X-37B Orbital Test Vehicle (OTV)

[Orionblamblam]

You can weaponise an ordinary garden variety of rake - albeit not very well.

Tell that to Sideshow Bob.

I thought hippies were supposed to be naive little flakes who couldn't see the imminent threat of a weaponised Russkie Buran

It's an odd quirk in psychology. The weapons aimed *away* from them they could see. The weapons aimed *at* them they could not.

 

[joncarrfarrelly]

And for that matter, how many could fit in a Volkswagen Microbus? Clearly, anyone driving a hippiemobile is out to destroy the world!!!

Hmm, isn't that the Volkswaffe Type 2?

 

[mz]

Remember the AW&ST cover with warheads on a venture star? (I don't think it was an X-33 as that had roughly the capability of a V-2...)

I don't really know the use compared to an ICBM.
Maybe some political use as conventional warheads that still need to do a swift steep re-entry.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Maybe some political use as conventional warheads that still need to do a swift steep re-entry.

You'd still be better off just putting them on a smaller missile. The advantage of the X-37 is that it can bring back its payload, so long as its carrying the payload internally. Very few weapons-carrying applications, apart from ASAT, really present themselves as sensible for the X-37.

 

[Avimimus]

Perhaps it is simply the ghost of Urugan speaking (small, winged and reusable platform, capable of launch along any orbit and able to carry four warheads). I think the fundamentally frightening thing is that any sufficiently large satellite could conceal a small warhead with enough fuel to decelerate it onto a target.

Not to mention the invention of ICBMs - talk about the stuff of nightmares.

You can weaponise an ordinary garden variety of rake - albeit not very well.

Tell that to Sideshow Bob.

Astute - My point

I thought hippies were supposed to be naive little flakes who couldn't see the imminent threat of a weaponised Russkie Buran

It's an odd quirk in psychology. The weapons aimed *away* from them they could see. The weapons aimed *at* them they could not.

Nice people...

But the discussion is of the X-37B - the "rake" - not some 40-years-in-the-future derivative.

Good point. I yield. Although, I figure it would be closer to 14 years.

 

[Orionblamblam]

I think the fundamentally frightening thing is that any sufficiently large satellite could conceal a small warhead with enough fuel to decelerate it onto a target.

A FOB system is not particularly spooky. Nobody could orbit enough nukes secretly to make a first-strike system so effective that they'd be assured of not getting pasted in response. And such a system with only a few orbital nukes would assure that the launching nation could be tracked back... and they'd get pasted.

If you *must* be frightened about something, forget rocket delivery systems, and worry about cargo ships and trucks. Those stand a chance of nuking someone without getting a nuke up the ass in response... which jacks up the likelyhood of such nukes actually getting used. If Chechen separatists/terrorists/whackjobs/jihadis set off an Iranian nuke in downtown Moscow or Al Queda sets off a former Soviet nuke in the East River or 4chan sets off a stolen French nuke outside Scientology Headquarters (they'd do it for the lulz), how do you know who to nuke in response? And if a major power gets nuked and *doesn't* nuke somebody back, they have just pinned a giant "kick me" sign on themselves.

 

[quellish]

If Chechen separatists/terrorists/whackjobs/jihadis set off an Iranian nuke in downtown Moscow or Al Queda sets off a former Soviet nuke in the East River or 4chan sets off a stolen French nuke outside Scientology Headquarters (they'd do it for the lulz), how do you know who to nuke in response? And if a major power gets nuked and *doesn't* nuke somebody back, they have just pinned a giant "kick me" sign on themselves.

Well, that question has several sides. The forensics is pretty straightforward, and there is some information on that in the public domain. The policy side is always evolving, but the standing orders are to respond to WMD with WMD.

BUT, these things don't really have anything to do with X-37B. As far as images of the SMV with CAVs, those were going around quite a bit in the late 90s as SMV, SOV, and CAV were all part of the military spaceplane system. SMV evolved into X-37B, CAV evolved into part of FALCON, and SOV was a bit of a dead end. At different points you probably saw the various X-33 competitors pictured as SOV. The new "Pathfinder" program may as well be SOV.

Interestingly enough, DC-X was started by SDIO as a demonstrator of a reusable BMD target launching first stage. It wouldn't surprise me if conventional strike was on someone's mind even back then.

 

[robunos]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article7106714.ece


cheers,
Robin.

 

[LowObservable]

I was not trying to suggest that an X-37-type vehicle would be armed - but making the point that it had been considered.

Byeman - I was suggesting those missions based on the fact that an X-37-type vehicle has agility and cross-range that a satellite doesn't and could be pre-positioned on orbit. You could design a satellite to do the same thing, but it would exhaust its fuel after a few maneuvers and then die.

What's interesting is what you do with this exact set of capabilities: on orbit maneuver (because you are not expending lifetime as you use fuel); cross-range for landing (which in theory gives you a once-around mission option); and a flexible payload bay. It's also very responsive if it's parked on orbit, not so much if it's in a hangar.

Just to make things interesting, since the concept was invented the goalposts have moved, because the electronics revolution and the advent of launchers like Falcon 1 should make simple satellites less expensive - so the payoff for recovering a payload is less than it used to be.

If you just want to throw something into orbit this is a very costly way to do it. Even if you want something that has lots of maneuvering energy and is recoverable, you could have a parachute-recoverable blunt body attached to a big fuel tank.

A cynic might suggest that the reason that the AF is so coy about the mission is that they are not sure what it is.

 

[Byeman]

Byeman - I was suggesting those missions based on the fact that an X-37-type vehicle has agility and cross-range that a satellite doesn't and could be pre-positioned on orbit. You could design a satellite to do the same thing, but it would exhaust its fuel after a few maneuvers and then die.

What's interesting is what you do with this exact set of capabilities: on orbit maneuver (because you are not expending lifetime as you use fuel); cross-range for landing (which in theory gives you a once-around mission option); and a flexible payload bay. It's also very responsive if it's parked on orbit, not so much if it's in a hangar.

agility and cross-range? Those only exist during landing and not during onorbit ops for this vehicle. The aerosurfaces are for landing and not for plane changes (high hypersonic L/D is needed for that). So this vehicle while onorbit is no different than any other spacecraft.

So actually, it is not responsive if it's parked on orbit, it has limited coverage because it is limited in changing its orbit by the prop on board just like every other spacecraft.

Also, this vehicle needs the payload bay open for solar array and radiator deployment. Hence, no dips into the atmosphere.

 

[sferrin]

It's actually LESS responsive in orbit as it has to drag around the airframe that a conventional satellite would not.

 

[mz]

Yeah... you need to tie the "bring stuff back down intact" need to any planned use to somehow make it worth it to use an X-37 for it.

Maybe you want to be able to decommission weapons in orbit? Then, can't you just re-enter a nuke to an ocean range without priming it?


Maybe it's just short term imaging sats etc. You put one payload in the bay, launch it to a nice orbit, then operate a couple of weeks and bring it back. The problems with launching something that big on such a short notice are huge though. Better just have mothballed Pegasus / Minotaur launchable expendable small sats.

 

[bazz]

Hi guys I know I have hardly posted so here goes with flame suit on.

Could this be a space tug for repositioning satelites? I am just thinking that after a while the satelites fuel would run out and would die. This little chap could go up meet the satelite resupply and change orbit if necessary. Return to earth wash and repeat.

What do you guys think, it could be cheaper than replacing satelites and help reduce the problem of space junk?

 

[flateric]

continuing to dig through old pdfs

 

[sferrin]

continuing to dig through old pdfs

What does a return vehicle get you though, particularly since it wouldn't be able to bring the warheads back?

 

[flateric]

too complicated question for Sunday's night, Scott))

 

[Sundog]

According to Aviation Week, they will be able to "test" satellite systems with the X-37B, before they spend all of that money on the satellites themselves and launch them into space only to find out their assumptions were wrong. Of course, in and of itself it can be a small, limited fast reaction recon vehicle. I would also assume it can launch micro-satellites. Of course, it can probably also deploy small stealthy satellites for "investigating" other satellites? Or do those type of satellites have to be larger due to propellant requirements?

 

[robunos]

According to Aviation Week, they will be able to "test" satellite systems with the X-37B, before they spend all of that money on the satellites themselves and launch them into space only to find out their assumptions were wrong.

Ironically, I think this would be ideal for space science missions.
Build your detector(s), launch on the X-37B,fly a short duration mission,
return the equipment, refine as necessary, and refly.
Or for infra-red observatories, where usually once the cryogen is
exhausted the mission ends. With an X-37b type mission, the payload
can be returned for cryogen 'refuelling'.
Or, should something fail, the mission can be returned, repaired, and
reflown. I'm thinking of the WIRE satellite, for example.

Then again, with a military payload, an approaching enemy 'killer' or
inspection system is detected, or even an ASAT launch.
Could the X-37B be immediately de-orbited, before anything
detrimental happens...


cheers,
Robin.

 

[quellish]

Ironically, I think this would be ideal for space science missions.
Build your detector(s), launch on the X-37B,fly a short duration mission,
return the equipment, refine as necessary, and refly.
Or for infra-red observatories, where usually once the cryogen is
exhausted the mission ends. With an X-37b type mission, the payload
can be returned for cryogen 'refuelling'.
Or, should something fail, the mission can be returned, repaired, and
reflown. I'm thinking of the WIRE satellite, for example.

Then again, with a military payload, an approaching enemy 'killer' or
inspection system is detected, or even an ASAT launch.
Could the X-37B be immediately de-orbited, before anything
detrimental happens...


cheers,
Robin.

It's being advertised publically as a test platform for flying experiments. DoD has the Space Test Program, which is an inter-service program for flying small experiments as piggybacks on other missions, etc. DoD's specs for potential customers are more or less in sync with the advertised mass and duration of an X-37B flight.
A lot of satellite mission failures happen in the satellite bus, having the X-37 as the primary "bus" may help with risk reduction for low mass, high payoff experiments. And if there is a failure, it can be reflown.

That said, you still need an experiment manifest that is worth $180m or whatever per flight. And it still does not justify the rapid turnaround. The number of possible experiments that are *that* high payoff to justify the cost and the number of potential reflights is limited.
Two things that would be potentially that high payoff and require a lot of reflights to get right would be tethers and deployable large mirrors (not deployable large antennas, that has been solved). Large mirrors are a hard one to solve, but there shouldn't be a high priority requirement to develop them - if anything current generation mirrors end up giving you data overload. Maybe a deployable mirror would allow you to launch something equivalent to a -11 on a smaller booster with current technology if it could be refueled autonomously, who knows. Fuel was a large part of That Other One's mass.

 

[LowObservable]

Byeman -

When it was first talked about in public, as the Space Maneuver Vehicle, the idea was that it was agile on orbit because you could afford to burn through the fuel - when it was done you recovered it. I realize that it doesn't have a TAV-like atmospheric plane-change mode.

Now, it might be a good platform for experimental space sensors or whatever, because if they did not work you could recover them and find out why.

 

[Byeman]

Byeman -

When it was first talked about in public, as the Space Maneuver Vehicle, the idea was that it was agile on orbit because you could afford to burn through the fuel -

Which any spacecraft can do.

 

[quellish]

Which any spacecraft can do.

Some can do it more than others. X-37B, before the propulsion system was changed, could go to GEO and back. Now it can't.

 

[LowObservable]

Byeman - Yes, "which any spacecraft can do" - but then "any spacecraft" is dead, while the X-37B could be recovered.

And (just to make things more complicated) I don't think it was always considered as something that would always have to ride a big expensive rocket.

 

[mz]

Perhaps the RV carrying use ties into the "backbringing capability".

It's less of a commitment than putting permanent RV:s ("space nukes") up there. You can put it on alert for a while if there's a crisis and then bring it down afterwards. Also, you can use it to threaten. A threat is useful if you have the power to pull it back.

Just musing.

 

[Byeman]

Which any spacecraft can do.

Some can do it more than others. X-37B, before the propulsion system was changed, could go to GEO and back. Now it can't.

It never had that capability. The current propulsion system has higher ISP.

 

[Byeman]

1. Byeman - Yes, "which any spacecraft can do" - but then "any spacecraft" is dead, while the X-37B could be recovered.

2. And (just to make things more complicated) I don't think it was always considered as something that would always have to ride a big expensive rocket.

1. No, for a give prop load, a standard spacecraft could do more. X-37 has to keep enough for deorbit.

2. That was the only thing is was considered for. Actually, it was designed to be carried to orbit by the shuttle. It is a NASA design and not USAF design. The USAF just took over the program from NASA. It is an X plane and not a prototype.

 

[quellish]

It never had that capability. The current propulsion system has higher ISP.

The current propulsion system is also heavier, and carries less propellant. The original propulsion system allowed a delta-v of 3-4km/s. Within the limits of propellant, etc. its ability to change inclination was limited to 20-25 degrees, though it had plenty of delta-v to make it to GEO and back, and deorbit.

X-37 started out life as ReFLY, a Rockwell design. The ReFLY design was the reference design for the SMV missions being defined at the time. AFRL funded development of ReFLY into X-40, which was managed by USAF. X-40 was always intended to be subscale, with the full sized vehicle being placed in orbit by the space shuttle. In 1998 AFRL funded the initial work on the full size vehicle, with the NASA Future-X program running in parallel. ReFLY/X-40/X-37 was chosen as a Future-X design and NASA ran with the program for several years. The X-37 approach and landing tests were part of NASA's effort to reduce the technical risk of the program.

 

[Byeman]

The current propulsion system is also heavier, and carries less propellant. The original propulsion system allowed a delta-v of 3-4km/s. Within the limits of propellant, etc. its ability to change inclination was limited to 20-25 degrees, though it had plenty of delta-v to make it to GEO and back, and deorbit.

It never had that capability in any form of a X-37/40. Even with the payload bay fill with propellant, it couldn't come close to GTO.

 

[Catalytic]

Earlier OrionBlam described the X37B as "a reusable payload shroud" which is an interesting idea....

Is it possible that this X-plane (not a prototype, point taken!) could be used not only for space systems development but also it could be used periodically to covertly deploy small stealthy satelites without resorting to the "debris cloud deception" that was used to mask the launch of MISTY?

Whilst watchers would know the X37B was up there, they would not know what it was up to and even if they assumed every flight was a deployment mission, 270 days is quite a large envelope to deconvalute and predict possible satelite trajectories

I'll leave others to speculate the purpose of said hypothetical stealthy satelites..... just what was the mass of a brilliant pebble :-X (joking)

 

[Sundog]

What about satellite refueling? I realize a satellite would have to be designed for it, but could the US be developing a system that allows spysats to be refueled in orbit to increase their operational capability and the life of the satellite? I've never really looked into that I was just curious if a vehicle like this could be used to refuel other satellites orbital control thrusters?

 

[Byeman]

Is it possible that this X-plane (not a prototype, point taken!) could be used not only for space systems development but also it could be used periodically to covertly deploy small stealthy satelites w

What deployed MISTY?

 

[quellish]

What deployed MISTY?

AFP-731 used the Stabilized Payload Deployment System, USA-144 used an NRL developed widget and Titan adapter.

 

[Byeman]

What deployed MISTY?

AFP-731 used the Stabilized Payload Deployment System, USA-144 used an NRL developed widget and Titan adapter.

I meant the shuttle deployed MISTY and it wasn't hidden, hence any spacecraft deployed from a X-37 derivative wouldn't be hidden.

Also, there is no connection with the NRL with USA-144 and/or TPA.

 

[Catalytic]

What deployed MISTY?

I meant the shuttle deployed MISTY and it wasn't hidden, hence any spacecraft deployed from a X-37 derivative wouldn't be hidden.
[/quote]

Byeman, judging by your choice of name i'm certain you know know more about this matter than I.

"ZIRCONIC is a security channel behind the traditional BYEMAN compartments which reportedly contains stealth satellite programs such as MISTY (AFP-731) and PROWLER. NEBULA is the program name covering work on the general concept and technology of stealthy satellites."

But if you'll indulge the spaculation? you are correct that the shuttle was used and really, that's my point!

Dedicated DOD Shuttle missions were difficult to hide, as evidenced by our knowledge of misty. Clearly someone was observing and the relevent alphabet groups were smart enough to anticipate this would happen and arrange a diversion ie. a simultaneous "stealth mode activation" and the generation of a debris field in order to make it appear that a disastrous failure had occured (this is clearly an unsustainable tactic)

If DOD has its own space plane, every mission is a military one...... If the space plane has a long loiter time and a significant maneuvering capability, an observers tracking demands are greatly increased..... If a new generation of small* satelites that are stealthy "straight out of the payload bay" existed??? Obviously this is all speculation on my part, still it might be a good outcome for a craft that nobody was really that interested in.

*to be clear misty was a beast, I'm certainly not suggesting that the X37B could be used to launch one of those buggers.

Building on Sundog's idea, any payload on the X37 is small, consequently any hypothetical small stealth satellite would have a significantly reduced capability, at least in terms of fuel supply and may require "lifetime expansion" via refueling or bringing home to fill up (might as well take a new one up when going to pick up the old one?)

Or maybe it's a PGS orbital sniper (how long would a 500 pounder take to fall from this crafts altitude)

Most likely though, it's a fairly mundane X-Plane

 

[quellish]

I meant the shuttle deployed MISTY and it wasn't hidden, hence any spacecraft deployed from a X-37 derivative wouldn't be hidden.

Also, there is no connection with the NRL with USA-144 and/or TPA.

Sorry, I can see how my post could be misinterpreted. I was not saying there was a connection between NRL and the Titan payload adapter. NRL was originally responsible for the genesis of another component used in the deployment of 144. Most of this component was delivered by Lockheed. IE it started out life as an NRL design.

 

[flateric]

I wonder if anyone had seen hi-rez of this photo...

 

[Byeman]

Sorry, I can see how my post could be misinterpreted. I was not saying there was a connection between NRL and the Titan payload adapter. NRL was originally responsible for the genesis of another component used in the deployment of 144. Most of this component was delivered by Lockheed. IE it started out life as an NRL design.

There is no connection with the NRL and the mission.
The NRL TLD has nothing do with this mission either.

 

[seruriermarshal]

I wonder if anyone had seen hi-rez of this photo...

here

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=21122.270

 

[dannydale]

I wonder if anyone had seen hi-rez of this photo...

here

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=21122.270

Looky what I found!

 

[Ian33]

this pic