often only related by virtue of the rigid-rotor sytem) and production versions......

Terry (Caravellarella)
Because L'ORÉAL keeps telling me I'm worth it......
I can scarcely contain my indifference......
Maybe it's MAYBELLINE......
Vamp till ready......
RIMMEL; get the London Look......

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Is there a place for a "Prototypes" forum here?
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2011, 02:36:49 am »
Which goes to show that the distinction between built/unbuilt or projects/service aircraft is artificial at best. One aircraft's career can include many built versions as well as many unbuilt ones (Skyhawk, Mohawk, Hustler come to mind). Separating them doesn't make a lot of sense... And yet I've had to do that distinction in my very directories myself in most cases to be able to correctly manage my files... So it's certainly no easy question!!

Offline Abraham Gubler

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Re: Is there a place for a "Prototypes" forum here?
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2011, 02:48:48 am »
Yes, the current rules are there for all to see; but (I believe) they do not make complete sense. The forum for "Postwar Secret Projects" quite clearly states that it is for "unbuilt projects"; so isn't the inclusion of a built/flown/tested prototype a contradiction of that premise?

What's hard to understand? The rules state prototypes are OK but with moderator discretion. This is obviously to keep the threads to the intent of the forum of unbuilt projects. So an aircraft like AH-56 that had several prototypes build but no production order is OK but a thread about the YF-100 prototype when hundreds of F-100s were built would be inappropriate.

When in doubt revert to the intent of this webpage and community: illuminating those projects in aerospace and defence that never entered mass service so are not as well publicised as others. Splitting this project areas into paper designs and prototypes is a needless complication. Might as well split the forums into: drawings, air tunnel models, mockups, prototypes, etc.
"There is a tendency in our planning to confuse the unfamiliar with the improbable." Thomas Schelling

Offline Caravellarella

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Re: Is there a place for a "Prototypes" forum here?
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2011, 03:13:10 am »
Yes, the current rules are there for all to see; but (I believe) they do not make complete sense. The forum for "Postwar Secret Projects" quite clearly states that it is for "unbuilt projects"; so isn't the inclusion of a built/flown/tested prototype a contradiction of that premise?

What's hard to understand? The rules state prototypes are OK but with moderator discretion.

Semantics! I never claimed a lack of "understanding"; I expressed my own opinion based on my own experience of the current practice in the fora......
Because L'ORÉAL keeps telling me I'm worth it......
I can scarcely contain my indifference......
Maybe it's MAYBELLINE......
Vamp till ready......
RIMMEL; get the London Look......

Offline Triton

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Re: Is there a place for a "Prototypes" forum here?
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2011, 10:50:59 pm »
Is there information that you would like to share on SPF, Terry, that you believe that cannot under the forum rules?

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Is there a place for a "Prototypes" forum here?
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2011, 12:04:02 am »

Yes, the current rules are there for all to see; but (I believe) they do not make complete sense. The forum for "Postwar Secret Projects" quite clearly states that it is for "unbuilt projects"; so isn't the inclusion of a built/flown/tested prototype a contradiction of that premise?

For example; the topic for the Lockheed AH-56 Cheyenne helicopter:-

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,941.0.html

This topic is a bizarre mix of completed and flying prototypes (and ten of those prototypes were built) with artist's impressions of Lockheed's "projected" derivatives (often only related by virtue of the rigid-rotor sytem) and production versions......

Terry (Caravellarella)

Yes, that is correct, that one topic is a mess. Someday I might have the time to separate it into two.

Normally, we manage this pretty well.

In this case, there is room for a topic on competitors to the "AAFSS" competition, another on the AH-56 specifically, and a third on derivatives of the AH-56, all of which are fine right here in the Postwar Secret Projects forum. The important factor is that no AH-56's ever entered service.

"Unbuilt Projects" in my mind comes in two flavours - not built at all, or built only as prototype(s), especially where it is not that well known.

Regarding the old propulsion section, it was closed because not enough people were interested in the topic. I opened it again as it was suggested that some people might be interested in a separate section, and it does work as a topic with clearly defined boundaries. If not enough people use it, it will be closed again.

Its also important to note, as Abe says, the intention of this forum is generally clear enough for everyone else. It excludes things built in series production, or which are intended to be built in series production in the future. Its generally easy to tell if a project was put into production or not.

Anything I, or another moderator, feel is posted in the wrong place will be moved to the correct location. So its not like you need to agonize over which forum or topic a post belongs in. If you object philosophically to a particular topic you can report it - however, we all have lives, and so if its a lot of work to fix and doesn't offend me greatly I might not split it, at least until a day when I'm in need of something to occupy my time.
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Offline Caravellarella

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Re: Is there a place for a "Prototypes" forum here?
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2011, 02:01:25 am »

Yes, the current rules are there for all to see; but (I believe) they do not make complete sense. The forum for "Postwar Secret Projects" quite clearly states that it is for "unbuilt projects"; so isn't the inclusion of a built/flown/tested prototype a contradiction of that premise?

For example; the topic for the Lockheed AH-56 Cheyenne helicopter:-

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,941.0.html

This topic is a bizarre mix of completed and flying prototypes (and ten of those prototypes were built) with artist's impressions of Lockheed's "projected" derivatives (often only related by virtue of the rigid-rotor sytem) and production versions......

Terry (Caravellarella)

Yes, that is correct, that one topic is a mess. Someday I might have the time to separate it into two.

Normally, we manage this pretty well.

In this case, there is room for a topic on competitors to the "AAFSS" competition, another on the AH-56 specifically, and a third on derivatives of the AH-56, all of which are fine right here in the Postwar Secret Projects forum. The important factor is that no AH-56's ever entered service.

"Unbuilt Projects" in my mind comes in two flavours - not built at all, or built only as prototype(s), especially where it is not that well known.

Regarding the old propulsion section, it was closed because not enough people were interested in the topic. I opened it again as it was suggested that some people might be interested in a separate section, and it does work as a topic with clearly defined boundaries. If not enough people use it, it will be closed again.


Its also important to note, as Abe says, the intention of this forum is generally clear enough for everyone else. It excludes things built in series production, or which are intended to be built in series production in the future. Its generally easy to tell if a project was put into production or not.

Anything I, or another moderator, feel is posted in the wrong place will be moved to the correct location.
So its not like you need to agonize over which forum or topic a post belongs in. If you object philosophically to a particular topic you can report it - however, we all have lives, and so if its a lot of work to fix and doesn't offend me greatly I might not split it, at least until a day when I'm in need of something to occupy my time.

It would appear that I am in a minority of one; I hereby withdraw the suggestion of a "Prototypes" forum. It would be pertinent to lock this topic to prevent the expression of any further dissent. I assure you I do not agonize over the location of the material I have posted onto the fora......

Terry (Caravellarella)
Because L'ORÉAL keeps telling me I'm worth it......
I can scarcely contain my indifference......
Maybe it's MAYBELLINE......
Vamp till ready......
RIMMEL; get the London Look......

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Is there a place for a "Prototypes" forum here?
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2011, 02:20:56 am »
No worries - its important to think about this stuff.
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